Good Deal? Or Rip Off?

I've been thinking about buying a new eBike.

Old Bike:

I've had a little folding 36V 250W one for about 14 months and it's worked ok but it doesn't quite have enough juice to go the full 25km I need and there are a fair number of hills along the way. I have to take the charger with me both ways and charge it at work in order to have enough power to make it home and it's done over 500 charges now and I think the range is starting to decay. I live at the top of a long very steep hill (quite bad because it comes up from a valley) and I find I'm running out of juice before I make it to the top unless I pedal 90% of my trip and pedal hard much of that time.

I think having to do that trip, a full charge and almost full discharge twice a day, day in and day out has really taken its toll on the battery.

I like how fast the little folding 20" accelerates and it cost me about $900 originally (http://www.green-cruiser.com/bay-street-angel-2.html). I paid about $500 more over the year for 3 folding baskets, a new throttle when the original broke, pedals, new brakes and adjustments to them, two new tires, 5 new tubes (all for the rear) and rebuilding the rear when the spokes broke after one of the flats - along with various other repairs.

Bike Store Owner:

Speaking to a bike store owner yesterday the guy was telling me that first bike was a huge rip off, that I could get a great bike that goes 50km/h for $700 max by building it myself with a really nice 26" aluminum frame, a 500w motor (w/ controller built into it) with everything secure and a solid long range battery and all working great. He told me he'd assemble all the electrics for only $60 if I brought him the kit. Looking into it though I found the kit would cost almost $1300 CAD alone to get a good 500w motor, controller and LiPo/LifePO4 battery with the juice I need.

New Bike?


Now I found through a friend of these folding 26" bikes for about $900 http://www.dragonebikes.com/inspire.html (Inspire/Island Folder) from a private seller, a guy who says he bought it in the spring and never used it all summer (just used motorcycle or car instead). It has a 500W motor and a Lithium Ion 36V 10Ah pack - so same capacity as my current bike but with a motor twice as powerful and a slightly heavier frame - will I be running into the same problem in a year that the battery? Is it possible for me to buy a new larger LiFePO4 or other battery for it and replace the one it has at that point? Or is it just not worth trying to do so as it won't be compatible? I like it comes with disc brakes, my current bike with old style breaks gets eaten quickly (possibly because it has steel rims).

I couldn't pedal much with the 20" - you had to have such a fast cadence and the 6 gears weren't well matched to the motor - only on uphills or with the battery dead could you really comfortably pedal and you couldn't add much to the speed without going all out. I figure the 26" would be better for that - but without the acceleration.

I think the bike store owner gave me some bad info trying to get me to give him business assembling the bike and buying a $300+ aluminum frame off him. I don't know if I found the best kit to buy either. I also don't know if the EB-Inspire I was asking about (a Chinese eBike I think) is a good deal or idea. I'm really not sure and I'm trying to weigh everything and come up with the best decision.

What do you guys think? Any feedback is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Peter

Update: I'd also like to go faster - my current bike goes 25kph avg. My commute takes about 1 hour 5 minutes I don't know how fast the Inspire would go - but hopefully close or over the 32kph limit here - if it does then it would cut my commute to under the 1 hour mark which would be a big psychological point, if nothing else. Thanks!

On paper it looks pretty good, but if the weaker motor was hard on the battery, this is only going to be harder.

For the price since it includes the bike, and you don't have a bike that you already have to convert with all the things this has, I would say sure, but expect to replace the battery in a year, and use something like the Amped Bikes LiPo tube battery or a quality LiFeP04 battery from Cell_Man.

The biggest problem I see is lack of a good place to put a battery, but if the bike has decent components, if only for a good frame with lights & fenders (again assuming they are decent quality) I would say go for it.

Is this also using a bafang hub motor? If so, I'm guessing it's a rear motor?

Thanks a lot for your reply.

- My old mountain bike from my high school days was left out in the backyard for a season without my knowledge and rusted out so currently this would be my only one. It's odd but the seller says he will use the money from the sale to buy a new mountain bike to do off road stuff - hoping that means he didn't try to use this one for it and found he broke something . Will definitely take it for a test drive around the block at least - with my GPS measuring speed to make sure it gets at least 30 kph on motor alone and see how high I can push it pedaling.

- I kind of like the frog battery/controller configuration for the stealth it brings - though I have no idea how secure it is on the bike or if a theif could easily unscrew the components if so inclined (though of course I bet they'd rather just take the bike) - but I agree - first thing I'll be doing when I get it is installing a rear rack - hoping for enough clearance as it seems the controller stock is slightly lower down on the specific one he has (also has no fenders). I really hope it has the mount points and clearance for the rear rack or it'll be practically useless for me. (Edit: I've realized now how hard it will be to rack this - if I need to carry the charger and the rest of my equipment I'd really like to able to rack it - will see)

- That's great to hear that I can upgrade the batteries - I wasn't sure how compatible the different systems would be, especially this type. The one I had previously was a drop in model. I was looking at another similar bike model with LiFePO4s but it's $1850+ and easy to spot - if I can get a year out of this then upgrade then that would be ideal.

- I'm hoping with the 26" 21 speeds I can adjust it in such a way to find a level I can comfortably combine pedal and motor for greater range - with the 20" 6 gears I've found this to be pretty much impossible.

- It's definitely a rear motor - not sure the brand - will definitely take a look when I see it.

- Are there any key damage points or problems to look for in such bikes sold as used? Things that likely went wrong that you might not notice in a test ride that will come to bite you later?

Thanks,
Peter

Update: The photo above is from their site but it's bad - this model does in fact have a motor and disc brakes.

A new 500w hub kit can be had for like $175 (+shipping) and a 36v 10ah lipo battery was like $200 last I checked.

You could go crazy and get a 1000w kit for about $400 and an A123 pack for about $600 and you'd still have money left to put toward a bike.


Don't pay $900 for that Inspire, offer $650....assuming it's in working order.

Thanks - where is a good place to get those? I was looking at ebikes.ca and a couple of sketchy chinese websites so I don't know what's good. Is it Amped Bikes and Cell_Man as LI-ghtcycle suggested?

The law here is 500w/32 kph max, but I'm careful and wouldn't overdo it - I'd be happy to get more power if it can do the range and do it quietly and as stealthily as possible - a part of my daily commute route have "No motor assisted bicycle signs" as of last month so I'm trying to be as low key as I can be.

Thanks a lot,
Peter

I'm not sure about the 500w rating of that Inspire bike. The motor looks like a 250w sizewise. Also the 10aH battery would be struggling to provide the current for a normal 500w bike, plus I know from experience that the little compartment under the battery is not big enough to house anything other than a small 6 FET controller (250w).
Having said that, I commuted my 50km return journey on a bike very similar to that, and I also live on the top of a hill. To ensure I made it all the way home without recharging at work I had to pedal moderately hard and conserve battery where I could, but I was going twice as far as you.

Now I commute the same journey on a bike I built from a kit from BMSbattery.com. I have the Bafang BPM motor which has loads more power than the previous one so that I can go up steep hills without pedaling if I want. The kit cost about $300 including shipping, and then I added a 20aH Ping battery for about $660 and now I can do the journey nearly twice with hardly any pedaling effort.

Thank you for your reply. Here's a pic I found online, I asked the seller and he said it matches what the bike actually is:



Is it fair to say if I give it a ride and I can go 23-28kph on motor alone it's a 250W motor? That's my experience with my 250W bafang on the 20" - on level with no wind 28 was the most it could do alone.

Thanks, I didn't realize the controllers themselves came in different size depending on the power like that.

My route is just under 24km total each way including 2 monster hills (I'm estimating well over 100m+ rises each), a 30m+ hill and a couple of railyway bridges and the like. It's why I really enjoy having an eBike definitely. If I take my alternate route home it's even longer though with another hill added in - I don't do the alternate often but it would be nice not to have to worry. I charge both at work and home so my total commute is just under 50km but I do it with 2 cycles and I've been draining the battery to practically dead every time with my current 250w 10ah LiIon bike.

What's the wattage on the BPM Bafang you mentioned?

Thanks a lot,

Peter

this red folder has a 9C on the rear with disc brakes, and front suspension as well as the montague type folding. that is a nice rig, $650 with battery is a deal, imo. not sure how experienced you are yet, or where you live, but if you can determine the condition of the battery good by testing it, that would be a good buy. imo.

The red bike is a completely different frame as well and has disk brakes and different shocks.

The second bike would be a good deal for 650.00 but make sure you go in eyes wide open
and "buyer beware". Go look at it and take some good pictures including some good shots of
the motor, controller and battery and post them up here. We really need to know what your
looking at to give you any kind of sound advise.

Will definitely try to take a good look at everything - I'll bring my voltmeter along and see if I can get a reading on the batt and as much info as possible on the rest of it. The guy was asking 900, I'm sure I can get 800 but I don't know how far down below that he'd go - but 700 might be reasonable - he's had it sitting around for a few months so here's hoping. I'm in Ontario.

Am I right that a 250W motor w/ 36V 10ah LiIon wouldn't be able to get me up past 28kph - so if I get 30+ on motor alone it is actually a 500W? I agree the manufacturer's pic is aweful.

Thank you very much,

Peter

Well, my rule of thumb is used batteries, including "only used a few times" value at about zero. Motors last near forever, and controllers quite a while if not overheated bad. So you can pay for those items and not be ripped.

All of us, just about, who have really solid and dependable commuter bikes have spent $1200. So if that's what you really want, you need to adjust to the idea of spending that.

Some better deals are out there, in particular the cellman motors. But they don't come with in country customer service like yu get with Grin. (ebikes ca). A good lifepo4 battery is worth it, like a 36 or 48v 15 ah pingbattery. Lotsa threads complaining about bargain ebay lifepo4.

But I'd say if the bike goes 35kph, you have a decent bike, and need only to budget for a new battery of larger size later on. You'd expect a 500w bike to go 35 kph or thereabouts on 36v. Tell the guy it's neary winter, and you'll pay less than he wants or screw it. You got all winter to shop. I see it like this. Motor worth $250 used. Bike worth $150 max. That's still only $400. Standard for anything used at flea markets and garage sales is only fools pay more than half current retail price, regardless of condition. So offer him that, around $500. Bear in mind, you are going to spend another $500 on a new battery.

If the red bike is an inspire, its highly modified. I wouldn't give $900 new for an inspire. They are a 500W max motor (36v, 12-14amp controllers limiting power to 500W), where most motors we recomend are 500w nominal (36v 20A controllers minimum, some get pushed to insain levels)

The red bike might be worth $600 used as an asking priice, as it has a good motor and disk brakes. but you said the seller said his bike looks like it, but isn't it.

But the inspire's specs are less than impressive. Its a folder, and states it's only capable of suporting 90kg. Thats not much, and repeated pounding over rough roads may tear that bike apart.

The best thing for you at this point, in order to meet your needs is to rethink the bike. Start with an open triangle framed mountian bike, a direct drive 500watt hub motor (Silent, stealthy) and 48V,15 to 20AH of battery. Faster top speed is fine, you don't have to go fast in no-motor areas. That will get you what you want without compromises or settling for questionable used equipment.

Thank you very much for the replies. Very true on all points. Even my old bike had a 100kg load cap with a 20kg supporting rear rack as standard. I will take a look and offer 600 or 650 as you have said and see what he says.

The other bike I was looking at is: http://www.ebikesdirect.ca/portfolio-view/eagle-2/

So I am willing to pay a lot more (that is $1850) but they can't confirm the speed on it. When I took a ride it was fast to start but maxed out at 25kph and the motor would cut down on my speed to keep me at that speed and not allow me to go faster - they said it was set for Europe standards and had a fix but haven't tested it yet. Then I found this deal and thought it was pretty good.

Didn't realize the difference between 500W nominal or max but makes sense - can I tell what based on what controller is on it? Not sure if I can even open it up to see the controller. Will take a look and offer if its good and see what he says.

Thanks a lot all,

Peter

To be honest, that new bike is less impressive. It looks good, but thats were it ends. The battery is the same size as your 20" bike, but the bike is bigger and heavier, so the range will be less.
And they mention an RST fork as an available upgrade. RST makes forks for walmart bikes priced under $100 for the whole bike. Its about as far from quality as you can be, which means the standard fork is even worse, if thats possable. That means the rest of the parts are likely as low quality. I would avoid that bike. I would avoid that bike even if it was free. Its scarey that they are asking that much for that bike. Thats A2B pricerange without any quality.


Of the 3 bikes you have listed, the original bike, the one you have now is the most impressive. It has a Bafang motor, which is a known name brand with replacable internal parts if there is ever a problem. The battery is half the size you need, but that can be fixed with a new battery. a higher capacity controller could give you more power on hills. The sprocket should be replacable on the pedles, and a bike shop should be able to help you get a sprocket more appropriate for the speeds you peddle.

If you want a new, Pre-built Ebike, and you're wanting something of quality, look at
http://www.ultramotor.com/en_us
They are the entry level for real pre-built ebikes. anything less is essentualy a walmart toy.

Took a look at it - it is an MXUS motor. Went 21km/h average on straightaway. Very slow to accelerate. Very sluggish - gearing was way off, lots of noise and resistance - looked quite dirty, splashmarks, dust, battery box was scrapped quite a bit by the seat. The way the frog battery goes on, the controller is exposed under even when the battery is fully connected. It was hard for him to plug in the power hookup for the battery. Didn't feel very comfortable and actually felt kind of cheap. Not sure if it would even be rear-rackable. Motor was quite heavy. He said it was fully charged - I was quite disappointed with the performance overall. I didn't make an offer but told him I'd let him know after. I'm thinking now - definitely no. Not even for $600.

If the red bike is an inspire, its highly modified.

Click to expand...

Why would you think that? It looks identical to the Inspire on the dragonebikes site, except on the red one we can see a motor and the disk brakes. :|

Thanks for your last reply, I didn't get a chance to read it as I was in a rush after checking out the bike and had to head to my next appointment so I just quickly put up my report.

It's too bad, but I agree - after seeing it, it was a lousy very cheap bike. I was amazed it only went 21kph with me on it and could feel the lack of quality throughout.

I was actually looking at a Ultra Motors Velociti 26 (http://a2b.ultramotor.com/en_us/hybrid-24 but last year's 26" model) for $1650 (only 400W - seller also tried to get me to buy a Stromer for $3000) at a local seller - I would love to go faster though. I was looking at a Pedgo Interceptor (would ask it to be deregulated of course) and I like the speed but the price is a bit much - Prodego Phantom-X but it's DD.

The more stealth the better, though I like the option to pedal the bike with freewheel if I run out of juice - more efficient than regen imho - though if DD is best I'd go for one with regen and tons of extra capacity.

I'm a bit out of my depth in terms of engineering - I'm a programmer - waterproofing the controller and fixing my fenders is about as far as I know how to go unfortunately.

Can I actually up the speed as well as torque by upgrading my controller without changing my motor? (Update: Using the simulator @ ebikes.ca it looks like not ) Same with uping the batt capacity or voltage on the 250W Bafang?

The only other issue I have with my first ebike is it eats through brakes, especially when wet (with the ups and downs there are places I have to use them) - that's why I was thinking of upgrading to disc ones - besides that the bike has served me well overall and the fold is quite useful.

Thanks,
Peter

If you go through brakes a lot then maybe DD (regen) is the way to go. :wink:

Perhaps - I don't use them a whole lot but they are regular squeaky vbrakes that seem to wear quite fast. I coast as much as I can, but the hills at the start of each trip require brakes as they involve steep drops w/ 90* turns w/ much traffic/barriers/lights.

Open to anything i guess - upgrading my current or getting new (I just finished re-attaching the fender w/twist ties and replacing cell mount). I defer to the expertise of you guys though - I keep reading and trying but I'm such a noob

Thanks

Elevation profile for my trip home:



Are those the sorts of elevations most people on here are going 25mph up? The whole thing is about a 23 story climb over the course of it with some ups and downs.

A local shop has a 48V 15Ah battery and 500W kit just in. I have two frames in the backyard but both have rust spots - one is definitely steel (an old 26" Jeep Renegade) the other is a generic 24" Supercycle. The same shop has an Interceptor that the owner states would do 45kph for 45km on throttle alone. Doubting it could do my commute though both ways - though at least on the way down in the mornings I'm heading down those hill you see on the elevation.

Any advice or comments are welcome, thanks,
Peter

Considering electrifying my old bike - it was cheap I know, only cost around $100 almost 10 years ago from Sears - it's only slightly rusted. Would put on a 48V 20Ah LiFeP04 pack for longevity. Need to find a rear rack that would fit it. Not sure where or what controller to get - also not sure, do I really need to worry with a custom build about the 500W limit? I'm in Ontario...

Similar bike seemed to be doing ok at 36V 500W here:
[youtube]Okpu9ZpobuQ[/youtube][/quote]

I believe it's a steel frame - I'm hoping to do around 45kph to match the speed of an Interceptor but with a custom build.

What do you guys think, is it a bad idea?

Thanks,
Peter

P.S. It's funny - google search for "endless sphere rip off" comes right here - convenient for me to refind .

I have a jeep bike like that, They really aren't safe for speeds over 30KPH. For 45kph, you need dual disk brakes and frames/componants built to take real abuse.

But for a 30kph bike, its fine.

A rear rack is going to be a chalange. a normal seatpost rack will collaps under the weight of a battery that heavy within a few hundred miles. and with a Y frame bike, the problem of unsupported weight is magnified. The best place to carry a battery on that bike is on top of the top tube, like a motorcycle gas tank.

I also think your old bike has a lot going for it:
http://www.green-cruiser.com/bay-street-angel-2.html

A geared Bafang hub in a 20" wheel is going to be better on your hilly route than a similar hub motor in a 26" wheel. You get 30% more torque (26/20=1.3).
Also a Direct Drive hub (such as the MXUS on the other bike you saw) while it will have a higher advertized wattage figure, this means little in practice. As you noticed it was slow to accelerate. This is because the motor is very inefficient at low speeds and high power (you may be putting 500W electrical power in, but only get 100-200W mechanical power out). It is going to require much more power/current to go up hills, so then you need a more powerful battery and a more powerful controller.

How about taking your ebike to Steveo or someone else nearby in Ontario on this list? Steveo advertizes that he does ebike repairs. He could diagnose what needs to be done to fix your problem with poor range, and not getting all the way to work.

My guess is that you probably only need a new battery to go all the way to work. If you will be using the bike daily it may make sense in buying a slightly more expensive LiFePO4 battery, which can give you 2000+ cycles, than a regular Lithium (500-700 cycles at best). Pingbattery and cell_man are reliable sources of such batteries. Or steveo might be able to make one if he still has cells.

Steveo could also open the controller and see if it could be hopped up a bit (say to 48V and/or a few more amps by just adjusting the shunt current limit). Then you have a true 500W bike with the quality Bafang hub for little extra money.

Drunkskunk said:

Of the 3 bikes you have listed, the original bike, the one you have now is the most impressive. It has a Bafang motor, which is a known name brand with replacable internal parts if there is ever a problem. The battery is half the size you need, but that can be fixed with a new battery. a higher capacity controller could give you more power on hills. The sprocket should be replacable on the pedles, and a bike shop should be able to help you get a sprocket more appropriate for the speeds you peddle.

If you want a new, Pre-built Ebike, and you're wanting something of quality, look at
http://www.ultramotor.com/en_us
They are the entry level for real pre-built ebikes. anything less is essentualy a walmart toy.

Click to expand...

Drunkskunk said:

I have a jeep bike like that, They really aren't safe for speeds over 30KPH. For 45kph, you need dual disk brakes and frames/componants built to take real abuse.

But for a 30kph bike, its fine.

A rear rack is going to be a chalange. a normal seatpost rack will collaps under the weight of a battery that heavy within a few hundred miles. and with a Y frame bike, the problem of unsupported weight is magnified. The best place to carry a battery on that bike is on top of the top tube, like a motorcycle gas tank.

Click to expand...

Thanks for that feedback - that's true, it wasn't a very quality bike to start with and now after all this time and with the rust and the rest (it actually needs a new brake cable for the back as it is - that's why I stopped riding it 4 or 5 years ago. Agree, I'd not touch a seatpost rack ever - almost no safe load capacity.

I'd like to have a bike that can reliably do 45kph after going 25 this past year - my commute is over an hour (1 hour 3 minutes down and 1 hour 20 minutes back with a fair bit of pedalling now that the battery is aging and it's between 6 and -1*C avg lately on my rides).

jag said:

I also think your old bike has a lot going for it:
http://www.green-cruiser.com/bay-street-angel-2.html

A geared Bafang hub in a 20" wheel is going to be better on your hilly route than a similar hub motor in a 26" wheel. You get 30% more torque (26/20=1.3).
Also a Direct Drive hub (such as the MXUS on the other bike you saw) while it will have a higher advertized wattage figure, this means little in practice. As you noticed it was slow to accelerate. This is because the motor is very inefficient at low speeds and high power (you may be putting 500W electrical power in, but only get 100-200W mechanical power out). It is going to require much more power/current to go up hills, so then you need a more powerful battery and a more powerful controller.

How about taking your ebike to Steveo or someone else nearby in Ontario on this list? Steveo advertizes that he does ebike repairs. He could diagnose what needs to be done to fix your problem with poor range, and not getting all the way to work.

My guess is that you probably only need a new battery to go all the way to work. If you will be using the bike daily it may make sense in buying a slightly more expensive LiFePO4 battery, which can give you 2000+ cycles, than a regular Lithium (500-700 cycles at best). Pingbattery and cell_man are reliable sources of such batteries. Or steveo might be able to make one if he still has cells.

Steveo could also open the controller and see if it could be hopped up a bit (say to 48V and/or a few more amps by just adjusting the shunt current limit). Then you have a true 500W bike with the quality Bafang hub for little extra money.

Drunkskunk said:

Of the 3 bikes you have listed, the original bike, the one you have now is the most impressive. It has a Bafang motor, which is a known name brand with replacable internal parts if there is ever a problem. The battery is half the size you need, but that can be fixed with a new battery. a higher capacity controller could give you more power on hills. The sprocket should be replacable on the pedles, and a bike shop should be able to help you get a sprocket more appropriate for the speeds you peddle.

If you want a new, Pre-built Ebike, and you're wanting something of quality, look at
http://www.ultramotor.com/en_us
They are the entry level for real pre-built ebikes. anything less is essentualy a walmart toy.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

The motor on the bike is a Bafang 250W, the controller is 13A/15A (with a box below the battery that it just barely fits in) and the battery is 36V 10Ah PhyLion that's starting to lose power. It's also not geared well for more than around 20kph (beyond that you have to pedal extremely fast to add any speed at all). The wheels are slightly off true and it eats through brakes so quickly in the rain (possibly bcs of steel rims?) and it isn't disc brake compatible as far as I know. It has about 8000km on it and around 350 charges on the battery.

I'm game to try upgrading it and get it working well if that's a viable option. I'd like being able to get to work with a cruising speed of 40kph or so and an average around 35 - Inc stops/starts, etc.., I'm averaging about 21kph now (used to do around 23kph when the bike was new and it was warmer) over the 23.5km route, here's the elevation profile (reposting it as the original link has died):


(When I check elevation maps though, it says my home is actually at 165m so it's probably a little steeper than shown there at the end)

And thanks for the link to ultra motors, looked into the A2B a lot, even almost bought a $1900 nearly new one - but I'd really like to go faster.

I'm just a noob - I really appreciate all your feedback guys - thank you so much,

Peter

P.S. Here's a larger pic of my current bike:

I pm'd Steveo and posted a reply here but nothing - oh well, thanks anyway all who did post and try to help me,

Peter