Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:38 pm

Yeah, Lipo would be great! but using the best cheap ones from Hobby City would cost me about $2500 and I'm just not ready to shell out that kind of change. Besides, I'm hoping the carbon lead acid battery finally becomes available here within a year or two. (search elecsol, theyre available Overseas) If not, when I pay off the initial build I may consider Lipo at that point. But depends how it's working with the lead Acids.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Cybernezz » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:11 pm

Hey voltfreak,


Finally had time to read all of your build, I see your issues now mate... :|

If you manage to get the gearing right on the gear boxes that you've ordered surely that could tick a couple of boxes?
Would have thought you could reduce the overall voltage you need thus reducing the weight of the SLAs?
Also if you still have the issue with the higher RPM and the controller you have, again that would be fixed wouldnt it?

I've just started reading up on other trike projects so if I see anything obvious I'll come back with it :)
Despite all my practice, pushing bikes home still knock's the sh*t out of me..
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:29 pm

Yeah, just came upon a realization. Lead acids suffer from peukert effect (which i knew) This means the faster you discharge your batteries the less available amp hours in the battery (based on the C rating). To get say 20hp from a motor you can do it through high voltage or high amps or try to even the two out somewhere in the middle. 1 Horsepower is 746 watts so 20x746= 14920 watts. we can get that much watts by 48V x 310A or else we can get it by 72V x 207A. Do you see the trick? A lead acid battery has a C rating of around 1C My continuous draw at highway speed level ground will be 103.5A at 72V and I am getting 115AH batteries. I should then hopefully get close to my rated Amp hours out of the batteries by going this route. I think a lot of guys make a mistake by trying to cram tons of smaller batteries into their frames. Smaller batteries weigh a lot for the amp hours available and they cant put out the C! My only fear is whether this bike will be too heavy but I have access to used batteries with about 60% capacity still in them to try it out with before I go make the battery purchase. So, we'll see how goes.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby x88x » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:39 pm

inspiredvoltfreak wrote:My continuous draw at highway speed level ground will be 103.5A at 72V and I am getting 115AH batteries.

The problem you're going to run into there is that if your highway cruising power draw is actually 103.5A (I would question that; from what I've seen, since cruising speeds tends to be past the current peak if geared properly, so you shouldn't need nearly that much power to maintain speed), then it's going to take a lot more current than that to accelerate to that cruising speed in any sort of a reasonable time.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Hillhater » Wed Mar 09, 2011 9:35 pm

inspiredvoltfreak wrote: ....My continuous draw at highway speed level ground will be 103.5A at 72V and I am getting 115AH batteries. ....


IF those details are accurate,..you do realise how limited your range /run time will be ?? :?
..and i hope you never have to climb a hill anywhere ! :shock:
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Wed Mar 09, 2011 10:34 pm

I don't know what to say guys. All i have is a spreadsheet I found online to go by. No real world testing as of yet. It would actually be really helpful if people could post for me to compare to as follows. The data is my theoretical Data for my bike which is still in progress. If I gear for top speed 80kph my amps draw goes down to 72.5A. This data is also with a 5 mph headwind and climbing a 1 degree hill. Just to help estimate "safer." If I get rid of head wind and hill i get 70.11 amps draw at cruise. Maybe this spreadsheet isn't accurate, I dont know! :roll: If I increase the incline to 5 degrees and eliminate wind I get 177A at cruise :!: That nearly cuts my range in half. This is not news to me :roll: I've been trying to work out numbers in my favor but it comes down to trying the real world item and seeing how it performs (or not) (with the used free batteries) Then I'll decide what the battle plan is. First thing would be to gear down for 80 top speed.

Weight of Bike (including Driver) : 664lbs
Available Horsepower (Max) : 20
Gear Ratio : 13.5:1
Top Speed : 100kph
Average Amps at Full Speed : 103.5A
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:52 pm

I'm doing some comparing to a bike build shown here http://www.electricmotion.org/ called emoto. This is where I got the original spreadsheet that I started working with. He has His spreadsheet with his working numbers up on the web for us to see so I'm going through and comparing to my sheet. Found one interesting thing : more on that later. First I'll post up a reply for his bike specs

Weight of Bike (including Driver) : 650lbs
Available Horsepower (Max) : 28.8
Gear Ratio : 6:1
Top Speed : 71kph
Average Amps at Full Speed : 48A
Lbs/HP : 22.57

Lbs/Hp added on this post, my bike is or (Was) 35lbs per HP. "At 48 Volts" :!: But I've upped to 72 Volts, Posts I've read say as volts goes up so does horsepower and torque. Is there a way to calculate this I wonder? Going to continue mining the spreadsheet for goodies.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Hillhater » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:22 am

inspiredvoltfreak wrote:I'm doing some comparing to a bike build shown here http://www.electricmotion.org/ called emoto. This is where I got the original spreadsheet that I started working with. He has His spreadsheet with his working numbers up on the web for us to see so I'm going through and comparing to my sheet....


I notice that he seems to think that 6x 29 Ahr batteries in series will give him 174 Ahrs total ?
He will be disappointed !

There must be something else missing here,.... he calculates only 48A at 71kph, but on the same voltage you figure 72A @ 80 kph ??
Also, i find the weight horrifying .. 650lbs, =500lbs without rider ! :shock:
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:39 am

Just playing with his spreadsheet a bit sheds some doubt on the validity of his data. Just upping the degrees of hill from 0 to 5 degrees changes his range at cruise from 27miles to 10 miles. I think there may be Gravity data entered wrong here.

As to my last question, a way to calculate horsepower? Is it as simple as using the old watts formula for horsepower as I did a few posts back. If so That puts my motors at the same as his or 28.8HP. That would be Awesome. I know other people have overvolted these motors to 72 and have had little to no heat issues so i think I'm doing alright. If I had to It'd be simple enough to duct some air over the motors to keep them cool. (was planning on doing this anywayz). By the way, for reference, my metro is 25.43lbs/hp and if the formula above works I would have 23.13lbs/hp

Just for fun an 18 degree hill pulls 27.82 hp and drops range to 3.95 Miles :P That can't be right!

I'm not too worried about it now.

Just saw your post!
:P :wink: :P :P :P
OH man, thats hillarious, I didn't really pay attention to that figure! On mine I will supposedly have 690ah :roll: That would give me a range of around 650 miles :!: Yeah right! :wink:

If i gear mine down to same speed I'm still at 65 Amps ??? Oh, Hill degree is the culprit his was 0 mine was 1. Change mine to 0 and get 48Amps draw. It's all relative till I get behind the tank! Still encouraging though. :lol: But imagine this thing on LIPO :twisted:
Last edited by inspiredvoltfreak on Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Thu Mar 10, 2011 12:44 am

Yeah, seems to me if you gotta go lead acid go floodies! AGM gives lower C rate, higher weight, lower ah! Whats the point??? So you can mount it sidewayz!! Giving up a lot. He gets 27ah out of 210lbs. I get 115ah out of 284lbs. Who wins :P
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby x88x » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:12 am

Hillhater wrote:Also, i find the weight horrifying .. 650lbs, =500lbs without rider ! :shock:

Yeah, that caught me by surprise too...that's a big, heavy bike! Though, 210lb of that is all that lead...

voltfreak, if you want to go lead, check out this site before buying flooded (found it here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=46):
http://www.gruberpower.com/gruberpower/ ... batteries/

They have some 135Ah (ie, probably ~80-90Ah usable for an EV, if you go easy on them..remember; lead sags a lot) SLA's for $252. Well, $252 + shipping...I shudder to think what the shipping on a pack of those batteries would be, at 87lb each!
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Hillhater » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:47 am

inspiredvoltfreak wrote:...Just for fun an 18 degree hill pulls 27.82 hp and drops range to 3.95 Miles :P That can't be right!
...:


Oh, i dont know !...an 18deg hill is one mutha to haul 650lbs up . !
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:14 am

I took another look at my spreadsheet last night and realized the amp hours cell we were talking about is part of his calculations for watt hours available in the battery pack :!: :!: :shock: That got me scared but i was too tired to figure it out last night. When I got up this morning I searched ES and found this page http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21887&p=319555&hilit=calculate+watt+hours+of+battery+pack#p319555 where amberwolf says watt hours is calculated as voltage of pack x amp hours of pack. apparently current multiplies in series. So i plugged the numbers into my spreadsheet and held my breath and crossed my fingers and crossed my toes and . . . :twisted: 8280 watt hours available! . . . But wait, wasnt that what was available b4??? So i put it back and yes it was! So I tried it on his spreadsheet and it gives the same results. It doesnt appear to matter. (voltage of pack x amp hours of pack) or (voltage of cell x (ah of baterry x number of batteries)) Both give the same result! Oh well, Happy riding! :mrgreen:
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby x88x » Thu Mar 10, 2011 3:42 pm

inspiredvoltfreak wrote:apparently current multiplies in series

No. Current (A) and current capacity (Ah) builds in parallel, voltage (V) builds in series. However, the way he did it (V*Ah_per_bat*Num_bat) is more versatile because it doesn't roll the battery arrangement into the calculation (like, say, pack_Ah*pack_V would). No matter how you arrange them, the power capacity (Wh) of a pack is not going to change. The voltage, current availability, and current capacity will change, but not the power capacity.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:01 am

x88x wrote:
Hillhater wrote:Also, i find the weight horrifying .. 650lbs, =500lbs without rider ! :shock:

Yeah, that caught me by surprise too...that's a big, heavy bike! Though, 210lb of that is all that lead...

voltfreak, if you want to go lead, check out this site before buying flooded (found it here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=46):
http://www.gruberpower.com/gruberpower/ ... batteries/

They have some 135Ah (ie, probably ~80-90Ah usable for an EV, if you go easy on them..remember; lead sags a lot) SLA's for $252. Well, $252 + shipping...I shudder to think what the shipping on a pack of those batteries would be, at 87lb each!


I checked out the batteries you suggested. I am set on going floodies and not paying $252 per battery+ shipping. I could get AGM'S from my works battery supplier delivered to my door for less than that. Thanks for the suggestion anyways!
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:22 am

I just realized I've been saying i bought 12 fet infineons from Lyen when in fact I bought 18 fet infineons. Good thing I can keep track of my stuff eh! :roll: Going back now to correct my posts. Yes I'm a bit of a perfectionist.

The basically finished rear frame is complete now, other than mounting motors/gearboxes and I brought them home to test it out for stability etc. only to discover I left my wheel nuts at work! :roll:

You know I do plan on completing this project some day.

I'm gonna go out tomorrow and buy two wheel nuts, one for each side so I can at least admire the thing a little bit.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:38 pm

Hey Guys,
I just realized the only thing holding me up from doing a test drive is to get the motors mounted and mock up some temporary batteries, the roblem is, I cant mount my motors because i'm still up in the air on a pair of gearboxes. I ordered some cheap ones in from china because for the price and ease of mounting to my motors I had to take the chance, but they proved unsuitable. (Though i'm definately going to use it on my next project, a gokart for my kids) :twisted: So, I'm back at square 1. I don't have a lot of machining equipment (basic drill press, belt sander) so machining something complex is out. :roll: I have to go 2 stage reduction with the final stage bieng a 2 to 1 due to space limitations where it mounts to the wheel. The middle drive will need to be in the range 6 to 7 to 1 and be able to handle the 12,960 rpm my motor will be spinning at. I was planning on doing the final drive with a chain.

I am wondering if someone can give me a lead on a good cheap (gearbox, belt drive, chain drive) that might fit the bill. I am also considering building my own drive unit as I can do it, but I don't know about the gears, belts, pulleys etc.

I am considering using V belt pulleys as they are readily available near my home. But i have not found a single thread where these have been used which makes me think there must be a reason. Can someone direct me on this. I don't want to make any more stupid or unnecessary purchases.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:50 pm

http://motorbicycling.com/f23/4g-t-belt-drive-replacement-trans-17328.html I've seen this unit and it looks promising to me. Though I would have to confirm I can get myself to more than 2:1 on the final drive. Any other suggestions?
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Sun Mar 13, 2011 9:30 pm

http://www.partsforscooters.com/CVT-Transmission Here's another one, question is, would a trannie built for a 49cc engine stand up to 10-12 peak horsepower? I think not.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby gwhy! » Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:37 pm

inspiredvoltfreak wrote:http://www.partsforscooters.com/CVT-Transmission Here's another one, question is, would a trannie built for a 49cc engine stand up to 10-12 peak horsepower? I think not.

A CVT Will fit the bill perfectly ( as your project is so heavy ) it will make so much easier on the controllers. Im not sure about that particular cvt if it would stand up, but one off of a 50cc auto road scooter will, so at a guess I would say yes. The other question is how configurable is that cvt in the link ?. At least if you were to use a auto scoot cvt you can tune them to give you the performance that you want ( all the tune up parts are available ) also if you did use the complete cvt out of a scoot it also has a gear reduction on the output as well. Just a thought..
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Wed Mar 16, 2011 9:48 am

How can I know it will work? Unless i'm mistaken a 50cc scooter engine is typically under 5 horsepower. (My TOMOS was under 2.5HP) I will likely be pulling over 10, Quality is also a concern. Is the trannies listed for scooters that sell for $3500 or are they for pocket bikes that sell for $350. I want reliability over al and am willing to sacrifice speed to get it (to a point) I think I will go with a home built chain drive reduction with parts readily available. I don't want to deal with snapped belts, stuck weights, misaligned or poor quality bearings. Thanks for the input.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby gwhy! » Wed Mar 16, 2011 10:30 am

inspiredvoltfreak wrote:How can I know it will work? Unless i'm mistaken a 50cc scooter engine is typically under 5 horsepower. (My TOMOS was under 2.5HP) I will likely be pulling over 10, Quality is also a concern. Is the trannies listed for scooters that sell for $3500 or are they for pocket bikes that sell for $350. I want reliability over al and am willing to sacrifice speed to get it (to a point) I think I will go with a home built chain drive reduction with parts readily available. I don't want to deal with snapped belts, stuck weights, misaligned or poor quality bearings. Thanks for the input.


Thats why I suggested a 50cc or 125cc scooter tranny , stock they are good upto around 15-20hp and can be got for around 50uk pounds from bike breakers. I have never snapped a belt but normally after around 20k miles rollers and ramps and maybe clutch will have to be serviced ( but this is minimal cost and very easy to do ), I currently have a 39hp scooter that has around 80k miles on the clock and is still going strong and in its life time it has had 1 new clutch and 2 sets of rollers and 4 new belts and is due for a new one.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:07 pm

Just wanted to give an update. I have decided to go with Chain and Gears for both primary and secondary reductions. I'm glad to say that I am actually able to go to more than a 2 to 1 reduction on the final drive due to figuring out a solution to the space issue. At present it is still a 2 to 1 redux on the secondary and I have the gears mounted in place.

I took my wheel components from a front wheel drive Honda Civic w/ 12" 4 bolt rims. I did this specifically from a FWD so I could do THIS to the cv joint!

Image

CV Joint Head prepped. Sorry, forgot to take pics in between but I took a piece of 1" wide by 1/8" thick steel flat stock and spot welded it to the CV hub and then proceeded to clamp in a vise and hammer the metal all the way around until it was forming a tube. I then welded the ends together and cut the weld on the CV hub so the tube was free of the hub. I now had a perfectly fitting tube. I laid the tube on top of my final gear, measured it carefully and welded.

Image

And finally here is a pic of the gear mounted to hub.

Image

And the two drive assemblies

Image

I am waiting on some primary gears ordered online to come in before I can build the reductions.

Getting a little impatient every time i Gas Up the Metro!! :evil:
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby x88x » Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:41 pm

Interesting. So will this be a tilting trike? Or were the CV joints important for some other reason..
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:07 pm

Those are what's left of the CV joint. I removed the shaft and CV bearings and installed the sprocket in its place. No, not a tilting trike. I didn't feel up to building in all that complexity.
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