2WD Semi-Recumbent Recycled-Parts Cargo eBike: "CrazyBike2"

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Re: Semi-Recumbent Recycled-Parts Cargo eBike: "CrazyBike2"

Post by amberwolf » Oct 25, 2010 1:48 am

Still no solution for the spokes, but fate found me a rim (two, actualy, but i'd rather leave the front intact):
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It's a heavy Chinese-steel Mongoose, built for light punishment from the bracing on the frame, I guess. Walked into Goodwill with a couple of friends and I went straight back to the area bike stuff would be, and there it was. Flat tires, but don't care since they're knobbies anyway. Appear to be original tires and in good shape, but Bell innertubes with sunrotted plastic Bell valve caps.

What really caught my eye was the front disc brake:
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and it's suspension fork, which is threadless, too. It's a cheap fork, just spring/elastomer, not adjustable, but it does have the disc caliper mounts on it (doesn't have rim brake bosses, though).

If I get the old motor system or some other non-front-wheel motor working in CB2, I'll probably move this whole fork and wheel onto CB2 to get front disc on it easy. I'd change out the small disc on this for one that AussieJester sent me, or one of the others I've been accumulating (depends on what best fits), and maybe change the calipers to a different set just to see what different ones are like.


The hub is nearly identical to the one I started lacing into a wheel before but didn't have the right length spokes for.
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Disc itself appears very slightly bent, as it rubs just a tiny bit for part of it's revolution on the caliper. I didnt' try adjusting it yet but it slows the bike very quickly, though it doesnt' lockup the wheel when riding (it will from a standstill, though).

Just regular Vbrakes on the back, but they are good enough to lockup the wheel even from about 15MPH (fastest I could pedal it to after airing up the tires).
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Also a decent aluminum rear rack I can put on The Velcro Eclipse as it looks nice enough, much better than the flimsy thing on TVE right now.

Kickstand is probably too short to go on TVE but might work on CB2 for when I don't have the cargo pods on it (but might just break from the weight instead).

The wheels are both aluminum rims, 36-hole. Both are very true, as well, not something generally found on thriftstore bikes. The derailers and such need adjusting and lube as tehy won't shift into various gears properly, or into the highest one in front at all.

Cranks are steel, square-taper, swaged to the 48/38/28 chainrings. Rear cassette is a 7speed but I didn't check to see what range.


Oh, and this is what the 9C/GM hub would look like in the 24" wheel if I could get it to lace up:
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That's next to the 26" 9C on DGA.

Next to the 24" fusin on CB2:
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Tire is same kind as on CB2, no tube and not inflated.

Also found a Nutcase helmet:
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Might not keep the paintjob but it sure is easy to notice. ;)

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Re: Semi-Recumbent Recycled-Parts Cargo eBike: "CrazyBike2"

Post by amberwolf » Oct 29, 2010 9:48 pm

I'm still trying to work out a way to get the 9C/GM into a 24" wheel that will fit on CrazyBike2. Even with steel washers, the short kids' bikes' spokes I have just wont' cut it--they break trying to tension it, much less true it and ride it. :roll: I am still looking for my small round file to oval out the rim's nipple holes to be able to use the larger/longer ones, since their angle is so much greater there is no other way to do it.

I am sorely tempted to just stick a 26" fork in front instead of the 24", and use the 9C off DayGlo Avenger, but that'll change all the steering angles and stuff, too, so I don't know how well I'll adjust to the steering this late in the game. At this point I'm pretty sure I'm just going to do this. Maybe if I use a non-shock fork I can keep it down to a lower height and closer to the original rake/etc. (if possible I'd actually like to get a more vertical rake, as it would help with low-speed steering stability, always a problem on this bike).


Right now I stopped on that to let my mind ponder, and am about to go back to working on wiring up the TS60Ah cells so I can use them as part of a pack, with (hopefully) the NiMH as 3P 24V or 2P 36V on top of that, using some big fat stud diodes out of really old teletype power supplies to isolate them from each other. Only problem with the diodes is that it'll prevent regen braking, which I was kinda hoping to use to help me stop, as I only have a front rim brake otherwise. No rear brakes (no time to make and fit anything).


Earlier I went with a friend for lunch (his treat for me helping him bleed his motorcycle brakes), and we stoped at Savers thrift store on the way home, where I found this interesting bike waiting for me:
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It's a Nishiki, Japanese but made in Taiwan. "Pinnacle" model. "Cunningham Design". Very light, perhaps lighter than The Velcro Eclipse started out as. A bit taller than I'd like the frame to be, but doesn't seem as tall as the Schwinn Sierra that I'd love if it were only a few inches shorter. :(
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It's all Cromoly, double-butted 4130. Not sure what the Tange MTB means.
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The fork isn't suspension, but that's ok, neither is The Velcro Eclipse.
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The rims are really nice compared to anything I've had before. Araya M-20, made in Japan,
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They're double-walled (no eyelets), and anodised an interesting green.
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Fascinatingly, they have BioPace ovoid cranks on them! They're silver instead of black like my other ones, and are an odd size--26-36-46 (instead of 28-38-48 like my other two, or 24-34-44 like all the other MTB and road bike stuff I've got)
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Deore XT V-brakes, without much wear on the pads (or rims, for that matter).
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Deore XT 7s (and 3s on the left) shifter, switchable between SIS and friction. Just like the ones already on CrazyBike2, and also on the Schwinn Sierra. The Shimano brake levers are all steel AFAICT, and have the rubber dust hoods still on them, not even sunrotted. Grips are ok, though they are on essentially flat bars so I don't like the bars much.
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Deore XT derailer, similar to what's on the Schwinn Sierra. A bit dirty but doesnt' look very worn. Interestingly it has Shimano SIS branded "sealed SP" cable housing. I've never seen any branding on cable housings before.
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Has a Vetta "Innovator C-100" cycle computer with dead batteries, and a cracked mount (easily fixed). Never had a cycle computer before, so it should make a nice simple speedo replacement for the VeloAce PDA until I get the Cycle Analyst fixed. I probably have batteries for this thing somewhere. Maybe in a laser pointer I use for the dogs to chase around sometimes, if I can find where I left it. :)
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It's sensor attempts to be aero, and it's magnet has a nice secure mount on the spokes, no vibration or flop. Also interesting is the retainer for the quick-release axle--it has a place (unused) to bolt thru into the front fender/rack mount.
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Seat is a narrow saddle, and I suspect not original (but don't know), called "Serfas Reactive" "Deep Groove Design". It's a gel seat, and is comfy enough for the five seconds I sat on it just to check it out. :) More interesting is the underseat bag, which actually had something besides leaves or lint in it (almost always these things are cleaned out by shoplifters/etc before I ever even see the bikes at the stores).
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This is what was in there--a "Rema Tip Top Mountain Bike ATB" repair kit. Made in Germany. All the contents appear original, although there's no way I can see to fit all four of the tire levers in there (also made in Germany), so I expect they are from a second kit no longer with the bike. What is most interesting is the two unused CO2 canisters plus the dark green tube-ish object. It is a schrader/presta adapter for those canisters. The two things below it are the adapters for each valve type. To the right are the valve cap/core remover, and a spare schrader and presta valve cap, and a spare valve core. The patches are in teh bag below, and the adhesive to the left (I didn't check to se if it's opened or not).
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The only real flaw in the bike is the horribly rotted out tires, which are totally not in keeping with the rest of the bike. The part where they obviously sat for a long time in one place are so rotted I can stick my fingers thru them:
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I really don't get how they could be so bad when the rest of the rubber and plastics are not--it certainly didn't sit in the sun to rot like this. Maybe just a problem with the actual rubber they were made of? Kinda spooky, because it makes me think of the original Andromeda Strain. :lol:

The other thing I found while there is something I've meant to get for a while now and forget every time:
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Knee/shin guards that also have calf protection. Might be a hair big for my skinny legs, but way better than what I had before, with better/more padding. Hopefully I will not actually test them tomorrow. :)

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Re: Semi-Recumbent Recycled-Parts Cargo eBike: "CrazyBike2"

Post by amberwolf » Oct 31, 2010 3:32 pm

Night before the race, I managed to barely get it functional, but didn't have time for making the TS interconnects and wiring up at least a basic LVC warning for at least one cell, plus I wasn't sure the bike would take the extra 45lbs or so of the TS cells plus mountings, along with all that NiMH and my cargo pods full of stuff for the trip. I also didnt' have time to actually road test it, as I was so tired that I did not think I could safely ride without at least a quick nap. As there was only a couple of hours before I had to leave to catch the light rail at that point, I had to just accept it working or not once I woke up. :?

With my race gear piled up on the seat, and the 12V lighting pack still charging, here's the pic from just before my nap:
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Almost all of my NiMH is on there.
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The green 2x 24V 13Ah, the white-wrapped-in-blue 12V 13Ah, and behind and to the right of them the 36V 9Ah:
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It's a bit hard to see in the left of the pic above, but the recnetly-fixed 12FET is strapped to the side of the also-recently-fixed 18FET, on teh top tube of the front frame. They clear the pedals and cranks by a few mm.

Since I had some batteries saved from something, I was able to power up that Vetta cycle computer, and found instructions for it on Sheldon Brown's site. :) So on it went:
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Yes, that is a tire burn mark on the carpet barely visible next to the bike on the right. :( I'll have to firgure out how to get that out. I hit the throttle while leaning teh bike over the other way to take the picture. :roll: Almost ran over one of the dogs before I grabbed the brake. Plenty of power in there. :)

The forks I ended up choosing due to height were the skinny but well-made and strong ones off the Schwinn Sierra. I actually wanted to use the Nishiki becuse they had slightly better dropouts and overall shape, but the steerer tube is not long enough to work on this frame. I considered strongly the crappy shock forks from a freeby bike but I can actually grab the two legs in my hands and twist them, deforming the U-bar across them that holds the brake studs. :roll: I decided that wouldn't be good enough with the stresses I'd put on it, though later after riding I began wishing I *had* used it. The dropouts on the Sierra fork are just too small and there isnt' enough surface for hte washers and nuts to grab, so the wheel nearly spun out first time I got on. (see below).

I had to move the turn signals along with some realy flimsy aluminum strip mounts to the frame itself instead of the fork, as the original mounts are welded to the 24" shock fork with the Fusin on it. Turns out later that was a good thing, as it saved the right one from destruction on the track. :)

The 9C ended up as the only motor I took due to weight and space, I didn't think it was a good idea to add more weight since it was unlikely I'd fry the motor.
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I considered swapping for Icecube's drilled-out covers and the GM stator, but ended up not doing it mostly due to time limits and being so tired I thought I'd make a stupid mistake that would end the whole trip before it began, since I now had evertything actually working at this point.

Nappy time....


Then race day, partially crossposted from the halloween race thread:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 81#p328381

Evoforce and two non-ES friends of his picked me up at the far end of the light rail, and we headed off for a long trip to Tucson from the Valley.
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The trip itself was interesting and fun, although it was difficult at times to keep from nodding off (I knew if I did I'd feel worse than if I just stayed awake, as I'd only gotten an hour and a half or so of sleep). On the way, I was relacing Evoforce's main bike wheel into a new rim, which had a pretty destroyed rim that I wouldn't have wanted to let anyone ride on. The lacing went well enough, but with the tire and tube sitting upright on the floor in front of the seats we were in, I somehow managed to drop one of the old spokes in there which neither of us noticed as we put the wheel back together later, and it gave him a flat we didn't really have time to fix, essentially putting his main bike out of the race. :( :oops:

When we arrived at the track there wasn't anyone there, because we didn't quite go far enough down the road. His friends rode a couple of his bikes up and down the road, and had a lot of fun--EV grins all around. ;) He and I finished a basic truing of the wheel on the bike, reassembled the bike and eventually we all went to the correct track, after his friends came back to let us know our problem. :)

I didn't end up in the race itself, as after riding the track I found two things, one of which I already knew:

--I don't have very good reaction times, which leads to poor control over a fast machine, especially since I have trouble telling how fast I am actually going once I get past speeds I usually ride at (below 20mph).

--Crazybike2 is not the easiest to steer at high speeds unless you lean it WAAAAAAAY over. Which works perfectly fine on the paved track surface, which is pretty sticky even with the crappy tires on CB2. But just touch the gravel/dirt at the edge of the track with your rear tire and that lean is now a slide with a dust cloud to rival an experimental fighter jet plowing into the desert at mach five. :lol: :roll: :oops:


Since I was wearing those new-to-me hockey leg guards, with plastic side covers and all that padding, and I was smart enough to just keep holding the bars instead of trying to reach out, I didn't get any injuries, but it did tear the kneepad leather pretty good.
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If I hadn't been wearing them it would've *at least* taken the skin off my knee, and quite likely a lot worse. :shock: Other than a lot of dust and dirt in my face I was otherwise fine. As it happens, it was a good thin I did not bring or use the ventilated side covers from Icecube's 9C/GM, or the motor would've been fillled iwth dirt and gravel at that point, as the front wheel on that side dug itself in fairly well, with dirt packed into the threads and whatnot, and up between the washers/etc, as well as on the side cover. :lol:

The bike itself was mostly unhurt, though it ended up doing something to the brakes that later caused me another near-crash, at the opposite end on the other tight curve past the straightaway, just past the pit exit/track entrance. The left side brake (opposite side of the crash) dived under the rim and stuck in a way that left me with no braking power but also no motor power for some reason, and fortunately didn't reach the spokes. I ended up choosing to continue straight-line into the gravel with my feet out flintstone-style for brakes, and I still slid at least 15 feet before stopping, but upright this time. I took it back to the pits to figure out what went wrong and fix it.

I ended up being unsure enough of it's mechanical reliablity and my own handling ability to not go on to the heats or race, but I think I would like to do this again come springtime. :)

At one point in the practice, I got it up to 31.5MPH on the straight,
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at only 60V of damaged NiMH F-cells; I bet if I had done what I wanted to and put the 32V of TS60Ah cells in there, and paralleled the NiMH for 36V more, I could've gotten at least 5MPH more out of that, because the voltage drop on these NiMH is pretty bad at the high current drains I was probably getting.

I have no wattmeter data because I still had the large multipole andersons on the WU I brougth with me and totally forgot to pull one of the TWMs with the small andersons off DayGlo Avenger before I left home (I remembered halfway to the light rail but it was way too late by then). I really wanted to know what performace I got out of it but I guess that'll happen next time. :(

For the trip up there, I had the cargo pods on, stuffed with my gear and extra parts I might blow up and tools, so it was pretty heavy. It was on 48V for that trip, with the traction pack of 2x 24V NiMH packs from Ianmcnally, and a signal lighting pack of 12V NiMH made of half the 24V pack from Deardancer. A 36V D-cell NiMH from Deardancer ran my CFL lighting only becuase I did nto have time to change it's connector from Multipole to Powerpole (liek the WU); I had also intended to try that one in series with all the others to see what speed I could get but ended up not trying it out because I was afraid of ripping the motor out of the fork dropouts already. :lol:

The light rail trip was interesting, as I have pondered but never actually taken CB2 on it. It is too long to do what I originally thought to do, which is stand between the doors; instead it must be put along the seats to one side and placed so that one side's cargo pod is in the "well" where the seats fold up for wheelchairs and the like. THis means that on busy times I probably could not ride the rail with it. Also, I can only ride the rail from end to end, and never get on or off at any other station, because they do not stop long enough to get the bike to or from that position (it takes over 2 minutes, maybe 3 or 4), and there's no way I could maneuver it while they're accelerating or decelerating, even though they have finally figured out that they don't need to gun the throttle or slam on the brakes, at least, so it's much gentler than before.
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I was actually able to ride the whole way just seated on CB2, kicked back and relaxing, trying to not fall asleep. :lol: Being pulled back and forth by the braking/starting helped keep me awake, as even with the brakes on, CB2 slid a little bit with each start and stop. The pic shows the Fusin wheel Dogman brought for me, on my trip home. I forgot to take a pic on the way there. Wish I had thought to ask someone to take a pic of me on the bike while on the train.

For the track, I took off the cargo pods,
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and hooked up the NiMH in series for 60V, 2x 24V plus 12V, all F-cell.
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THe controller used for everything was the 12FET from Ianmcnally that I think had been hooked up backwards to power and blew the caps and melted shunts, so I have no real idea what it's current limit was, since the replacement shunts I used are probably 1/2 to 1/3 of the original ones, at a guess. (I dont' know what the originals were, or even for sure what the new ones are, just what the PCB was marked next to them on the blown analog controller I pulled them from). The controller didn't even get warm, though, probably becuase it's mounted along the side of the front top tube, with it's front end open and the FET side up with lots of airflow. :) The motor was a little warm after my practice runs, but not much. Probably the same as my regular commuting with it on DGA.

I never needed to use the Methods controller I had on there, originally there as a backup but also to try with all the NiMH in series.

I couldn't trust the dropouts of the tiny fork I ended up using to hold the motor, after several times (on the trip to the light rail and on the track) of having the motor begin to come out of them when I pushed the throttle down too quickly, instead of gradually. Even what I would normally call gradual still required me to pedal a lot at starts from stops to keep it from coming out. When I first powered it up on the road outside my front door, I almost spun it out of the fork! I had not realized it would be such a problem at only 48V, but it is. Even the torque arm wouldn't keep it in the dropouts, becuse it is not designed for this shape of fork. :( I think it might actually have made the problem worse. I had to go back in the house to get a big wrench that I could use easily and quickly to put it back if it were to happen again (as I was pretty sure it would).

While the heats and race were going on, I charged my batteries at Dogman's generator
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so I'd have them full for the trip home from the end of the light rail. It took the better part of all that time to finish charging, so if anyone knows how long that was (I forgot to check) then I can guesstimate how much power I used. ;)

I'm only sorry that I did not take more pictures (forgot I had the camera with me until too late for a lot of stuff), and that I chickened out on actually trying to race. But hopefully there will be a next time when I am better prepared. ;)

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Re: Semi-Recumbent Recycled-Parts Cargo eBike: "CrazyBike2"

Post by rebelpilot » Oct 31, 2010 4:19 pm

Great account of the race and prep. I'm glad you were wearing proper protection and were not injured.
The Nishiki looks like a good find. The Shimano Deore XT equipment from that era was really strong and durable, as were the Tange double butted tubes.
I had a Bianchi Grizzly that had the same components (more aggressive, short chain stay, hill climber frame), those araya rm-20 rims took a lot of abuse (hard trail riding and jumping) and stayed true. The grizzly even had the same biopace rings, but it's been so long I don't recall the strong/weak points.

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Re: Semi-Recumbent Recycled-Parts Cargo eBike: "CrazyBike2"

Post by amberwolf » Oct 31, 2010 5:46 pm

Good to know about the rims, especially--I am considering using them on the next cargo bike. I might just leave the Nishiki as it is except for sticking a Fusin in there, though, possibly as a mid-drive (since I have one now that is not in a wheel at all), with some minimal battery in the triangle, and stick that Mongoose's rack on it. I'm pretty sure the Nishiki is a better bike than The Velcro Eclipse's core Eclipse bike, so if once I fix up some tires on it and try it out, if it fits me well enough, I'll make it a spare bike, too. :)

I'm definitely glad of those knee pads. :) I've been saved by my gear even just road-riding/commuting before, so I already know it's value.

Interesting about the Bianchi being essentially the same stuff--I wonder if both were made by the same company, and just branded differently? Seems a common practice.

Biopace rings seem to have been unpopular, but I do not know why--they do help *me*, at least. A major weak point is that any ovoid ring is going to cause the chain length to grow and shrink, relative to the slack to take up in the rear derailer. That means that it's going to get sloppy during the part of the cycle where cranks are level and only half of the long side of the ring is engaged to chain, and so takes less chain up. When cranking fast enough, going over bumps, I can imagine this causing problems with chain-slap noise even if it never derails because of it. Wouldnt' bother me but I can see it doing so for others.

Major strong point is the ability to get more cranking force at the points of the cycle where your leg is weakest, and going faster thru the other parts of the cycle where your leg is strongest. For me it takes some load off of them, too, cuasing less knee pain.

I haven't tried them on CrazyBike2 yet, but i have this feeling that they will not be at the right angle to work as they are, and will have to have the rings rotated relative to the spiders by one or two legs; not sure which direction though.

Well, now I need to go move the 9C back to DayGlo Avenger, or change the forks out on CrazyBike2. Also, take the extra batteries and controller off CB2, and see about finishing the TS60Ah pack for it, so I don't have to worry about overdrawing the NiMH (the controller I'm using on it doesn't have a known current limit, and I dont' know how much it's pulling, either--I suspect a lot more than I ought to be putting them thru).

Oh--another change made on CB2 while in Tucson is the taillight/brake/turn signals--note in the pictures above where you can see them that they are moved to the back of the seat bar, where I had them before. I moved them up there now so I can take the cargo pods off without affecting the rear lighting, and simplifying it from redoing a bunch of wiring, mounting lights, etc, down to just 3 bolts per pod to remove them. Even simpler eventually, to a cotter-pin arrangement like many motorcycle pods have, removable only from inside the pod so it can be left locked and secure.

This means that I can take off one pod, too, to make the bike smaller for my normal work commutes, using only the left side lockable pod rather like DayGlo Avenger. Makes it easier to park inside. :)

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Re: Semi-Recumbent Recycled-Parts Cargo eBike: "CrazyBike2"

Post by rebelpilot » Oct 31, 2010 8:21 pm

amberwolf wrote: Biopace rings ..... When cranking fast enough, going over bumps, I can imagine this causing problems with chain-slap noise even if it never derails because of it. Wouldnt' bother me but I can see it doing so for others.

Major strong point is the ability to get more cranking force at the points of the cycle where your leg is weakest, and going faster thru the other parts of the cycle where your leg is strongest. For me it takes some load off of them, too, cuasing less knee pain.
Thanks for the refresher, now I recall off-road the chain slap was a problem (it did derail), but the hill climbing was good (unless extremely technical).
(the controller I'm using on it doesn't have a known current limit, and I dont' know how much it's pulling, either--I suspect a lot more than I ought to be putting them thru).
Have you started using your CA yet?

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Re: Semi-Recumbent Recycled-Parts Cargo eBike: "CrazyBike2"

Post by amberwolf » Nov 01, 2010 12:50 am

rebelpilot wrote:
(the controller I'm using on it doesn't have a known current limit, and I dont' know how much it's pulling, either--I suspect a lot more than I ought to be putting them thru).
Have you started using your CA yet?
I don't have it fixed yet. I keep getting pulled away from looking thru my parts for the right transistor and such, those times I actually remember to go looking for them. :lol: I meant to do it last week, to fix it for the race so I could monitor even the full stack of NiMH plus TS cells, etc.

I could fix it easily enough with various lower-voltage non-SMT transistors that I have plenty of, but that wouldnt' help with higher votlage packs. :) So I have been looking as I have time and remember for the right >100V transistor I'm sure is in at least a few pieces of salvaged stuff somewhere.

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Re: Semi-Recumbent Recycled-Parts Cargo eBike: "CrazyBike2"

Post by amberwolf » Nov 02, 2010 12:47 am

You know, the one thing I regret about going to the race is now when I am on the road with CB2, I am hard pressed to keep from full-throttle all the time, and wanting to series the packs up to 60V again. :lol: 72V was kinda scary on DayGlo Avenger, but 60V was just plain fun on CB2, and I'm sorely tempted to try 24V + 24V + 12V + 36V on there, and hope not to blow up the 100V 18FET or rip my front fork off. :lol:

Fortunately there isnt' anywhere around here that's safe (and legal) to test that setup in, at whatever it's full speed would be. So I get to not blow things up almost-on-purpose :) for a little while, at least. :lol:

With the rightside cargo pod off (see below) I'm able to do some fairly sharp turns, and I need to slow down more for street turns but I really don't want to now. It's just not safe becuase I cant' always see far enough around the corner to be sure anything faster than 15-17MPH is safe; I might find a parked car or something right around the curve (despite No Parking zones on at least some of them), and be totally unable to stop/swerve fast enough to avoid it. :roll:

Guess I'm bit with the racing bug too. :oops:


I think I forgot to post this, but after I got home and slept, I changed the fork out for the suspension fork I'd decided against because of height (which would change the steering geometry), solely because the thin fork that is the right height doens't have big enough dropouts to actually keep the wheel in place (I almost lost it several times that day!) without very gradual acceleration from a stop.
DSC03650.JPG
DSC03650.JPG (77.76 KiB) Viewed 3577 times
A side advantage of this shock fork is that it has the v-brake cable-pull-stop mount as part of the brake-bridge, allowing me (forcing, actually) to remove the kludged-up rack-mounting-ear assembly I'd been using for that on the previous two forks. Theoretically this will make the braking better, as the built-in mount is not as likely to bend during hard braking, which I know was happening with my kludge.

I also decided to remove the rightside pod for now, since it is no longer required to support the rear lighting setup, as that's now on the back of the seat again. Now it's easier to park at work.
DSC03659.JPG
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The lighting setup looks a little different now that it's in a close cluster instead of spread out.
DSC03668.JPG
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DSC03669.JPG
DSC03669.JPG (26.32 KiB) Viewed 3580 times
I think I am going to move the turn signals out to the extreme ends of the back of the seat bar, to make them more clear as to which is which. :)

Overall, the bike now looks like this:
DSC03673.JPG
DSC03673.JPG (85.92 KiB) Viewed 3577 times
as I have not yet removed the extra batteries and controller, or neatened anything up. The 12FET it's running on now is the one sticking out to the side, clearing the pedals/cranks by about 5mm:
DSC03675.JPG
DSC03675.JPG (72.02 KiB) Viewed 3577 times
The Methods 100V 18FET is still in the triangle. Knowing my luck with things maybe I should leave it there just in case. ;)

This si the charging setup right now:
DSC03674.JPG
DSC03674.JPG (81.76 KiB) Viewed 3577 times
I pulled both the TWMs from DGA for now to monitor the 24V NiMH packs, since I ran them pretty hard at the race and on the way there and back, and today on my work commute. At the time it was unknown current limiting, though today with TWM2 hooked up I did a test after I got home, and got 35A peak at a startup from stop, with a few Ah already out of the packs for my commute.

I am going to see if I can hook up a programming header to both the 12FET and the 18FET and see if I can change the current limit downward to 15-16A max, assuming there is softwrae compatible wtih the MCU on these. Have to check what that is because I've forgotten.

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Re: Semi-Recumbent Recycled-Parts Cargo eBike: "CrazyBike2"

Post by amberwolf » Nov 03, 2010 12:37 am

On the ride today I had the TWM2 hooked up to monitor the 48V 13Ah pack into the 12FET, but I forgot to write down all the readings at the time, and now I've forgotten most of the numbers. I do recall the 34.8A peak on the ride to work, and the 35.0A peak on the way home. I didn't pedal at all, just so I could see what power it really did take. It was something like 1400W peak on teh way to work and 1600W peak going home. Cannot remember any of the voltages, though, including sag. Guess I gotta try this again tomorrow. :(

I am discovering I do not like the Vetta cyclecomputer as a speedo. It's very slow to respond to speed changes, taking upwards of 3 or 4 seconds at minimum to change speed display. If I am not changing speed quickly, it takes even longer--up to 30 seconds! As an example, during acceleration I may go from 0 to 10MPH in a couple of seconds max, yet it still shows I'm at 5MPH at that point. If I then slowly accelerate to 20MPH from there, taking 15-20 seconds or more to do so, it may not even show that I've reached 15MPH by then, and it may take another 20-30 seconds to show my 20MPH speed even though I know I am going *at least* that fast for that length of time. It's really annoying, because sometimes it will show me I'm at 22MPH so I let off the throttle a tiny bit, and I can feel the deceleration (barely) but it still shows I am at 22MPH, even after I'm pretty sure I'm down in 17-18MPH by then. Suddenly it will blip to show that slower speed, after nearly half a minute. :( Not very useful for keeping myself "legal" or for trying to figure out speeds for experimental data points. :roll:

So I'm probably going to make a connector to use the Vetta's sensor on my VeloAce PDA, as it's nicer and less likely to get broken than the bare reed switch I currently use on the PDA. Plus I can leave the reed switch on one bike and the Vetta sensor on another, and just move the PDA over--right now I have to take the whole cabling for the PDA off and move it around. I also have another sensor that was left on the cracked-frame Specialized bike abandoned at my house; it doesn't have the computer with it so I could just use the sensor/cable on one bike, too.

I would like to find a handful of the old Palm m100 serial sync cables so I could keep one at the PC to actually sync it with that, and then one on each bike to just move the PDA over as needed, and splice the cable directly to the sensor, removing the need for the bulky DB9 serial connectors I'm having to use now.



Something else arrived today, from Bluestreak:
DSC03682.JPG
DSC03682.JPG (57.27 KiB) Viewed 3568 times
It's the Vpower battery that had problematic cells in it (at least one string, not known which yet). It was well packed:
DSC03677.JPG
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DSC03678.JPG
DSC03678.JPG (57.3 KiB) Viewed 3568 times
DSC03679.JPG
DSC03679.JPG (74.29 KiB) Viewed 3565 times
and is quite heavy (and seems big, though not as heavy or big as NiMH would be for 48V 20Ah, and definitely better than SLA!) For a size comparixon, that's Nana, the St. Bernard (though she is small for one, at only ~100lbs) investigating the pack.
Another size comparison:
DSC03687.JPG
DSC03687.JPG (56.15 KiB) Viewed 3565 times
The pack laying sideways in DGA's cargo pod (with the side off), where normally the 48V13Ah NiMH would go. It's right about the same size, a little smaller, and significantly greater capacity and I'm sure much greater safe current-delivery with less sag.

Speaking of current delivery: On the BMS, at some point either there was a high-current demand beyond the insulation's ability to withstand, or else the factory heated up the solder connection quite a bit here:
(EDIT: verified that this is a factory-caused problem, along with the other messy solder joints)
DSC03685.JPG
DSC03685.JPG (56.14 KiB) Viewed 3568 times
Doesnt' appear to have affected anything. The BMS in side-view, between the PCBs:
DSC03683.JPG
DSC03683.JPG (28.71 KiB) Viewed 3477 times
Hopefully have time to troulbeshoot the pack this week.
Last edited by amberwolf on Nov 03, 2010 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Semi-Recumbent Recycled-Parts Cargo eBike: "CrazyBike2"

Post by amberwolf » Nov 03, 2010 9:13 pm

Some actual numbers from my commute today, though only the way home (had to get started working as soon as I got htere so no time to write the stuff down).

To home half of commute (~2.9mi):
51.11Vrest
41.07Vmin
74.8Wh
(~25.8Wh/mile)
1.652Ah
1627Wp
41.2Ap

Charging back up after I got home resulted in some odd results
PackA took 3.42Ah to recharge
PackB took 4.21Ah to recharge.
I cycled power on the charger for PackA just to check that, and se where it stops on a second cycle, because I think it can't be right--the pack isn't even warm, and it should be, right after charging, even with my fan on it.

As a comparison, last night's charging was:
Pack A = 5.64Ah
Pack B = 5.28Ah

I'm not sure if maybe a problem is developing in PackA due to the high current draws, causing this to happen. I can't see the wattmeter while riding so I can't check it for current draw at speed, to see what my average readings really are. If they're a lot higher than DayGlo Avenger (which I doubt) then they could be stressing the NiMH. Otherwise these high currents are only for a few seconds at a time as I accelerate from a stop.

Havent' gotten into the Vpower pack yet; guessing it wont' happen tonite. Got it on the worktable ready to start when I get a chance, though.

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Re: Semi-Recumbent Recycled-Parts Cargo eBike: "CrazyBike2"

Post by amberwolf » Nov 04, 2010 11:55 pm

Hah. I must've been stupid or something when I setup the shock fork and brakes, because even though I was SURE I had set them for no rub and about 1mm clearance at lever-rest position, they must've been rubbing anyway.

My hands have been hurting a lot with the recent weather changes, so I decided to experiment a bit at lunchtime with loosening the brake cable tension at the lever, so that I could get more travel before braking so I could have my hand in a better grip position, better leverage with my aching fingers, by the time I really needed to squeeze on them for a hard stop. Previously I had only enough travel on the lever to engage the brake light *just* before actual braking would begin. Now I have maybe 10 degrees of lever angle relative to rest (possibly more) before braking begins, after brake light engages.

Riding exactly the same way home I usually do netted only 49Wh total, for almost 3 miles. The way to work is about 2.3 miles and got me 71Wh (before the readjustment). So something DEFINITELY was rubbing on the brakes.

Now, what's wierd is that I could even pedal the bike ok once up to at least 5-6MPH so it didn't fall over without my feet balancing it at the ground, even before the adjustment, so it couldn't have been *that* much rub, I'd think. But it was enough for at least 20Wh in a 3 mile trip. That's a lot. It is far easier to pedal now, though, so it definitely fixed something real; it's not JUST a motor thing. :)

I already misplaced the notepaper with all the readings on it, but recharging the batteries gets:
PackA: 4.2Ah
PackB: 4.1Ah.

More normal and in balance than before, and much more like what I would have expected. Tomorrow's numbers with both readings to and from work would probably show even less (maybe half an Ah, at a guess) due to not having the losses during the to-work trip from the brakes. :roll: But I won't be riding home tomorrow, just to-work, as friend will be meeting me there and taking me and the bike in his truck (no, I'm not lifting it! hopefully the telescoping aluminum ramp will hold up long enough to get it on and off) to go do some bike-part searching after work.

So now I'm getting more like 17Wh/mile, which is a very good number for a bike this heavy (perhaps 150-160lbs with all my NiMH on there still, plus the 9C and 26" wheel vs 24" regular bike wheel), but minus the weight and drag of the right cargo pod (maybe 3-5lbs?), plus my own 150lbs.

Compare that to yesterday's 25.8Wh/mile, and DayGlo Avenger's 17 to 37 Wh/mile depending on conditions (worse with headwinds, by far, compared to CB2). Even allowing that it takes about 50W to run the lights via DC-DC on DGA, that still only accounts for maybe 2Wh/mile if I did the math right. Also, the low end of the range is only if I'm pedalling normally or heavily, IIRC. (I had to glance thru my ES posts for the data, as I havent' kept my own separate log of that data and conditons as I keep telling myself I will, and started to several times).

I'm riding the same way at the same speeds, same stops, etc. with the same motor in the same wheel, and same battery pack (48V 13Ah NiMH), with the same Turnigy Watt Meter. The controller is different, but since it doens't have a current limit (or at least, I haven't reached it yet, even up to 41A peak, compared to DGA's ~20A limit), I'd think the controller would potentially allow *higher* Wh/mile because I'd pull harder on the batteries for longer. That doesn't seem to be true, and though I have a theory as to why, perhaps, it still means the controller doesn't make much difference to the Wh/mile I'm getting.

So the bike itself, it's lower frontal profile and my semi-recumbent position, are probably very much a big reason why it gets such significantly lower Wh/mile than DGA.

I'll have to wait a few rides to see what it averages out, but it would be wierd for it not to be pretty close already.

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Re: Semi-Recumbent Recycled-Parts Cargo eBike: "CrazyBike2"

Post by amberwolf » Nov 07, 2010 2:06 am

I got busy with stuff and didn't remember to post my exact data, and cant' find it now, but it was in line with the latter numbers after the brake fix. I guess it really did have some brake rub causing power losses. :( At least it's fixed now. :)

Nothing much new other than that, except I'm building what is essentially a trike version of CrazyBike2, here:
Amberwolf's Delta Trike Build v1.0
I strongly considered just sticking the trike adapter right onto CrazyBike2 itself, but decided I want a separate trike. :)

Plus, CB2 finally works again, and I am leery of doing anything with it other than very minor tweaks as I have a history of breaking it when I do more than that. :lol:

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Re: Semi-Recumbent Recycled-Parts Cargo eBike: "CrazyBike2"

Post by amberwolf » Nov 08, 2010 4:20 am

Since without the rightside cargo pod on there, it has a tendency to tip leftward when resting on the left cargopod corner (no kickstand), I decided to add a leftside kickstand, as I finally found the one I had meant to try a long time back, while looking for something else.
DSC03712.JPG
DSC03712.JPG (75.71 KiB) Viewed 3484 times
It's a hollow steel tube about 5/8" diameter, maybe a little less. Is exactly the right length to hold the bike up nearly vertical. Problem it has is that under load it tends to rotate it's mount on a yaw axis, each time I put it down with weight on the bike it slips a little bit. Can't seem to tighten it enough to make that stop, so I will have to figure out a solution for that (besides tackwelding it to the frame). Works well before it moves, though.
DSC03711.JPG
DSC03711.JPG (50.84 KiB) Viewed 3396 times
I also removed the 36V 9Ah NiMH that I had been using solely for CFL headlight/taillight, put on for the race so I would have spare NiMH already on the bike (but is basically a waste of space and several pounds of weight, as the CFL will run better off the 48V with insignificant difference to the load on the 48V 13Ah pack). As the lighting is already setup to run thru the circuit breaker and the large anderson SB50 Multipole connector, I chose to add a second set of smaller Powerpole 30s on there for the battery and controller, so the motor system can also use the breaker (basically main power cutoff, as it was on the SLA/powerchair motor system). Meant to do that for the race but had no time or brains left the night before. :lol:

The kickstand got a heckuva workout tonight, too:
DSC03714.JPG
DSC03714.JPG (78.49 KiB) Viewed 3396 times
That's one 35lb dogfood bag in the cargo pod, and another in the seat (I had to sit in front of it on teh way home--uncomfortable but tolerable for the 3 miles home from work). The backpack hanging on the bars was annoying, but necessary as I had nowhere else I could put it at the time. I did not have my right cargo pod bolted on so I couldn't use that, or I'd've put the other bag in that one, and then the backpack on me (as a frontpack probably) or tied to the top of a pod.
DSC03716.JPG
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So an additional 70lbs of stuff on the bike, minus the several pounds of NiMH with the 36V9Ah pack off of there, for the trip home.

Trip to work was 40.1Wh, 1.1Ah, peak 32A. Trip home was 64Wh with the extra load, 1.63Ah (which doesn't seem right, but...), peak 32.4A. Expected a lot higher since unlike on the way to work I could not pedal *at all* on the way home, as I was sitting too far forward on the seat to even put both feet on the pedals--only one on the pedal all the way forward--the other was next to my kneecap. :(

So about 17.4Wh/mile on the way to work, some pedalling at startup but little during the ride, and about 22.1Wh/mile on teh way home, no pedalling at all plus the extra 70lbs.


Some bad news: I lost the lens to my CFL headlight on the way home--the HID lens just popped out on a smallish pothole just after I left work and shattered on the road. :cry: I'll just have to live with it the way it is for now, but it has no beam this way, just a scattercone. Eventually I'll see about building a mount for one of the car headlights or something, until I can build some other housing for the CFL that can focus it's light into a beam. :( No time for that for a while, though.


Someday I'd like to build a bolt-on trunk for this bike that is also a tailfairing. It'd have a top compartment that opens from the rear like a hatchback, containing the volume from the seatback to behind the wheel, over the top of the wheel to the top sloping back of the trunk lid. Then two side compartments that would essentially be the space the current cargo pods have, plus a little more up top so that the top compartment's bottom is level with the top of the rear wheel.

For that, I gotta get enough aluminum sheet of about 1/8" thickness plus various thicknesses for braces and whatnot, so I can rivet it together into a one-piece bolt-on to be used when I want to carry stuff on the bike, but can be left off easily when I am just going to commute. I figure the shape should be as much an aero tail as I can get without making it any longer than the bike is now, if possible (but will rpobably have to add at least a foot to the lenght, maybe more, to make aero actually work). The boxes I have now can't be helping my aerodynamics at all, so almost anything should be an improvement. :lol:

Why aluminum? Because it's tougher than plastic for theft resistance, and I have probably enough of it in smallish pieces to make it already. Coroplast is another option, as there are still pletny of political signs up from the election recently, some of which are quite large. But this is another of those "someday" things, as there's not really time for it right now and it's not a pressing need.

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Re: Semi-Recumbent Recycled-Parts Cargo eBike: "CrazyBike2"

Post by amberwolf » Nov 08, 2010 8:58 pm

Started troubleshooting that Vpower/CammyCC pack today:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 50&start=0

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Re: Semi-Recumbent Recycled-Parts Cargo eBike: "CrazyBike2"

Post by amberwolf » Nov 15, 2010 2:29 am

Might be able to road test that pack by tomorrow or next day. :)

Also, today I was relaxing over at a friend's house, and on the way back we stopped at another friend of his that I hadn't met before, to pickup an old gas barbecue grill he didnt' want anymore (might be useful for cooking some foods my electric stove doesnt' do so well) and somewhere in the conversation bicycle stuff came up. He asked if i wanted a couple of old ten speeds he was getting rid of, so I said sure, since we already had my friend's truck there for the grill.

I didn't get a pic of the bikes because it is too cold for my hands out htere right now, but they are his and hers Huffy from late 70s or early 80s, and I think they may have been outside the last several years at least, given the tires and chain appearance. One-piece cranks, so not really useful as whole frames for bikes I would normally build, but since the frames are the same in style/etc other than one being "women's" and one "mens", they might be handy in a project that I want two matching frames in (or parts of).

He also gave me the spare tires bought for them about a decade ago, but never used--kept in the garage. They're a little hard but not apparently damaged, and may still be good tires.
DSC03780.JPG
DSC03780.JPG (43.97 KiB) Viewed 3443 times
They're probably going to go on that Nishiki a few posts up, if they turn out ok. Very narrow tires, but smoothish road tread, should be nice enough for just a pedal-only bike, especially one as light as the Nishiki.

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Re: Semi-Recumbent Recycled-Parts Cargo eBike: "CrazyBike2"

Post by amberwolf » Nov 16, 2010 5:24 am

The Vpower pack is now at a point where I will be road testing it tomorrow, before I go to work in the evening. Also, the CA from here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 97&start=0
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 62&start=0
arrved but was left at the neighbors so I have to go get it in the morning. I'll use it to test the Vpower pack on CB2 for it's first test (along with WU1 and TWM2 for verification of readings).


I am also recharging the NiMH packs mounted on CB2 in case I have to use them to get back if the Vpower pack fails.

So far since I fixed the brakes in front, it's been fairly consistent (with the 48V 13Ah NiMH pack) at 58-62Wh for both the to-work and to-home legs of the work commute. Not too bad for 3 miles on a heavy bike I'm basically not pedalling at all these days. About 20Wh/mile for the home trip, and 27Wh/mile for the trip to work.

Probably higher to work due to higher voltage at the time, less sag so able to pump more power in to the motor for longer during startups from a stop. Also, I am pretty sure I am runnning it harder on the way to work, as I have to accelerate in and out of traffic and across roads signifcicantly more than on he way home, partly from traffic itself being heavier at the times I usually have to go to work.

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Re: Semi-Recumbent Recycled-Parts Cargo eBike: "CrazyBike2"

Post by amberwolf » Nov 17, 2010 7:48 pm

Some data using the Vpower pack in it's first testing phases after repair:

Yesterday, partly crossposted from the pack repair thread
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 56#p333956

On the trip home, I got the following:

Code: Select all

      WU1   TWM2   CA
Ah  1.663   1.602   1.587
Wh  84      74      72
Wp  2056    2027    2844**
Ap  41.9     47.7     61.3
Vm  48.8    47.28   46.4
Vr  52.83   52.97   52.9
**Wp on CA is calculated by me using Ap x Vm, isn't displayed anywhere that I can find)

On the way riding to work and the test ride around, I figure I used about 3-4Ah, and probably had higher peak power levels, or at least longer peaks. I pushed it pretty hard after the first couple of miles, just to see if I could cause it to fail or to cut out (like LVC on the repaired string, for instance), which it didn't. I don't have the data form it because there wasn't time to write it down by the time I got to work. :(

I didn't do any pedalling, so all the data is from the motor/controller/battery.

Only real problem I had at all is that with this pack in the side pod, it's so heavy that I cannot just use the kickstand, I have to stick a rock or something under the cargo pod corner to hold up the bike or it'll fall over. :lol: Optionally I can set the parking brake and set the cargo pod over one of those cement end-pieces they put on parking spaces to let you know when you've pulled too far in. ;) That'll just about keep the bike perfectly straight, with most of them being just a hair shorter in height than the cargo pod's distance from the ground with the bike level.

But this pack will not go in the pod (or at least not in just one) once I am confident enough in it to have it as the only pack on the bike--it'll go in the frame like the NiMH does now. In place of the NiMH, probably.


Also crossposted from the repari thread:
Today I had time to write down all the data for both to work and to home legs of the commute; they're the same 2.2mi and 2.9mi that I typically have for those, and I rode at the usual 20mph wherever possible. Since I am trying to break this pack now if it is going to :twisted: then I am not pedalling at all, and starting as hard as I can (full throttle from a stop until I am reaching cruising speed of wherever I am).

To work:

Code: Select all

      WU1   TWM2   CA
Ah  1.441   1.435   1.410
Wh  75      73.8    72.7
Wp  2026    1970    2743**
Ap  39.69     39.74     58.11
Vm  49.4    48.03   47.2
Vr  53.28   53.42   53.3
V[size=80]start[/size]  60     60.2     60.1
**Wp on CA is calculated by me using Ap x Vm, isn't displayed anywhere that I can find)

On the way home:

Code: Select all

      WU1   TWM2   CA
Ah  1.599   1.563   1.566
Wh  81.4      78.4    78.2
Wp  2052    2014    2833**
Ap  41.8      42.32     60.54
Vm  49.0    47.5   46.8
Vr  52.94   53.1   53.0
**Wp on CA is calculated by me using Ap x Vm, isn't displayed anywhere that I can find)


The large-screen CA is very nice and easy to read in any lighting condition I've encountered so far, even for my aging eyes (I have to squint and move my head around for the right angle to read the TWMs while riding, and still ahve to squint a bit for the WU, but not the large screen CA). Still gotta work out the speedo problem.

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Re: Semi-Recumbent Recycled-Parts Cargo eBike: "CrazyBike2"

Post by amberwolf » Nov 19, 2010 12:25 am

I got the following data for today's typical work commute, agian using the Vpower/CammyCC pack, riding it hard and as fast as allowed. More detailed data on the pack is in the post from a couple minutes ago in that thread.

As an aside, using the large-screen CA made it possible to easily note the wattage while riding, which was around 260-290W at 20MPH. I didn't have any way to write it all down as I rode home from work, and couldnt' remember more than one pair of numbers without mixing stuff up so I did not try. ;) At some point I'll see if I can make the serial data logging cable for it, and stick a laptop in the cargo pod to take for a run, and then see what comes up for power vs speed. I'll have to fix the CA speedo issue first, though, because right now I'm still using the little Innovator cycle computer (which I definitely dislike for a few reasons) as a speedo.

To work:

Code: Select all

      WU1   TWM2   CA
Ah  1.372   1.333   1.325
Wh  71.2    68.5    68.5
Wp  2094    2013    2965**
Ap  41.65    41.32     62.28
Vm  49.52    48.25   47.6
Vr  53.25   53.38   53.2
Vstart  60.8     60.9     60.6
**Wp on CA is calculated by me using Ap x Vm, isn't displayed anywhere that I can find)

On the way home:

Code: Select all

      WU1   TWM2   CA
Ah  1.583   1.516   1.507
Wh  80.3     75.5    75.3
Wp  2067    2032    2983**
Ap  42.08      42.81     61.96
Vm  48.98    47.48   46.7
Vr  52.93   53.08   53.0
**Wp on CA is calculated by me using Ap x Vm, isn't displayed anywhere that I can find)

I took it off the bike and started it charging, because I needed to go to the store and it takes up a LOT of the cargo pod, and is very heavy, taking the place of a significant amount of groceries I could get. I just used the NiMH already mounted in the frame for the short 1-mile-each-way trip. I also bolted the other cargo pod back on, for more groceries, around 53lbs of stuff this trip.

I'll tell you what, though--having that other cargo pod on the right side is really annoying when making right turns, after having ridden without it basically since shortly after coming home from the Undead Race. I can't make right turns at speed with it on there, and have to slow to 14-15MPH or I scrape it every time. :( I've gotten used to being able to do them at closer to 18-19MPH, leaning pretty far over. Left turns of course are still either slower or a lot wider, but that's ok as I almost never am trying to make a sharp left, whereas rights are nearly always needing to be quick and sharp. :(


The WU was on the other pack monitoring it's charge, so I only have the TWM2 and CA data (to use as comparison to previous data recorded with TWM2, since some CA data is very different from either WU or TWM2).

To store:

Code: Select all

      TWM2   CA
Ah    0.451   0.45
Wh    21.3    21.5
Wp    1346    2008**
Ap     37.16     54
Vm     41.86   37.2
Vr    52.99   52.9
Vstart   54.41     54.3

Code: Select all

      TWM2   CA
Ah    0.66    0.67
Wh    31.1    32
Wp    1404    2009**
Ap     33.15     51.1
Vm     41.31    37.2
Vr    52.7   52.6
As a side note, it's a bit odd. Sometimes Pack A of the NiMH takes more charge, and sometimes Pack B does. Always using the same TWM and charger with the same pack, so that whatever causes it ought to be in the pack itself. Usually the difference is around 0.4Ah or so. Since the difference is relatively consistent, I thought at first I might be accidentally mixing chargers or meters, but I marked them with one dot for A and two dots for B on each connection so I can be sure I'm always using it the same, and the difference really does seem to randomly pick a different pack to be on. :?

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Re: Semi-Recumbent Recycled-Parts Cargo eBike: "CrazyBike2"

Post by amberwolf » Nov 23, 2010 3:33 am

Hunh. When I tested same conditions but using the NiMH (~4v less total pack voltage), I got 360-390W for 20Mph. :?

Why *more* power needed for less voltge at same speed? More current, sure, same power total expected.... kless, actually, since the heavy vpower pack was not on the bike .

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Re: Semi-Recumbent Recycled-Parts Cargo eBike: "CrazyBike2"

Post by JohnH » Nov 23, 2010 12:28 pm

More amps, so more heat generated from resistance, so more power lost to heat? That's what I understand the "more volts and gear it down" guys to be saying. I'm assuming that your motor is running the same actual RPM either way, to drive the bike at the same speed, so rpm "sweet spot" is not an issue.
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Re: Semi-Recumbent Recycled-Parts Cargo eBike: "CrazyBike2"

Post by amberwolf » Nov 23, 2010 4:35 pm

Yeah, same motor in hub so same RPM for same speed, same controller, etc, which is why I don't understand the power thing. Only difference is the battery packs, which shoudlnt' affect it as the pack that takes less power for 20MPH is capable of outputting much more power than the one that takes more power for 20MPH.


Well, this pack will get a bit of a workout on the road on Thursday. I will be going to a friend's for Thanksgiving, and have to cross North Mountain on Cave Creek Road to do it, which is a fair slope and a long one.
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=33.57544 ... 4&t=p&z=13
I can't find all the topo line markings but I am pretty sure it's over 200 feet of rise over the last mile and a half or so before the downslope starts on the northeast end of CCR as it reaches Cactus. I've had to *walk* DayGlo Avenger up that last bit, when it was a pedal-only bike, much lighter than it is now, because I couldn't go in a low enough gear to pedal up it any further and my legs just were too worn out.

EDIT: Hmmm. I can't figure a good way to show my route on there that google maps will display in the link, so...it's from half a mile south of Metrocenter (the big oval toward the left (west)), up 29th Ave to the Arizona Canal. From there to Dunlap just west of 7th street where it meets with Cave Creek Road, then up CCR to Cactus. East on Cactus to 28th st then south to Yucca and east to 27th St area. A few hours later then back the same way to get home. Not taking Dunlap straight over to 7th/CCR so I can go slower for much of the trip, saving power and keeping the motor cooler longer.


So since I am sure the NiMH is not really up to that task by itself, I'm going to do that actual run using this pack, in one of the cargo pods, and keep the NiMH on there for backup. I wanted to do this on the Delta Tripper trike but I am not very likely to have that anywhere near done enough to ride by then, given my hands' condition.

I'm going to swap out the side covers for the ventilated ones from Icecube57's 9C/GM, and I'm going to take the GM stator of that with me too just in case I manage to damage the 9C somehow, so I can swap it out on the road. That'd suck but I want to know if I can make this hill or not, with a heavy bike. I've still got the spare controller on there, too. I may be able to monitor temperature if I can setup this PC-case temperature monitor I've got on the bike, and thread the sensor into the axle. I have a couple of spare sensors so if I cna get it into the 9C's axle I'll then try it on the GM's, so I can just swap and go and still monitor.

Ideally, I'd rather use a thru-the-gears setup for hills, but I still haven't worked out the way to do that best on CB2 that won't keep derailing and destroying things under power. :( Thud's jackshaft should help a lot, but I also have to fix the twisting of the frame under motor torque.

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Re: Semi-Recumbent Recycled-Parts Cargo eBike: "CrazyBike2"

Post by amberwolf » Nov 25, 2010 7:13 am

Since a significant part of the trip I had planned for today (thanksgiving) was uphill, and CB2 does not balance well at the slow speeds I might well end up having to ride at to keep temperatures down for that part, I thought I would be clever and put the trike kit on it from this thread:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 20&start=0
I did finally get it on there and wheels made for it, and it looks kinda ok (actually makes CB2 look better than it does as a bike):
DSC03846.JPG
DSC03846.JPG (38.66 KiB) Viewed 3894 times
However, it is all but unrideable. Can't turn faster than 10MPH and even that is very scary, can feel the inner wheel lifting. :( 5MPH is much more realistic and even then no sharp turns, just gradual ones. Riding up a curb at an angle would be suicide (like entering my driveway).
DSC03844.JPG
DSC03844.JPG (33.3 KiB) Viewed 3675 times
Also, I think the 3speed hub/wheel I built up is the very worst wheel I have ever built, even after wasting over two hours trying to tension and true it, and I can't even figure out *why* it keeps going wrong, whcih is the worst part. It's so out of round it actually makes the back end shudder as I speed up, and causes a shimmy in the steering. Nearly every correction I make to it makes things *worse* than before, so there must be something wrong with my perceptions of things, or my thought process, that is keeping me from doing it the right way (the same way I have done many dozens of times before).
DSC03843.JPG
DSC03843.JPG (12.77 KiB) Viewed 3675 times
So basically I have to take the trike stuff off and put CB2 back together again as a bike, because it will never be a trike withotu some major redesign of weight distribution, even if I can relearn how to build wheels. :roll:
DSC03845.JPG
DSC03845.JPG (11.55 KiB) Viewed 3675 times
But I have to have it ready and tested for work on Friday mornng, so I need to spend THursday doing that, meaning my TG trip/day is basically cancelled.
DSC03841.JPG
DSC03841.JPG (35.43 KiB) Viewed 3675 times
If for some reason I figure I can't get it done in time I have to move the motorwheel back to DayGlo Avenger and retest *That* bike for work instead, as i have yet to find the right size spokes to be able to put the other motor into either a 24" or a 26" wheel, and I havne't had time to repair any of the Fusin motor wheels.

Basically I guess I did what I have told myself I would NOT do again, and that is to mess around with the only working bike rather than fix up several to keep as instantly-ready spares. :(

Maybe this will teach me not to do that...but I doubt it. :roll: :oops:

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Re: Semi-Recumbent Recycled-Parts Cargo eBike: "CrazyBike2"

Post by amberwolf » Nov 25, 2010 11:19 pm

CB2 is now a bike again, thanks to Tannon, a friend that came by to help me out--I don't think i could have gotten it done without him. My hands just hurt too much, as does the rest of me, and I'm still pretty tired (not enough sleep).

One change from before is that the right rear wheel off the trike section is now the rear wheel of CB2 as a bike. That wheel had been off the front-disc-brake MTB a page or two ago (or maybe that's in the Delta Tripper trike thread), and is a decent aluminum rim, using CB2's former front tire/tube/liner that had been on the Fusin 24" motor wheel, and on what had been CB2's regular front wheel before that. It replaces the older steel rim wheel I've had on CB2 for quite some time now, which has a bent axle and needs a good truing.

I'm going to *try* (harder than usual) to avoid potholes with it, so I don't destroy it like the last aluminum rim I had on here.

Also to that end, I have a rear shock swingarm and spring from a cheap 26" Magna that I am going to try out on CB2 once I next get at least a couple of days off in a row (might be a while given the holiday season and working in retail).
DSC03837.JPG
DSC03837.JPG (63.09 KiB) Viewed 3880 times
I was given the frame and swingarm (along with a partly-disassembled front shock fork for 24" wheels) yesterday, but had not had time to do anything with it, because I decided to try out the trike thing first, instead of the swingarm. Should've done the swingarm first (Because I could have bolted the trike to that....)

Anyhow, I will need to weld in some mounting plates on CB2's rear triangle, between the seatstay and chainstay, and then an extension tube from the under-seat support tubing to the point where the rear shock mount needs to be.

Most likely, I will have to use two shocks in order to not get full compression from the thing just by sitting down on it, with CB2 already weighing as much as I do. :lol: Hopefully I can use them in parallel, one on each side of the mounts, rather than in series. It already has an 850lb spring on there, and I have another nearly identical shock with another 850lb spring, too.

More info later as I ponder.

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Re: Semi-Recumbent Recycled-Parts Cargo eBike: "CrazyBike2"

Post by amberwolf » Nov 28, 2010 3:02 am

Now that the CA is working fully, speedo and all, some data from my work commute today.

To work:
2.255 miles
22mph max
12.9mph avg
10min 28s triptime
53.5Vrest
39.9Vmin
62.22Wh
27.6Wh/mile
1.328Ah
54.75Amax
2184Wmax (calculated as before)

To home:
2.91 miles
22.4mph max
13.1mph avg
13min 19s triptime
51.6Vrest
40.0Vmin
71.25Wh
24.5Wh/mile
1.556Ah
52.78Amax
2111Wmax (calculated as before)

On the to-home leg I also noted down the TWM2 readings:
51.7Vrest
41.27Vmin
70.9Wh
1.566Ah
34Amax
1420Wmax (as measured by TWM2)

Still wish I knew what is up with that Amax on the CA. :?

Same total power and whatnot is measured by both, just the CA has higher current peak readings, which might just mean it samples faster or something and is thus catching psikes missed by the WU and TWM.

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Re: Semi-Recumbent Recycled-Parts Cargo eBike: "CrazyBike2"

Post by amberwolf » Nov 28, 2010 11:14 pm

More data from my work commute today.

To work:
2.261 miles
20.4mph max
12.8mph avg
56.6Vstart
53.3Vrest
39.9Vmin
62.51Wh
27.6Wh/mile
1.318Ah
56.77Amax
2265Wmax (calculated as before)

To home:
2.908 miles
20.6mph max
12.9mph avg
51.1Vrest
39.7Vmin
68.2Wh
23.5Wh/mile
1.467Ah
45.97Amax
1825Wmax (calculated as before)

On the to-home leg I also noted down the TWM2 readings:
51.14Vrest
41.27Vmin
68.1Wh
1.483Ah
33.13Amax
1379Wmax (as measured by TWM2)

Nothing else interesting yet. When my thumb stops going numb and then throbbing, I should be able to start messing with the possible suspension rear end ideas. Right now about half the time I can't feel what I'm touching with it, and the other half it is pulsing annoyingly (though not usually hurting a lot, just kind of a dull throb, with occasional spikes like if i accidentally bang the end of the fingernail on something...that's bad). Maybe a day or two more; it's lots better than even a couple days ago already.


Anyway, the rear suspension idea is basically the same as what I had planned with the orange triangle and those MX shocks some pages back, and/or in this thread:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/vi ... 70&start=0
but using the shock and triangle designed for the purpose, and adding mounts for everything onto CB2's rear triangle in such a way as to allow me to easily remove it and put it back to what it was, if it doesn't work out.

First, I must get The Velcro Eclipse up and running again with a Fusin kit at the least, though, so that I can have a spare ebike. Also really need to find the right spokes to lace up a 9C into a 26" wheel, so I can get DGA back and running.

Actually I'd like to lace a 9C into a 24" wheel so I can put the 24" on CB2 and the 26" on DGA, for normal use. I don't need the speed of the 26" 9C on CB2 but the extra pulling power it would have as a 24" would be helpful, as I have 48V and I think I can get 25MPH or so out of it at full charge on the NiMH or the Vpower, on a 26", and I don't need more than 20MPH.

Having the extra speed available is nice for emergency maneuvers, but as long as I am paying attention and driving defensively, those won't come up very often at all, and I have a thought about that, too. I could setup the 12V NiMH pack used for signal/brake lighting right now as a switch-in booster pack, using a button on the throttle that gets engaged when pushing the thumb throttle all the way WOT plus just a teeny bit (since the plastic will flex), and the button turning on a relay that inserts that 12V pack in series with the 48V pack. Only needed in an emergency but something I would not have to think about to engage, just do the normal reaction of pushing the throttle harder. :)

Not sure how well it will work in practice, but I have a number of 24V-coil relays from UPS systems, and some large but unknown-spec relays from old linear power supplies and whatnot, which might do the trick, at least once (before welding themselves).

I'd probably wire it so that once engaged it does not disengage the 12V from the pack until the whole system is powered off. That way I can still modulate the power I get out of it, instead of suddenly losing the boost as soon as I am no longer at WOT.

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