Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Jul 20, 2010 9:47 pm

Took me a while to find the USB-serial sync cable for the PDA so I could put Veloace back on it (it forgets eveyrhting when the battery goes flat). Dropped to 95F in the meantime, out there.

I am not certain exactly what the circumference of my front tire is, as I can't find the info on that I was sure I had saved from before, and I also can't find anything longer than a 10cm ruler to remeasure it (my crazy sister has been back at the house for some days now and things are magically disappearing and moving around again). It comes out on a rollout close to 209cm, so I used that, but with 10cm measurements lined up end to end there is considerable margin for error.

There is some slightly gusty breeze that varies in direction, so I rode in all four cardinal directions with the streets around here and get these readings, using the 9C, 36V 13Ah NiMH, and Lyen 6FET. I forgot to look at the Watts reading but was instead looking at Amps, :( so that's what I've written down below:

5MPH = 3-4A
10MPH = 4-6A
15MPH = 5-7A
20MPH = 11-13A

To get to the desired speed for steady reading, I rode for at least 3 seconds at that speed with no spedometer variation before glancing at the WU readout. Would've been longer, but there is too much traffic this time of day in the neighborhood and the roads are too short in some cases, before coming to stop signs or other speed-altering situations.

Since the voltage for 5-15MPH is around the same, at 38-40V, and at 20MPH is around 33-35V, that puts calculated watts-at-speed at these numbers:

5MPH = 114 -160W
10MPH = 160 -240W
15MPH = 190 - 280W
20MPH = 363 - 455W

Accelerating up to those speeds takes a lot more power; the peak watt reading was 841W, and the peak amps were 24.63. Minimum voltage was 32.44, resting voltage after return was 38.5. Total of 1.544Ah used up.

Total mileage doing these tests was 3.396 miles, and total Wh was 56.3, giving a Wh/mile of 16.58. Surprisingly low given that I was not pedalling at all, and the heavy accelerations I did for extended periods for the 20MPH runs (which were interrrupted multiple times due to heavier traffic out on the faster longer roads).


(crossposted results to the Watts at speed survey thread).
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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Jul 22, 2010 4:53 am

I didn't have time with traffic today on the way to/from work to try noting watts-at-speed during the trip, but here's the trip numbers with the 9C, Lyen 6FET, and 13Ah 36V NiMH:

I think my tire size *is* off, because my mileage is significantly different from what I had before, on either CB2 or DGA.

to work:
2.311 miles
24.77Ap
0.908Ah
33.15Vm
33.6Wh
863.8Wp
About 14.54Wh/mile.

to home:
2.9 miles
24.96Ap
1.178Ah
41.5Wh
837.4Wp
About 14.31Wh/mile.

Odd that Wh/mile is *lower* on the trip home, even though I deliberately rode faster (20mph for as many stretches as I could, vs the 13-15mph max on the way to work), and I was riding against a stiff breeze most of the way, and some significant gusts in certain places, unlike on the way to work which was almost windless.

Kinda confuses me; unless it is an efficiency thing with the 9c 2807 itself, taking significantly less power at higher speeds for whatever reason?

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Jul 22, 2010 10:46 pm

Did a trip to the store less than a mile a way, rode without pedalling except for startups just to try to keep currents down on the poor NiMH pack. ;)

To store:
0.408Ah
14.9Wh
32.7Vm
830.4Wp
25.97Ap
0.967miles

From store:
0.553Ah
19.0Wh
31.47vm
797Wp
24.59Ap
1.151 miles (roundabout way back due to increasing evening traffic)

Trip back had 28lbs of groceries, so that helped increase the Wh/mile from 15.41 to 16.51, as did having to accelerate harder for longer to get into traffic exiting the store parking lot. Odd that the peak A and W are less, despite that, though. :?


I saw a storm coming in, with little gusty winds starting up, when I got home. I decided I wanted to test the bike in the rain, so I recharged the battery and found some clear plastic bags to put over the WU and the PDA, with rubber bands to hold them on.

The battery was already warm from the store ride, so it did not take a full charge before it shut off thermally. I forgot to turn the WU around so I don't know how many Ah went back in. :roll: but the voltage never got above 42.9V, as I kept watching it every minute or two to see when it was full (so I could go out and ride starting freshly full charge). Usually it goes up to almost or just beyond 45V and then drops to 42.something (nearly 43).

Results from my 34 minutes and 6.73 miles of wandering the neighborhood in the rain at various speeds up to 17MPH, but typically around 11MPH, as the rain made the streets slick with the oil on the surface.

Mostly it just drizzled, except for a burst here and there, and it was not enough to wash the oil off the streets, as evidenced by the number of screeches I could hear, and the several thuds from bumper-crunches a few streets away (probably at Northern, Dunlap, 27th Ave, and 31st Ave, as those are the higher-speed streets most likely to have traffic not paying attention).

*I* almost skidded out at Butler and 31st Ave, making a right turn, as I came to a stop for the 4-way stop, and then again as I started out just as I began to round the corner I lost all traction front (motor spinning out wheel and throwing water and gravel) and rear and started to skid sideways, but a foot pushed down kicked me upright as I cut throttle (and of course stopped pedalling) and I got traction back to get going. So no crash today. :)

Rode thru the deepest puddles I could find (8 or 9 inches at a couple of street corners, after the very short deluge part of the storm, including the leftover rain from a couple of nights ago, I'm sure). Wanted to test the water-proofness of the wiring, motor, cargopod, etc. No problems during or after the ride. Also was testing traction in water, and I didn't have any slip I could feel, even cutting throttle and then ramming it to WOT. Another reason I like these tires' tread pattern.

Ended up with these readings:
119Wh
3.369Ah
881Wp
25.12Ap
31.03Vm
37.16V end of trip resting

It wasn't a real drenching, but with the steady drizzle it was very wet and still the bike kept working for the whole 34 minutes, which is good. It's not that likely I'd be out in any rainstorm for that long, but good to know I shoudln't have a problem if I am. :)

Once I fix up the CA then I will go ahead and build that "dashboard" inspired by LI-ghtcycle's, though I probably won't have a fairing for it like his. Then I'll be able to seal up the whole wiring and electronics in the dash box so it'd be waterproof. Probably the controller will go in there, too, since it's closer to the motor and phase currents are going to be higher than battery currents so shorter phase wires is more critical than shorter battery wires, if either one matters at all in this setup. :)

I have been putting off the dash idea first because I did not really like any of the positions the PDA would end up in to keep it out of the way of the Fusin headlight/battery gauge unit and it's keyswitch, and later because I did not want to build one to hold the PDA and WU (or TWM) and then have to redo it to replace those with the CA.

Now I have to go change clothes, because I'm starting to get really cold all wet like this. :(

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Jul 24, 2010 12:57 am

More data from work commute with the same motor/batt/cont combo. Again I only pedalled at startups, to cut down on the high-current draw on the NiMH. Based on the Wh numbers I must be riding a lot differently going home than coming to work, because Wh/mile is a lot less even though it's a significantly longer ride, and typically I ride faster for longer stretches going home, I thought. Apparently not, though.

To work:
Started at 40.9V, ended at 38.9V
1.207Ah
43.5Wh
24.66Ap
818.9Wp
32.42Vm
2.303 miles
18.89Wh/mile

From work:
Started at 39.1V, ended at 37.83V
1.415Ah
38.9Wh
24.86Ap
814.2Wp
31.58Vm
2.973 miles
13.08Wh/mile

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Jul 24, 2010 11:03 pm

Doing some experimenting with programming the Lyen 6FET, finally. Changed the current limit from default of 25A to 16A, which should basically match the Fusin controller. Doesn't affect the final top speed of the 9C but it definitely affects it's acceleration capability. Since my main reason for it is to help protect the NiMH without me having to think about it anymore, that's ok.

If I really want better acceleration, it'll give me more motivation to finish the stupid LiCo testing and/or the TS pack and BMSes for them. :roll:

I did discover that the preset for the speed percentage on the second (middle) "cruise control" settings directly affects the non-cruise max speed. In other words, if you have it setup so you can use a three-button speed switch instead of a throttle, this would be the middle setting.

But if you don't actually have such a switch hooked up, and instead have a throttle, it makes that your *max speed*. With it set to 100, my no-load wheelspeed is ~27mph, but with it set to 60, that drops to ~16mph (about 60% of 27).

So make sure if you're programming your controller, and you don't have one of those switches, leave that second one at 100%.

Interestingly, changing either the first or last presets to anything you want doesn't affect the actual throttle min or max. Just the middle one. Seems quite strange, as I would have expected that to be the last one to affect max speed.

I'll have to wire up one of those switches (as I have one from the Fusin) and see if perhaps it actually works by switching from 1 to 3 to 2, and thus if the program has these settings out of practical order (even though they're in numeric order). I do seem to recall that the PCB silkscreen on at least one controller (might not be this one) had some pads marked X1 X3 X2, in that order, which would then make sense of the way the settings actually work in the program.

I'm pretty sure this result will be applicable to all 116 controllers, and possibly to all the programmable Infineons in general.

I have not yet experimented with the regen settings, which are already set at the highest numbers listed (75V and strength of 2), but I would like to make stronger regen braking if it is possible.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Jul 26, 2010 1:48 am

More numbers, same setup as before, but with the 16A current limit in the 6FET, everything else the same settings and test conditions, although there was a LOT of strong wind to ride against on the way home.

Start 43.89V (I pulled the charger off before it got to the voltage drop phase, where it makes it all hot, and rode to work right then).

To work:
1.117Ah
41.7Wh
19.99Ap
743.8Wp
34.55Vm
2.3miles
41.5V rest after trip
18.13Wh/mile

To home:
1.507Ah
53.1Wh
19.89Ap
659.8Wp
33.12Vm
2.949 miles
38.23V rest after trip
18.01Wh/mile

Now here's the wierd part: Why with virtually no wind against me to work, and lots of wind against me on the way home, riding around the same speeds (with higher current draws against that wind than same speeds without wind), why is my Wh/mile *lower* against that wind?

I definitely was using more power. But overall all the readings tend to lower. I'm wondering if there is something in the WattsUp that isn't calculating right, based on the voltage at the time or something. I dunno. Maybe it's actually accurate and I'm just using so much less power in some other phase of that leg of the trip that it really does total up to that much less power. :?


Anyway, I'm gonna go swap out the covers on the 9C for the drilled out ones from Icecube57's GM/9C mutation, and then we'll see how it acts and sounds like that. Mostly this is to test for what causes that annoying whine/ringing at ~15mph, so I can eliminate it if possible.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by BikeFanatic » Jul 26, 2010 9:42 am

You have great numbers there, I rarely break 20 watts a mile unless I am conserving,
(on my presumably lighter mountain bike). Though lately I have been running on 36 volts and I should crunch the numbers again Do you think maybe 36 volts is more efficient?

I hate to say this but may be the Voltage sag is so bad on the poor ( recycled ) NIMH that on the way home that your numbers are skewed lower as you can not go as fast on lower voltage?

I am working on a 90 percent recycle ebike currently inspired by you and dogman. 8) I built a wood platform in the triangle for the bad ping ( still works but a weak cell group) and the fa donor gary fisher from the 90 almost all parts are from the cellar or reclaimed off an old bike except the controller is new ( from JRH. I love the sensorless it is so tiny as well) , and the c washers, I got the front hub from a local guy that needed the money. I'd do a build thread- but nothing new or fabricated, I just copy off you guys.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Jul 27, 2010 2:04 am

I think you should make a build thread anyway--it would be interesting to see even if it is a "copy". Nothing is really 100% identical, and sometimes those tiny differences inspire others to something new (certainly true with me).


As for the Wh/mile, I'm really surprised that they are this low, as I was expecting much higher power consumption. The Fusin is pretty low, but this is nearly comparable!

As for the efficiency of a voltage vs a system, it would depend on the motor's optimal RPM based on it's windings/etc, at that voltage, and what you run them at speed wise. Another thread just did some number crunching on a different system, and although I don't know how to do that kind of figuring, it'd be interesting to see what the numbers run on various hub motors, like the 9C and the Fusin.

If I knew what the "most efficient speed" at a particular pack voltage was (assuming it works that way), I could pick a hub motor and a voltage based on how I ride a particular bike, considering I am trying to build up different ones for different purposes. It doesn't really matter that much for my mid-drive bikes, as those are altered via the chain drive for RPM to the wheel anyway. But any hub motor will have a sweet spot speed-wise, based on systme voltage (assuming WOT) AFAIK.

It is possibel that your system is not being ridden at that sweet spot, and is either above or below it, causing extra power usage vs power output.


As for the voltage sag, it is not really all that bad, as I see the Vmin about the same (relative to start voltage) on either leg of the trip. I *do* go about as fast either way, it's just that it is apparently more efficient doing it going home and I haven't figured out why yet. I will need to do a test where I recharge at work, just before I leave, so that I am testing at the same pack conditions either way. Also do that test using no pedal power, so I am only testing motor efficiency. Then if it has to do with ride conditions like number of stops actually made, slopes, wind, etc., I can possibly narrow it down to one or more of those factors. But at least it will eliminate the battery from the equation, as well as human power input.


Some numbers from today. I chose to pedal all the time, keeping it to my typical level of effort just below the threshold of knee angst (which is pretty low). I went to work, back home, and then to the store to catch some stuff about to go off sale tomorrow (because there will probably be a flood of people buying the rest of it up then), and back home. The store trip is only measured as one continuous leg there and back, so I wouldn't have to stand in the dark parking lot to write down all the numbers.

I forgot to write the start voltage down, but it is whatever the fully charged voltage is, hot off the charger.

To work:
0.821Ah
31.8Wh
19.87Ap
740.3Wp
35.24Vm
40.31V resting
2.31mi
13.77Wh/mile

To home:
1.246Ah
44.7Wh
19.95Ap
699.5Wp
33.57Vm
38.84V resting
2.89mi
15.46Wh/mile

Store trip:
1.079Ah
37.8Wh
19.77Ap
670Wp
32.74Vm
37.66V resting
2.52mi
15.0Wh/mile

Now this makes a little more sense, because with me pedalling, on the way to work I'm fresh and contribute more. On the way home, I contribute less because I'm tired and the motor has to do more. Both ways to/from work have about the same amount of stops/starts IIRC, around a dozen, depending on traffic.

On the store trip there are only two stop signs, so much less power is wasted in stopping and in restarting from that stop, so even though I had a load of groceries adding nearly 43lbs to the bike, it takes less energy to do the trip because I didn't have to star moving that mass as many times--my major power usages are in acceleration.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Jul 27, 2010 10:55 pm

I had to get up really early (for me) today for work, and apparently forgot to charge the bike last night. So the numbers below are an extension of those above, and I also pedalled the same. Was so tired I did not attempt fast speeds, and about 14MPH was the fastest cruising speed I tried to keep just because I was not sure of my judgement in that state.

To work:
37.85V starting
0.887Ah
31.1Wh
19.40Ap
628Wp
32.2Vm
37.01V resting
2.30mi
13.52Wh/mile

I didn't have any return trip readings because I cheated; had lunch with a friend and got a ride home from him (I wasnt' sure I could actually ride home safely, being totally exhausted). On the good side, on the way home we stopped at the store to catch the tail end of the sale I mentioned before, and I scored about 23lbs of bacon for $0.99/lb on clearance, where it is normally $5.99/lb. I can't normally afford bacon but it is one of my favorite foods, so now hopefully I have at least a year's supply in my freezer. :lol:

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Jul 28, 2010 2:17 am

Recharged now, to 4.761Ah and 178.1Wh. That's a ratio of about 1.2 on the Ah, where I thought I had 1.5 or so when I slow charged them with the Sorensons. I'm too tired to remember for sure, but it ougth to be earlier in this thread someplace. Well, for the 9Ah pack, anyway, snce this is the 13Ah.

I shut the charger off but left it connected, and if I have time before I leave for work I'll switch it back on for a finish cycle to see if it puts anything significant on top, for curiosity.

Maybe this next cycle I"ll run it all the way down before I charge it back up, to where it doesn't provide any useful assist or where LVC (30V) kicks in, just to see how many Ah/Wh that is.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Jul 28, 2010 5:45 pm

I didn't have time for a full finish cycle but I let it put another 0.181Ah in there, for a final voltage of 42.9V. This time I rode entirely with motor, no pedalling at all, and tried to keep the speed at 20MPH everywhere I could, which was probably at least 1/3 of each way, possibly more. Some places are 15MPH and parking lots where I have to detour a couple of places are better travelled at less than 10MPH.

To work:
1.375Ah
45.4Wh
19.96Ap
698Wp
33.75Vm
38.72V resting
2.35mi
21.02Wh/mile

From work:
1.528Ah
52.7Wh
19.95Ap
679Wp
32.57Vm
17.54Wh/mile
37.5V resting
3.003mi

So...there is definitely something on the way home that either slows me down long enough to not require as much power, or is helping me in some other way. It isnt' the wind, because it has almost always been stronger against me on my way home than to work, in the recent testing.

Now I'm going to do a rundown test, and not charge it until it hits LVC (or doesn't move the bike enough to be useful, which ever comes first), continuing the motor-only tests thru that time. Got another workday tomorrow with the same hours as yesterday and today, so we'll see what happens, if weather is similar/etc.

Next, I'll charge at work and see what it is like for the trip home.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Jul 28, 2010 10:14 pm

Oh, I forgot to mention that the temperature of the controller was only warm, though the motor was fairly hot (it was not quite 100F out there today when I came home from work about 245PM). I suspect the controller temperature being lower than the "hot" it usually runs at is from being at WOT with no current limiting going on.

It *was* hot on the way *to* work at 730-740AM, when the outside temps were 20F cooler, but the pack was fully charged and forcing me to feather throttle a bit to stay down at 20MPH (WOT was more like 22-23, sometimes 24), for the first mile and a half or more.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Jul 28, 2010 10:48 pm

Forgot another thing. A few days back I had gotten tired of the window tinting I'd used to dim the LEDs of the battery meter for nighttime riding just coming loose due to heat melting the tape adhesive. I'd meant to fix it just about every day since I put it on, and the only reason I didn't just do it right to start with was I didn't know how many layers it would end up needing to be dim enough to not night-blind me but to still be easily visible in midday sun.

So I cleaned off the tape goo, cut the tinting down to size, and installed it under the clear plastic window on the Fusin headlight unit. Looks much better now, still works the same.
DSC03030.JPG
DSC03030.JPG (53.61 KiB) Viewed 2783 times
Everything off.
DSC03031.JPG
DSC03031.JPG (56.73 KiB) Viewed 2783 times
Power on.

It's still kinda bright when riding canal paths or any other non-streetlamp area, especially places without headlights in my eyes. But at least it does not overwhelm my eyes trying to read the PDA's display (which is off in both pics), as it's backlight is not very bright; it's the old green monochrome Palm style.

Naturally, the best way to tackle this is some sort of inverse-light-activated dimmer, so that it gets dimmer in darkness rather than the way the headlight dimmer works (turning off when sufficient ambient light exists), using the same sensor the headlight dimmer does (to minimize components).

But I haven't had time to do that yet, in the approximately half year I've had the Fusin, and probably won't for a while yet, especially now that I seem to keep getting more dayjob hours (a very good thing, but chaotic in that almost never do I have the same schedule two days in a row, and each week is a different schedule, too, and I only get that schedule at best a few days before the week starts (often has been only the day before).

So, it's planned, but I haven't even tried to work out the circuit, since I need to determine what the existing headlight dimmer does first, so I can tap into it's light sensor.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Aug 02, 2010 9:35 pm

Hmm....Either some of my posts are missing, or I have forgotten to post the results from the run-down. That's strange, because I am *sure* I had posted them. :( Of course, now I don't have any idea where the papers are I had jotted them down on. I guess I'll have to do it over again if I want to know the mileage/etc. I can get out of it that way. :roll:

More bad luck:

I bent *another* wheel on the way to work today; avoiding some unexpected and nearly invisible** but largish construction debris in a parking lot, I had to suddenly swerve quite far to the left very hard, and smacked that big metal box on the left side of the bike into the curb. The box mounting flexed and then rebounded, forcing the rear wheel sideways to the right, which is the direction it is weakest.

So it bent the rim about half an inch or so to the left at what at that moment was the bottom, road-touching part of the tire. It's so bad that I had to take the brake pad off that side, or it would only rotate past that point if I both put the front wheel's motor on full blast *and* pedalled in low gear as hard as I could. :roll:

Made it to work and used some pliers to loosen spokes on one side and tighten some on the other to mitigate the bend a little, but the rim is toast unless I take it all apart and see if I can bend it the other way, then re-lace the whole wheel. Would've used my spoke tool, but naturally today I didn't have any of my tools with me, so the spoke nipples I had to use the pliers on are also toast. :(



**they had apparently *just* finished spray-paving/sealing where they'd cut out some asphalt for access to something underground, and glued it back in (rather than repaving), and when they did the spraying they just sprayed over a bunch of fist-sized chunks of *something* scattered around the parking lot in the exit lanes, rather than cleaning up their mess first and then spraying. Since they were utterly black, exactly like the road surface, and a really big shade tree's flickering shadows covered the area, I couldn't see that there was anything there until I was literally a couple of feet from it with no time to do anything but swerve around it to try not to destroy my wheels.

Well, at least I only toasted the regular rear wheel, and not the motor wheel. ;)

I was disconcerted enough by the wheel damage that I forgot to write down any data when I got to work, so I didn't do it when I got home either. I recall around 45Wh heading to work, and around 39Wh coming home, but nothing else.


Yet more bad luck: Apparently my crazy sister must've caught my SLA charger (the little one I use for the lighting SLA) in the front door, somehow (it's plugged into a socket about a foot from there) when she left or came back a couple of days ago, and crushed the corner of the PCB on it, as well as the large electrolytic. Of course, she didn't just hand it to me, apologize, and explain what happened. She just plugged it right back into the wall, where it sat for hours getting REALLY REALLY HOT from whatever was shorted together. I have no idea if it's fixable; I have to reconstruct the traces on the corner and wire around them, plus replace the cap, then see if it's fried or not. As long as the transformer is not fried I can rebuild or replace most of the rest of it. I have no idea what the transformer winding or output is, though (probably 15V, maybe more), so if it's toast then all I could do is guess and try different input voltages until it works, and then try a transformer of about that output level. If I can't fix it I've got other ways to charge it, but I'd rather use this thing.


Further bad luck: a couple of days ago my window A/C unit somehow had a leak under a gasket that's supposed to seal the power inputs to the compressor. Moisture has ingressed and corroded one of the steel pins that goes thru a glass seal into the compressor, and vibration broke it off. At the seal. :( This is the wire that goes thru the thermal cutoff that prevents overheat of the compressor; it's either power input or power return; don't know which but it is a high-current connection. Thankfully it happened in the evening, so I didn't have to stand in sweltering heat, but then it started raining and I had to wait a couple of hours (in the quickly heating-up house) to work on it. Eventually I got it all dried out, tied and siliconed the wire and pin in place well enough that it makes a connection good enough to operate the compressor. When I turned it on, there was a heckuva spark so hopefully it welded itself together at least a little, and hopefully the tiedown and silicone will keep it there and mitigate vibration that would break it apart again. I thought I took pictures of it all but there is nothing new on the memory card, or internal camera memory, so I must've imagined the flash going off all those times. :( Meh.


Hopefully the rest of my week will go much better.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Aug 04, 2010 10:58 pm

Well, I have to figure out what's wrong with the SLA charger. Transformer doesn't appear to be open or shorted, so it's probably a semiconductor.

In the meantime, I've installed the DC-DC converter Icecube57 sent me, which has two 12V outputs and one 3.3V. I'm just using the top 12V for now, but I need to go find the spec sheet and see if the two can be paralleled without diodes.
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There is not *quite* enough current capability for when my incandescent turn signals first start to light up on each flash cycle, so the LED taillight blinks on and off each signal flash. Eventually this kind of momentary overload could hurt the DC-DC too.

It doesn't draw much, only about 100mA from the pack with just the taillight on, and about 150mA with the brakelight on. Since the current is not steady long enough to get a good reading during turn signal operation, I am not certain, but I think it is around 500-900mA draw from the pack during each flash cycle (including the taillight).

I didn't do a good mounting job yet, it's just velcro-strapped onto the side of the SLA for now. I had to mount it at lunch at work, as I had not had time the last two days at home, after working on the charger, and I was worried the SLA was going to run down to where the lights wouldn't work and I'd need them when coming home at night especially. If I'm lucky I'll have time to think up a beter mounting tonite or tomorrow.
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I tapped the power off the wire coming from the headlight keyswitch, so now the lights are all switched by that. `
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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Aug 04, 2010 11:20 pm

Found the specs:
http://web.archive.org/web/200208160819 ... kp60xt.pdf
looks like the company itself doesn't do this type of product anymore:
http://www.cdpowerelectronics.com/ as referenced in their docs no longer exists; it's redirector ad page.
www.cdtechno.com is their corporate page but they no longer have anything like these anymore.

This appnote:
http://web.archive.org/web/200111150758 ... dcan09.htm
in Fig5 indicates that paralleling the outputs is actually desired in cases like mine where I'm not using them as separate 12V sources. So I'll do that as soon as I get the chance; should help the problem of turn signals blanking the taillight.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Aug 06, 2010 2:48 am

Hmm. Well, that didn't work out any better. Guess it simply can't provide enough surge current. I dont' think I can put big enough caps on it to do so either, without the surge current into them at power-on damaging the DC-DC. :( I'll live with the blinking tail, I guess. Attracts more attention anyway.

No time to work on anything else today, since the bad luck I had with the window A/C unit got worse. The below is really only related to this thread in that it has macguyvering and ebike parts in it, and involves motors and troubleshooting:

Woke up about two hours after I finally fell asleep to 90F temps. In my bedroom. The AC unit failed (the same way) again, and because it didn't pump correctly it just ADDED heat to the room instead of taking it out. :( :cry: :evil:

I was far too tired to fix it then, and had to get sleep so I could go to work about four hours later, so I had to shut all the dogs out of the room so they wouldn't come lay against me and heat me up even worse, then set the box fan on high across me and fitfully slept a little.

Got home from work around 730pm, started working on the AC unit by 8pm and determined I cannot fix it by 830pm. not only is it impossible to get it to stay connected on that corroded-off terminal, I can actually see tiny little bubbles flowing from the glass seal--I guess it's not sealed anymore either, and the R22 and lubricants in the compressor are very very slowly leaking out. That may well be what caused the corrosion in the first place, rather than water, perhaps. I don't know if that stuff is reactive like that when combined with air and moisture, in high temperatures.


Time to pull out the "backup" unit, which is an old one with it's own issues, given to me by someone a few years ago and not used a lot since then, except for a few months by my younger sister till she decided the noises it makes were too much for her. Since it is a slightly different size, it took about two hours to get it installed, and then it worked about 10 minutes before the air circulation fan in it died, spinning slower and slower and slower and finally stopping. Compressor still works nice, but no good if the fan doesn't move the air thru the coils (external ones to remove the heat from the unit, and internal ones to remove the heat from the room).

I messed with it for another hour or so, but I can't figure out why the motor is acting like this. It did not recover after cooling off, either. Freely spins by hand. I dunno. It's a sealed motor and I can't open it up. I pondered a few ways of driving the shaft by a belt to another motor, a friction drive to the squirrel-cage fan inside, and other things, but I just don't have the time to do any of them since again I have to get to sleep so I can get up for work in the morning. :(

I ended up disconnecting the internal motor entirely, but physically leaving it in place since I don't have time to take it all out of the window a third time. So now I have lashed a big box fan to the outside, running it's extension cord thru the window alongside the AC unit, and that pulls air thru the external coils to cool them off. That works really well, so well that with no air flowing thru the internal coils, they actually freeze moisture out of the air in about a minute.

Since it doesn't do any good to just freeze the air right at the coils, I had to find a fan small enough to fit over them but powerful enough to move some serious air thru them. I somewhere around here have some nice big muffin fans that run on wall power just like the box fan, but of course I can't find them. So I had to use a 48VDC version of that kind of fan, which will actually run on quite a bit lower voltage, fortunately. But not low enough to run on any simple wall-wart I had laying around. Had to use the other ebike battery pack, the 36V 9Ah NiMH pack I used to use on DayGlo Avenger. I charged it up (was already almost full) and it is now running the fan, and hopefully will last thru my sleeping, assuming I get to do so.

It's REALLY REALLLY loud, like a vacuum cleaner a foot from your head. :( I routinely use fans for white noise to help me sleep, but this is not the same kind of noise, and is really annoying. I have a lot of trouble with annoying noises, they actually make me angry and I have to work at it to get past that and try to ignore them (usually not possible, but I try really hard).

Since the room got up to about 100F during the day while I was gone, it's going to take a long time to cool down. It's finally down to 84F now, so at least I'm not sweating to death or anything. But the bed (waterbed) and walls and stuff are all still a lot warmer than 84F, probably mid-90s, and it's going to be a while for them to cool enough to let the air really cool down enough so that the AC unit can shut off periodically. It's been running constantly for not quite an hour, I guess. Might be more; I lost track fo time a while ago, since my brain is melted from heat and lack of sleep.

And I am still tired and will need to calm down before I can actually sleep. Hopefully posting this will be cathartic and I'll stop having it go round in my head constantly. :)


Tomorrow after I get off work, I guess I will be figuring out a way to hack the fan motor out of the dead-compressor unit into this one. They're similar but not identical, and they don't even have the same number of wires. I can figure it out, but it is going to take a while, and I will have to have the units both apart (and no AC running, of course) while I do it. :(

If I had the money I would just go buy a new unit. I am that miserable and tired of all this that I am ready to buy something new instead of recycling and repurposing old stuff for it. :(

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Aug 06, 2010 11:14 pm

Was so hot today that the bike motor controller blew up again, same way as before (sizzling capacitors, boiling out their electrolyte), about 1/4 mile from the house on my way to work around midday today. I got there in time despite only being able to pedal about 8MPH (as opposed to the 20 I can go with the motor + pedalling, without breaking too much of a sweat), but I was drenched and very close to being sick from the heat. Had to take my ice bottle I keep with me for spare water and hold it between my arms against my chest to bring my core temperature back down quickly; took about 10 minutes to get to just panting and sweating (from feeling like I was about to die).


I *had* planned to bike to K-mart nearby to checkout air conditioners to see what kind of money I'll need to save, but that's out now. Tonite was going to be spent on fixing the AC unit but now it has to be spent fixing the bike and figuring out a way to "heat proof" it.

Pointless babble below:

When I got home my crazy sister had left the front door open just a little bit (letting in the 104F air and letting out what could've been 85F air if she hadn't done that), and had lights on all over (wasting money on the electric power for them plus the A/C let out), and was washing her hair in the kitchen sink, again, after many discussions about not doing that because she always clogs it up with her hair.

Then I go to let the dogs out, and see muddy tracks in teh back room (not all that unusual, except that I haven't let them out yet), and there is a bucket full of soapy bleachy water that already has some of it gone and muddy footprints all around it so obviously the dogs have already been outside while it's there and they've been drinking from it, before I got home.

Crazy sister found the bucket in the alley and was washing it, she says, and thought the dogs "knew bleach was bad for them". :roll: Yeah, sure, they can read ALL the warning labels! :evil:

Plus, she's not supposed to let them out at all, because she doesn't seem capable of distinguishing whether they are back in or not when she closes the door and leaves the house, so they could get locked outside and die of the heat. (since she has many times "put away" the big pot I have out there for their outside water, even though of course she well knows it is THEIR WATER)

And as I sit here typing this, the A/C unit quits. Just shuts off. Great. I went out to check it and the box fan outside the A/C unit keeping it cool has died, and the A/C compressor overheated and shut off. I hosed it down to cool it off (too hot to touch even on the outside of the A/C unit) and waited another few minutes, turned it on for a moment, and the compressor does at least startup, but now I haven't got anything that will keep the air flowing thru the external coils.

I can put a sprinkler on it that will keep it wet that may help some, but it's not enough unless I have so much water going that it floods the front yard.

I've now dug up up those little computer/server fans (actually these are from an old Sony 1" studio VTR) and will put some of them on the external coils. Then I can hopefully be able to wait until it is cool enough long enough (a day or possibly two, dependng on fabrication time and if I have to also work those days) that I can live without any A/C long enough to take both of them apart and make one working unit out of them both. For tonite, I have to at least make the thing work well enough for me to have some A/C, as it was already getting almost 90F in here, and was still 100F outside and nearly dark! Now it's 95F out there *and* in here. :(

Then I still have to fix the bike. At least I have most of tomorrow and Sunday off.

I can't seem to get a break. :( Oh, well, I'm getting used to it. :P

EDIT: actually, I guess I might get a little break--a friend has a "standalone" AC unit that uses a dryer-hose type air vent to the outisde for the waste heat, that may help in the meantime. But we have to dig it out of a densely-packed outdoor storage unit in the middle of the day tomorrow. :roll:

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Aug 07, 2010 1:37 am

Well, at least until the fans melt, I have A/C:
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If it is cool enough tomorrow then I will put them inside the A/C housing, behind the coils, so they can push air across them and not be heated by the air from the coils (which is at least 125F at the *backside* of the fans, possibly higher).

But I have to take the whole thing out of the window to get the case off to do it, and by itself that's probably 20-30 minutes. :( Then another hour or two to get the whole original fan out and seal off the inside from outside again, and mount the fans inside. Then at least that same 20-30 minutes to put it back in the window, probably twice that since I'll be tired and hot by then. Oh, well, what has to be done has to be done.

It's possible that the fan motor and electronics from the newer dead one will fit right into the old one, but that's unlikely. If it did, I could just stick it in, and be done with it (I hope).


THis is the inside fan that runs on 48VDC (since I had to use the other fans on the outside).
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On the right edge of the pic is another fan hanging there to push the air directly at me, and for when the AC isn't working.

THe bike battery is just to the right of that fan, on the windowsill.
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I just charge it before I go to sleep and before I leave and it ought to run the fan fine for as long as I need. I don't want to leave the charger on it, but it'll be fine. Fan only uses about 600mA (rated at 700mA on the label, but it doesn't draw that at these voltages), so it should run for quite some time, at least 10-12 hours, before the pack gets anywhere near LVC levels.


We'll see how it works over the next few hours/etc, but at least for the moment I'm not melting. :)
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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by karma » Aug 07, 2010 1:51 am

pics of the controller? :wink:

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Aug 07, 2010 3:23 am

Yeah, well, those will come. I'm still trying to cool off; I fell asleep a while ago (more like passed out I think) when I finally got to sit down after the A/C was working, and I am still not very awake (but I can't sleep now). Also the camera battery is charging. Well, probably charged by now since i stuck in there before i sat down.

Oh, and the controller actively shorts the battery but not a dead short, as it doesn't blow the fuse. (40A? I forget). Just brings the LED meter down to "dead" and dimly lights up the "dead" light. All while sizzling of course. So it had to be left disconnected from the battery.

ok, maybe i will sleep a little, dozed off twice writing this. :(

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Aug 08, 2010 1:52 am

First, pics of the controller. Really, I dont' see any problem, just like before. I'll have to take the caps out and test them, or just replace them. Then retest and see if anything else got toasted.
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The rest of the post is about the A/C stuff and my transporter console:

The external fan solution with those four little fans worked great for most of the night, even while it was raining. I thought they would die from the rain, but they did not have any trouble at all, as far as I can tell. WOrked better actually, because of the cooling the rain did on the coils, keeping the fans from getting hot. Didn't freeze up like the previous (Goldstar) unit did when raining, though. So either it doesn't have as great a differential as the Goldstar or else that 48V fan has such a great airflow thru the internal coils that the coils don't have a chance to collect enough moisture to freeze it. Either way, it does work in rain, at least.

But...after daybreak the unit kept stopping the compressor, presumably from overheating (>150F air at the fans). I don't have the patience anymore in this heat to keep re-fixing it; I've *got* to get the bike fixed, too, and other stuff...and I can't wait for whatever programs there are for this kind of thing to figure out if I'm worthy, once I find them and fill out whatever paperwork they have (seems to always take these kinds of places weeks, if they even ever get back to me).

So today while helping a friend move my transporter console
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back here so I can build a new base for it and do some other fixing for it to be displayed at Coppercon next month,
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Click for closeup of the funny sticker on the end:
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we also looked at a few places for new A/C units. Prices for one similar to what I already had was about $100; 5,000BTU. But I found a Kenmore display model on clearance at Sears for a 10,000BTU unit for $131 (was $200 originally). Faceplate was falling off, and they said there wasnt' any paperwork or remote for it, but I didn't care, that's a lot of cooling power for the price, from what I could find, and I need as much as I can get.
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Obviously I don't care what things look like as long as they work. :) (I had to mount it in my bedroom's bathroom window rather than the bedroom proper, and remove the door from the bathroom so air can flow freely between the two. Currently just a regular table fan is helping force air circulation between the two, but I'll make a duct to do this later, for more efficient air circulation).

Paying for it, well, it'll come out of all the other household budget sections this month and I'll have to catch up next month or the one after that, hopefully. (if I can keep up the hours at work it won't take all that long, I hope).
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For now it is nearly mounted correctly in the window, but is not fully secure, so I left a rack cabinet from an old HP tape drive system (wish I had the drive--they have kickass motors in them) under it to help hold it up until I finish securing it tomorrow (or whenever I finally have the time and am not melting or exhausted).
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Since the tape drive that was in it is VERY heavy and is all within the front foot or less of the rack, in the top half (where it's open in the pic), there is a MASSIVE ballast bolted to the bottom of the rack in back, which is as heavy as the whole rest of the cabinet, and two extendable legs with adjustable feet that stick out the front, to keep it from tipping over. I used those legs/feet with their screw-in tips to force the cabinet to push against the wall and not roll around.

Turns out they did have the remote for it, and the paperwork, and brought it down to the pick-up dock with the unit to load it in my friend's truck (had to cheat like this because I haven't had the chance to fix the bike's controller yet, and it's too hot for me to haul the trailer plus ~70lbs of A/C unit plus the bike (even if I take the motor and stuff off) if I am only pedalling. I'm just not healthy enough anymore, though I am slowly getting better.


Now for the interesting part. The remote looked oddly familiar, though untl I got home I did not realize why. It is identical to the remote for the Goldstar unit that died, except it doesn't have as many buttons:
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The old Goldstar remote operates the new Kenmore A/C unit, too. The Goldstar is several years old, so that's actually a surprise to me, even though it is evident that LG (inheritors of Goldstar's technology) built both of them, years apart. The interior design, layout, and parts choices are virtually identical, too. I think the Goldstar was a great unit, lasted for years, so I have hopes that the Kenmore will as well, based on what I see of it.

Maybe if I am clever enough, now that I have a working unit in the Kenmore, I can now take both the Goldstar and the other unit and combine them to make one working unit, using the Goldstar's controls and electronics if possible.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by karma » Aug 08, 2010 2:35 am

good deal on the air unit. love the console :lol:

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Aug 08, 2010 2:47 am

It's my favorite prop of all the ones I've ever built. I think the tricorder (which I don't have anymore after it blew up) was my second favorite. My third is that crazy giant ugly gun made from a crutch and stuff, which I've still got around here somewhere.

It was also fun to make; it's nearly the only project I've ever been able to do *with* someone else, actually working side by side with them on it, over about a month. And the cool factor vs cost/complexity ration is HUGE, too. :)

The little cases on it's base are the very same kind they used on the show itself, but only one is painted similar to theirs (the gray one). The other two I had made before they had actually used them on the show; I had found these 30- and 15- cassette carrying cases at KMart and just thought they'd make cool cases for some of my little props.

The gun in front of the cases is made from a grip off a paintball gun, and I think part of a barrel from one, with some cases off Panasonic camcorder batteries for the rear part of the gun, and some other bits of junk, and all painted black.

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Re: Amberwolf's DayGlo Avenger, MkII

Post by amberwolf » Aug 10, 2010 1:38 am

Well, with all the stuff that's been happening this weekend (mostly dealing with my crazy schizo sister) I never got the controller fixed (still digging thru my stuff for compatible capacitors--since I seem to have misplaced my DMM with capacitance tester I am just going to replace the main ones again and see if it works).

So today I put the Fusin hub/wheel back on, and then remembered that I had yet to get the bent rim fixed. :roll: Well, I had to live with it if I wanted motor assist to work, so I just did what I could with the rim and got it another 1/8" back toward true, but I really need to take the wheel apart to fix this, and replace the rim, since I probably can't rebend it back enough to let the spokes true it the rest of the way.

Also, because I did not have a spoke tool with me when the original accident happened, I screwed up a few of the nipples with my little pliers I had to use at the time, so the spoke tool won't work on them. Today I used a flatblade screwdriver for part of adjusting them, but some need to be turned so tighly that the screwdriver slipped and tore up the slot. :roll: I can dremel a slot 90° to the original to continue, but if I toast that one too then I'd have to use pliers just to remove the nipples.

I don't have any other 12-gauge nipples to replace them with, except maybe the ones on the 9C wheel, which I don't want to mess with since that wheel is fine, true, and works. (just the controller doesn't, at the moment). So it's possible that when I do rebuild this wheel, I'll have to use regular bike spokes and nipples to replace those specific ones, if I have any the right length, since I may not be able to properly tension the spokes with the damaged nipples.

I'm considering splicing the 9C into the Fusin's controller harness but I am not sure how well the Fusin will run the 9C and am afraid I might toast the Fusin controller, too. Then the only spares I will have are some old analog Crystalyte controllers (which I think are pedal first? can't remember) that should work, but which I'd need to figure out the wiring for phase/halls.


More fun about to happen, too, since on my way home from work the main lights started flickering, then the power meter went to "dead", with no motor response from the Fusin. I thought it was the controller, but it wasn't. Then I thought maybe the DC-DC failed internally and was shorting the pack, but that wasnt' it. Turned out there is something intermittent in the 13Ah NiMH pack, probably in my kluged add-on harness to it--under vibration it'll come back, but only for an instant.

I couldnt' get it to come back permanently while on the road, so I had to wait till I got home to verify, and it does work ok with my 9Ah pack (the one being used on the kluged-together A/C unit until Saturday). So now I get to take the 13Ah NiMH pack apart to fix, too, starting with my wiring, being the most likely place for failure.

Fortunately riding home was at night, and a little cooler than daytime, (waaaay cooler than it was at midday when the other controller died on the way *to* work). Plus the Fusin has nowhere near the cogging resistance that the 9C does, even though I have disabled the freewheeling in it. Enough to notice, but not enough to cause me grief trying to pedal it.

With the 9C, I had to shift to the granny ring in front to even get going from a stop, and barely could go halfway up the scale of rear gears even when going (yes, I am a wuss; my knees hurt too much and I am not strong enough). With the Fusin I could actually start from the two lowest rear gears when on the largest front ring, but could use the full range of rear gears when on the middle ring.

So the Fusin is a blessing for a few reasons. :) If only I hadn't bent the rim. :(


Now I've got to (probably unsuccessfully) try to get *some* sleep before opening shift at work tomorrow early morning (after having closing shift tonight). So no progress on anything till tomorrow after work at the earliest.

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