Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby amberwolf » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:12 pm

miro13car wrote:So how accurate it is after you enter correct wheel tire curcumstance

For a while I had both the CA and an old bike computer on CrazyBike2, same wheel size set in both, and readings were the same on each one for distance. The bike computer only read out in 0.5MPH increments and was very slow to display changes in speed, so I am not sure how comparable the speed display was--it always was close, but with the lag in display I couldn't always tell for sure. Can't recall the name of the BC right now, but there should be pics of it in my CB2 thread starting about September 2010.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby miro13car » Tue Apr 24, 2012 10:10 pm

I like to have seperate speed measuring device and Cateye is dead accurate after entering right circumvence.
It is not cheap computer /$35 minimum/ and shows speed in 0.1 km/h increments so not all BC are cheap crap.
It has to be measured with measuring tape on tire compressed under load of rider NOT just entered from the chart in manual.
So you say CA sampled speed much more often?
Couldn't you just measure distance? Did they shaw the same distance?
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby justin_le » Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:32 am

miro13car wrote:So you say CA sampled speed much more often?


In the CA you can set the display refresh rate for most items between 0.025 to 1.6 seconds. However, the speed is asynchronous from this setting and is updated instantaneously with each wheel revolution. On the V3 CA beta firmware, it's actually updated at each pole pulse at the moment, so with a hub that has 23 poles that means a very snappy feedback on the speed reading but it also means the numbers can move faster than you can read them, so I'll likely slow this down.

As with all bike computers, the distance and speed accuracy are just a function of how accurate you are able to know your wheel size, which you can tweak up and down to get the result you want. It's a rather moot question. -Justin
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby justin_le » Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:37 am

hjns wrote:Hi all,

I am trying to hook up my CA v3. I am runnng 30S 126V HOC.


For that, you should be OK connecting it up directly. Max voltage that the CA will display with the current resistor values is ~150V, so 126V off the charger will be alright. But for the production run we are considering changing the stock divider for 100V max, which gives better accuracy of the more normal ebike voltage range and encourages people running higher voltages to be safer in the installation and not send that directly to the handlebars.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby amberwolf » Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:56 am

miro13car wrote:So you say CA sampled speed much more often?
I have no idea if the speed was sampled any different, but the *display* was updated much less often on the bike computer.

Couldn't you just measure distance? Did they shaw the same distance?

I'll refer you to my post for that answer:
amberwolf wrote:readings were the same on each one for distance.

;)


BTW, I checked, and the bike computer is a Vetta Innovator C100:
Image
probably from the late 1980s or early 1990s. No idea if it's a great unit or crappy one; it came on the Nishiki when I got that at Savers for I think $20. It is so old that they don't have a manual on the website anymore for it, or any similar unit.
http://www.vetta.com/Instruction-Manual
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby hjns » Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:34 am

justin_le wrote:For that, you should be OK connecting it up directly. Max voltage that the CA will display with the current resistor values is ~150V, so 126V off the charger will be alright. But for the production run we are considering changing the stock divider for 100V max, which gives better accuracy of the more normal ebike voltage range and encourages people running higher voltages to be safer in the installation and not send that directly to the handlebars.
-Justin


Great, exactly what I need. Thanks for the quick response!
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby miro13car » Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:18 am

The question was how accurate was CA speed reading
I tried 2 $8 bike computers and no matter how accurate you enter
tire cucimvence still reading not even close to GPS.
So not so moot simple is not only matter what you enter but what alogartm
they use to calculate, right?

I understand for speed reading you still use magnetic pick up.
On newest CA?
Why do mention poles of motor?
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby oatnet » Wed Apr 25, 2012 11:33 am

miro13car wrote:I understand for speed reading you still use magnetic pick up.
On newest CA?
Why do mention poles of motor?


The CA can use either a magnetic pickup in the standalone or speedo version, or get the signal from the hall sensor in the the direct-plug version. The questions you are asking can be answered with a quick RTFM, this site lays out what the CA is and does:

http://ebikes.ca/drainbrain.shtml

Here is the actual manual:
http://ebikes.ca/drainbrain/CA_Large_V223_Web.pdf
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby Tench » Wed Apr 25, 2012 12:28 pm

All versions of the CA can be wired either for a speed signal from the motor or the external wheel speed sensor, 2 minute job to switch from one type to the other.
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Cycle Analyst V3 - Unofficial User Guide / User Manual

Postby teklektik » Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:06 pm

Unofficial User Guide

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby Tench » Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:46 pm

I have just wired mine in, i get the throttle slider going up and down but no motor? :shock: i have set the ramp down to 001 so i will go and change that. I only have the DP connector between CA and controller, do i need to use the original controller throttle input wire? I am seeing over 4v on the green wire in the DP connector with a closed throttle so i presume the controller has shut down because the start voltage is too high on the throttle wire, or am i wrong? :(
I have set the voltages for input and out put below the actual min throttle output and the actual voltage the controller needs to start, i didnt know i could read them from the CA so i can do that aswell.

Been and made some adjustments,,

My throttle min output voltage is 0.85v so i set the min input to 0.87v
max input displayed by the CA is 4.19 so i set this to 4.10v
Min out put is set to 1.40v as i know the controller does not start til just above this voltage (even tried stting this to 0.40v)
Max out put is set to 4.10v.

Ramp up set to 500, ramp down to 999.

When i look at the throttle display screen, if i just open the throttle a little the bottom left read out starts to rise untill it max's out even with the input voltage only showing 0.9v, is this correct?

I still dont have any drive, i have the tried speed and current settings aswell as pass through, no drive? what am i doing wrong?

I should stick to hammers and welding!! :D

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby lizardboy » Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:26 pm

Got mine and starting the wire up.. Where do the wheel sensor leads go? The rpm inputs I guess? And the the throttle just wires to the cycle analyst and not to the controller?

I had an idea which I've yet to check out but could the programmer that Lyen supplied with my controller be used, with a wiring adaptor to do the firmware updates? Gonna beep out the wiring and report back.

Darrin
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby teklektik » Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:27 pm

Tench wrote:I only have the DP connector between CA and controller, do i need to use the original controller throttle input wire?

Yep. The problem is that pin 6 on the DP connector is Throttle Out on the CA side but Throttle Override on the controller side, that is, the controller is only using the voltage in a 'limiting' capacity...

The DP connector (pin 6 - green wire) is connected to the CA PCB ThO pin (Throttle Out). This is tied inside your controller with a resistor and diode to cause the external DP throttle connection to operate as a current sink to pull down (limit) the real throttle input to the controller - current flows out of the controller during limiting and any apparent voltage on the green DP lead cannot flow in to drive the controller. See section 7.1 of the v2.23 CA Manual. You need to get around this current sink limitation - at the moment, you have no controller throttle input so motor no go...

CA-DP_pinout.gif
Pin 6 is really 'Throttle Out' on the CA but 'Throttle Override' on the controller
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Assuming that your real throttle leads are tied to the three adjacent pads +5/Thi/Gnd (Throttle In) on the CA PCB, start simple and configure ThrI->CntrlMode = Pass-thru. Next you have a few choices:

EDIT - see the detailed instructions by Justin in this post.

Tench wrote: I am seeing over 4v on the green wire in the DP connector with a closed throttle...

This does not sound good - with the throttle closed you should be seeing the configured value ThrI->MinInput on that pin. Before you do any of the above, fix all the configuration settings and look at the real time voltage display. You should see Vi track your real throttle as you turn it and Vo should show the re-mapped values between the Throttle Out min and max voltages you have set. A quick check on pin 6 of the DP connector should show the same Vo voltage.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby teklektik » Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:54 pm

lizardboy wrote:Where do the wheel sensor leads go? The rpm inputs I guess?

No - if you mean the magnetic speedometer pickup, the leads go to Gnd and Sp (in place of the yellow wire from the DP connector). However, unless you have a gear motor you don't need the speedometer pickup - the DP connector supplies pulses from the halls in the motor but with a gear motor and clutch, the motor and bike speeds can be unrelated so you need the pickup.

lizardboy wrote:And the throttle just wires to the cycle analyst and not to the controller?

Yes.

lizardboy wrote:I had an idea which I've yet to check out but could the programmer that Lyen supplied with my controller be used, with a wiring adaptor to do the firmware updates?

The mini audio connector attached to the CA (Tx/Rx/Gnd connections) can drive an Analogger or can be used with a simple TTL->USB converter to do firmware updates. Not sure what Lyen supplies but an appropriate adapter is available from ebikes.ca.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby Tench » Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:58 pm

Thank you very much, so if i take the green wire off the CA board and run one from that pad to my controllers original throttle input wire it should all work?
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby Tench » Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:59 pm

Thats what i did with my wheel speed sensor wires, one to SP and one to G, that works fine.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby teklektik » Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:35 pm

Okay - a little cross-posting going on :D
Here's some catch-up:

Tench wrote:Been and made some adjustments,,
My throttle min output voltage is 0.85v so i set the min input to 0.87v
max input displayed by the CA is 4.19 so i set this to 4.10v
Min out put is set to 1.40v as i know the controller does not start til just above this voltage (even tried stting this to 0.40v)
Max out put is set to 4.10v.

Ramp up set to 500, ramp down to 999.

Sounds good - to summarize:

ThrI -> Cntrl Mode = Pass-thru (yes?)
ThrI -> Min Input = 0.87 Volts to ensure no output with closed throttle at 0.85
ThrI -> Max Input = 4.10 Volts so actual throttle voltage (4.19) will guarrantee max output
ThrO -> Output Mode = Voltage
ThrO -> Min Output = 1.40 Volts
ThrO -> Max Output = 4.10 Volts

Tench wrote:When i look at the throttle display screen, if i just open the throttle a little the bottom left read out starts to rise untill it max's out even with the input voltage only showing 0.9v, is this correct?

This is odd. With the throttle closed, the screen should show Vi=0.85 Vo=1.40.
As you increase the throttle Vi should rise to 4.19 and Vo should rise to 4.10.

Your situation is outside my limited testing this afternoon - this one will need help from Justin...
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby teklektik » Wed Apr 25, 2012 7:44 pm

Tench wrote:Thank you very much, so if i take the green wire off the CA board and run one from that pad to my controllers original throttle input wire it should all work?

Exactly - you need that connection.

Your Vo level in your last post confuses me, but I'm just hacking this along with everyone else, so there may be other parameter interactions in play we haven't quite figured out yet that will explain the different Vo behavior between your unit and mine - it will all become clear soon I'm sure :).

Anyhow - make the throttle connection and see how it goes.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby Cowardlyduck » Wed Apr 25, 2012 8:26 pm

I know it's probably a bit late for new features in this version of the CA, maybe for a future version.

Would it be possible to measure and display the current motor efficiency as a percentage?

I guess it would rely on the motor load being readable in some way.

I have no idea if it's technically possible, but thought it would be a nice feature if it is. :)

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby lizardboy » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:02 am

Ok thanks I couldn't see the silk screening over there as it was blocked by a square yellow component. All is working great now. Used the yellow wire to send the throttle signal to the CA and the green wire to send it back to the controller Very neat. Thanks for the help
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby Tench » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:39 am

teklektik wrote:
Tench wrote:Thank you very much, so if i take the green wire off the CA board and run one from that pad to my controllers original throttle input wire it should all work?

Exactly - you need that connection.

Your Vo level in your last post confuses me, but I'm just hacking this along with everyone else, so there may be other parameter interactions in play we haven't quite figured out yet that will explain the different Vo behavior between your unit and mine - it will all become clear soon I'm sure :).

Anyhow - make the throttle connection and see how it goes.

I connected the throttle output up correctly and all is well, it runs :D i have had a brief play but still need to spend some time experimenting with the ramp up and gains to find the best setup for my bike, the improvement in initial throttle action is well worth the cost of the V3, i can now ride as slow as i like in the lowest gear with brilliant control yet it still wheelies away if you want it to :D
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby shorza » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:51 am

Hey Justin, any idea when these might be off 'Beta'? I'm trying to figure out if it's worth buying one now, or waiting.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby teklektik » Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:32 am

Tench wrote:I connected the throttle output up correctly and all is well, it runs :D i have had a brief play but still need to spend some time experimenting with the ramp up and gains to find the best setup for my bike...

Excellent news! I'll be doing the same tweaking myself today.

I updated the v3B12 setup notes based on the questions above so basic setup is a little more step-by-step. This isn't as good as doc from Justin but he's kind of overloaded - maybe this will help a bit until an official version can be produced...
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby hjns » Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:19 pm

teklektik wrote:I updated the v3B12 setup notes based on the questions above so basic setup is a little more step-by-step. This isn't as good as doc from Justin but he's kind of overloaded - maybe this will help a bit until an official version can be produced...


Brilliant. In order to facilitate development of this "step-by-step-manual", I created a Google Docs Word document, to allow other people to contribute, because you should not be the only one "responsible" for this. If you and/or anybody who really wants to contribute to this can PM me your email address, I can give you editing rights. All people can leave comments, so the sporadic visitor can help out as well.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1x8S ... uVRVU/edit

Maybe after exploring / explaining the most important stuff, we can submit it to the WIKI pages / create a nice printable booklet.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Postby oatnet » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:38 pm

Personally, I'll continue to refer to teklektik's post, because it keeps the data on E:S, and as a rule I avoid giving Google any more data than I have to. I don't see much point to porting knowledge off E:S and into a wiki someone else controls either.

Teklektik, thanks for the content you generated! :D

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