Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Wed Apr 13, 2011 10:10 am

Ok, A little update, I Built my first primary reduction!!! Yeah!!! Though it's not yet complete. I need to pick up some idler sprockets to keep the chain tensioned. Here is a pic of my battery setup,
Image
which shows I'm using crappy little jumper wires to wire up my batteries. They're only good for about 10 amps (blown a few) so during testing I know i'm below that amperage and yet my torque is just amazing. The reduction I built is only 7 to 1 but reduces 2 to 1 on the secondary stage so total 14 to 1. Just at 7 to 1 with the throttle at about 10% the final gear wants to rip my fingers off. I'm not worried about driving on level ground anymore. This thing will climb at least moderate hills. Here's a video of the gear reduction in action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_6TaMwcV3E
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Sun May 01, 2011 1:42 am

BIG Update! Been getting quite frustrated playing the waiting game but I am glad to say I completed the Gear boxes and got them installed on the rear frame over the last 3 weeks. Brought the rear frame home just this last Friday and installed it and things are looking up. I tied all the batteries and the controllers on for a test drive (all temporary locations). Results posted below. Short but sweet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR_2uzS3sbQ

I tested it outside in my back lane and It's not quite running right. I can only get up to about 35 kph and it takes about 10 seconds. The good news is the motors are running cold and my current draw for both motors at 35 is only about 25 amps so It's not that I'm overworking the motors. I suspect it's an issue with the controller programming but I haven't had a chance to really check it out. I'll do more programming tomorrow. It feels good to have it running as well as it is so far. I'll take more pics and post them tomorrow. The original gearbox posted a few posts back was not used, I remade them.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Mon May 02, 2011 9:59 am

Well, after some initial testing I briefly disconnected a controller from power and upon reconnection had a huge spark on the terminals.
The following describes in order what happened next.
1. The controller stopped working
2. I did some testing trying to figure it out, (disconnecting, reconnecting, check for power etc)
3. Realized I heard a click every time I connected the ignition wire?? :?
4. Realized working controller has no such click???? :? :?
5. Realized the controller was solid state and had nothing inside that could click????????? :? :? :?
6. Thought (spark jumping inside case is the click???)
7. Took controller out of casing to inspect
8. Connected power
9. BANG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shock:
10. Dropped control board
11. Flames shooting across surface of control board! :shock: :shock: :shock:
12. Disconnected power

:twisted: FLAMES!!!!!!!!!

OOPS! :mrgreen:

I guess the spark was grounding itself through the case :lol: 8)

Image
Image


It's worth noting that there is another possible cause to this problem. I had decided to experiment with the anti theft motor lock setting on the controller which had resulted in some smoke just previously to disconnecting and reconnecting power, this was done to re-program the controller. Considering one of the 4110 fets is blown to bits I'm wondering if the problem was actually the fet being toast before I ever reconnected and got that spark. When I had the motor lock set high I had brief heating of wires and smoke.

Any suggestions on what components I should replace on the controller? Besides the obvious failures of one fet and a capacitor?
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby AussieJester » Mon May 02, 2011 7:24 pm

inspiredvoltfreak wrote:Any suggestions on what components I should replace on the controller? Besides the obvious failures of one fet and a capacitor?


Bad luck with the controller, the video of the trike was cool good to see it running
albeit briefly. I am thinking of going for a Kelly controller i don't think Infineons
are up to the job of running the big Turnigys TBH seen many popped now from 6-24 fet
And running 36 fet Infineon on a bicycles looks absolutely ridiculous so i dont see that as an option
and for the price your better off wit a Kelly i think?.
Kelly now offer a Ultra High Speed Firmware 100k ERPM upgrade on their controller
..they are very expensive in comparison to the Infinons.

Best of luck...

KiM
Last edited by AussieJester on Tue May 03, 2011 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Tue May 03, 2011 9:33 am

I would buy another infineon in a second if it wasn't for the fact that it didn't work right from the start. I'm really leaning toward that the current sensing circuit was not set up properly. I used heavy 1 guage cable between all my batteries and then in the final stage going to the controllers I soldered on 4 smaller 8 gauge wires, twisted them and ran two of the four to each controler. There is absolutely now way the wire is cutting my current. Pics below.

Image
Image
Image


I then went into the software and set phase current to 160 and rated current to 57. Everything theoretically opened wide up yet both motors with both controllers wouldn't pull more than 30 amps if I was WOT, with my setup I should've been able to pull 100 continuous. Right from stall to 35kph I never got over 30amps, after 10 min driving the motors were still cold as if I hadn't run them. I can' help thinking my controllers are cutting current when they shouldn't be.

I want to get my one motor and controller working properly before I invest in another controller the same as I have. Judging by how the dual motor setup performed I should be able to get my bike running on just 1 motor controller and have the same or better power as I did with two not working properly.

So you know the motors are setup in a dual stage 7:1 and then 2:1 ratio so 14:1 total. The motor at WOT unloaded is about 14,000 rpm at 72 V. Stalling the motor on level ground was not a problem, I even climbed the hill out of the parkade starting from stall on the hill. Again, motors never even got warm.

Any thoughts?

Here's pic of 1 gear reduction drive.

Image
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby AussieJester » Tue May 03, 2011 10:37 am

Not as far as the infineons go no hopeful someone else will? i found the one i used on my Turnigy to
be nothing but a gutless piece of crap phase current set on 150 battery 60amp Couldnt pull the skin off
a bowl of custard and thats on a 35kilo e-bicyle running 50v 25c LiPo! Hope you figure it out buddy ;-)

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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Thu May 05, 2011 8:27 pm

Did some testing tonight with my one good controller. I tried switching the control board parameter to 15 fet and 12 fet so the shunt value changes. Sure enough as was stated by others it increases the current draw and power coming out of the motor. Set at 15 fet it performed a little better but set to 12 fet put it in overload as soon as you open the throttle. But it pulled pretty good. At least the motors got slightly warm but the controller was getting hot after only 30 second test bursts. I'm at a loss, there's no controller for these motors. Contemplating switching to brushed motors, I can Build a freakin monster controller for one of those myself, that's easy! This brushless stuff is no mans land. You have to have a good understanding of electronics to diagnose this stuff.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby AussieJester » Thu May 05, 2011 9:15 pm

inspiredvoltfreak wrote: I'm at a loss, there's no controller for these motors. Contemplating switching to brushed motors, I can Build a freakin monster controller for one of those myself, that's easy! This brushless stuff is no mans land. You have to have a good understanding of electronics to diagnose this stuff.


Well there is controllers for these they are just hell expensive Google Sevcon... You will see a few of the lads using these soon i know of 3 people
who have them on order. You definitely should have opted for a Perm or an Agni if the budget allows IMHO thats alot of weight for those motors, very underpowered, and IIRC we did tell you this from the geko IIRC. :lol:

From page one

liveforphysics wrote:Motor bad choice.

That as trike won't turn.


AussieJester wrote:^^ Agreed...far too heavy for the motors you have picked, be lucky to ride out of sight on a dark night without burning the motors/controller up or tipping over...Would be doing ALOT more research before purchasing anything.

KiM


Best of luck with the brushed motors you will have ALOT more joy i think...keep at it
the trike itself has come together nicely, well cept for lack of diff and all loL

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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby jonescg » Fri May 06, 2011 7:57 am

Yeah, sadly the brushless motors don't have the oomph you would want from a motor. As far as I can tell the problem lies in the controllers. As much as changing brushes is a pest, they are a better motor for this application.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Bluefang » Fri May 06, 2011 9:45 am

Um, its very easy to fix the problem your having with the controller, There was a recent thread somewhere about a better programmer for the inferon controllers that increased the amp output, i have not been able to find it or i would have posted a link to it :(. Otherwise it kinda sounds like the controller isnt reading your shunts properly, so just add a big blob of solder to the shunts, should be like 3 or 4 of them. Then try the controller again with lower settings in the current boxes and increase till your happy. If you still dont get to the power you want or what you think the controller can handle you can add more solder to the shunts, or replace the shunts with bigger ones or add more.

With 72V you 18fet should be able to pump quite alot of power into the turnigy, probably more then it can handle so if its not getting hot then the controller isnt working hard enough :)
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Arlo1 » Fri May 06, 2011 7:05 pm

I have a sevcon comeing as well. They retail ~1300 for the highest rated one a G8055 up to 116 volts and 660 amps phase current for 30 seconds!

Those motors were not very good for what you are trying to do.
You should get one collossus!
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Sat May 07, 2011 1:34 pm

Yeah, I blew up my other controller last night. I'm thinking of putting my motor/gearboxes up for sale and just getting the brushed motors. I was considering esc's with a current limiting circuit but i'd have to buy the hv160's minimum and its a huge gamble. The motors will be $1000 and then I have to construct or buy a controller, but i can be really confident with that kind of set up.

Sometimes you try to go the cheapest road and you end up losing out big time.

On second thought, If i connected my motor/gearboxes to some small go carts that could be a lot of fun. :) If it was small diameter wheels i could probably run it off a cheap brushless esc without burning anything up. Would be a 7 to 1 ratio. I guess I'll have to put the motors on the shelf for now. :( Seems everyone here has one of those shelves :P
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Arlo1 » Sat May 07, 2011 3:59 pm

inspiredvoltfreak wrote:Yeah, I blew up my other controller last night. I'm thinking of putting my motor/gearboxes up for sale and just getting the brushed motors. I was considering esc's with a current limiting circuit but i'd have to buy the hv160's minimum and its a huge gamble. The motors will be $1000 and then I have to construct or buy a controller, but i can be really confident with that kind of set up.

Sometimes you try to go the cheapest road and you end up losing out big time.

On second thought, If i connected my motor/gearboxes to some small go carts that could be a lot of fun. :) If it was small diameter wheels i could probably run it off a cheap brushless esc without burning anything up. Would be a 7 to 1 ratio. I guess I'll have to put the motors on the shelf for now. :( Seems everyone here has one of those shelves :P

You can not run those motors from a loaded dead stop with any cheep controler!!!!!
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Sat May 07, 2011 5:06 pm

Doesn't matter at this point, I'm going with a brushed system as replacement and want it idiot proof. I'm going to undo all the rear end work I did to install whats there now and replace it with a solid rear diff from some small car.

Here's what I'm thinking of using.

Motor Mars ME0709 72V 125A continuous 300A peak http://www.evdrives.com/mars_motor_me0709_etek-rt.html
Controller 72V 400A w/regen http://kellycontroller.com/kd7240124-72v400apm-with-regen-p-239.html

The bike is in the 650lb range, anyone see a problem with this setup?
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby AussieJester » Sat May 07, 2011 8:22 pm

Nope thats pretty standard looking shopping list for a small motorcyle conversion, should be
rock solid reliable. I might be interested in one or two of the Turnigy motors if you have them in a month or two
keen to try rewinding one myself ;-)

Best of luck

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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Wed May 11, 2011 10:12 am

Well, The deed is done! Ordered my new controller and motor from Kelly Controllers. Got them to drop the price of the motor $65 US Dollars because I found it elsewhere cheaper. This weekend I will be going to my local salvage yard to get a rear Diff to use with my single motor approach. Any suggestions on a diff to use? I want it not too wide, not too heavy and with smaller diameter wheels. An aluminum body would be awesome but i don't think I've ever seen that before. My current best guess is a late model mustang or maybe a 4wd Honda car if they have a solid rear diff. (pretty sure honda made some 4wd) I now subaru is likely out as they have a diff with cv axles coming out of it and independent suspension. Of course it would have to be a car available in canada.

I'm going to strip the bike down this week so I can get my frame into work to cut off motor mounts and try to weld in battery supports.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Sat May 14, 2011 9:35 am

Just wanted to post a link to another project I've started while I wait on parts. This one's for the kids!! :mrgreen:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=28022
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Gordo » Sat May 14, 2011 8:46 pm

inspiredvoltfreak wrote:Doesn't matter at this point, I'm going with a brushed system as replacement and want it idiot proof. I'm going to undo all the rear end work I did to install whats there now and replace it with a solid rear diff from some small car.

Here's what I'm thinking of using.

Motor Mars ME0709 72V 125A continuous 300A peak http://www.evdrives.com/mars_motor_me0709_etek-rt.html
Controller 72V 400A w/regen http://kellycontroller.com/kd7240124-72v400apm-with-regen-p-239.html

The bike is in the 650lb range, anyone see a problem with this setup?


I just remembered I have a couple of rear diff's from golf carts in the back yard plus a brushed motor or 2. If you want them, I'll just have to figure out a way to get them across the pond to you.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:49 pm

Well, it's been a while, but the work has continued none the less. I had to dismantle my bike and bring the frame components into work for modifications. I have modified the engine area of the frame to accept 4 group 27 batteries and still have to modify the frame to hold the other 2, jury's still out on final placement. I decided not to go with a solid rear diff as they are just too friekishly heavy and have gone with a rear diff from a subaru awd car. The diff mounts to the frame and then has CV shafts attached. I have shortened the shafts to fit the existing wheel width I had already designed and the diff is already mounted in place with the motor mounted on top. I just have some minor modifications to make to the rear frame and then I'll paint it and re-assemble. I test ran the motor at 24 volts today with no problems and I'm looking forward to a real test run. If all goes well I could possibly try it out for real by this weekend! But that's only if all goes well.

Anyway, Here's some pics of what's been going on.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Green Machine » Sun Jul 03, 2011 1:14 pm

Nice work...You got an idea on the expected weight of your rig once finished?
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Tue Jul 12, 2011 9:40 pm

It's somewhere between 550-600lbs, yeah it's a monster! I took it for a test drive on sunday but i have a small change to make with the mounting of two batteries before I bother posting anything up. I'm happy to report though that without even programming the controller it spins the tires. Hopefully there's some goodies in there to unlock still.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Hillhater » Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:06 pm

do you really intend to run those driveshafts & CV joints at that angle ?
..If so, have a few spare joints on standby !
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby Whiplash » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:52 pm

I would try to get them flatter for sure for efficiency's sake, but I doubt they will break with the elec motor. The power is too smooth to break them I would think..
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:52 pm

Yeah, I thought about that, I have to check my clearances under the batteries to see if it can be brought up a bit. No noise whatsoever from the cv's when i drive it. More pics and video to be posted soon. This project has been ongoing since early january and i need to get it done so I can start paying it off so actual work is taking precidence over posting.
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Re: Honda CBR 400 Trike w/ Dual Turnigy 80-100-A 180Kv

Postby inspiredvoltfreak » Sun Jul 17, 2011 9:22 am

Well, no clearance to bring the differential up. :? So it will have to stay there. I have changed the mounting of the batteries so there isn't one where the gas tank used to be and it has been moved down under the seat beside the other one. I'd post pics but my bberry is in the bedroom with my wife who is sleeping. :roll: She's pregnant and so is entitled to a little more sleep. I'll try to get them posted later today. I moved the battery to get better stability and it also will allow me to use the gas tank area to build a "glove box" of sorts. I'm also going to lower the front end a little to bring COG down and get a better angle on the front fork. Right now when the front wheel hits a bump it tries to knock the wheel to the left or the right so on the bumpy patch of road behind my apartment it's quite nasty. :x A good friend of mine is going to help me with designing the body. My plan is to put up a layer of thin ABS and glue foam to it. I will then cut and sand the foam to the shapes I want and then fiberglass over and paint it. Similar process to how the Tri-Magnum's are built. My buddy took pictures and is going to use them to draw up some concept art. He's an amazing artist so I expect only good things. I'll post up his images when i get them. I guess that's it for now.
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