Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

amberwolf · Post by **amberwolf** » Apr 24, 2012 3:12 pm

miro13car wrote:So how accurate it is after you enter correct wheel tire curcumstance

For a while I had both the CA and an old bike computer on CrazyBike2, same wheel size set in both, and readings were the same on each one for distance. The bike computer only read out in 0.5MPH increments and was very slow to display changes in speed, so I am not sure how comparable the speed display was--it always was close, but with the lag in display I couldn't always tell for sure. Can't recall the name of the BC right now, but there should be pics of it in my CB2 thread starting about September 2010.

miro13car · Post by **miro13car** » Apr 24, 2012 10:10 pm

I like to have seperate speed measuring device and Cateye is dead accurate after entering right circumvence.
It is not cheap computer /$35 minimum/ and shows speed in 0.1 km/h increments so not all BC are cheap crap.
It has to be measured with measuring tape on tire compressed under load of rider NOT just entered from the chart in manual.
So you say CA sampled speed much more often?
Couldn't you just measure distance? Did they shaw the same distance?

Post by **justin_le** » Apr 25, 2012 12:32 am

miro13car wrote: So you say CA sampled speed much more often?

In the CA you can set the display refresh rate for most items between 0.025 to 1.6 seconds. However, the speed is asynchronous from this setting and is updated instantaneously with each wheel revolution. On the V3 CA beta firmware, it's actually updated at each pole pulse at the moment, so with a hub that has 23 poles that means a very snappy feedback on the speed reading but it also means the numbers can move faster than you can read them, so I'll likely slow this down.

As with all bike computers, the distance and speed accuracy are just a function of how accurate you are able to know your wheel size, which you can tweak up and down to get the result you want. It's a rather moot question. -Justin

Post by **justin_le** » Apr 25, 2012 12:37 am

hjns wrote:Hi all,

I am trying to hook up my CA v3. I am runnng 30S 126V HOC.

For that, you should be OK connecting it up directly. Max voltage that the CA will display with the current resistor values is ~150V, so 126V off the charger will be alright. But for the production run we are considering changing the stock divider for 100V max, which gives better accuracy of the more normal ebike voltage range and encourages people running higher voltages to be safer in the installation and not send that directly to the handlebars.

-Justin

amberwolf · Post by **amberwolf** » Apr 25, 2012 1:56 am

miro13car wrote:So you say CA sampled speed much more often?
I have no idea if the speed was sampled any different, but the *display* was updated much less often on the bike computer.

Couldn't you just measure distance? Did they shaw the same distance?

I'll refer you to my post for that answer:

amberwolf wrote:readings were the same on each one for distance.

BTW, I checked, and the bike computer is a Vetta Innovator C100:

probably from the late 1980s or early 1990s. No idea if it's a great unit or crappy one; it came on the Nishiki when I got that at Savers for I think $20. It is so old that they don't have a manual on the website anymore for it, or any similar unit.
http://www.vetta.com/Instruction-Manual

hjns · Post by **hjns** » Apr 25, 2012 3:34 am

justin_le wrote:For that, you should be OK connecting it up directly. Max voltage that the CA will display with the current resistor values is ~150V, so 126V off the charger will be alright. But for the production run we are considering changing the stock divider for 100V max, which gives better accuracy of the more normal ebike voltage range and encourages people running higher voltages to be safer in the installation and not send that directly to the handlebars.
-Justin

Great, exactly what I need. Thanks for the quick response!

miro13car · Post by **miro13car** » Apr 25, 2012 11:18 am

The question was how accurate was CA speed reading
I tried 2 $8 bike computers and no matter how accurate you enter
tire cucimvence still reading not even close to GPS.
So not so moot simple is not only matter what you enter but what alogartm
they use to calculate, right?

I understand for speed reading you still use magnetic pick up.
On newest CA?
Why do mention poles of motor?

oatnet · Post by **oatnet** » Apr 25, 2012 11:33 am

miro13car wrote:I understand for speed reading you still use magnetic pick up.
On newest CA?
Why do mention poles of motor?

The CA can use either a magnetic pickup in the standalone or speedo version, or get the signal from the hall sensor in the the direct-plug version. The questions you are asking can be answered with a quick RTFM, this site lays out what the CA is and does:

http://ebikes.ca/drainbrain.shtml

Here is the actual manual:
http://ebikes.ca/drainbrain/CA_Large_V223_Web.pdf

Tench · Post by **Tench** » Apr 25, 2012 12:28 pm

All versions of the CA can be wired either for a speed signal from the motor or the external wheel speed sensor, 2 minute job to switch from one type to the other.

teklektik · Post by **teklektik** » Apr 25, 2012 3:06 pm

Unofficial User Guide

UUG Files orig

uug3-0.png (31.25 KiB) Viewed 34844 times

>>> Subscribe to this thread to be notified of new firmware and Guide updates! <<<

Printable Unofficial User Guide

The Unofficial User Guide is available as a printable PDF file below.
The PDF is updated from time to time - determine the freshness of any previously downloaded version by comparing the sequenced filenames.
To avoid propagating obsolete information, please do not post or distribute this file - link to this post instead.
- CaV3_UUG_3-0e.pdf
  
  document version 3.0-e released 2016-02-16 (10130 prior version downloads)
  
  (3.53 MiB) Downloaded 7068 times
The following PDF is offered as a convenience for shop reference. This page is included as an Appendix in the User Guide above.
- CaV3ConnectorPinoutAndPcbImages_20130315.pdf
  
  (199.13 KiB) Downloaded 4094 times
Using the Guide

The size of the Guide may look daunting, but the sections are divided into three major groups - much of which is optional:
1. Sections 1-3 -- Basic Operation and Features
  These give an overview of the features, console and button operation, and configuration considerations.
  Read this.
2. Section 4 -- Basic Installation Steps
  Most of this addresses the many installation options for different controllers and hardware, so you do only the part that applies to your hardware. Here's a summary of the basic steps. This is a step by step guide and must be followed in order - don't skip steps unless instructed. Do the steps as you read them, don't 'get the gist' and wing it.
  Follow these instructions carefully and exactly.
  - Simplified view of installation process (from Guide Table of Contents)
    
    Ca3SetupOview.png (64.54 KiB) Viewed 6953 times
3. Sections 5-6 -- Advanced Feature Reference & Tips and Tricks
  These section are written as a reference manual so you can just read the parts that you want to implement. This covers all the advanced features that can be set up AFTER completing section 4. Section 6 has some hints to help with installation or get the most out of your CA (e.g. 'determining pole count' or 'logging data with your phone').
  Optional - read the parts that describe features of interest.
If you get stuck and can't find an answer, start by trying a simple PDF search to locate information that may be hiding where you didn't expect....

Other Support Files

The Excel 2003 XLS files will run on newer versions of Excel, free OpenOffice, free LibreOffice, or an Android phone or tablet using a free spreadsheet app like OfficeSuite. The spreads were not really sized for small phone/tablet screens so some flicking about is required, but are fine for occasional field or shop use.
1. This XLS spreadsheet calculates proper settings of Temp->0degVolts and Temp->Scale for linear PTC devices (e.g.KTYxx series).
  Some example devices are already entered and results pre-computed.
  - CaV3_LinearTempSensorCalculator_v5.xls
    
    Setup Parameter Calculator for Linear Temp Devices - V5 posted 2016-04-08
    
    (126.5 KiB) Downloaded 458 times
    
    Snapshot of spreadsheet if you only need settings for a KTY part
    
    CaV3_LinearTempSensorCalculator_v5.png (238.71 KiB) Viewed 18202 times
2. This XLS spreadsheet calculates proper settings of Aux->MinAuxIn and Aux->MaxAuxIn to get arbitrary percentage limits for 3-position switches using fixed resistors. Spread is configured for Grin Tech standard 3-postion switch by default. Resistor values can be substituted or resistors omitted to use parts on hand or change the limit percentage ranges to other than that available with the standard switch.
  - AuxPot-LMH-SimpleFixedR-Designer_V2-1.xls
    
    3-position LMH switch settings calculator - V2.1 posted 2016-02-28
    
    (33 KiB) Downloaded 418 times
    
    AuxPot-LMH-SimpleFixedR-Designer_V2-1.png (80.78 KiB) Viewed 18894 times
3.04 Production Patch Release - Firmware Download

The latest CA production firmware is available for download on the Grin Tech CA V3 web page as part of the newest Setup Utility (1.4x) download. Update your CA to the latest firmware installed on new factory units.

3.1 Beta - Pre-Production Firmware Download

Pre-production firmware is not officially released as part of the Cycle Analyst product, but provides an opportunity to preview and test new features under development that will appear in the next production release. Changes to existing 3.0 features and new 3.1 features are not covered in the 3.0 Guide above - see the Release Notes for each firmware release and the linked posts described above.

The latest CA pre-production firmware is available for download on the Grin Tech CA V3 web page as part of the newest Setup Utility (1.53x) download.
- New production and beta firmware can be downloaded using Setup Utility 1.53 and onward - there is no need to do so manually as in the past.
- Older 3.1 beta firmware packages compatible with the earlier Setup Utility 1.3x are posted in this thread in the two links below. However, upgrade and use of the newer SU1.5x utility is highly recommended.
  - SU 1.3 / 3.1 beta 16 firmware may be downloaded >>>here<<<.
  - The first beta firmware description (3.1b2) is >>>here<<<.
    
    The beta firmware posts are linked together at the bottom; read the linked posts from the first for descriptions of *all* the features in 3.1 that were added since the last production release (3.03).
3.1 Beta - Digital Aux Feature

Important! Beginning with 3.1b15, the DigiAux feature will assume use of Schottky diodes and both resistors R2=R4=4.7K. 3.1b12,b13,b14 are released with two packages to support both Schottky and conventional diodes to ease the transition. See this post for additional details about this design change, an available Grin DigiAux Switch, and small PCB with mounted parts. This document will be appropriately updated shortly to reflect the diode component change.

Version 3.1b4 beta firmware and beyond support a new Digital Aux feature that allows the Cycle Analyst to actively control two different Aux Input features at once using two separate external controls. The PDF document below describes the feature and how to connect new pushbutton controls to the CA.
<<<< document CaV3_DigiAux_1-0e.pdf withdrawn pending update to Schottky diodes and R2=R4=4.7K >>>>

Auxiliary Input configuration for analog and digital controls

SetupUtil_b5.png (30.55 KiB) Viewed 16386 times
[+] Posts of Interest -- Thread Index
[+] Historical Posts -- Firmware Releases and Parameter Documentation
The following lists are only of historical interest. Although the linked material remains valid, the lists are no longer updated.
The printable Setup Parameter PDF and XLS files are no longer maintained - superseded by by the CA Setup Utility.
See the Grin Tech V3 Web Page for contemporary firmware/utility downloads and information.
1. Software, Firmware, and Release Notes
  The release notes describe new features and how to use them.
  [*]Setup Parameter Overview and Printable Forms
  As of V3B19 a detailed description of all Setup parameters is available on the Grin Tech site.
  
  Printable forms for saving settings when re-flashing are available at the links below. The newer forms also indicate whether individual parameters are global or may be set uniquely in different battery or mode presets.
  - [*]v3.0 Prelim6
    [*]v3.0 Prelim5
    [*]v3B23 aka v3.0 Prelim
    [*]v3B22
    [*]v3B21
    [*]v3B20
    [*]v3B19
    [*]v3B17 - configuration essentially identical to v3B16
    [*]v3B16
    [*]v3B15
    [*]v3B14
    [*]v3B13
    [*]v3B12

Tench · Post by **Tench** » Apr 25, 2012 4:46 pm

I have just wired mine in, i get the throttle slider going up and down but no motor?

i have set the ramp down to 001 so i will go and change that. I only have the DP connector between CA and controller, do i need to use the original controller throttle input wire? I am seeing over 4v on the green wire in the DP connector with a closed throttle so i presume the controller has shut down because the start voltage is too high on the throttle wire, or am i wrong?

I have set the voltages for input and out put below the actual min throttle output and the actual voltage the controller needs to start, i didnt know i could read them from the CA so i can do that aswell.

Been and made some adjustments,,

My throttle min output voltage is 0.85v so i set the min input to 0.87v
max input displayed by the CA is 4.19 so i set this to 4.10v
Min out put is set to 1.40v as i know the controller does not start til just above this voltage (even tried stting this to 0.40v)
Max out put is set to 4.10v.

Ramp up set to 500, ramp down to 999.

When i look at the throttle display screen, if i just open the throttle a little the bottom left read out starts to rise untill it max's out even with the input voltage only showing 0.9v, is this correct?

I still dont have any drive, i have the tried speed and current settings aswell as pass through, no drive? what am i doing wrong?

I should stick to hammers and welding!!

Simon.

lizardboy · Post by **lizardboy** » Apr 25, 2012 6:26 pm

Got mine and starting the wire up.. Where do the wheel sensor leads go? The rpm inputs I guess? And the the throttle just wires to the cycle analyst and not to the controller?

I had an idea which I've yet to check out but could the programmer that Lyen supplied with my controller be used, with a wiring adaptor to do the firmware updates? Gonna beep out the wiring and report back.

Darrin

teklektik · Post by **teklektik** » Apr 25, 2012 6:27 pm

Tench wrote:I only have the DP connector between CA and controller, do i need to use the original controller throttle input wire?

Yep. The problem is that pin 6 on the DP connector is Throttle Out on the CA side but Throttle Override on the controller side, that is, the controller is only using the voltage in a 'limiting' capacity...

The DP connector (pin 6 - green wire) is connected to the CA PCB ThO pin (Throttle Out). This is tied inside your controller with a resistor and diode to cause the external DP throttle connection to operate as a current sink to pull down (limit) the real throttle input to the controller - current flows out of the controller during limiting and any apparent voltage on the green DP lead cannot flow in to drive the controller. See section 7.1 of the v2.23 CA Manual. You need to get around this current sink limitation - at the moment, you have no controller throttle input so motor no go...

: Pin 6 is really 'Throttle Out' on the CA but 'Throttle Override' on the controller; CA-DP_pinout.gif (9.88 KiB) Viewed 47028 times

Assuming that your real throttle leads are tied to the three adjacent pads +5/Thi/Gnd (Throttle In) on the CA PCB, start simple and configure ThrI->CntrlMode = Pass-thru. Next you have a few choices:

EDIT - see the detailed instructions by Justin in this post.

Tench wrote: I am seeing over 4v on the green wire in the DP connector with a closed throttle...

This does not sound good - with the throttle closed you should be seeing the configured value ThrI->MinInput on that pin. Before you do any of the above, fix all the configuration settings and look at the real time voltage display. You should see Vi track your real throttle as you turn it and Vo should show the re-mapped values between the Throttle Out min and max voltages you have set. A quick check on pin 6 of the DP connector should show the same Vo voltage.

teklektik · Post by **teklektik** » Apr 25, 2012 6:54 pm

lizardboy wrote:Where do the wheel sensor leads go? The rpm inputs I guess?

No - if you mean the magnetic speedometer pickup, the leads go to Gnd and Sp (in place of the yellow wire from the DP connector). However, unless you have a gear motor you don't need the speedometer pickup - the DP connector supplies pulses from the halls in the motor but with a gear motor and clutch, the motor and bike speeds can be unrelated so you need the pickup.

lizardboy wrote:And the throttle just wires to the cycle analyst and not to the controller?

Yes.

lizardboy wrote:I had an idea which I've yet to check out but could the programmer that Lyen supplied with my controller be used, with a wiring adaptor to do the firmware updates?

The mini audio connector attached to the CA (Tx/Rx/Gnd connections) can drive an Analogger or can be used with a simple TTL->USB converter to do firmware updates. Not sure what Lyen supplies but an appropriate adapter is available from ebikes.ca.

Tench · Post by **Tench** » Apr 25, 2012 6:58 pm

Thank you very much, so if i take the green wire off the CA board and run one from that pad to my controllers original throttle input wire it should all work?

Tench · Post by **Tench** » Apr 25, 2012 6:59 pm

Thats what i did with my wheel speed sensor wires, one to SP and one to G, that works fine.

teklektik · Post by **teklektik** » Apr 25, 2012 7:35 pm

Okay - a little cross-posting going on

Here's some catch-up:

Tench wrote:Been and made some adjustments,,
My throttle min output voltage is 0.85v so i set the min input to 0.87v
max input displayed by the CA is 4.19 so i set this to 4.10v
Min out put is set to 1.40v as i know the controller does not start til just above this voltage (even tried stting this to 0.40v)
Max out put is set to 4.10v.

Ramp up set to 500, ramp down to 999.

Sounds good - to summarize:

ThrI -> Cntrl Mode = Pass-thru (yes?)
ThrI -> Min Input = 0.87 Volts to ensure no output with closed throttle at 0.85
ThrI -> Max Input = 4.10 Volts so actual throttle voltage (4.19) will guarrantee max output
ThrO -> Output Mode = Voltage
ThrO -> Min Output = 1.40 Volts
ThrO -> Max Output = 4.10 Volts

Tench wrote: When i look at the throttle display screen, if i just open the throttle a little the bottom left read out starts to rise untill it max's out even with the input voltage only showing 0.9v, is this correct?

This is odd. With the throttle closed, the screen should show Vi=0.85 Vo=1.40.
As you increase the throttle Vi should rise to 4.19 and Vo should rise to 4.10.

Your situation is outside my limited testing this afternoon - this one will need help from Justin...

teklektik · Post by **teklektik** » Apr 25, 2012 7:44 pm

Tench wrote:Thank you very much, so if i take the green wire off the CA board and run one from that pad to my controllers original throttle input wire it should all work?

Exactly - you need that connection.

Your Vo level in your last post confuses me, but I'm just hacking this along with everyone else, so there may be other parameter interactions in play we haven't quite figured out yet that will explain the different Vo behavior between your unit and mine - it will all become clear soon I'm sure

.

Anyhow - make the throttle connection and see how it goes.

Cowardlyduck · Post by **Cowardlyduck** » Apr 25, 2012 8:26 pm

I know it's probably a bit late for new features in this version of the CA, maybe for a future version.

Would it be possible to measure and display the current motor efficiency as a percentage?

I guess it would rely on the motor load being readable in some way.

I have no idea if it's technically possible, but thought it would be a nice feature if it is.

Cheers

lizardboy · Post by **lizardboy** » Apr 26, 2012 12:02 am

Ok thanks I couldn't see the silk screening over there as it was blocked by a square yellow component. All is working great now. Used the yellow wire to send the throttle signal to the CA and the green wire to send it back to the controller Very neat. Thanks for the help

Tench · Post by **Tench** » Apr 26, 2012 7:39 am

teklektik wrote:
Tench wrote:Thank you very much, so if i take the green wire off the CA board and run one from that pad to my controllers original throttle input wire it should all work?
Exactly - you need that connection.

Your Vo level in your last post confuses me, but I'm just hacking this along with everyone else, so there may be other parameter interactions in play we haven't quite figured out yet that will explain the different Vo behavior between your unit and mine - it will all become clear soon I'm sure .

Anyhow - make the throttle connection and see how it goes.

I connected the throttle output up correctly and all is well, it runs

i have had a brief play but still need to spend some time experimenting with the ramp up and gains to find the best setup for my bike, the improvement in initial throttle action is well worth the cost of the V3, i can now ride as slow as i like in the lowest gear with brilliant control yet it still wheelies away if you want it to

shorza · Post by **shorza** » Apr 26, 2012 8:51 am

Hey Justin, any idea when these might be off 'Beta'? I'm trying to figure out if it's worth buying one now, or waiting.

teklektik · Post by **teklektik** » Apr 26, 2012 11:32 am

Tench wrote:I connected the throttle output up correctly and all is well, it runs i have had a brief play but still need to spend some time experimenting with the ramp up and gains to find the best setup for my bike...

Excellent news! I'll be doing the same tweaking myself today.

I updated the v3B12 setup notes based on the questions above so basic setup is a little more step-by-step. This isn't as good as doc from Justin but he's kind of overloaded - maybe this will help a bit until an official version can be produced...

hjns · Post by **hjns** » Apr 26, 2012 12:19 pm

teklektik wrote:I updated the v3B12 setup notes based on the questions above so basic setup is a little more step-by-step. This isn't as good as doc from Justin but he's kind of overloaded - maybe this will help a bit until an official version can be produced...

Brilliant. In order to facilitate development of this "step-by-step-manual", I created a Google Docs Word document, to allow other people to contribute, because you should not be the only one "responsible" for this. If you and/or anybody who really wants to contribute to this can PM me your email address, I can give you editing rights. All people can leave comments, so the sporadic visitor can help out as well.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1x8S ... uVRVU/edit

Maybe after exploring / explaining the most important stuff, we can submit it to the WIKI pages / create a nice printable booklet.

oatnet · Post by **oatnet** » Apr 26, 2012 2:38 pm

Personally, I'll continue to refer to teklektik's post, because it keeps the data on E:S, and as a rule I avoid giving Google any more data than I have to. I don't see much point to porting knowledge off E:S and into a wiki someone else controls either.

Teklektik, thanks for the content you generated!

-JD

Endless Sphere

Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Cycle Analyst V3 - Unofficial User Guide / User Manual

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release