"Realistically I think we need to use oil & gas because":

America is a hybrid of socialism and capitalism as pretty much everywhere is. The idea that socialism is a failure is a simplistic lie. All those places u want to call a socialistic failure were dictatorships or something else. What examples of socialism’s failure do u have? Or we could talk about some northern eu countries that are more socialistic and shown to generally have a better standard of living for its citizens. The only place I think of when I think of pure capitalism is India. U can starve to death and the government will let u.

When the spectrum of income wasn’t near the extremes it is now, were we less competitive or something? I thought the american tax structure under Eisenhower was pretty great. They weren’t saying it was unamerican or socialism then. That fear surfaced later, then it was batted down, and then the fear was reformed by the right wing and it’s meme feed all over now.

https://www.statista.com/chart/16782/historic-marginal-income-tax-rates/

In my opinion Chalo wins this debate. And it's not because of his superior intellect or what he says here. He wins because of his life choice of not having any kids. We can argue about this until hell freezes over and it won't change the fact that if you put too many rats in a cage they will start eating each other.

It will be the smarter ones that figure this out first which will lead to the dumbing down of the population, which is never good for a species survival. This is already happening. Just look at who is getting elected these days...

The tree huggers don't have the answer, all they are currently doing is delaying the inevitable. The only correct answer is less people. Our replacement rate needs to be less than one to one to have even a chance for Homo S. to make it through this planetary crisis.

ebuilder said:

On the population reduction front, its happening for many reasons.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY4Wahyo5n0

And treehuggers, they couldn't understand the laws of thermodynamics with an infusion of 30 IQ pts.

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posting conspiracy junk knocks you down 60 IQ points

https://www.indiaspeaksdaily.com/remember-the-deagel-population-forecast-it-now-makes-total-sense/

Not what I said. I didn’t post any conspiracies. Do u believe the planet has been warming mainly due to humans?

“Scientists are divided” about if global warming is mainly cause by humans, yea, but like 97% agree.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_consensus_on_climate_change#Consensus_points

Considering how many conspiracy goofs are around the days (looking at u) I will stay with the large large majority.

I can’t find what percent believe the world is flat

ebuilder said:

First, you probably don't know about FMVSS...HIC etc, but Grandma wouldn't survive in her 1000 lb Tesla in a hard frontal or side impact crash. There goes Grandma and we all love Grandma.

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Grammy will be fine driving past her age of competency in a 1000 lb vehicle, if all the other personal vehicles are 1000 lbs or less (no exceptions for rich people, and no rich people because we're prioritizing for life quality instead of consumption), and all the heavier road going commercial vehicles are restricted by hardware to under 20 mph. That's what I'm talking about.

Socialism as practiced by the Soviets was a failed experiment, but we have thriving socialist countries today with much happier populations than ours. "Communism with Chinese characteristics" (basically capitalism with central economic planning) seems to be kicking our ass in other ways.

American capitalism is proving to be a failed experiment.

Hummina Shadeeba said:

We know we are altering the atmosphere content and it is causing global warming. We see the results.

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NO !….you do not “know” we are altering the atmosphere….you are being TOLD that so frequently that now you believe it !
You have not personally measured the anthropogenic contribution to changes in the atmosphere , you have simply accepted what others have told you. And those results you see,…again you are being TOLD are caused by human contributions, when thy can equally be explained by other causes.
You have allowed yourself to be indoctrinated into the cult of anti science !

Chalo said:

Grossly overweight and overpowered personal cars, whatever power source they run on, are a problem that must end unless the goal is to kill us all. An actual genius would understand and acknowledge this.

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You are irrationally paranoid about vehicles killing everybody !
That is the reasoning of an unstable mind…
…..and you do not have to be an “actual genius” to realise that !

☝ ebuilder,
"As to Capitalism. It is a failed experiment for you. Not for me. I have prospered. Survival of the fittest."

I also was one of the lucky ones, but that doesn't mean my way is the only way or that my way is best for humanity. Sometimes you have to step back in order to see the forest through the trees.

I don't think it's wise to belittle those less fortunate, as trump has demonstrated, because they can easily rise up and with their $99 3D machine printed ghost guns and shoot grandma.

I firmly believe that's the only reason the USA is allowing liberalizing the cannabis laws. Now you can add 'stoned' to the expression," Keep them barefoot, pregnant and...

Yep, people in some other countries are truly frocked. But before we start trying to make them in our mirror image don't you think it would be wise to fix our problems first?

ebuilder said:

Hummina Shadeeba said:

“Scientists are divided” about if global warming is mainly cause by humans, yea, but like 97% agree.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_consensus_on_climate_change#Consensus_points

Considering how many conspiracy goofs are around the days (looking at u) I will stay with the large large majority.

I can’t find what percent believe the world is flat

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Here's the good news for society. You can't manifest any needless change, aka you are irrelevant as I explained which went over your head.

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u disagree that global warming is being largely caused by humans? It’s a simple question hoping for a simple answer. The large majority of scientist believe we are not irrelevant.

Hillhater said:

Hummina Shadeeba said:

We know we are altering the atmosphere content and it is causing global warming. We see the results.

Click to expand...

NO !….you do not “know” we are altering the atmosphere….you are being TOLD that so frequently that now you believe it !
You have not personally measured the anthropogenic contribution to changes in the atmosphere , you have simply accepted what others have told you. And those results you see,…again you are being TOLD are caused by human contributions, when thy can equally be explained by other causes.
You have allowed yourself to be indoctrinated into the cult of anti science !

Click to expand...

So u don’t trust what 97% of those who do know what they’re talking about say? Do u believe it’s a conspiracy and they’re all in on it? THEY ARE scientists. To not agree with them would be the anti-science.

Global warming“equally explained by other causes”? Let’s see it. Post the science right here. I wait for u. Not your mouth yapping and just the science please.

Hummina Shadeeba said:

So u don’t trust what 97% of those who do know what they’re talking about say?
……

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Ha !.. the mention of that 97% tells me more about your understanding of the subject than you can imagine !
Do you actually know where that 97% figure came from ?..
.. or how many “climate scientists” it actually represents ?
Check it out before you dig yourself deeper in a hole .

Global warming“equally explained by other causes”? Let’s see it. .

Click to expand...

Here is a starter for you to ponder…
The earth is in an “interglacial” period. IE , still emerging from the last ice age !…
…..what might that mean ?

And I still wait for ur evidence



97% seems to be an exaggeration.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/uhenergy/2016/12/14/fact-checking-the-97-consensus-on-anthropogenic-climate-change/amp/

Does this mean global warming isnt caused by humans? Dying to see the evidence. Why won’t u post any?

I did ..
But did you even think about it ?

Hillhater said:

I did ..
But did you even think about it ?

Click to expand...

I looked back through the thread and don’t see any evidence posted. Did I miss it? Can u post it again?

“In summary, scientists are at a loss to predict whether climate will warm or cool off like it did back in the time of the first or 4th ice age or when the 'next' ice age will occur.”

This isn’t true and we know the earth is warming. The milankovich cycles have accurately predicted the climate cycles for millions of years in the past and only need a further explanation related to the last 100,000 years.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/100,000-year_problem



Regardless of if u accept the widely accepted models of the past the very recent past heat increase is very much so understood to be caused by increased greenhouse gases and we are forecast to stall (forever?) the next ice age as carbon dioxide levels rise.


There’s no question as to if the temp is increasing or not. It is. The question is how important you think it is to keep co2 levels low to avert possibly going over a tipping point
https://phys.org/news/2022-04-world-perilously-irreversible-climate-scientists.html


These aren’t my thoughts and feelings. This is the widespread understanding of those that actually study this. You’re not one of those people and neither am I. We are both gathering info we find. You haven’t posted any evidence showing the commonly held and scientifically supported understandings are wrong.

It comes down to if u believe the science or not, and if I do believe then it comes down to if u care enough to bother making the concessions needed to set us on a safer path. It looks like you trust the scientific understanding but don’t believe it’s possible to avert the dire predictions because it would be too hard to make a switch to elec for the world or too polluting still.

Yea no point talking further and your almost-rocket-scientist degree has launched you into an orbit beyond where I want to venture. You’re in the belt where conspiracy goof YouTube videos circle.

ebuilder said:

1. To exist is to pollute.

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Yes, but lifestyle and economic system have radically more effect than existing vs. not existing. The average Nepalese person has 1/50 the resource footprint of the average gringo. If you live like a callously indifferent swine-- driving a pickup truck 20 miles each way from a huge poorly built new house to a refrigerated corporate office, crapping out way too many kids, flying all over the place, buying useless stuff for entertainment-- then you're a wastrel and the world would be much better off without you and your piglets.

Realistically you need oil because fabric, lubricants, paints, pesticides, rope, asphalt, drugs, plastics etc are made from it.

Realistically you do not need oil for ground transportation.

Given how important it is, it would be wise to not burn it all up as fast as we can.

ebuilder said:

1. To exist is to pollute. Everybody has a carbon footprint.

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Yes. This can be large or small. If it is small enough on average, CO2 levels stop rising.

2. Carbon emissions are a percentage of the greenhouse gases. See pie chart below. Only 14% of green house gases is transporation. This is why converting to electric automobiles which is only a subset of that is a boondoggle.

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That's like saying that getting in shape and eating better is a fitness industry boondoggle because you will die someday.

EVs are one part of the solution. There are, of course, others.

3. Converting more to solar and wind generated energy, weening off fossil fuel will only make a 'very small dent' in global warming at a huge commercial cost for implementation.

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Wind and solar are far cheaper than coal or nuclear.

4. It is technically and economically infeasible to transition to 'so named' green energy aka no. 3 above, precipitously. This would bankrupt the world.

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Agreed. So do it over a few decades rather than precipitously.

5. What we need is an 'implementable' energy policy...speaking of America. We don't have one.

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Given that we are in fact switching to renewables that is false.

6. America is not the biggest polluter. With all our industry, America only accounts for 15% of the carbon footprint.

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Agreed. The only entity we can fix is ourselves. As we prove out the technology on a large scale, China will follow - as it always has.

7. Above are some basic facts. Implementing green policies will have little effect. That is not to say, they shouldn't be implemented but there has to be a 'global' energy policy.

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Since we do not have a world emperor (or even a strong world government) that is unrealistic. What we do have is an assortment of agreements which are starting to have an effect. The Kyoto Protocol is an example of such an agreement.

a. Scientists can't predict accurately enough the position of planets within our solar system into the future

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That's like saying scientists can't accurately measure the length of anything. Which is technically true, but so pedantic as to be a useless statement.

In summary, scientists are at a loss to predict whether climate will warm or cool off like it did back in the time of the first or 4th ice age or when the 'next' ice age will occur.

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No, they are not.

They have created theories to explain how the climate will warm. They then constructed models to see how much it will warm. They then tested the models by making predictions and seeing if those predictions were accurate. They have been. Thus they have validated their theories.

This is how science works.

Chalo said:

…..The average Nepalese person has 1/50 the resource footprint of the average gringo. If you live like a callously indifferent swine-- driving a pickup truck 20 miles each way from a huge poorly built new house to a refrigerated corporate office, crapping out way too many kids, flying all over the place, buying useless stuff for entertainment-- then you're a wastrel and the world would be much better off without you and your piglets.

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I think you would be much more content if you moved to Nepal and lived their lifestyle !….
… but just maybe… you prefer to stay put and benefit from some of those advantages that advanced society, cheap transport, and fossil fuels, ..give you ?

JackFlorey said:

ebuilder said:

1. To exist is to pollute. Everybody has a carbon footprint.

Click to expand...

Yes. This can be large or small. If it is small enough on average, CO2 levels stop rising.

Click to expand...

Thats just theory,..
.. in practice,..the worldwide covid shutdown, dramatically reducing travel and industry, beyond any level you could practically tolerate permantly,.didnt even register a minor blip on the rate of CO2 increase !

JackFlorey said:

In summary, scientists are at a loss to predict whether climate will warm or cool off like it did back in the time of the first or 4th ice age or when the 'next' ice age will occur.

Click to expand...

No, they are not.
They have created theories to explain how the climate will warm. They then constructed models to see how much it will warm. They then tested the models by making predictions and seeing if those predictions were accurate. They have been. Thus they have validated their theories.

This is how science works

Click to expand...

And that is how theories are disproven !
All the climate predictions have been wildly INACCURATE, predicting much bigger increases than any that have actually been recorded ( even allowing for the “adjustments” made to raw temp data !) and even after multiple revisions of the models .

Remember, No blatant insults allowed.

If you can't agree to disagree, I'll do it for you.

Hummina Shadeeba said:

……. the very recent past heat increase is very much so understood to be caused by increased greenhouse gases and we are forecast to stall (forever?) the next ice age as carbon dioxide levels rise.

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Its odd then that previous ice ages were not prevented by much higher (extreemly high) CO2 levels ?

There’s no question as to if the temp is increasing or not. It is. The question is how important you think it is to keep co2 levels low to avert possibly going over a tipping point
https://phys.org/news/2022-04-world-perilously-irreversible-climate-scientists.html

Click to expand...

NO !.. the question is what are the drivers of any temperature increase (or decrease),
Rather than to just blindly accept the theory that it is is all down to man made CO2 !

….You’re in the belt where conspiracy goof YouTube videos circle.

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…so are you ! :wink:

Hillhater said:

Chalo said:

…..The average Nepalese person has 1/50 the resource footprint of the average gringo. If you live like a callously indifferent swine-- driving a pickup truck 20 miles each way from a huge poorly built new house to a refrigerated corporate office, crapping out way too many kids, flying all over the place, buying useless stuff for entertainment-- then you're a wastrel and the world would be much better off without you and your piglets.

Click to expand...

I think you would be much more content if you moved to Nepal and lived their lifestyle !….
… but just maybe… you prefer to stay put and benefit from some of those advantages that advanced society, cheap transport, and fossil fuels, ..give you ?

Click to expand...

The only reason I remain in this stupid, toxic country is the people and community I would have to give up if I relocated. It's for sure not the gawdawful road system, commercial blight, crass materialism, corporate propaganda etc. which I'm only too eager to put behind me.