e-Buggy: Alternator Conversion

Electric Motors and Controllers
Harold in CR
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Re: e-Buggy: Alternator Conversion

Post by Harold in CR » Tue Apr 06, 2010 3:39 pm

Correct, NO slip rings using the magnets. I have been too busy and too tired, when I get home, to do any experimenting. I don't even know, for sure, what sensors even look like, let alone how to use them. :roll:

When I take the Alt apart, to swap the spacer rings, I will try to remember to take a few photos. Might even put it along side the 24V 150 Amp Alt, just so you can see the difference in size. It's a big one. :roll: :roll:
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John500
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Re: e-Buggy: Alternator Conversion

Post by John500 » Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:23 pm

widodo wrote: The alternator regulator works by varying the rotor supply to assure that the output always 13.8V under any load condition, so you might experience this in your experiment. Just be careful as unloaded alternator could produce quite high voltage in a given rpm & rotor supply :wink:
When a "12V" vehicle first starts it is common to see the alternator output rise to 14.5V and stay there for several minutes until the battery is fully charged.
With the engine off, leave the headlights on for 10 minutes. Start the engine and observe the voltage across the battery.
We constructed 50 or more 110VAC output devices from many different brands of alternators. Just a switch to interrupt the power to the rotor. The AC voltage was controlled by rpm. Too many people put heavy loads on this system and complained after burning out their alternators.

widodo
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Re: e-Buggy: Alternator Conversion

Post by widodo » Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:22 pm

John500 wrote: We constructed 50 or more 110VAC output devices from many different brands of alternators. Just a switch to interrupt the power to the rotor. The AC voltage was controlled by rpm. Too many people put heavy loads on this system and complained after burning out their alternators.
It's true, we had quite a number of private micro-hydro power plant in rural area using this kind of technique, the draw back is only that it comes with higher freq. than the standard 50HZ, hence it will be a scrolling picture if used in non digital television. Still, that was not a problem since if they have to have a home build generator would also means that they are too rural for television signal to reached :D .

widodo
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Weekly Update

Post by widodo » Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:38 am

After a whole week long waiting for the component to arrives from Singapore, Finally the Home Made Controller is up and run now. :D :D

Still with all three passes running perfectly, Torque ripple still quite noticeable which in turns limit the maximum achievable RPM,
Initial suspect was :
1. there are sensor which was not exactly 120 degree apart
2. Being fix sensor, I don't have any flexibility for adjusting the timing, hence try to retard by 90 degree (by shifting the hall sensor input A->B, B->C, C->A but the result was worsen)
3. Commutation Logic is not really sophisticated enough.

Answered number 2 already by experiment, but need a confirmed answer on point 1 & 3, hence I tried to hooked up with my HK Car Brushless ESC in the sensored mode to see if it show the same performance. The result are as the Video (apologies for the background noise as my wive trying to update me on her mobile provider.. :oops: )

Image

As it could be seen, it was working flawlessly... :D :D :D , start-up was very smooooth and you should feels the torque by your hand .. :wink: yet it was only powered by 3S1P lipo. Reverse was also working, but not in high throttle (still haven't figure out why as I was quite busy explain to my wive that this thing is very important... :cry: ) .

Nevertheless, this concludes the experiment for a Sensored Alter-Motor as it ware really viable :D :D and workable, but also opening new chapter in Home Made Controller logic enhancement :twisted: :twisted:. But That has to wait as I will be traveling aboard for two week.

Further, found some reading material on http://www.embedded.com on motor controller especially on hall optimization, however any input on controller logic will helps a lot

salty9
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Re: e-Buggy: Alternator Conversion

Post by salty9 » Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:35 am

Widodo,

Looking good. The altermotor looks quite torquey for operating on only 2 phases at such a low voltage.
Your material use is inspired. I had considered using perf board and ic sockets but didn't know it it were feasible. With care, you should be able to go from prototype to use. I will look at cell phones with different eyes - not as irritating annoyances but as raw materials for use.

Could you post a schematic of your controller?

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Re: e-Buggy: Alternator Conversion

Post by dajsinjo » Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:53 am

What would happen if you would power rotor with 12V ?

I think those alternators are very robust, they work near hot engine at some 14V + some drop at diodes,
so I guess when they work as motors , in normal enviroment, they can work at higher voltage and stil not burn out.

Anyway I am converting my 45A 14V alternator and wonder if this controller is good for stator:
http://cgi.ebay.com/200A-Brushless-Moto ... 2559e077bd

Please advise, I want to do it as cheap as possible.

Thanks
Dajs

Harold in CR
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Re: e-Buggy: Alternator Conversion

Post by Harold in CR » Sun Apr 11, 2010 6:45 pm

Widodo
Looks like you have figured out how to power up and control speed of the Altmotor. Congrats

Unfortunately, it took me 43 minutes to see the video in spurts. I could not get a real time replay to view. This SUX.

I have been offered a chance to BUY, a thumb drive type Internet access device, from our Communications monopoly provider. It costs $85.00, then $14.00 per month. Does anyone know if these devices work in remote locations ??? We live on top of a very high hill, with a tower in view. What about weather related interruptions ???

I have probably 100 videos I would REALLY like to view. Downloading here, would take years and I pay for Internet by time used on the phone line (Dial-up). IT SUX. It's rainy and windy today, and, the Internet connection has been dropped and reconnected probably 20 times, so far :x :x :x :x ??
Thanks to Justin, the forum is open source and NON-commercialized.

widodo
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Re: e-Buggy: Alternator Conversion

Post by widodo » Sun Apr 11, 2010 7:42 pm

Thanks Guys,
salty9 wrote: Your material use is inspired. I had considered using perf board and ic sockets but didn't know it it were feasible. With care, you should be able to go from prototype to use. I will look at cell phones with different eyes - not as irritating annoyances but as raw materials for use.

Could you post a schematic of your controller?
Well that is actually what I did, a perf board & IC socket, but for the mosfet I used a 10x15 in heat sink. Hope this picture could inspired you
Image

On the schematic, Atmel's Application note AVR32710 clearly explain which only for easy access are shown below
Image, you need to have three of this.

From IR2101 design tips, please note you should use non electrolyte capacitor, so what I used is a 6.8mF tantalum capacitor. I did not use the resistor though, as I was working in a controlled environment. Hence, for the photo above you could see that I only use 2 capacitor and 1 diode for each phase.
dajsinjo wrote:What would happen if you would power rotor with 12V ?

I think those alternators are very robust, they work near hot engine at some 14V + some drop at diodes,
so I guess when they work as motors , in normal enviroment, they can work at higher voltage and stil not burn out.

Anyway I am converting my 45A 14V alternator and wonder if this controller is good for stator:
http://cgi.ebay.com/200A-Brushless-Moto ... 2559e077bd

Please advise, I want to do it as cheap as possible.
If you look up the video, I did changed the rotor supply to 12V just for demostration, well it slow her down while multiplying the torque. But My rotor saturates around 5 Volts, hence what I've got is only heat after that.

On the controller, I do happened to have the 100A version( http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... 0-100A_ESC ) Mine is OK, but the algorithm is not really sophisticated enough, well that is why I believe they call it "simple" ESC do have a outsync in full throttle. But seeing how the sensored version work, may I suggest for you to go for a sensored path ?. But still's, my eBuggy works ok on the sensorless mode, hence I assumed you will be OK.
Harold in CR wrote: Unfortunately, it took me 43 minutes to see the video in spurts. I could not get a real time replay to view. This SUX.
It would be a totally different world if wasn't because of those broadband :wink: , the higher the frequency it will behave more like a light, so it was good that you already have a line of sight to the tower. Since you could dials up, don't they offers ADSL as a service ?

Harold in CR
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Re: e-Buggy: Alternator Conversion

Post by Harold in CR » Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:02 pm

Widodo
Yes, they offer ADSL with a BRAND NEW fibre optic cable. I was told I live 300 meters to far from the line, so, I must BUY this wireless device ??? I asked why not just put on an amplifier, so others beyond me could access the same ADSL service ??

My question was bypassed to say, this is what you need, the wireless.

Guess I need to go to San Jose and get up on the desk of whoever is the boss of this company. Seems that screaming at those in charge is the only way to get service down here ???

I'm trying to find out if there is a Public Service Commission, but, I believe the system here is, money talks :roll: :roll: :roll:

Sorry to be taking over this thread. I am just SOOO frustrated. :x :x :x
Thanks to Justin, the forum is open source and NON-commercialized.

Fligh High
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Re: e-Buggy: Alternator Conversion

Post by Fligh High » Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:37 pm

Hi Widodo , said I would keep you company well here I am :wink: Good to see that you have made some progress ! And nice to see that people are still interested in a alternator-motor conversion here at Endless-sphere.

Unfortunately I've had very litlle time these past two weeks to look into the electronic parts that I have to order to make an alternator work and don't want to forget something , I just had too little time to look into it......but maybe the two weeks that you have to work will give me some time to catch up on your head-start with the conversion :mrgreen:

I feel that this year there are definately some more alternator-motor conversions going to happen ! See you later.

widodo
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Re: e-Buggy: Alternator Conversion

Post by widodo » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:42 pm

Fligh High wrote:Hi Widodo , said I would keep you company well here I am :wink: Good to see that you have made some progress ! And nice to see that people are still interested in a alternator-motor conversion here at Endless-sphere.

Unfortunately I've had very litlle time these past two weeks to look into the electronic parts that I have to order to make an alternator work and don't want to forget something , I just had too little time to look into it......but maybe the two weeks that you have to work will give me some time to catch up on your head-start with the conversion :mrgreen:

I feel that this year there are definately some more alternator-motor conversions going to happen ! See you later.
Fligh High, Welcome :D

Yes absolutely this is the place, you couldn't imagine how much I had learn from endless sphere, while my very-very small contribution was really appreciated. For an Insurance Operational guys who trying to have a budget alternative like my self, this is a very-very nice place (Not mentioning the time saved trying to explaining things to people with not genuinely interest like in other forum, if you know what I mean :wink: ). I'll be leaving this saturday, Really Hope I could see your Alter-Motor powered Heli soon :mrgreen:

Anyway, love to share what I already know or find out, and looking forward to see it running else where

Cheers
widodo

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Re: e-Buggy: Alternator Conversion

Post by dajsinjo » Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:20 am

widodo wrote:
dajsinjo wrote:What would happen if you would power rotor with 12V ?

I think those alternators are very robust, they work near hot engine at some 14V + some drop at diodes,
so I guess when they work as motors , in normal enviroment, they can work at higher voltage and stil not burn out.

Anyway I am converting my 45A 14V alternator and wonder if this controller is good for stator:
http://cgi.ebay.com/200A-Brushless-Moto ... 2559e077bd

Please advise, I want to do it as cheap as possible.
If you look up the video, I did changed the rotor supply to 12V just for demostration, well it slow her down while multiplying the torque. But My rotor saturates around 5 Volts, hence what I've got is only heat after that.

On the controller, I do happened to have the 100A version( http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... 0-100A_ESC ) Mine is OK, but the algorithm is not really sophisticated enough, well that is why I believe they call it "simple" ESC do have a outsync in full throttle. But seeing how the sensored version work, may I suggest for you to go for a sensored path ?. But still's, my eBuggy works ok on the sensorless mode, hence I assumed you will be OK.
Thank you widodo for very usefull information!
I will order that cheap controller for now and see how it works.

Dajs

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Re: e-Buggy: Alternator Conversion

Post by krumpi » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:35 pm

Hello!
This is my first post, and I am not trying to steel your thread. I've converted small alternator last summer, but it's still on the table, I have no time to build a vehicle for it.
If I saw correct, your (Mr Widodo) hall-sensors are in the "claws" of the stator. My sensors are between claws and it runs great, powered by some sensored esc, running on 48v. Armature (rotor) is powered from separated sla using independent brushed controller. I have experimented with moment-rpm-armature current with same results as yours, but not documented. My sensors are in the middle, at first I made mistake and had them on the edge, but before first probe, repositioned them.
I have some pictures of alternator if there are interested. It's from an DDR car Wartburg I drove 8years ago, but now with built-in sensors.

Harold in CR
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Re: e-Buggy: Alternator Conversion

Post by Harold in CR » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:22 pm

Welcome to the Sphere, Krumpi :)
Photos are ALWAYS welcome, here.
Thanks to Justin, the forum is open source and NON-commercialized.

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Re: e-Buggy: Alternator Conversion

Post by widodo » Tue Apr 13, 2010 9:10 pm

krumpi wrote:Hello!
This is my first post, and I am not trying to steel your thread. I've converted small alternator last summer, but it's still on the table, I have no time to build a vehicle for it.
If I saw correct, your (Mr Widodo) hall-sensors are in the "claws" of the stator. My sensors are between claws and it runs great, powered by some sensored esc, running on 48v. Armature (rotor) is powered from separated sla using independent brushed controller. I have experimented with moment-rpm-armature current with same results as yours, but not documented. My sensors are in the middle, at first I made mistake and had them on the edge, but before first probe, repositioned them.
I have some pictures of alternator if there are interested. It's from an DDR car Wartburg I drove 8years ago, but now with built-in sensors.
Krumpi, Welcome :D

The "Claws" sensor was not really working, the one in the middle is the one which works flawlessly. I also used brushed ESC for my stator, really surprise that we're having the same path on this journey. Anyway, love to see your alter-motor if you have the picture, especially as my ultimates dream is to have it powering up the front differential of my wive's 1991 Gladenwagen.

Really appreciate if you could also contributes to the thread :D
widodo

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Re: e-Buggy: Alternator Conversion

Post by krumpi » Wed Apr 14, 2010 3:05 am

Good morning! :D
It's a small alternator, it was running on a two-stroker. Small in power, not in gabarites.
Here are my pictures :
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John500
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Re: e-Buggy: Alternator Conversion

Post by John500 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:05 am

"Small in power, not in gabarites." Does "gabarites" mean physical size? A large alternator for low power?
Thanks :D

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Re: e-Buggy: Alternator Conversion

Post by krumpi » Wed Apr 14, 2010 1:24 pm

Yes, it isn't smaller than alternator used in my current car, and it's rated 75A, and the one I've converted is 42A. Gabarites (LxWxH) is not right word? Or not too often used? Sorry, in every post I have to check my spelling, and my vocabulary is short, although I read English texts a few hours every day, but reading isn't writing. :oops:

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Re: e-Buggy: Alternator Conversion

Post by amberwolf » Wed Apr 14, 2010 5:36 pm

krumpi wrote:Gabarites (LxWxH) is not right word?
I suspect you mean "dimensions" or "size".

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Re: e-Buggy: Alternator Conversion

Post by krumpi » Thu Apr 15, 2010 2:04 am

Yes, dimensions is the right word. :oops: Black hole in my mind is bigger and bigger :roll: :D
Interesting, when I write in English, I think in English too, but when it comes to that thing that I can't find the right word, I have a picture in mind, without corresponding word, not in English, but not in Croatian too. Black hole eats my mind...
I have to reread all the posts in this thread, can't figure out how widodo is "sinchronizing" brushed and brushless controller. Cruising with 10km/h, and driving up the hill needs different settings for controllers, so it can't be simple inverse proportional (rpm - armature current). I could build manual "speed changer", but it isn't what I had in my mind. I need to sense the needed torque... Too complicated? :(

OK, it was in the first post :oops:

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Re: e-Buggy: Alternator Conversion

Post by widodo » Thu Apr 15, 2010 6:47 pm

You could just monitor "Mixing" from the motor RPM (for the unsesored version, need to install a magnet in the pulley), in my case, I believe this is safer compares with the current monitor through the shunt resistor and needs shorter instruction in the programming side.

Anyway, I'll have to go, but just want to share a really interesting reading material for those interested in building their own controller:
http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod ... oc8010.pdf

See you all next week :D

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Re: e-Buggy: Alternator Conversion

Post by zenon » Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:46 am

Hi Widodo,

Thanks for sharing, I've been interested in the alternator conversion because of possible power output ,simplicity , robust , and cost effective. I have lots of extra BL controller, so time for me to go to the auto wrecking and find the biggest used alternator I could find for conversion. If it runs right it will power one of the costume build tadpole trikes . :D

Cheer's

Zenon
-Home build Tadpole trike with 9C 7turn motor peaks at 2.4 K watt, 54v 18AH Makita lithium packs 63V full charge
Charger - 48V 9A cc/cv power supply upgraded to supply 36v to 63v,
GM controller 36v 32A upgrade to 75V 45A
Top speed 60km/h

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Re: e-Buggy: Alternator Conversion

Post by dajsinjo » Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:36 am

This will be a motor soon !
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1.jpg
dirty,rusty and worn out, but still working !

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Re: e-Buggy: Alternator Conversion

Post by dajsinjo » Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:48 am

rotor lookes realy nice
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2.jpg

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Re: e-Buggy: Alternator Conversion

Post by John500 » Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:42 pm

zenon wrote:Hi Widodo,

Thanks for sharing, I've been interested in the alternator conversion because of possible power output ,simplicity , robust , and cost effective. I have lots of extra BL controller, so time for me to go to the auto wrecking and find the biggest used alternator I could find for conversion. If it runs right it will power one of the costume build tadpole trikes . :D

Cheer's

Zenon
I like your skeleton "costume" on the tadpole. Or is it a custom without a costume? :lol: :lol: :mrgreen:

You will find the large alternators on old cop cars, trucks, buses or marine. Even look at Princess Auto for aircraft surplus. I guess you know there are several around Vancouver?

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