RVD's first ebike (TidalForce S-750, 9C 2807, etc.)

This thread is where I will document my progress on building my first e-bike.

My goal is to build a decent electric bike that I can use for my 17 miles (each way) commute. The route is 95%+ on a bike trail so there are almost no traffic lights, etc. I commute along this trail on my road bike 1-2x/wk but am simply too tired and unmotivated to ride any more than that. I am hoping that this project will give me the motivation to commute more via bike than car.

I would like to build a fairly good quality bike trying to balance expenses and quality. I don't generally plan to go for the cheapest option (e.g. ebay motor, SLA batteries, etc.) but also not the most expensive option (bionx kit, etc.).

My initial thread asking for advice, etc.: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=27426

I started doing research on 4/27/2011. I have 3 bikes at home but 2 of them were immediately ruled out for ebike conversion (1 Cervelo RS road bike, 1 Trek 6500 mountain bike, 1 cheap costco mountain bike). I use the Cervelo and Trek fairly often and don't want to convert them. The cheap costco bike is possible but it's just too cheap of a bike. I wanted something nice so I decided to get a new frame as well. The TidalForce frames look nice and seem built for e-bikes so I decided on one of those. I contact oatnet and it turned out that he lives a few miles from me. We arranged for a local pickup but realized that his local pickup place is 2 blocks from my house so he offered to just deliver in person! I went with the TF S-750 kit that includes the fork, handlebars, brakes, cables, seat post, saddle, etc. I also purchased his additional option for an extra sturdy kick stand + quick release front wheel.

For the motor, I decided to go with a 9c 2807 rear hub motor mounted on a wheel. It is from e-bikekits. I went with the advice from Edward Lyen in the group who basically summed it up by recommending the 2807 over the 2806 because the gearless hub would allow me to grow later if I choose to add more power, etc. It's also more durable, can handle regenerative braking, etc.

Rather than go with the standard kit from e-bikekits or e-bikes (which I think are fine), I choose to upgrade the controller to one of Lyen's controllers. I believe that this will allow me to have more control and have the ability to increase power in the future if I choose to do so. While doing this, I also purchased other accessories that Edward Lyen carriers including throttle, electric brake lever, torque arm, CycleAnalyst, etc.

For the battery, this is where things got complicated. I was pretty much set on getting a LiFePo4 48v 20ah battery from Ping. However, I did not like the 3 week wait (I tend to be a bit impatient). I was also not happy about the weight. I contemplated a local but relatively unknown source (John from Golden Oasis in the Chicago suburb of Hoffman Estates (search on ES for "48V LiFePo4 ebay")) but he didn't have the battery in stock. This is when I decided to go lipo instead. I realize the increased danger in lipo but I am a very careful and conservative person by nature so I think I will be ok as long as I tread carefully and slowly.

I purchased 8 turnigy 6s 5000mah 20c lipo packs from hobbyking. I also purchased some stuff like battery medic, voltage detectors, diagnostic meters, voltage analyzers, charger, etc.

I think I have most of the major spending out of the way. Here is the summary so far (edit: removed prices):

TidalForce S-750 frame, fork, bars, seat post, saddle, brakes, kick stand, front rim, pedals, etc. from oatnet
9C 2807 motor / wheel from e-bikekits - $240
9 FET 72V Infineon Brushless Controller (LYEN's Edition), CycleAnalyst, throttle, torque arm, e brake levers, usb-ttl adapter, speed switch
8 Turnigy 6c 5000 mah 20c lipo packs from HobbyKing
charger, battery medic, voltage detectors, diagnostic meters, voltage analyzers, etc. - $149.54

Total so far: $1000+

However, maybe it's just my justification of spending but I think the actual spend on building an e-bike if you already have a bike (so you want to convert) is closer to $1000-$1200. Stuff like the CycleAnalyst isn't necessary and some of the tools are things that aren't totally necessary either. I already have all of the bike tools so I don't need to spend anything there. I also consider everything outside of the core stuff to be accessories (like a helmet, lock, gloves, etc.).

The frame is here. Everything else is in the mail. I expect most (if not all) of this stuff to be here within about 1 week.

Since I received the frame today from oatnet, here's a post about setting it up.



The box. You can see my wife's Townie Electra in the background as well as a glimpse of the cheap costco bike behind it.



The frame was pretty well packed without any cranks, etc. pointing out of the box.



The seat post area came plugged (which was nice to see).



The frame out of the box. As you can see, it came pretty well padded with all of the edges enclosed in foam and plastic to prevent scratches. You can see my Cervelo RS road bike in the background as well as one of my 5 year old son's bikes (he has 4 bikes). You can also see my son's electric car on the left (the grave digger monster car). I guess you can also see some of my other bike stuff like my trainer, wheel truing stand, etc.



A picture with the heavy duty kick stand + front wheel. I don't have a kick stand on my other bikes (I guess I'm just used to saving the weight) but this is the first bike where I don't care as much about weight so it will have not only a kick stand but a heavy duty one! The front wheel isn't anything special but it's enough to get the job done. I'm not sure what kind of hub is on the wheel. The spokes are ok. The wheel didn't come with rim tape so I'll probably tape it up and then put in a mountain bike tire (I have some extras lying around).



I tried to install the kick stand but it was a bit of a pain so I just figured I'd put the bike up on my bike stand. I installed the seat post and put the bike up to the stand. You can also catch a glimpse of the back tire of my son's 2nd bike (his main one).



Almost everything is installed. I installed the saddle, handlebars, kick stand, and pedals. Here you can see my son's bike in all of it's glory. It's a heavy steel framed bike that is much heavier than my road bike and even heavier than my aluminum frame mountain bike.



Cleaner picture with the plastic and foam removed.



Everything was in great shape but there were a few minor scratches. Nothing to bother me though. The kick stand had a scratch.



The saddle had some padding scraped off the nose. I rarely use factory saddles so I will probably swap this out with one of my extra saddles lying around anyway.



Some scratches on the right crank. Still not a big deal and doesn't affect functionality.



I realized that the front brakes had to be installed as well so I installed it.



Closeup of the fork.

Overall, I think this is a great kit for the money. The frame is high quality and strong so it's perfect for an e-bike. To be honest I am generally used to working with higher quality components but I'm also used to paying a lot more for components so this is still great for the money. This came with a drivetrain, handlebars, seat post, saddle, pedals, cabling, bottom bracket, crank, etc...so it's a great deal. I would have likely spent 2x on this stuff so this was a money saver for me.

Look sweet, You might want replace the seat and put wide seat for the comfort long riding.

I had same seat as yours, It really very uncomfortable long riding, I determined try out use my old iZip's seat and fitted on my Tidalforce. WOW it was so comfortable sit on wide seat.

ah cool. i do plan to swap out the saddle. i will likely just swap it out with a brooks saddle. they're heavy but pretty comfortable. i also have an extra fizik alliante from my road bike that i liked but it's still a road bike saddle (so not very plush).

Great thread. I think you will love this bike. The only item I'd recommend is a Thudbuster LT suspension seat post.

Ambrose

+1 on ambroseliao's comment. Get a Thudbuster LT suspension seat post. Very worthwhile investment.

I read through Ambrose's blog last week so I saw his thudbuster. Since it looks like the tidalforce S-750 has a 30.6 diameter for the seat post, which size thud buster is best? The closest sizes appear to be 27.2 and 30.9 but I'm guessing that 30.9 is too big. Is 27.2 + shim the only option?

I'll keep a watch out on ebay for any deals. I don't think I'll purchase a new one quite yet...

That's how I bought mine. I received an email alert from eBay that there was one with a BIN price of $35 with $7 shipping. WOOT! Grabbed it and have enjoyed it.

Ambrose

I was kind of bored last night and none of my stuff has arrived yet from China, all over the US, etc. I figured since I have the bike frame and I got the front wheel from oatnet, I can go to work on building the front wheel. I had an old tire lying around (hardly used) and some extra tubes so I installed them onto the new tire. Once I got the front tire on, it almost looked like a full bike (it was just missing the rear tire). The I realized that I can just pull the rear tire off my mountain bike to take the new tidalforce for a spin.

On another note, I just did a metric century the night before (Sunday) for Tour de Cure (American Diabetes Association) and it was really tough (over 4000 feet of climbing) so my legs were sore and the last thing I wanted to do was ride my bike. But I took this bike out anyway and went for a quick spin around the block.

The tidalforce frame is nice. It's sturdy and responds well. It's fairly heavy (and I don't even have a motor or batteries yet) but ok. The front suspension fork is nice but makes some squishy sounds sometimes.

Either way, it was fun to at least take the bike out there. Some pics:



The bike up on the stand. Front and rear wheel are installed. The brakes needed some adjustment but overall it was very straightforward.



Bike off the stand and ready to get moving. The heavy duty kick stand is nice.



It looks like plenty of clearance for the brake disc but there's no motor back there so that doesn't mean anything...



Parked in its space next to my road bike.

Hey RVD,

Can you do me a favor? If you're bored and have some time, I would love to see a photograph of the kickstand in the up position and the clearance between the crank arms and the kickstand.

I've modified my S-750 by going to a larger 52T chainring and road crank arms. They are straighter and narrower than the stock cranks that came with the S-750. I would love to have the double-arm kickstand, however, I'm not certain it would work with my straight crank arms.

Thanks,
Ambrose

Sure Ambrose, I'll do that tonight (assuming I remember)...

Do me favor, Please upgrade the disc brake instead the V-Brake on the front and Because I tested my V-Brake really gave me difficult full stop.

I upgraded RockShox Trail 289 fork has the caliper mount and It's very worth while. I can able full stop real short distance and the disc was very hot. Imagine V-brake shoe melt and fade away so fast = more chance get into accident or crash. :lol:

Here my Tidalforce picture with the front disc mount on it, After took the picture and I upgraded iZip wide seat on my Tidalforce.

I am upgrading to hydraulic disc brakes for the front. I use hydraulics on my mountain bike and I really like them so I am going that route here as well at least in the front.

I got some of my stuff in yesterday (Lyen controller, cycleanalyst, e-brakes, 1-2-3 switch, throttle, etc. Without a motor and batteries there isn't a whole lot to do with these but I did get them installed on the handlebars.



From left to right (way left is not pictured): grip, left grip shifter, left brake (front), CycleAnalyst on stem, right grip shifter, right brake (back), 1-2-3 switch, throttle, grip.

It does look a little odd with the 2 grips things on the right (shifter + throttle) but i don't really see any way around it. I figure that I won't use the right shifter that much so it's more important to have easy access to the throttle and brakes. I could swap out the grip shifters for thumb shifters at some point but that's probably much later.

For the wiring, I have it all bunched up on the left. It would be great if I can get it all through the frame but the openings are too small to handle all of the wiring. It would have been nicer if tidalforce made larger openings in the frame for cables. I will likely go with using a nylon type sheath to bunch of the cables together to send them to the back.

As for the e-brakes, I am probably going to keep the rear brakes as V-brakes for now and hook up the e-brakes to the rear brakes (right). My front brakes (left) will be replaced with the hydraulic brakes when they come in.

I plan to get a rear rack and hook up the controller to the rack. My batteries will go in pannier bags balanced left and right over the rear axle.

Some minor updates. Cables are through the frame (which barely fit). I installed the front speed sensor for the CycleAnalyst. Cables are tied down to the frame and tidied up. I was going to go with a nylon sheath (similar to el_steak) but I don't think I'll need it. Batteries are here. I will be playing around with a few different configurations but will likely end up at 12s4p lipo. I will take baby steps to get there though and start with 6s1p, 6s2p, 12s1p, 12s2p, and finally 12s4p. One of the reasons why I am going lipo is the flexibility. I may eventually try 18s3p or even 24s2p at some point.

I took it out for a spin with the batteries in the panniers and as expected, the bike is heavy and the balance is a bit too rear heavy. I just don't see any way to install the batteries in the triangle or front on this frame. I looked into some front wheel panniers and that might work (the kind that people use for touring bikes) but I don't know how much that will affect handling (I'm guessing that handling won't be good).

My butt is used to sitting on my sit bones for hours on those thin and hard road bike saddles so this saddle is actually pretty comfortable for me. I'm still on the lookout for a nice brooks saddle (or I may just pull it off my other bike) and I'm on the lookout on ebay to replace the saddle post since y'all keep telling me to do that...

I also installed a bottle cage after I took these pictures. I had an old one lying around so I installed it. I know that the rear controller needs to be air cooled so it will likely be stored in the rear pannier top but mounted on top of the bag when riding.

Still pending: 9c 2807 hub motor. Once that is in, I can actually take the bike out with the motor.

To Do List:
1) install rear hub wheel + motor (arrives next week)
2) install front disc brake (end of next week)
3) try to install rear disc brake (end of next week)
4) wires / cabling (end of next week)
5) build battery housing solution for panniers - I am actually planning to use 4 of these (http://www.officedepot.com/a/products/452333/Really-Useful-Boxes-Plastic-Storage-Box/?cm_mmc=452333). I plan to set up 2 6s lipo packs in each one in parallel. 2 boxes fit on each side pannier just right. So at full capacity I will have 6s4p in each pannier and then will hook them up in series and then the battery. This should allow for easy charging since each pannier is just 6s4p. Once charged, I can hook them up together for 12s4p. I'm still thinking this through...
6) extend electric brake wire to controller (low priority) - if i don't go with disc brakes

I am primarily just waiting for parts to arrive. Most of the stuff should be here this next week including the motor, charger, battery medic / multimeter / etc., solder iron, wires, anderson powerpoles, tires, disc brakes, etc.

This project has hit a little bit of a snag. I suppose part of it is my fault but I bought the 2807 motor w/ wheel from e-bikekits and it took awhile to get it (probably about 1.5 weeks or so). But when I got it, I realized that it didn't come with a freewheel since I didn't buy the entire kit but just the wheel. I thought this because:

1) the freewheel is in the picture at http://www.e-bikekit.com/shop/index.php?p=product&id=114&parent=8 which is the link that I used to buy the wheel.
2) the freewheel is NOT mentioned at http://www.e-bikekit.com/shop/index.php?p=product&id=110&parent=4 where they detail out everything that the kit includes. i figured this meant that since it wasn't on the "included" list and it's surely really included, it just means that it's part of the wheel.

But in the end, i thought wrong so I got the wheel, emailed them, and placed another order for a freewheel. That was the day after I received the wheel and after placing the order, it's another week to get it. The freewheel should arrive tomorrow.

I couldn't wait so I tried to buy a freewheel at my local bike shop but it doesn't look like it fits right. I don't know if it's a problem with the wheel or the freewheel or the lack of spacer (I'm hoping this is it), but when I screw in the freewheel, when it gets about 3/4 of the way down, it really starts to get sticky and doesn't spin freely anymore. I am hoping that the new freewheel + spacers that I bought will be able to resolve this issue.

My crimper also broke (TriCrimp) last week so I haven't been able to build more cables. New crimper should arrive today.

But everything else is here (power supplies, battery chargers, lipos, etc.) so I'm close...very close.

My goal is to be able to take the bike out for the test ride by this Sunday. I am out of town this weekend Sat/Sun (otherwise I would have this ready on Saturday).

Hi RVD,

Sounds like you've been very patient! Let us know how it goes!

Ambrose

yup, it's getting close.

i did take the bike out for a spin with regular wheels and fully loaded with 8 batteries (my full 12s4p setup) and pedaled down the street. it was heavy and the weight distribution was a bit off so we'll see how it goes later when it's built out.

How much do those batteries weigh?

ambrose

the batteries are about 900 grams each. Since at full capacity there are 8 of them, it totals around 7200 grams = 7.2kg = 16 pounds. not bad for 12s4p or roughly 44v 20ah but still enough weight to definitely feel it.

i actually plan to ride at 12s2p most of the time so it will be only 1/2 of that weight. the full weight is if i happen to be traveling a bit far and i also don't feel like pedaling too much.

When you go to put the free wheel on you might need a shim to stop it from locking up. .... After you install the free-wheel try turning it, if and when you see it won''t turn then you will need that shim. You'll see ....

Bike shop should have them. I took mine from my other bike when I took the free-wheel off.

Keep you eyes open and you'll see.

ronnie, i know EXACTLY what you are talking about. i got impatient and bought my own freewheel from my LBS and ran into that exact problem. freewheel got stuck and won't spin. i used my chain whip to loosen it but i can't get it off without a freewheel remover tool like this: http://www.amazon.com/Park-Tool-Freewheel-Remover-Falcon/dp/B000WYEHE4

i ordered the tool along with the freewheel and some spacers (shims) from e-bikekit last week and ups says that it should be here tomorrow. i plan to use the remover tool to remove my existing stuck freewheel and then install the e-bike one with spacers.

then i can finally take this bike out for it's maiden ride.

Yeah, glad you caught that about the shim. I tried my original 8 speed free-wheel just to see if it would fit and it didn't and I thought "What the Hell". So I took another free-wheel off of another wheel and it had a shim. Put it on and works perfect. Duh ... At least I figured that one out. lol But the 6 speed free-wheel sounds the best so that is the one I ended up running.

this is done! well, it's done in the ES sense...meaning that it runs now and it's usable but there are still a list of upgrades, tweaks, modifications, etc...that will be ongoing forever.

Anyway, the bike is up and running. It has a few minor issues here and there but the batteries are hooked up and it runs. I took it for it's maiden voyage last night at around 11pm and it was awesome! EV grin everywhere!!!

I got a precharge resistor and installed that last night as well as getting everything else hooked up, etc.

I'll take some better pictures during the day and get everything labelled, etc.

I am running it at 12s lipo.

TO DO:
1) install torque arm
2) swap out V brakes with disc brakes
3) build some battery housings for the lipos in the rear panniers
4) mount controller

ISSUES:
1) fix the speedometer on the CA (adjust the speed sensors)
2) figure out why speed 3 (on the 3 speed switch) doesn't work well...motor sputters

this is cool stuff. love it!

Congrats! You're now no longer building your bike, you're upgrading it!

You need to take some photos as you've got it right now to document your progress after some upgrades.

As for the sputtering, the 3 speed switch is programmable so you may have set the 3rd position very close to the LVC of the controller which would explain the sputtering.

I went for along ride today. Will post vid soon on my blog.

Congrats again!

Ambrose

ok what the heck. this is just to document anyway. here are a few dark pictures that i took last night at 1am in my garage after the bike was done and i went on my maiden ride.

I am actually an amateur / semi-pro photographer so it kind of pains me to just take pictures with my cell phone. i will take some real pictures with my real camera in good light after this weekend (unfortunately i am taking a 7:30 flight tomorrow morning to go out of town).

but here are some cell phone pictures anyway (all of the pics in this thread were from my cell phone btw).



charging setup for 12s. i did a balance charge and then a conservative charge to TCS 85% (which ends up at roughly 4.09 or so volts per cell). i did the charge at 1C (5000 mah) so it was slow...really slow. i think the balance took about 30 minutes (cells were already pretty much balanced), discharge took about an hour, charge took about 40 minutes.



the blue thing on the handlebars stop the bars from rotating too far left/right. i'm not sure why but it annoys me because the front handlebars sway so much when parked (because the bike is so back heavy).

panniers have the lipos. you can see the black wire coming out from the right to the left pannier to join the negative from the parallel on the right to the positive on the parallel in the left to change from 6s to 12s.

the controller is in a small pouch in the back of the top pannier for now. there is some ventilation there, etc. but you can see some wires popping out. i may mount it onto the metal section that connects the rear rack (it's those 2 silver metal things from the rack to the frame behind the seat post).

all brakes are still V brakes. i have disc brakes ordered.

although you can't see the other side, i have the wires going through the frame so it's pretty clean.



here is a better picture of the back pouch where the controller is located. it's pretty snug in there and won't fall out but i may move it anyway.

the jungle of wires is hidden inside the top pouch.



this is a diagram of the jungle of wires. as you can see, it's pretty much set up so that each pannier is running 6s4p. that blue wire in the middle (black in actuality) connects to the left and right pannier together to form 12s4p. i have a precharge resistors (picked up a 200 ohm 1w resistor from radio shack and it seems ok so far) and built a Y connector from 2 10 gauge wires by stripping out about 1/3 of the wire in each one to get them to crimp properly (i suck as soldering but i tried and failed).

the key connects to the ignition and it is what i put in last. i pull out the key and can leave everything else connected if i want to. the key is mainly to prevent accidental usage (although in reality, i will probably just disconnect the battery so maybe i'll get rid of this whole key thing (or keep it so that only i can actually ride the bike)).

thanks everyone for your help. ambrose, your blog also helped a lot whenever i ran into issues. so thanks to you personally as well everyone else who responded to my cries of help in various threads.

better pictures next week with more labels, etc.