100 mile ebike @ 30mph constant on flats without headwind?

DDK,

Don't worry I'm not doing that with my cells. My only concern is the EVA getting soft in the heat and stuff like sand getting stuck to it. I'll probably need the lexan sheet.

The sun is brutal, but the temps aren't. Cool breeze at 1000M where I live, so 70's is it pretty much all the time...maybe dipping into the 60's at night. Down at the beach, the Pacific is still cool enough here that it's pleasant, unless it's a very calm day, but it's easy enough just to hit the water if too hot.

I didn't tell you half the plan for that bring the family to the beach vehicle. Actually the main platform would be a trailer, with dual high power hubbies on the pulling bike and assist on the trailer wheels for hills. Then get to the beach town and unhook and put a wheel at the front of the trailer with handlebars to make it a trike, giving us a slow platform vehicle to bring to the store and load the ice chests and then drive it right onto the beach to set up. The high powered ebike is then autonomous for 2 vehicles at the beach. Gotta have that solar cell sun shade to cover the platform trike to get out of the sun and out of the sand.

John

Cool thing about you John, is no goal is too high for you to aim for. Since you actually try, you get it done a lot of the time. 8) Nearly everybody else would just have a car in the driveway. I have 3 not counting the now broken down truck.

dogman said:

Cool thing about you John, is no goal is too high for you to aim for. Since you actually try, you get it done a lot of the time. 8) Nearly everybody else would just have a car in the driveway. I have 3 not counting the now broken down truck.

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unlike me, where no goal is too low to aim for...
one piece of info I've not seen here, but I'm a vapid fan of Linear Technology devices, because they make many highly useful systems-on-a-chip
Now... if I were to build my own battery, and who doesn't enjoy building their own batteries (except me :lol
I would be tempted to embed strings of battery cells within the solar panel using these things with every small-ish series. LT even makes a MPPT for a single lithium cell driven from one or two solar cells.
Very cool stuff and if I were slightly more ambitious (too old to be 'more ambitious') i would likely do just that as in embedding the battery cells in the panel structure fed by lots of little MPPTs
should be stupidly efficient and avoids the problems of a high-current buss attached to the cells (and introduces a different can of worms with battery cell balancing LOL)

Thanks Dogman,

If I could just pull off half the things I talk about, I'll be doing well. I'm an idea machine with about 10 projects in various stages of completion. Follow through is accelerating though with the Sheriff about to get relaunched with a monster controller, upgraded phase wiring, ventilation, and even beautification of the battery compartment's outer shell along with some air scoops. Testing of the 2 speed high efficiency hubbie is going great, and we're modding one of those motors for a mid-drive that knocks a couple of pounds off the motor. Batt Tubes get sealed up tomorrow night, which is 14p20s Konion VT cells capacity tested and matched for over 18ah. Those will get used at first looking like rocket tubes on the back of a bike, and later that 1.3kwh battery pair will become the down tube and top tube of a bike. 2 jet drive rigs for a electric surfboards is in transit with a standup paddleboard and a medium longboard ready to accept it. Then it's just a matter of water proofing a couple of lipo packs and embedding them in the boards. Big ole me will finally get to surf...yay! The hull panels are ready to assemble for the 5 meter hybrid electric/wind catamaran. I've gotta find a charge controller for a portable ebike charging station, which absolutely needs getting done by the end of April. Then there's assorted other ebikes to do, so yeah I've got elephants to eat, but I'm getting it done a bite at a time now instead of floundering like I've done much of the time in the past and trying to call it multi-tasking.

John in CR said:

DDK,

Don't worry I'm not doing that with my cells. My only concern is the EVA getting soft in the heat and stuff like sand getting stuck to it. I'll probably need the lexan sheet.

Click to expand...

if I had to content with large bugs (LOL been there) I too would be more concerned, I'm unsure about sandblasting effects but I'm willing to find out

John in CR said:

The sun is brutal, but the temps aren't. Cool breeze at 1000M where I live, so 70's is it pretty much all the time...maybe dipping into the 60's at night. Down at the beach, the Pacific is still cool enough here that it's pleasant, unless it's a very calm day, but it's easy enough just to hit the water if too hot.

Click to expand...

I'm located over 4000 miles north and west of you, also along the coast where the temps hover about 50F all year long. Needless to say I wear two coats, gloves and a sweatshirt when riding because even at 10 mph the wind chill is ah, chilly
. I think its funny I 'could' ride a bike from here to there (your assumed location) and it would only take a few months :lol:

John in CR said:

I didn't tell you half the plan for that bring the family to the beach vehicle. Actually the main platform would be a trailer, with dual high power hubbies on the pulling bike and assist on the trailer wheels for hills. Then get to the beach town and unhook and put a wheel at the front of the trailer with handlebars to make it a trike, giving us a slow platform vehicle to bring to the store and load the ice chests and then drive it right onto the beach to set up. The high powered ebike is then autonomous for 2 vehicles at the beach. Gotta have that solar cell sun shade to cover the platform trike to get out of the sun and out of the sand.

John

Click to expand...

This makes perfect sense to me. I've used/use powered trailers for carrying large loads/small children etc and I always felt it would be a relatively simple matter to attach a front fork to one
My current trailer incorporates two electric motorcycle hubs @48V, but it wants to go fast ... I wanna go slow so I was thinking after my trike is functional I might consider building a trailer utilizing two small geared hub motors, as what I'm using in both my trike's front forks
--or not because my E-Moto trike is great for shopping.
ATM I will likely keep it just for that purpose, using my project trike for coastal flights of fancy

mlvy, ddk, whoever: Any updates to this thread?

I'l throw my hat in the ring: mlvy, You can do a 100 mile ebike - I'm almost there myself, I can do roughly 60 miles on 18S3P, recumbent SWB. No fairing. One pannier with about 10lbs, batteries on the rear rack.

Yes, you gotta slow down. You can maintain 20-22mph with 200-300 watts on a rear DD 9C 2810, 26" wheel. I can do that at 13Wh/mile with a ton of pedaling on very hilly route. If I want to ride luxury, it'll be 18-20Wh/mile.

Here's some links to the father/son "100 Watt challenge":
http://planetgreen.discovery.com/travel-outdoors/father-son-team-traveling-nyc-portland-1000-mpg-vehicle-pop-sci.html
http://www.popsci.com/category/tags/eco-tour

It's difficult to read - the ultimate top-posting nightmare. But it's pretty good. I wish for more details on the car itself, but I'm sure any of us could recreate this quadricycle without too much difficulty, and maybe even mount a couple 250W panels on the roof...

Now PopSci has always frustrated me: lots of great ideas, no products for the common man. But I gotta give them props for sponsoring Pierce (dad) and Nash (son) Hoover on their cross-country trip. These guys stared an incredible journey in the face and took it on. Definitely manly. Their cart looks to be more practical than an upright, bike or trike: check out that huge box on the back where you could put all kinds of stuff.

Seems to me you could pop two panels on the top of this cart, add a bunch of LiPo and rock on down the road. it is four wheels, with all the attendant problems, but still, it's a bike...

LOL if PopSci would sponsor me perhaps I'd get My Trike(TM) done sooner (like, having a garage to work in during the, sometimes, continuous rains around my parts)
But I slowly make headway, with some setbacks due to my idiotic designs.
I've yet to purchase my 'battery charger of choice' and might resort to some other method of harvesting power from my, yet-to-be-built solar panels.

BTW I am but a few days of work away from being able to move to the next step of My Trike's(TM) puzzle... the solar panels.
I'm mainly documenting my backwards and forwards momentum in This Thread
- I thought we'd successfully derailed this thread enuff. :lol:

about the quad:
well... it's a quad and is, in my estimation, @ 46inches wide, too wide for (my local) roads.
My Trike(TM) is also too wide for the road when the road's shoulder narrows to almost nothing. It's 32" wide.
But at that point even bicycles would be unsafe with any appreciable car traffic.
I noted their quad was outfitted with a 750w electrical system. I currently carry more batteries than they did. I use a 1000W system that uses two motors, one of which hardly sees use (esp. when I can hardly get it to work right :lol
The blog was a little too preachy for my tastes.
I look at My Trike as purely being an economical way to get from point A to B that also happens to be fun to use, providing me with some exercise too boot.

Across the USA I've also marveled at the huge number of ghost towns or barely occupied towns and villages found pretty much in every state west of the Mississippi. And I've pretty much traveled every road west of the Ol' Miss via MH, car or bike.
I found it comforting that one rarely encounters another vehicle for hours on end on much of the two-lane highways (with exceptions)
This lack of use was very helpful (to other vehicles) when I traveled across the USA in the Motor Home (MH) as I pretty consistently drove just below 50 MPH where I got my most conservative fuel use...15-18 MPG on the flat, which isn't bad considering I'm traveling in my house, carrying all my stuff.
When on a bike I rarely had to deal with those annoying motor vehicle encounters on those same roads
- did I mention I've biked across the "Craters of the Moon" LOL
Where I live now my road of choice (because it's the Only Choice) is HWY 101, which has considerable traffic.

Maybe John's further ahead with his project.

I usually read an entire thread thoroughly before posting but I saw the OP topic and was curious about how near I could guess the requirements according to EbikeCA's simulator for 100 miles @30mph w/ a 40mph top speed. I was surprisingly close, but after a bit of fiddling (using a gross weight of 200Kg ) I ended up with: full recumbent, 24" wheel, Clyte HS3540, 72v 30AH battery.

so even if you went w/ Lifepo4 chemistry, two 36v 30AH packs in series gives maybe 70 lbs of battery and a 5 or so hour charge time w/ two 6 amp chargers...

if you change "Full Recumbent" to "Mountain Bike" in the EbikeCA sim the range is pretty much cut in half, but on a full recumbent, with a fairing and the batteries in some low mounted aerodynamic hard cases rather than some floppy nylon panniers? Doesn't sound too unreasonable actually.

Now I have to read through the whole post and figure out what I missed. budget of $500? climbing a mountain while towing a baby grand piano? idk

DC

ddk said:

Maybe John's further ahead with his project.

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LOL ! Which one? I should have a new mid-drive on the road by Saturday. Other than that I've been having too much fun playing with my giant hubbie ebike to get much else done.

16S Lipo in a 26"magic Pie external controller will get you 35 mph max, 120% setting in controller. The Pie would be the better climber out of most dd hubs for the same power.

It is a very efficient motor at 30 mph, I use 1.6 continental sport contact tyres pumped to 90 psi and you would be amazed the difference they make and how far you can freewheel. I noticed the difference straight away when Peddling so they are bound to reduce wh/mi

The mac 8T is also very efficient and will climb hills faster for the same power as a dd motor and free wheels, I love that motor! @20 mph I can get 25 miles out of 8.5ah no peddling and a few hills on my bike. But I can't stress how big a difference the continental tyres make + they are puncture resistant and since using them I have not got a flat!

I must do a wh/mi test at 30 when I get the mac back running! But at 35-40 mph I noticed it at about 49 wh/mi over 11 miles, fairly level ground few short hills.

But if you want efficient dd hub then I would go with the pie as the extra torque is nice to have!

If I remember correctly a few weeks ago I went on a 8.5 mile ride at 30 mph with the pie and used 4.5 ah, no peddling at all. That seems pretty accurate. I should write these things down, mostly level ground and breezy. So going by that 10ah should get you about 18 miles with 10ah@ 30mph. So 60 ah at 16S LiPo should give you 100 miles range, You will need more of course if going up hills etc, that's a lot of battery and that's with my weight 93 kgs and bike and tyres pumped to 90 psi.

Interesting to note is the mac @20 mph could do it on only 34 ah on 16S LiPo, so say 40 ah to be safe or 50 ah to keep some left in the battery. at 25 mph you could probably still get away with 50 ah!

I don't know if my calculations are accurate ? but it gives you a good Idea. There is no way I would do it on a mountain bike. Recumbent all the way and would be even more efficient.

The Zippy Compact LiPo seems the best way to go ?

John in CR said:

ddk said:

Maybe John's further ahead with his project.

Click to expand...

LOL ! Which one? I should have a new mid-drive on the road by Saturday. Other than that I've been having too much fun playing with my giant hubbie ebike to get much else done.

Click to expand...

LOL
questions I ask myself when the weather's good
"Should I build the "XXX" or should I ride My Trike(TM)?"
Answer is always "ride My Trike(TM)"

I've been carrying 540W of battery, which makes for very long rides!

You should forget about building an e bike and just build a scooter.

A company that i considered investing in, XTremeGreen, offers such a scooter... They call it an electric motorcycle but it's a scooter.
http://www.xgpinc.com/pdf/xrider.pdf

Their scooter will go 100 miles @ 35 mph with a top speed of 65 mph.

4.5 kW hub motor
72V, 60 Ah Lithium Ion battery..... I don't know what type. Probably LiFePo4..... So that's 4.3 kWh.
330 lbs capacity.
If i rmember it was $8k FOB Vegas

You can probably do with less motor, but if you're carrying that much battery, why not?
And FYI, i have a A2B Metro that weighs 94 lbs and has a 40 mile range at 20 mph, 500w dd motor and 0.82 kWh batteries.... Pedaling without power is no fun!

All your problems can be solved with this baby here!

I know its not electric, but its 1000 times simple'r to go this route and cheaper by far.

Yamaha WR250X or R
297 Wet
72mpg fuel FI
Highway Speed All Day Long

FIrst off, no gas/diesel powered bikes. It defeats the point. I also don't want a scooter as one cannot go on bike lane or bike trails if I need to. Remember the goals is to do cross country biking not cross-country scootering or motorcycling. LOL.

joepah said:

You should forget about building an e bike and just build a scooter.

Click to expand...

VoKuS said:

All your problems can be solved with this baby here!
I know its not electric, but its 1000 times simple'r to go this route and cheaper by far.

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Gaaaaa! Get the noobs off me...get the nooooobbbbsss off meeee! :lol: :lol: :lol:

o00scorpion00o said:

It is a very efficient motor at 30 mph, I use 1.6 continental sport contact tyres pumped to 90 psi and you would be amazed the difference they make and how far you can freewheel. I noticed the difference straight away when Peddling so they are bound to reduce wh/mi

The mac 8T is also very efficient and will climb hills faster for the same power as a dd motor and free wheels, I love that motor! @20 mph I can get 25 miles out of 8.5ah no peddling and a few hills on my bike. But I can't stress how big a difference the continental tyres make + they are puncture resistant and since using them I have not got a flat!

Click to expand...

I'm not sure tire pressure/size make all that much of a difference. As a pedaler, you really feel an extra 30watts of resistance, but the motor will barely notice it all, when you factor in wind, terrain, stops. I can't say for sure, but when I ride most of the time I run like 25psi in my 1.8" Michelins to provide reasonable ride quality over our bumpy roads.

Of course, if you can ride 90psi and be comfortable, then by all means.

veloman said:

o00scorpion00o said:

It is a very efficient motor at 30 mph, I use 1.6 continental sport contact tyres pumped to 90 psi and you would be amazed the difference they make and how far you can freewheel. I noticed the difference straight away when Peddling so they are bound to reduce wh/mi

The mac 8T is also very efficient and will climb hills faster for the same power as a dd motor and free wheels, I love that motor! @20 mph I can get 25 miles out of 8.5ah no peddling and a few hills on my bike. But I can't stress how big a difference the continental tyres make + they are puncture resistant and since using them I have not got a flat!

Click to expand...

I'm not sure tire pressure/size make all that much of a difference. As a pedaler, you really feel an extra 30watts of resistance, but the motor will barely notice it all, when you factor in wind, terrain, stops. I can't say for sure, but when I ride most of the time I run like 25psi in my 1.8" Michelins to provide reasonable ride quality over our bumpy roads.

Of course, if you can ride 90psi and be comfortable, then by all means.

Click to expand...

I never said it was comfortable, you should see our roads, they don't get much worse!

But yes there is a major difference peddling going from 25 psi mountain bike tyres to 90 psi continental sport contacts, so It can only make a difference to the over all efficiency on electric. Easier to pedal and also noticeably faster too.

mvly -

Your key question was:

After doing a lot research, i think only a 2 wheels recumbent with wind guard and probably 3KWh of battery paired with 700W to 1KW charger can do the above.

I think you are pretty close with your armchair estimation. My 2 wheel SWB recumbent without fairing and 1.2Kwh battery can do 60 miles on the flats. My 600W charger can recharge the pack very quickly - 3 hours or less.

The man behind E-S has already gone across canada on his home-built cargo bike. He didn't do it with solar, he stopped along the way and got a plug-in on occasion. But he was successful - incredibly successful - and demonstrated for all to see what is possible with an ebike and a different world view.

Kingfish has already built a 100-mile-capable bike and documented his real-world trip with it. I've documented my SWB recumbent that can do 60 miles at 20mph with no fairing. (my daily commute is 30 miles each way, somewhat hilly) o00scorpion00o, ddk, john in cr, dogman, veloman and others have provided good input to help you get closer to your goal.

I can maintain 20mph at about 240 watts input to the motor, so 20mph is do-able on a "solar trike" with a 250W panel up top: you could achieve near net-zero energy on flats with no wind.

30mph requires somewhere north of 750w power to sustain on a loaded, long-distance road bike on the flats with no bad headwinds. So you may not reach net-zero with full sun, but you'll surely get a range extension. You didn't say if you have a trike/quad choice on your trip, but one thing these designs might offer is SHADE, which will certainly help the human energy source run longer. 8)

Point is, 30mph isn't impossible, especially with a lot of LiPo, just probably not net-zero with solar. That doesn't mean you shouldn't try it: The solar panel would be a decent supplement for an onboard charger, especially if it got you that one extra mile to the plug!

You even inspired me to look a little further at the solar option and I came across this URL: http://solartrike.com/. I can't vouch for this guy, and I know nothing about him. He's a "plans seller", but he seems to be realistic about what he's doing, not making an wild claims.

I'm cheering you on and hope to see you achieve the goals you started this thread with. We don't want to leave you to the spammers and the trolls.

You were clear with your objectives and timeframe at the beginning of the thread. What's your thoughts, still, about your original parameters - do you feel your mission is do-able? Do you have any thoughts going forward about what you're read or what you are trying to do?

JKB

mvly said:

FIrst off, no gas/diesel powered bikes. It defeats the point. I also don't want a scooter as one cannot go on bike lane or bike trails if I need to. Remember the goals is to do cross country biking not cross-country scootering or motorcycling. LOL.

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For one thing, calling someone a troll who's just providing an opinion is just sad. You have my sympathy.

I don't know what country you live in, but a 30 mph e bike in a USA bike lane would be illegal, and most definitely piss off other bike riders. I ride a road bike and an e bike and wouldn't really like it.

You just need to reduce the range to ~30 miles then you can definitely build a mountain bike for the trails that is a reasonable weight. Was thinking about doing the same thing.

My original version of my xtracycle build had 5.5kwh of batteries, and could do around 125 miles on a charge at ~28-30 mph. Using that datapoint you can expect to need about 5kwh which is roughly 100lbs of battery. Which is why I downsized to about 2.5 kwh which now gets me about 62 miles range. You can easily charge 5kwh in 6 hours though. The biggest problem is dealing with the extra weight, and designing a bike that can handle it.

joepah said:

mvly said:

FIrst off, no gas/diesel powered bikes. It defeats the point. I also don't want a scooter as one cannot go on bike lane or bike trails if I need to. Remember the goals is to do cross country biking not cross-country scootering or motorcycling. LOL.

Click to expand...

For one thing, calling someone a troll who's just providing an opinion is just sad. You have my sympathy.

I don't know what country you live in, but a 30 mph e bike in a USA bike lane would be illegal, and most definitely piss off other bike riders. I ride a road bike and an e bike and wouldn't really like it.

You just need to reduce the range to ~30 miles then you can definitely build a mountain bike for the trails that is a reasonable weight. Was thinking about doing the same thing.

Click to expand...

joepah, no one called you a troll. You aren't listening to what the OP is saying, and what the OP says is correct.
Do you have a build thread or a thread about your A2B?

A Catrike Expedition w/48V 1000W GM motor, Windrapp fairing 12s 48 Ah Lipo battery (36 lbs.) in Axiom Panniers and everything else in Radical Side Pods with a bit of pedaling does 120 miles in a day with my crippled self no problem. You could also get a ICE Adventure FS trike and surround it with a Borealis velomobile shell and really get some range and speed off of that motor and battery config. Velomobiles are nice for speed and range but they are noisy inside. So I prefer an open recumbent trike with a fairing. YMMV

Kirk said:

A Catrike Expedition w/48V 1000W GM motor, Windrapp fairing 12s 48 Ah Lipo battery (36 lbs.) in Axiom Panniers and everything else in Radical Side Pods with a bit of pedaling does 120 miles in a day with my crippled self no problem. You could also get a ICE Adventure FS trike and surround it with a Borealis velomobile shell and really get some range and speed off of that motor and battery config. Velomobiles are nice for speed and range but they are noisy inside. So I prefer an open recumbent trike with a fairing. YMMV

Click to expand...

Captain Kirk! (sorry ) - Now THAT'S what I'm talkin about! Real reports from the field from real people who've got real accomplishments under their belt and can offer feedback based on their experience.

Now I'll go cry in my beer. That ICE Adventure FS is $3kUS. and so is the Borealis. I love velomobiles and want to use one someday, but I was afraid a velomobile might be noisy inside and that's kinda the opposite of what we go for with the bike thing - no noise is a Good Thing.

Kirk - do you have a thread on your bike in the forums? ( If not, PLEASE post with pics.) Do you know anyone who's got an ICE with a Borealis fairing?

Catrike Expedition:
http://www.catrike.com/catrike_expedition.html

ICE Trikes:
http://www.icetrikes.co/explore-our-trikes/adventure

Borealis Velo Shell:
http://velomobiles.ca/Borealis.html

Windrap Fairing:
http://www.windwrap.com/

JKB

66v 20AH @25 mph should allow you to get 100m. If not 20AH 25-30AH will put you in the club. Get a large front chain ring. This will help out alot. A smaller motor wheel will help with this also. I only say this because I had Tidal Force Frame with a 9C 9x7 Motor and I consistantly did long rides with plenty left in the tank. Im double your size so you have less pounds/weight so your motor will require less power to sustain your speed. My longest trip was 70 miles with 4-5 AH left in the pack. And the only reason that much was left cause on my return trip i did so well i was blowing AH just because i could. I think i used 7.5 on my way out 15-16AH total. 25 was about the average speed and i was pedaling along.

Good thing about my rig is i could get it to sip power and could hypermile but with careful riding i could get it to take the streets at 35-40mph and hang in traffic. At the loss of about 1.25AH A Mile. Georgia isnt flat. But if im hypermiling on a trial with a 1-3% grade im doing about 4-5 Miles. per AH.

Realistically when people say 50-60AH they are telling the truth. In my case I was hypermiling just at a higher speed. But you will be surprised what cruise control can do on a flat trail to save power. It will sip power. Thats how i get my numbers. Im not messing with the throttle. I set it and forget it. When you have an ebike either you are going to be the dumb ass that just balls to the wall fast pace with no consideration to the power you are wasting or you are going to be the one look at the CA trying to get you wh/mi down or trying to stay within a certain mph rand or trying not to exceed a certain amount of watts or amps. When you a self conscience rider you can get efficiency at high speed.

A Recumbent wouldnt hurt either. Ive seen the figure and heard the stories. Most of your waste is going to come from wind resistance

my ride today with little wind and less than 4% grades:
30 miles@20-25 MPH using 5.1AH from a 15AH 36V pack starting @42V ending @39.5V
On My Trike(TM) -a semi-recumbent tricycle with no fairing and a large-enough chainring to always pedal-assist.

add some wind and some greater-than-4% grades and 30 miles would likely have used most the pack.
BTW bridges in N.CA suck for biking