Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

[inspiredvoltfreak]

EDIT: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Mars ME0709 brushed motor. The Turnigy's didn't work out.

EDIT: Lot's has changed over the course of this thread. Ultimately, this project was an ill-concieved flop. It turned out far different than originally planned. Don't make the mistakes I did, Listen to the experts! They know what their talking about. To see how it turns out later skip to page 7

Hey, I just signed up a couple days ago and am REALLY impressed by some of the work going on here! Three thumbs up guys, REALLY! (uh, guess I have to borrow a thumb . . .anybody have a thumb to . . . )

I started out about 3 months ago researching everything I could find on the subject and planning my build. My project? The title gives a lot away. This is going to be a street legal Honda CBR400 trike.
Status: "The frame is purchased and most components are on their way."

(I feel it is important to include this next section for anyone who is considering a build but is afraid to start.)

The things that almost stopped me!
1. No room to build ( I just bought an apartment which doesn't allow you to even work on your own vehicle on the property)
2. No place to charge my batteries (at home or at work, there's just no way to get within 100 feet of a recepticle)
3. Fear of making an investment and then failing.
They say that necessity is the mother of invention. (well i guess it proves true here. . . It's all over this forum!)

Pics to follow on shortly upcoming post!

[jonescg]

I LOVE the Honda CB400s they have started re-producing. A bit on the heavy side, but they are a might good looking machine. Welcome to the forum! Electric motorcycles need to be frustratingly compact, meaning not a lot of room for Lithium.

Looking forward to your build.

CHRIS

[inspiredvoltfreak]

Would be posting pics right now but every time post one thats landscape orientation it cuts off the front of the pic. Anyway, laptop battery is dying so will have to post them later. P.S. Mine's not much of a looker right now, came without most of the fairings

[jonescg]

I'd recommend using Photobucket or some other hosting website. Then just do an image link. And if you're taking pics for this forum, put the subject to the left a bit before snapping the pic. It just makes things easier

[inspiredvoltfreak]

AH, finally somewhat acceptable layout for my pictures!
So pic 3 states some details.
Planning on building this bike as a trike configuration in answer to my first two problems stated earlier.

1. No room to build ( I just bought an apartment which doesn't allow you to even work on your own vehicle on the property)
2. No place to charge my batteries (at home or at work, there's just no way to get within 100 feet of a recepticle)

By building everything off a custom rear swing arm I can bring that to my work, store it in my shop to work on and not have it get in the way. Also, as much as I like the idea of everything tucked neatly inside the frame i needed to make the battery pack removable so that I could bring the batteries inside my house and work to plug in and charge. The batteries will weigh about 200 lbs but they will be in a custom made case with wheels that will slide in between the rear tires. Considering putting a motor on the case to help it along (but that might not happen )

Center of the 4th pic shows something i'm excited about with this bike, a mono-shock, and not only that, it's pneumatic and adjustable with a tire pump! Thus there are only 2 bolts to remove essentially to install the swingarm, and they are both front and center of the swing arm so they won't get in the way of what I have to do back there.

[liveforphysics]

Motor bad choice.

That as trike won't turn.

[AussieJester]

^^ Agreed...far too heavy for the motors you have picked, be lucky to ride out of sight on a dark night without burning the motors/controller up or tipping over...Would be doing ALOT more research before purchasing anything.

KiM

[jonescg]

I think it would make for a great two-wheeler conversion wouldn't you?

[AussieJester]

I think it would make for a great two-wheeler conversion wouldn't you?

Be a ball tearer to convert, just not using 2 Tunigy motors (they are same as i run in my bicycle Chris)
2 of them stock, wont be upto the task of moving all that weight when piled with SLAS and rider...iMO...needs some
eteks or if funds allow same as your using, i.e Agnis... If its made into a trike without altering current CG
it will be an absolute pig to turn not to mention dangerous at highway speeds...Any (non tilting)
delta trike i have seen thats worth riding anywayz, is low and long with a large rake built into the front end.

KiM

[inspiredvoltfreak]

Ok, all that came as a bit of a shock! I've spent ALOT of time researching allready, pretty much all my spare time for the last couple months. But apparently still went wrong? By the way, KiM, loved reading through your build! Why did you say "tipping over"?
Definately a little discouraged by the news but, I still really want to get this project going. So i've been thinking it over for my motor options. I don't want to bother any of you, but after making the wrong decision once already I don't want to make a repeat. Could you give some input on these thoughts?

My Original motor
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/stor ... oduct=5139
48v x 150A is 7200 watts or 9.6 HP x2 would give me max 19.2HP

http://www.marselectricllc.com/pmmome1.html
This was the motor i was planning on using before I got on the RC motor kick, which as I understand it is same as ETEK? But 48v x 90A is only 4320 watts or 5.8 HP continuous, another page says 15 hp max.

I don't understand, if two turnigy's give more HP than an ETEK where did I go wrong? Or would I need two ETEK's??

I heard on another forum the idea of comparing the available HP to the weight of the vehicle (give you my example)

Geo Metro 1.3L 70 HP around 1765 LBS = 25.2 lbs/HP (driver weight included)
My Bike 19.2HP around 664lbs = 34.58 lbs/HP (driver weight included)

So i figured it would perform a little less than my metro. I'm only looking at being able to do 90-100 kph MAX. Most of the time traffic won't let me get past 90.

I have included a spreadsheet i found online that helped quite a bit. Made a few minor changes myself but nothing that effects any formulas.

Another thought (Might be retarded) But what about connecting two of the motors together end on end with the shafts joined in the same phase, could I then run it off of a single controller? Set up this way would be two connected motors per side with one controller each. By the way, controllers are undecided.

Also, I would consider modifying the bike to ride lower but will have to wait till i have a look at it b4 i can discuss more.

One more thing, i am planning to use AGM's only at the start as proof of concept for my wife who is quite skeptical about the whole thing and doesn't want me to blow 2-4K on LIPO's if it won't work. My plan was to go through one set of AGM's and then upgrade to LIPO and reap the rewards!

[c_a]

A Lynch D135 will do a good job.

www.epo-bike.de

[AussieJester]

KiM, loved reading through your build! Why did you say "tipping over"?

http://www.marselectricllc.com/pmmome1.html
This was the motor i was planning on using before I got on the RC motor kick, which as I understand it is same as ETEK? But 48v x 90A is only 4320 watts or 5.8 HP continuous, another page says 15 hp max.
I don't understand, if two turnigy's give more HP than an ETEK where did I go wrong? Or would I need two ETEK's??

The trike as per you pictured it is too high and has the incorrect head angle to corner effectively at speed (as a trike) hence i used the term "tipping over" As in when cornering at any thing faster than a brisk walk it would fall on its side. Delta trikes even at the best of times are pigs to corner, i have had two of them.

The choice of the Turnigys isn't such a bad thing, i guess, but what y9u will struggle with is a suitable controller to power them, anything available now that runs them at their peak is sensored and thus push or pedal start will be required before opening the throttle. The Turnigy motor also has an extremely high kv hence high rpm, you would require either a) a huge rear sprocket or b) a reduction drive unit BEFORE you link to the rear wheel with chain from the motor..

The etek motor you have picked is a common choice for motorcycle conversion and IMO will suit you alot better than the turnigys, the quality is better as is the controller selection available to run them...

Best of luck with your project please dont be discouraged this shit happens mate just be thankful you hadnt laid out any cash yet i think we all have gone down the wrong road at one time, your heading straight again keep powering on

KiM

[gwhy!]

As AJ have said about the turnigy motors I personally think they will do the job but what controller would be up for the job would/is the big question. I dont know what the total weight would be of your finished project and what plans if any about gearing you have. I have personally used one of these motors on a cvt scooter ( approx 85kg ) using just 3.5kw (peak) upto 45mph without any problem, and the pull was more than adequate but this was using a cvt which helped alot. I think if you could incorporated some form of 2 or 3 gears or maybe even a cvt from a scooter you will be sorted with power to spare, so to speak. If you can get the gearing sorted and the controllers sorted I think you will end up with something that will do a upto maybe 70mph and give you reasonable acceleration times. But also this will depend on the final weight of your project.

[inspiredvoltfreak]

Ok, so i'm hearing different news now. Gotta ask again, What would you expect to happen (In the event 2 motors dont work) (As they are already ordered & PAID FOR) if I was to hook up two motors end for end together in the same phase and then try to run them off 1 controller, assuming said controller is up to the challenge. I was planning on fitting Halls to these motors. by the way, with SLA my weight should be (with rider 165lbs) about 650 lbs (as is stated in my spreadsheet)

Further to that idea, even if 2 motors did work could I do it anyway and run the extra 2 motors during acceleration only or would the parisitic losses when their not running be substantial?

P.S. GWHY!, do you have a build log i can check out?

[johnhead@frontiernet.net]

Voltfreak,
I have a functioning, tilting, delta three wheeled Motorcycle using dual Enertrac Hub motors. The hub motor allow for much more room in the chassis for batteries/controllers etc. The hub motor concept also eliminates chains, differentials etc. You can find a video of my trike in action by following this link. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNpOtHtLSls
Good luck with your build. The members of this forum offer some Excellent advice and have a great deal of PRACTICAL experience. They have assisted me in the past and continue to do so.
Regards
John Head

[inspiredvoltfreak]

Awesome Mark! Was it difficult doing a tilting trike mechanism? I had considered the idea when i was thinking of doing a reverse trike but all those angles and such were just too much to deal with, but i never considered it on a regular trike, probably wouldn't be that bad. Of course i have a monoshock at rear so i would have to come up with a tripod joint to connect to the monoshock and the ?two? swing arms?

[gwhy!]

Thats a hell of a weight... spose cos of the sla's but I think it would still work but performance would be down on what I estimated. 2 motors on the same shaft from one controller would be ok but they would have to be synced to each other as you have said, or you can run 1 motor using halls and the other using a sensorless controller ( not 100% sure this would work, as I dont know of anyone that have done it ) use the sensored motor to pull away then feed in the power from the sensorless controller to the other motor. The motors will work but having a controller/s to drive would be the problem this is why I said if you can incorporate some sort of variable gearing to help not distroy the controller/s. If you run both motors from 1 sensored controller you would only need one set of halls.

Here is a link to the scooter project I started and havent finished but i am determined to get back to it in the summer. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=17576

[johnhead@frontiernet.net]

Awesome Mark! Was it difficult doing a tilting trike mechanism? I had considered the idea when i was thinking of doing a reverse trike but all those angles and such were just too much to deal with, but i never considered it on a regular trike, probably wouldn't be that bad. Of course i have a monoshock at rear so i would have to come up with a tripod joint to connect to the monoshock and the ?two? swing arms?

Volt Freak (love the name)
For an initial look at some leaning (pedal) trike geometry check out "http://jetrike.com/"
I began there and modified his dimensions to give less lift and less loading (I moved the linkages away from the swing arm pivot points etc.). I do use a monoshock to support both wheels and provide cushioning. While this trike looks LONG it is no longer than the longest commercially produced two wheeled motorcycle (Suzuki "chopper" clone).
"Think three times, measure twice, cut once!"

[inspiredvoltfreak]

"Think three times, measure twice, cut once!"

I'd like to slightly modify your statement to fit me better "Think seventy-three times, measure twice, cut once!"

[inspiredvoltfreak]

Ok, just researching in the ev parts section of the forum and found this page. http://www.evassemble.com/index.php?mai ... ucts_id=60 for the 48 volt 20ah lipo packs for $619 with BMS built in! That is awesome!!! At that price it actually lowers my cost to run per mile from 3.8 cents to 1.8 cents!! That's factoring in the cost of replacing the battery packs. New game plan start with used lead acids to prove concept and then give my bike a LIPO-suction and have it all. While not having to lug around 2-300 lbs of batteries. My sla chargers will be delivered by courier today. Lame start to receiving my parts but hopefully others will soon follow.

If I hook the Lipo's in parallel for upped ah i need a separate charger for each pack i believe is that right? Anyone have a suggestion on a charger as from what I've seen they're quite expensive as well. Gonna go search the forum but thought i'd throw it out there as well.

[inspiredvoltfreak]

Ok, time for some fun. Here's my first "build" I use the term loosely!

This was back in Summer 2004 and I was 22. I got the bike from the dump, and the motor from ebay. Put some lights and a SLA on it as well. Total cost $350. It did top speed 45kmph and could carry me up "most" hills. Which was just marginally less speed and power than a weed whacker engine id used b4 Whoda thought, shoulda kept the ww engine! Went through 2 of these engines in 6 months. They were junk.

[inspiredvoltfreak]

Ok, so, time for a real update. So far I have my Chargers, Motors, Controllers (possibly), (Rear tires 13", brakes, bearings, spindles - from a late model Toyota donor car). I am waiting on Hall sensors, pinion gears for motor, DC-DC converter. I took another look at the bike today and did some wrenching. The result is a LOT better than my original Concept pic. Taking KiM's advice on lowering my COG I tried to see what could be done without modifying the frame. The result is pretty stark contrast to b4.

I included a cutout from the last concept pic which shows relationship according to the white line on the wall. BIG Difference!

Heres a view from back. Actual spacing between rear tires is yet to be determined, but will be defined by width of the battery pack, frame, sprockets, and other components. Aiming to keep it as narrow as possible without making it too sideways tippy.

[inspiredvoltfreak]

I've got some questions regarding below pics, in my controllers the fets (12 of them) are all the same, yet they are set up differently than I expected to see as they are not all identical. The gate connection on the board always looks the same but the drain and source alternate from left to right like SS-DD-SS-DD-SS-DD. Can someone explain to me why the fets are set up like that? I'm getting really interested in electronics and I want to understand why they would do that?

I am planning to beef up the traces for the fets and upgrade the power and motor wires to handle the extra current. If i'm not upping the voltage, do I need to upgrade the schottkeys or install extra caps?

In the 3rd pic there is RS1 and RS2. I'm guessing this is resistive shunt 1 and 2 for the current limiting. What do I have to do to make the controller allow a larger current? In the first pic I Circled where RS1&2 come through on the board.

[Photos Deleted as obsolete]

[jonescg]

"What do I have to do to make the controller allow a larger current?"

Buy a bigger controller No seriously, you might be able to mod the controller but in general the components are rated to a certain level of abuse, and have heatsinks to suit. The moment you start asking it to do something out of the ordinary and pushing it beyond its normal limits you can potentially burn stuff out. Like me and my Kelly controller - the Motors are expected to pull close to 800 A, but it was easier to just order the biggest controller as practical and let it stay cool. Just because a Datsun 120Y will get up to 160 km/h doesn't mean it will do that speed all the time.

For reference, my RG with two agni motors pulls 520 amps from the line, and the voltage drops to 98 V (from a steady 106 V). If you want the trike to keep up with traffic while still using BL motors, I'd seriously suggest you consider a gearbox.

I was discussing these issues with Rob at EVWorks today as the Agni motors I have are great, but man they are a pain in the arse to work with. Brushless or induction motors would be a less maintenance intensive but the controllers and or inverters aren't really up to the abuse I plan on giving them. I might go for a UQM motor in my next build...


All the best with your build man! I love your quote by the way

PS I still reckon a 2 wheel conversion would be awesome. I don't like trikes, too dangerous

[inspiredvoltfreak]

jones,
I actually am planning on using a gearbox now as i realized with my rear wheel drive plans I have no choice. Not enough room there for a large gear. So I've ordered a pair of gearboxes in to experiment with. I am planning on having about a total 10:1 reduction on 48V which will give me just under 100kph. But having said that I've given up on those controllers i purchased and am in the market for replacements. I wasn't careful enough when i purchased them and they have some sort of anti-theft connector that i can't figure out. No matter what I do I can't get it to run the motor. I can put it in learning mode and it will try to spin the motor but when I use the throttle, nothing! I'm going to go with one that doesn't have all the extra security connectors on it. I am still considering modding a controller but then i found these controllers http://www.newkellycontroller.com/keb48300-150a-p-60.html
Which are an exact match for my bike. No mosfet upgrade required, pc programmable, (99% efficient in most cases), reasonably priced. I start to wonder, I already blew 100 on the last set of controllers, i'm ready to blow another 100 on a new set, plus 50 worth of mosfets. For what?? I'm no electronics expert. I'm just beginning to fiddle with it. I'm probably going to go with the kellys. 2 controllers, programming cable and throttle with matching hand grip for opposite side for only $409 canadian + shipping???

EDIT: "Just bought them, I went back to digikey and realized i was going to spend 100 there not 50. So for double the money, It's a sweet deal!"