Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Apr 26 2012 3:12pm

You're very welcome. It's just unofficial 'discovered' stuff - hope it helps, but no promises... :wink:
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by hjns » Apr 26 2012 3:22pm

Well, whatever you prefer. Just trying to help.

teklektik, great stuff. Thanks!
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Apr 26 2012 5:13pm

hjns wrote:In order to facilitate development of this "step-by-step-manual", I created a Google Docs Word document, to allow other people to contribute, ... Maybe after exploring / explaining the most important stuff, we can submit it to the WIKI pages / create a nice printable booklet.
I see where you are going with this - a helpful idea, but I would prefer to avoid the linear format of a Word document in lieu of being able to hyperlink posts (I confess to being unfamiliar with Google Word Doc crossref capability but MS Word crossrefs are a PITA). I see difficulties in linking ES posts to specific chapters/sections of a Google Doc for reference. Also, due to the loss of formatting and different composition capabilities of Google Word Doc vs. a Wiki, it would make more sense to simply use the Wiki directly - Wikis were intended for hyperlinked content and multi-user contribution.

What say we continue along in this thread for a bit and revisit the shared doc concept if we experience noteworthy shortfalls with the current format? I would personally feel better about making the jump if we had a clear issue to address to offset some of the downsides to the linear medium and problematic cross-site content references.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Cowardlyduck » Apr 26 2012 8:07pm

Cowardlyduck wrote:I know it's probably a bit late for new features in this version of the CA, maybe for a future version.

Would it be possible to measure and display the current motor efficiency as a percentage?

I guess it would rely on the motor load being readable in some way.

I have no idea if it's technically possible, but thought it would be a nice feature if it is. :)

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Anyone care to comment on this. Would it even be possible?

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Alan B   100 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Alan B » Apr 26 2012 8:26pm

Not practical, output power is missing. You have RPM and input power but output torque is unknown, phase current is unknown, pwm duty cycle is unknown, so not quite enough information to do it.

Be very nice to do, though.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by lizardboy » Apr 28 2012 10:50am

Anyone having problems with the Rshunt calibration? Changing the value in this field doesn't seem to do anything. Ive tried many values all result in exactly the same readings. Mines off currently by a factor of 4 I've of course set it to the value I used in my previous cycle analyst. Could just be a test value left in the program any comments?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Apr 28 2012 3:24pm

Cal->Rshunt appears to be working properly for me.

However, a couple of days of testing and Justin's remarks about incomplete functionality and coming revisions have led me to use only a basic v2.23 mode of operation with
  • ThrI->CntrlMode = Pass-thru, running the throttle through the CA instead of in override mode as I had the v2.23 unit configured.
  • Ctrl->AuxFunct = Amps Lim to handle external limiting switches
  • The ramp functionality has given me problems and I have left ThrO->UpRamp = 999, ThrO->DownRamp = 999.
  • Power limiting (by Watts) is problematic causing speed oscillations even with Plim->WGain = 01.
    I am using Plim->Max Power = (controller_rating) (a comparatively large value) to effectively deactivate power limiting at lower speeds.
  • SLim->MaxSpeed = 99 to effectively deactivate speed limiting
Also:
  • Ctrl->AuxFunct = PowerLim does not appear to be implemented.
  • Resetting the trip statistics causes the throttle to burp and the bike to lurch - be careful.
I have had a number of issues, some of which are showstoppers, but which are no doubt related to the very preliminary nature of this release and so are not worth relating.

On the upside, the kit of CA + supporting components is very complete and the hardware is in hand, installed, and operating properly :D .
I am looking forward to improved v3B13 firmware with anticipation (in spite of the inauspicious version number... :wink: )
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lizardboy   10 mW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by lizardboy » Apr 28 2012 5:26pm

What controller are you using I'm using a 9fet and expect to have a 5 m/ohm shunt perhaps yours is working because your controller matches the shunt value that appears to be the defaut.
Not sure, what I can tell you is that I've tried values from .25 to 10 and get exactly the same wattage it peaks at 334 when normally this should be 1512 or so perhaps some other calibration setting is affecting my readings. The voltmeter appears a to be off by a bit so maybe that skewing something. I'm well aware it's a beta just trying to report what appears to be a show stopper for me.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Apr 28 2012 5:33pm

lizardboy wrote:... perhaps yours is working because your controller matches the shunt value that appears to be the defaut.
Nope - I'm using a CA standalone shunt dongle and specifically set the appropriate value. I tried altering the Cal->RShunt value just as a test after you reported difficulties, and the displayed Amperage changed appropriately. My Amp/Watt readings match the older v2.23 unit.

You have something else going on...
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Tench » Apr 28 2012 6:01pm

Mine also blips the throttle when the reset button is pressed :shock: good job it was on the stand when i first did this!

I dont use the Amps limit as i run at the contoller max current, i shall try lowering it to see if mine works, i will try this with power and speed limits too.

Another thing i noticed is when set to current throttle, with the drive wheel off the floor if i open the throttle just a little to get the wheel spinning the throttle output voltage generated by the CA (on the 2 click left screen) will climb untill it reaches the preset max figure while the throttle imput voltage is still near to minimum, can someone else try this to see if it is just my unit?

Also if the throttle output max is set to be lower than the throttle input max then full output throttle voltage is achieved before the throttle is wound to the wot position creating a dead spot at the top of the throttle, it was in current mode when this was noticed, i have not tried it in any other mode yet.

I do like the throttle ramp up, i have mine set to 200 with the throttle in current control mode, grab a big handfull and the bike takes off strong but smooth with the power building as the revs rise quite like an ICE powered bike.
In this mode the motor seems to make more "noise" than it did with the V2.25, and trying to hold it on a steady throttle at very slow speeds up a slight gradient has the power delivery oscilating up and down, i dont know why, i will try the various limits to try and iron it out.

I have loaded the shunt value from the previous V2.25 unit and all apears well, i will keep my eye on that to see if it gives the same watts per mile etc.

How do i find out the IR for my pack? 18s2p 30c Zippy 8000mah lipo? The icharger can measure IR but i charge it as 6s6p so the value will be different wont it?

But i love it!! the fine control of the throttle parameters and adjustable ramp up has ironed out the abruptness it had before and made me very glad i got one :D :D When Justin has got all the bugs out i shall have another for my next build!

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teklektik   10 GW

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Apr 28 2012 6:11pm

Tench wrote:How do i find out the IR for my pack?
See Step 10 in setup notes.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by toolman2 » Apr 28 2012 10:34pm

Tench wrote:Another thing i noticed is when set to current throttle, with the drive wheel off the floor if i open the throttle just a little to get the wheel spinning the throttle output voltage generated by the CA (on the 2 click left screen) will climb untill it reaches the preset max figure while the throttle imput voltage is still near to minimum, can someone else try this to see if it is just my unit?

But i love it!! the fine control of the throttle parameters and adjustable ramp up has ironed out the abruptness it had before and made me very glad i got one :D :D When Justin has got all the bugs out i shall have another for my next build!

Simon.
when you have current based throttle, thats exactly what should happen, it should only take a few % throttle (if the motor is unloaded) to get up to full rpm. its also appears "normal" for people to initially not get what current/torque throttle is all about, for some reason everyone i have ever explained the reason and need for current throttle (and not speed throttle) on high torque machines goes into debate/denial mode before acctually understanding it. :roll:

but the good news is that its a massive improvement in throttle control and is really badly needed on a geared motor like yours, i might just add a quick told you so if you dont mind tench :wink: and now with justins fine work and some fine tuning, we can all maintain way better control of our increasingly powerful 'flip you off the back cos the throttles so touchy' type machines.

i reckon lukes agni bike vid (the you know the bike is dangerous one) with the poor dude laying down behind the bike shoeless, would have been a lovely and peaceful bicycle ride if it had a well tuned current throttle..

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Alan B » Apr 28 2012 10:44pm

If Luke's Agni was not exciting he would not have built it. :)

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by lizardboy » Apr 28 2012 11:04pm

Hi I'm still having trouble with the current sensing. I checked the wiring from the the board through to the controller and it has continuity and everything apears to be wired properly in the CA. Tomorrow I'll hook up a constant current source and read the millivolts at the terminals of the CA that should nail it down. I could also rewire the throttle and put the old CA back as a test. Seems funny that it reads some wattage and current just at the wrong values. I would have expected a wiring problem with that kind of reading. It can't be settings or firmware if it works for other people.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Tench » Apr 29 2012 4:30am

toolman2 wrote: but the good news is that its a massive improvement in throttle control and is really badly needed on a geared motor like yours, i might just add a quick told you so if you dont mind tench :wink: and now with justins fine work and some fine tuning, we can all maintain way better control of our increasingly powerful 'flip you off the back cos the throttles so touchy' type machines.

i reckon lukes agni bike vid (the you know the bike is dangerous one) with the poor dude laying down behind the bike shoeless, would have been a lovely and peaceful bicycle ride if it had a well tuned current throttle..
Thanks Toolman2, i am still on a steep learning curve with this game, atleast now i know a little more :D

If you want lovely and peacefull that is fine, each to there own, me i would prefere a wild ride :wink: the step forward this V3 has given us towards taming the beasts we build is massive, i am now having thoughts about ME0709's with aux pot power limiting :shock:
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by toolman2 » Apr 29 2012 7:01am

a good egsample of maby not quite getting it, using the nice and gentle bit in the early part of throttle movement is up to the rider, but we all know that when you floor it you still get the exact same power. -dont we :?:
so the shoeless dude would get to chose how much fury is unleashed from lukes bike (or ours) rather than just looking at the throttle and getting the lot!

a big thanks to justin and all you testers helping provide a much needed brain for our machines.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Tench » Apr 29 2012 10:41am

toolman2 wrote:a good egsample of maby not quite getting it, using the nice and gentle bit in the early part of throttle movement is up to the rider, but we all know that when you floor it you still get the exact same power. -dont we :?:
so the shoeless dude would get to chose how much fury is unleashed from lukes bike (or ours) rather than just looking at the throttle and getting the lot!

a big thanks to justin and all you testers helping provide a much needed brain for our machines.
Exactly right!!

The V3 allows us to build powerfull bikes and gives us the finesse to make them user friendly, this is what a lot of people have needed for a long time, the best of both worlds!
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by ohzee » Apr 29 2012 1:44pm

Yea I am running 100V thru a mac 8t mid drive kit and while it's impressive it's so jerky.

Once I can buy this new CA v3 to help add a better curve to the power I will be right on it.

Great job Justin I hope you get to enjoy the rewards of your success.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by justin_le » Apr 30 2012 3:17am

teklektik wrote:I updated the v3B12 setup notes based on the questions above so basic setup is a little more step-by-step. This isn't as good as doc from Justin but he's kind of overloaded - maybe this will help a bit until an official version can be produced...
Hey Teklektic and thanks tons for creating the menu summary and helping people navigate through getting things setup! I owe you. For the last 2 weeks of April I was enrolled in a full-time course at in the not-so-close town of Abbotford, and so with that's that on top of everything else to manage at the shop, things indeed got a bit over the top. I'll have a new Beta12 firmware version posted here in the next 3-4 days and will provide more documentation on the various settings with that. But for now only thing to add to what Teklektik has shared is that if you do select the Linear temp probe, then the options for setting the scaling factor and offset will also show up in the menu.

Anyways, it's good to see that people are messing around a bit deeper. The info about the watts limit is interesting since it does operate on quite a different scaling factor. Can you tell me if you are running in high range or low range mode with the RShunt setting? In high range mode, everything would scale again by a factor of 10, that might be why even a setting of 1 is too high. It sounds in any case like this will need a decimal shift or two to be in the correct ballpark range for your setups. In the meantime though, you might be able to still get smooth operation in power limiting mode by setting the throttle ramp up and ramp down rate limits to a value like 100 or so.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Hyena » Apr 30 2012 6:11am

justin_le wrote:Temperature:This input can be either a 10K NTC thermistor,
Anyone had a play with thermistors yet ?
I don't know much about them but there seems to be a fair variation in price ranging from THESE that are under $2 for 10 or others that are $5 each or more.
The LM235 seems to have a similarly suitable temperature range up to 125 oC. The LM135 goes up to 150 oC which would be nice for those pushing it to the limit but they're heap more expensive.
I'm happy for the CA to step in around 120 though!
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Apr 30 2012 10:36am

justin_le wrote: ...if you do select the Linear temp probe, then the options for setting the scaling factor and offset will also show up in the menu.
Config parm summary updated to reflect additional linear sensor parameters...
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On using Cell_Man MAC motors with temp sensors on the new CA

Post by Joe Perez » Apr 30 2012 11:50am

teklektik wrote:Config parm summary updated to reflect additional linear sensor parameters...
Thanks for that- this had been causing me some consternation prior to actually receiving the unit and seeing how it worked.

Also, a note on the use of "other" temp sensors:

I'm awaiting the delivery of a MAC motor from Cell-Man. These motors are fitted with an LM35 temperature sensor, which is different from either the LM335 or the NTC thermistor that Justin suggests. Specifically, thermistors and LM335s act like resistors or zener diodes, which conduct current to ground depending on temperature. As such the CA-3 is fitted with a pullup resistor on the "NTC" pad. Although the part number seems quite similar (LM35 vs. LM335), these devices are quite different.

The LM35 is an active device, which outputs a positive voltage which varies with temperature. Cell_Man selected this device over the passive devices which Justin suggested to enable folks without CAs to use a simple voltmeter to measure temperature (the LM35 outputs 10mv / °C, so it reads nicely on even a simple $5 voltmeter.) However the internal architecture of the LM35 is such that it won't work properly with a pullup voltage applied to its output- it can only source current, not sink it.

So, to use one of these devices, you need to remove the pullup resistor (R17) from the CA board. It's a tiny little surface-mount part, but shouldn't be too difficult if you have a pair of irons to lift it up tweezer-style:

Image


Having removed this resistor, you can pick up 5v at the adjacent pad to supply operating power to the LM35, and then calibrate the software for 0 degrees = 0 volts and 100 degrees = 1 volt.



EDIT:

The NTC input on the CA tends to float high when unconnected, or when connected to a device which cannot sink current to ground on its output such as the LM35. With the circuit configured as described above, I saw false-high readings of 100 degrees or more, just from the stray voltages floating around the circuit.

This has been solved by simply placing a pull-down resistor between the NTC pad and ground, to eliminate the stray voltage. I've tested the circuit with a 390 ohm resistor (simply because it's the first small-value I happened to pull out of the pile), and it is now giving me a believable indication of 22-23 degrees while resting at room temperature. I haven't load-tested the bike yet to see how it performs as the motor warms up (I'm tethered to my workbench at the moment owing to the lack of a functional battery, and I found out the hard way that using your rear brake as a dyno load doesn't work for very long.)

Too low of a resistor value will negatively impact the performance of the circuit, as the output of the LM35 is relatively weak- it can only source 10ma on its output. I may experiment with larger resistor values to see if I can still hold down the float voltages while pulling less current from the LM35, though even at 390 ohms I'm loading it pretty lightly- less than 4ma at 150 degrees (1.5v).
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by lizardboy » Apr 30 2012 12:34pm

Hi everyone;

I have a few more details about my current sensing issue. I hooked up a constant current supply from my icharger through the controller. I set the icharger for 5 amps and recorded these readings.

Rshunt set to 1.000 CA reading. 1.2 A
Rshunt set to 5.002 CA reading. 1.0 A
Rshunt set to 9.903 CA reading. .5. A

As a test I plugged my old cycle analyst back in to the direct plugin. It measured the current properly so I could use some input on what to check from here. The voltage measures properly and the speed sensor and speed limiting work properly.I haven't checked the current shunt voltage at the CA pins but with such high voltage very nearby I didn't want to start probing around with the test leads.

Your gonna love that mac motor..

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by lizardboy » May 02 2012 5:17pm

The problem with my current sensing has been solved,

Thanks to justin's late night and early morning tech support the culprit has been identified. Turns out at some point I must have set the rshunt value close to 9.999 which due to rounding rolled over in the internal register to a number larger than the display could hold. So my rshunt had in a sense an extra number that couldn't be seen or modified.

I must point out that this has totally been fixed and won't happen again. It was just a function of the software undergoing development and is fixed in the 3B13 firmware that will be out shortly.

After much trying and yet more tech support from Justin I managed to use the programing cable from my lyen 9 fet infineon controller by soldering on the needed cable and jack. reflashing the firmware reset the stored value and off I went.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Tench » May 02 2012 5:41pm

Glad you got it sorted :D

Justin, i have nticed an anomaly, sometimes when i switch the controller on (un-modded 72v40a from ebikes.ca) i get 74.9v on the CA main screen (18s) and then turn it off and on again and it might display 75.2v :shock: it has done this a few times now.
With the v2.25 it always displayed the same voltage. When i changed over to the V3 i only changed the board not the wiring other than reconnecting the green wire correctly after first doing it wrong. Earlier today i turned it on to see 74.9v, i turned the controller off waited a few seconds then turned it back on to see it dsplay 75.2v and had a little blip of life from the motor as the system turned on, i think the difference in voltage sensing changes one of the throttle values too causing the blip.

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