Over 65mph on 20s see pg 4

General Discussion about electric bicycles.
John in CR   100 GW

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Over 65mph on 20s see pg 4

Post by John in CR » Jul 11 2012 7:35pm

My favorite visitor stopped by today...the Fedex man, and man oh man did Christmas come early....a new motor for testing!!!
Not only did she arrive sooner than I thought, but she weighs over 6kg less than I expected coming in at only 14kg plus a 3kg alloy rim, another surprise. While I'm sure that seems like a boat anchor to the weight weenies, once you consider she's about 5kg lighter than Hubmonster, but has almost double the power rating in a far more compact size it's easy to see why I can't contain my excitement.

Cover to cover with the 3 bolt moto disc brake mount removed she's only about 140mm wide, so she'll be easy to fit once I work out a dropout solution, though a normal dropout won't fit. There's no way a normal dropout could stand up to this power and torque anyway, even with typical torque arms. The 1" diameter axle means no worries about snapping this axle either.

Not only is her 60mm stator packed with the same extremely high quality materials like the Mini-Monster I started selling, but she's even more efficient, boasting a peak efficiency of 94.6% :shock: . Other than the nearly as heavy much lower powered Csiro that costs over $12,000, I don't know of any hubmotor that comes even close to that kind of efficiency. eg Hubmonster's peak efficiency is only about 83%. I've dubbed the new top dog Hubmonster HE.

We've speculated about the benefits to be obtained with a motor having more than the standard 3 phases. This motor has 6 phases, and we were right about the potential benefits, because in addition to helping with efficiency, having more phases results in a smoother and more quiet take off, and the prime efficiency band is much broader too. It needs it because it's designed to haul a 350lb scooter plus rider up a 25% grade as well as cruise on the highway at 95kph without burning up with only a 67V nominal saggy LiFePo4 pack. Imagine what it will do with 20s of high power lipo and a 100lb bike. :twisted:

I'm going to run it in stock form for a while and feed it with only 150A battery side compared to the 100A they run on the scooter and verify that heat isn't an issue with serious mountain climbing and highway runs. Then I'll open it up for performance mods including beefing up those six phases and let her breathe some fresh air. Depending how thick the wire bundle is for the windings will determine whether I go to 400A peak like I'm running Hubmonster or go to 500A. In either case I'll need to put the CG further in front than on my SuperV so I can get even more aggressive with the throttle. I want to get closer to being able to hang with Luke coming out of those turns. I don't want 100mph, just a similar 0-60mph. :mrgreen:

Hopefully Hubmonster HE passes my testing, so I can let you guys in on the action too. Don't worry, this will happen quickly, because unlike the Mini-Monster this doesn't have the 2 speed switching mechanism to test for durability.

I'll keep you guys up to date as I unleash the beast.

John
Last edited by John in CR on Aug 11 2012 1:10pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The hubmotor bar just got raised....a lot

Post by John in CR » Jul 11 2012 7:49pm

6 phase wires, hall bundle, and a wire for the built in thermal sensor. I hope the wire color coding is correct. 3 phase motors are simple enough to figure out blindfolded. This wouldn't be.
Hubmonster HE pic wire side sml.JPG
Hubmonster HE pic wire side sml.JPG (36.67 KiB) Viewed 6376 times
This is what it looks like in the 13" scooter rim. No worries about that brake mount breaking off.
Hubmonster HE pic in rim brake side sml.JPG
Hubmonster HE pic in rim brake side sml.JPG (50.41 KiB) Viewed 6376 times
Hubmonster HE pic in rim wire side sml.JPG
Hubmonster HE pic in rim wire side sml.JPG (41.89 KiB) Viewed 6376 times
This is what axle flats are supposed to be like on a hubbie run at high power. 15.5mm between the flats cut into a 1" axle
Hubmonster HE pic of axle flat 15.5mm sml.JPG
Hubmonster HE pic of axle flat 15.5mm sml.JPG (40.58 KiB) Viewed 6376 times
Last edited by John in CR on Jul 15 2012 7:53am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The hubmotor bar just got raised....a lot

Post by Hyena » Jul 11 2012 8:22pm

You forgot an important detail - the rim size. Can this be laced into larger moto rim ? 16-19" (or 20-24" bicycle rim)
Everyone loves a big, beefy motor but few of us here can actually make use of little cast scooter wheels (without wearing makeup, a red nose and big shoes while riding :P )

Is there a matching 6 phase controller available ? Or is it switching the pair of 3 phases ?
Looking around for beefy motors myself I've seen some of these big scooter hubs are also available in 5 phase, which I would think would necessitate a dedicated controller.
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Re: The hubmotor bar just got raised....a lot

Post by John in CR » Jul 11 2012 11:27pm

Hyena,

Yes, there are several models of matching controllers, and I've got someone who says he's got an even cheaper higher power solution.

Regarding the wheel, you should know by now the smaller the wheel the better a hubbie performs. The 12 bolt flange is for a 13" scooter rim, and it seems like modding to create a second spoke flange wouldn't be difficult, but why introduce the lacing, truing, and broken spoke issues?

You be the judge, but AFAIC the bike wheel looks like a wheel for a little kids bike in comparison. If you're talking about for trail riding, a mid-drive solution is the correct answer anyway, not a hubbie. Here's my mounted wheel that cost a whole $2 to mount a tire that's puncture proof compared to a bike tire and never needs truing, next to a 20" bicycle wheel. Keep in mind that I went with the lowest profile tire I saw, a 130/60-13, to keep the diameter as small as possible, but scooter wheels are available with larger diameter.
Hubmonster HE wheel next to a 20 a.JPG
Hubmonster HE wheel next to a 20 a.JPG (39.2 KiB) Viewed 6964 times
Hubmonster HE wheel next to a 20 b.JPG
Hubmonster HE wheel next to a 20 b.JPG (26.59 KiB) Viewed 6964 times

.

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Re: The hubmotor bar just got raised....a lot

Post by ElectroSurf3r » Jul 12 2012 12:12am

:shock: The weight quote was right?!!

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Re: The hubmotor bar just got raised....a lot

Post by Hyena » Jul 12 2012 12:19am

John in CR wrote:the smaller the wheel the better a hubbie performs. The 12 bolt flange is for a 13" scooter rim, and it seems like modding to create a second spoke flange wouldn't be difficult, but why introduce the lacing, truing, and broken spoke issues?
Yeah smaller size is ideal but it's not practical to run such a small wheel for general ebike application. It doesn't look too bad next to the 20" wheel though, should make for a killer BMX! People like doing jumps and stunts on BMXs, this one will do a back flip on the spot :lol:

What happened to the old motors you were playing with, in the laced moto wheels ? Too inefficient in the larger wheel?
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Re: The hubmotor bar just got raised....a lot

Post by John in CR » Jul 12 2012 12:37am

Hyena wrote:What happened to the old motors you were playing with, in the laced moto wheels ? Too inefficient in the larger wheel?
I lost interest in old tech motors a while ago. Hubmonster is cool only because it's wound with an 8ga bundle of magnet wire on each turn, so I can jam as much current into it as controller I'm willing to buy will deliver. My old motors work fine in the 14" rims which work out to about a 20" wheel. The 2 remaining NIB that I have are laced in 17" moto rims, so they'll eventually make it on a 2wd or a leaning delta trike.

The bottom line is that those who really want performance will accept the smaller wheel required, just like if cars ran far better with 12" diameter tires, you bet your ass 12" tires would be the style. Ebikes are still too heavily influenced by cyclists for real change but it will come. That is unless a high power geared hubbie becomes available.

Once you get a taste of extreme performance you'll forget about needing 26" wheels and E-BMX's

John

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Re: The hubmotor bar just got raised....a lot

Post by bzhwindtalker » Jul 12 2012 4:29am

So we now have a cheap brushless that will compete with an agni when in a mid drive configuration. I would like to try one or two of these in a race bike at 150v...

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Re: The hubmotor bar just got raised....a lot

Post by spinningmagnets » Jul 12 2012 9:55am

Heres a $300 2-speed transmission made for a 50cc gasoline 2-stroke engine. It might be too light-duty for this (perhaps OK @ only 48V?), but there may be options if we look. I agree this is an awesome non-hub motor candidate...

http://www.extremescooters.biz/evo-2-sp ... ssion.aspx

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Re: The hubmotor bar just got raised....a lot

Post by gensem » Jul 12 2012 10:15am

and John attacks again... :)
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Re: The hubmotor bar just got raised....a lot

Post by MadRhino » Jul 12 2012 10:35am

That is exciting news. A hub that could compete with most high power mid drives out there, that would make my Fatboy an awesome street build.

I have to agree with Hyena, about the need to mount a larger wheel. I really don't like riding a wheel that is smaller than a 17" motorcycle, so that would be the ideal size for me if you end up making this motor available. Cast wouldn't be a major issue, but I'd definitely prefer to lace.
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Re: The hubmotor bar just got raised....a lot

Post by John in CR » Jul 12 2012 4:35pm

bzhwindtalker wrote:So we now have a cheap brushless that will compete with an agni when in a mid drive configuration. I would like to try one or two of these in a race bike at 150v...
I love that enthusiasm, but I haven't even run this thing yet.

I understand the draw of more is better, but think about how much power you actually can put to use to the pavement on those tight courses. Luke's not using anywhere near his system's power potential even using a forward CG, which I think may have gotten him slaughtered in the curves in the last race by a bike with far lower power. On my SuperV I have a pretty low and forward CG and my 250lbs can't really put my 30kw peak input to use.

At your size much more than 20kw is probably wasted weight, and I think the Mini-Monster may be a better choice due to the smaller size and weight, plus only 3 phases of high performance controller will be easier. It would be more work though. Just bolt a sprocket on the disc brake mount and bolt in into dropout-like motor mounts and you're ready for a chain or belt.

John

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Re: The hubmotor bar just got raised....a lot

Post by John in CR » Jul 12 2012 5:09pm

MadRhino wrote:That is exciting news. A hub that could compete with most high power mid drives out there, that would make my Fatboy an awesome street build.

I have to agree with Hyena, about the need to mount a larger wheel. I really don't like riding a wheel that is smaller than a 17" motorcycle, so that would be the ideal size for me if you end up making this motor available. Cast wouldn't be a major issue, but I'd definitely prefer to lace.
I understand the desire for a larger wheel for handling, ride and maybe looks, but it's a performance compromise for any DD hubbie, regardless of how it's wound. As long as your max rpm isn't already at the practical limit of the stator iron, then a smaller wheel and increasing voltage to achieve the desired max speed is always better in terms of motor performance. Don't you want the most out of the extra weight in your wheel?

Bzhwindtalker got me thinking about just how easy this would be to implement as a mid-drive, and unfortunately this isn't a drop in replacement for Hubmonster on my SuperV. Hubmonster HE's flats are 15.5mm vs the 14mm, so making it fit is an irreversible mod. Decisions decisions. My trusty old girl Blue, my cargo bike, has been promised a performance boost for a very long, so that might be a good permanent home for Hubmonster, and the programmable SteveO controller make it tunable for guest riders. hmmm

John

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Re: The hubmotor bar just got raised....a lot

Post by bzhwindtalker » Jul 13 2012 9:39am

When I said race bike, I was talking of a 250cc race built bike chassis :) anything that needs moped tires to work at his full is not a bike (bicycle) anymore to me. But you are probably right, one of your mini-monsters in a mid drive would be plenty for most!

Edit, one of the big une's mid driven fed 150v 300a in this chassis = bang
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Re: The hubmotor bar just got raised....a lot

Post by John in CR » Jul 13 2012 10:05pm

How much does one of those weigh without the motor and other weight that is gasser only? What max speed are you talking about?

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Re: The hubmotor bar just got raised....a lot

Post by liveforphysics » Jul 13 2012 10:56pm

They are 304lbs with engine/tranny/etc, and that engine is such a tiny light weight 1cyl engine, you could probably throw the engine tranny assembly up at a basketball hoop, make a basket, and catch it. lol
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Re: The hubmotor bar just got raised....a lot

Post by fizzit » Jul 14 2012 12:24am

Hmmm I would say that the hub motor bar has stayed at a permanent height for quite a while :P

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Re: The hubmotor bar just got raised....a lot

Post by bzhwindtalker » Jul 14 2012 5:27am

I did not know the Yam was that heavy. A Aprilla rs 50 would probably be more suited for this with a dry weigth of 90kg. But you are rigth there is not much weigth to remove with loosing the ICE on those bikes...

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Re: The hubmotor bar just got raised....a lot

Post by Arlo1 » Jul 14 2012 9:12am

liveforphysics wrote:They are 304lbs with engine/tranny/etc, and that engine is such a tiny light weight 1cyl engine, you could probably throw the engine tranny assembly up at a basketball hoop, make a basket, and catch it. lol
The engine will proly be 15-20 lbs It would be a very close weight to a CRF150R motor. But you also get to remove the cooling system and the fuel and fuel system, which will be ~ another 10-15 lbs. In my experience if you convert a ICE motorcycle to electric you will have the weight of the batteries to add to the original weight. I know its a vague way of putting it because some motors are way lighter then others but its a good way to get an idea of what you are looking at!
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Re: The hubmotor bar just got raised....a lot

Post by John in CR » Jul 14 2012 12:38pm

That's what I figured, and is why Luke uses as few parts of a moto as possible. I believe this motor is capable of some great performance, just keep the bike light and don't get carried away with the gearing.

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Re: The hubmotor bar just got raised....a lot

Post by MadRhino » Jul 14 2012 12:48pm

Mounting it on a motorcycle cuts most of the fun. Riding 20Kw on a 75 pounds bike is freaking fun, far better thrill than 40Kw on a motorcycle. I like having a bike that no one can ride before the experience of doing a back flip at first take off :mrgreen:
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Re: The hubmotor bar just got raised....a lot

Post by John in CR » Jul 15 2012 6:22am

No one said anything about biggest. Shoot, by that metric this motor doesn't surpass an X54xx. With Hubmonster HE having less weight in a more compact size, about half the % loss to heat, and double the power rating I don't think it's close. 8)

John
fizzit wrote:Hmmm I would say that the hub motor bar has stayed at a permanent height for quite a while :P

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Re: The hubmotor bar just got raised....a lot

Post by John in CR » Jul 15 2012 7:34am

To get a sens of scale here's my Hubmonster HE next to an X5304 in a 24" wheel. Note that I also put some pics up in the 2nd post:
Hubmonster HE pic next to an x5304 side sml.JPG
Hubmonster HE pic next to an x5304 side sml.JPG (45.14 KiB) Viewed 5347 times
Hubmonster HE pic next to an X5304 inline sml.JPG
Hubmonster HE pic next to an X5304 inline sml.JPG (23.85 KiB) Viewed 5347 times

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Re: The hubmotor bar just got raised....a lot

Post by fractal » Jul 16 2012 7:40pm

john, are there a lot of different options with bolt on rims? like diameter, width, ...etc. if so, could these rims fit on those 2 motors you have : the hubmonster HE and the mini monster?
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Re: The hubmotor bar just got raised....a lot

Post by John in CR » Jul 16 2012 8:26pm

fractal wrote:john, are there a lot of different options with bolt on rims? like diameter, width, ...etc. if so, could these rims fit on those 2 motors you have : the hubmonster HE and the mini monster?
The factory makes motors for scooters that their vertically integrated company sells, so one motor one rim and they're not interchangeable between motors as the motors and wheels are quite different sizes, 13" and 10". The DIY options are endless and whatever someone wants to try, though the larger the wheel diameter the lower the performance just like with any hubmotor. Anyone who can fit these motors to a bike also has the capacity to do their own rim or their own spoke flanges. Me, I like the easy route, and anyway I like the wide aggressive look of the wide tires available for 13" scooter rims which typically end up a wheel over 19" in OD and over 5" wide.

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