Over 65mph on 20s see pg 4

It's alive! I'm tickled pink that I was right to take a chance and order without the factory controller. The motor is wound as 2 consecutive 3 phase motors, simply with the timing and hall sensors one tooth different. That has a lot of benefits, including the potential for extreme power using 2 small economical controllers, a high and low regen force (or 3 different by using 2 different regen force settings on the controllers). The motor works fine with one controller or both, so if I blow a controller I can still hobble home on one after disconnecting the other. It also means smoother quieter startup.

I'm going to run it in stock form at first using a pair of 18 fet controllers each cruising along easily at 75A peak. Later I'll ventilate the motor and go to a pair of 24fets for 48fets of 4110 goodness and get extreme with her, but a solid 11kw right out of the gate on just 20s should be fun, especially when the extra efficiency alone means at least 1kw more at the wheel for free. :mrgreen:

Now that I figured out the 10 hall wires and proved 2 controllers runs it, I just have to get it on a bike. :mrgreen:

John
 
Is it pouring rain at your place ?? Will this thing be rideable, tomorrow ?? :roll:
 
Ha, I just noticed, the motor im building looks very similar in dimensions to Hubmonster HE. 175x80mm stator, 18 teeth and 16 mags?

2012-07-17180322.jpg
 
We got 30min of rain yesterday, just cloudy and cool today...perfect for working.

I'm deciding whether to try to mount it right now. I hate to take Blue or SuperV out of commission, but SuperV is the obvious choice. All I have to do is take Hubmonster off, open the clamping dropout spacing by 1.5mm, mount Hubmonster HE, mount the controllers and wire it up. Same bike same batteries same errand running, and I'll be able to see the reduction in wh/mile immediately, because I know what Hubmonster uses.

I'm just apprehensive about taking a working bike down, especially the funnest one I've built so far that's in pretty close to salable form with interested buyers. I've got another SuperV with a clean paint job, and I already have a steel swingarm pivot make, so it's just a matter of a bit of steel work, and Hubmonster can have a new home taking advantage of what I learned on the first one.

I guess I should just go for it and hope it's ready tomorrow. If not I'm stuck riding Clown, because my ex-buddy machine shop guy screwed me with off center sprockets for my mid-drive as you will see.

John
 
Hi John in CR,
i'm also looking for some realy powerfull hubmotors. Hope you can answer me some questions about your hubmonster HE.

1. drop-out dimensions for your custom swingarm of your old hubmonster + exact axle dimensions? (axle mounting width, total axle length, axle diameter, stator width) :?:

2. drop-out dimensions for your (new to build) custom swingarm of your new hubmonster He and maybe alo the exact dimensions of the Hubmonster HE (motor diameter, axle diameter, stator width, mounting width of axle, total axle length) :?:


John in CR said:
fractal said:
john, are there a lot of different options with bolt on rims? like diameter, width, ...etc. if so, could these rims fit on those 2 motors you have : the hubmonster HE and the mini monster?
Click to expand...

The factory makes motors for scooters that their vertically integrated company sells, so one motor one rim and they're not interchangeable between motors as the motors and wheels are quite different sizes, 13" and 10". The DIY options are endless and whatever someone wants to try, though the larger the wheel diameter the lower the performance just like with any hubmotor. Anyone who can fit these motors to a bike also has the capacity to do their own rim or their own spoke flanges. Me, I like the easy route, and anyway I like the wide aggressive look of the wide tires available for 13" scooter rims which typically end up a wheel over 19" in OD and over 5" wide.
Click to expand...

3. Where did you bought the hubmoster HE exactly and who is the manufacturer?

Motor looks like one of this ones with 5KW. http://www.eco-wheelz.com/catalog/xtreme-xm5000li-electric-moped-p-151.php

4. Is your hubmonster HE a 6KW motor?

When i was looking for powerfull hubmotors, i found some realy interesting motors up to 10KW power!!!!! :twisted: :D Maybe it's also interesting for you?

http://yzkg.en.alibaba.com/product/231316199-201032128/6_10KW_electric_motor_motorcycle.html Hubmonster HE-style 10KW :twisted: Manufacturer: http://www.evmotor.net/kg/eng/ProductShow.asp?ClassID=6&ID=102

http://yzkg.en.alibaba.com/product/279191706-201032128/2012_new_84V8KW13_BLDC_hub_motor.html?tracelog=cgsotherproduct1 8KW, 10KW+12" Manufacturer: http://www.evmotor.net/kg/eng/ProductShow.asp?ClassID=4&ID=108

http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/121359121/8000w_13inch_Hub_Motor_for_E.html 8KW old style motor even 10KW on Manuf-site!!! Manufacturer: http://www.evmotor.net/kg/eng/ProductShow.asp?ClassID=6&ID=103

http://yzkg.en.alibaba.com/product/419738683-201032134/4_7KW_DC_spoke_brushlesse_eceltric_motor.html?tracelog=cgsotherproduct1 7KW laced with spokes zo a motorcycle rim ( maybe interesting for Hyena :p )


I found a source to buy for the 8KW old style hubmonster motor, but no source exept alibaba for the new hubmonster HE style motor.
http://www.aliexpress.com/product-fm/518407873-8000W-13inch-Brushless-Hub-Motor-for-electric-scooter-motorcycle-wholesalers.html

Does somebody know, how to buy on alibaba in smal quantities? :?: Thanks for answers.
 
John, that motor look interesting.

I see the diameter is smaller than an X5.

I wonder what it look like inside it ? :D

Could you open it and take few pics of the magnets and stator?

Why 6 phase wire ? are they not linked in delta or star? so you have choice? or are they just dual parallel wire per phase?

Doc
 
Doctorbass said:
John, that motor look interesting.

I see the diameter is smaller than an X5.

I wonder what it look like inside it ? :D

Could you open it and take few pics of the magnets and stator?

Why 6 phase wire ? are they not linked in delta or star? so you have choice? or are they just dual parallel wire per phase?

Doc
Click to expand...

No, the motor has 6 phases, that's why it has 6 phase wires. I've seen pics of the stator, and it has 24 slots, and I believe 20 magnets. From what I can tell measuring the outside and comparing to other motors from the same factory, the stator is 175mm in diameter and 60mm long. Like I said in the first post, I'm running it stock first, and I'll take pics when I open it up only once for mods. Motors should be disassembled as seldom as possible, because the edges of the stator laminations scrape the magnets each time, which messes up the nickle plating on the magnets and can create shorts between laminations leading to greater iron losses and a less efficient motor.

Resist your urges to compare this motor to an X anything, because this motor is in a different class. :mrgreen:

John
 
John in CR said:
Resist your urges to compare this motor to an X anything, because this motor is in a different class. :mrgreen:

John
Click to expand...



i'm impatient to see your results :wink:

Doc
 
Doctorbass said:
John in CR said:
Resist your urges to compare this motor to an X anything, because this motor is in a different class. :mrgreen:

John
Click to expand...



i'm impatient to see your results :wink:

Doc
Click to expand...

How many months have you had that X54xx? I got this motor last week, so whose results are overdue? :wink:
 
sharadona said:
Hi John in CR,
i'm also looking for some realy powerfull hubmotors. Hope you can answer me some questions about your hubmonster HE.

1. drop-out dimensions for your custom swingarm of your old hubmonster + exact axle dimensions? (axle mounting width, total axle length, axle diameter, stator width)

2. drop-out dimensions for your (new to build) custom swingarm of your new hubmonster He and maybe alo the exact dimensions of the Hubmonster HE (motor diameter, axle diameter, stator width, mounting width of axle, total axle length)


John in CR said:
fractal said:
john, are there a lot of different options with bolt on rims? like diameter, width, ...etc. if so, could these rims fit on those 2 motors you have : the hubmonster HE and the mini monster?
Click to expand...

The factory makes motors for scooters that their vertically integrated company sells, so one motor one rim and they're not interchangeable between motors as the motors and wheels are quite different sizes, 13" and 10". The DIY options are endless and whatever someone wants to try, though the larger the wheel diameter the lower the performance just like with any hubmotor. Anyone who can fit these motors to a bike also has the capacity to do their own rim or their own spoke flanges. Me, I like the easy route, and anyway I like the wide aggressive look of the wide tires available for 13" scooter rims which typically end up a wheel over 19" in OD and over 5" wide.
Click to expand...

3. Where did you bought the hubmoster HE exactly and who is the manufacturer?

Motor looks like one of this ones with 5KW. http://www.eco-wheelz.com/catalog/xtreme-xm5000li-electric-moped-p-151.php

4. Is your hubmonster HE a 6KW motor?

When i was looking for powerfull hubmotors, i found some realy interesting motors up to 10KW power!!!!! :twisted: :D Maybe it's also interesting for you?

http://yzkg.en.alibaba.com/product/231316199-201032128/6_10KW_electric_motor_motorcycle.html Hubmonster HE-style 10KW :twisted: Manufacturer: http://www.evmotor.net/kg/eng/ProductShow.asp?ClassID=6&ID=102

http://yzkg.en.alibaba.com/product/279191706-201032128/2012_new_84V8KW13_BLDC_hub_motor.html?tracelog=cgsotherproduct1 8KW, 10KW+12" Manufacturer: http://www.evmotor.net/kg/eng/ProductShow.asp?ClassID=4&ID=108

http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/121359121/8000w_13inch_Hub_Motor_for_E.html 8KW old style motor even 10KW on Manuf-site!!! Manufacturer: http://www.evmotor.net/kg/eng/ProductShow.asp?ClassID=6&ID=103

http://yzkg.en.alibaba.com/product/419738683-201032134/4_7KW_DC_spoke_brushlesse_eceltric_motor.html?tracelog=cgsotherproduct1 7KW laced with spokes zo a motorcycle rim ( maybe interesting for Hyena :p )


I found a source to buy for the 8KW old style hubmonster motor, but no source exept alibaba for the new hubmonster HE style motor.
http://www.aliexpress.com/product-fm/518407873-8000W-13inch-Brushless-Hub-Motor-for-electric-scooter-motorcycle-wholesalers.html

Does somebody know, how to buy on alibaba in smal quantities? :?: Thanks for answers.
Click to expand...

interesting finds, some of those motors are the sort of things john is onto by the look of it, i think kelly have some similar (10-20kg) motors to these also,
but it will be interesting to see if you get any answers here as to where we can check this particular motor out, and its actual specs to work out the efficiency and the price etc etc.
im afraid thats not quite how john rolls though, you have to wait for the 'official magic finger test' so that everything can be scientifically validated and its 94.6% :shock: efficiency confirmed, and no, you cant check them out its a secret chinese factory that only john can buy from.. :mrgreen:
 
Toolman,

Why don't you buy a few of the motors in those links and report back to us with the results. I've even shown everyone how it's possible to run one of those motors at pretty extreme power including the exact mods required for the motor to survive at those extreme powers.

If you want to be a beta tester, which means figuring out the correct wiring with 6 phase wires and 8 halls, send me a PM and I'll get you fixed up. Keep in mind you'll be on your own when you motor gets selected for security scrutiny and some idiot opens the hub cover and doesn't replace it for the remainder of transit like what happened with one of our recent test motors. Believe me when I say receiving a motor left open while DHL torture tests the packaging throughout transit isn't a pretty sight. Hubbies really need that second bearing support while in transit.

John
 
John in CR said:
Toolman,

Why don't you buy a few of the motors in those links and report back to us with the results. I've even shown everyone how it's possible to run one of those motors at pretty extreme power including the exact odds required for the motor to survive at those extreme powers.

If you want to be a beta tester, which means figuring out the correct wiring with 6 phase wires and 8 halls, send me a PM and I'll get you fixed up.
John
Click to expand...

yes, thats what ive done with the first magic pie to make it to oz when they were first released a good few years ago (before anyone else liked them) myself, splinteroz and zappy have measured, compared, dyno tested (tested with and without fan cooling)with actual output power measurements, specs on exact kv and resistance, and links to where we got them from. -same thing a while ago with the colossus and burties timing adjuster, and currently going through the same process after setting up a dyno with a ca120 rc motor, again providing any info the punters are after.

anyway apologies for being a bit harsh earlier, but its really hard for other people to get solid data from 'it stays pretty cool up hills' etc. so i and others would be keen for some info on phase resistance no load draw and kv?

and also curious about how the twin windings are done, as i once spent quite a while trying to get an electrically isolated 2nd set of windings to work (2 controllers) but they still interfered with each other somehow magnetically or something? could be a good thing on controllers if it works though.
 
Yesterday, I was helping John solder up phase leads for that HE motor. He was doing the controller leads. Let me tell you, there is spaghetti like wiring needed to be done. Looked like a rats nest when I first saw how it was hooked up. All wires John had put had code marking on them, so he could remember where each wire went.

Having been at John's house twice now, and exposed to any and all info, i still wait for his testing results, before I put money on the table.

Y'all really don't realize the hills we have to contend with, here. John is not a techy type. He carefully thinks, checks twice, and makes connections VERY carefully, to figure out this new motor wiring. He's a hammer and chisel type, like some of the rest of us, around here. :roll: :lol:

We also had to modify the drop outs on "Super V". This new motor axle is 4MM larger than his original "hubmonster". Yet, the motor is smaller in diameter. It's DEFINITELY gonna haul ass. 8) 8)

He is definitely worth waiting for, and, buying one off motors is difficult, from most Chinese sellers.

Just my dos colones. :lol:
 
Toolman2,

All that info is great if you have the tools, but it's mostly unnecessary. If this was a $75-80 wholesale motor like the original MagPie, I'd just send you one since you have the means to obtain the interesting though not really necessary info. I'm just not in a position to be able to do that with close to a $1000 worth of equipment once you add in shipping and controller.

Regarding temperatures, we'll just have to agree to disagree. These motors have the 95° thermistor already wired in, so that's going to have to be good enough. ie I push the motors exactly how I demonstrate in real world use with much greater than typical loads. None of my motors ever get to the kinds of temperatures others regularly push, and exact temps can be very misleading anyway since small changes in conditions can have very different results. When my fat ass goes blasting up a 6km climb braking into every turn and accelerating hard out of each with the top 2km being the steepest averaging almost a 20% grade, and the motor is only 37°C at the top with low 20's ambient, then that real world test trumps any measured data. Even I was impressed and surprised at how well my cooling approach worked, and the exact temperature is unimportant. It would have been impressive at 80°, which I would have considered hot.

If you're going to all that trouble to get data on motors, then something you need to add to the list is at what current does saturation start. That and Kv are the 2 most important pieces of data we can have if we're going to push motors hard. Hubmonster HE have a Kv of 16 btw, which I think I put in the initial post.

John

toolman2 said:
John in CR said:
Toolman,

Why don't you buy a few of the motors in those links and report back to us with the results. I've even shown everyone how it's possible to run one of those motors at pretty extreme power including the exact odds required for the motor to survive at those extreme powers.

If you want to be a beta tester, which means figuring out the correct wiring with 6 phase wires and 8 halls, send me a PM and I'll get you fixed up.
John
Click to expand...

yes, thats what ive done with the first magic pie to make it to oz when they were first released a good few years ago (before anyone else liked them) myself, splinteroz and zappy have measured, compared, dyno tested (tested with and without fan cooling)with actual output power measurements, specs on exact kv and resistance, and links to where we got them from. -same thing a while ago with the colossus and burties timing adjuster, and currently going through the same process after setting up a dyno with a ca120 rc motor, again providing any info the punters are after.

anyway apologies for being a bit harsh earlier, but its really hard for other people to get solid data from 'it stays pretty cool up hills' etc. so i and others would be keen for some info on phase resistance no load draw and kv?

and also curious about how the twin windings are done, as i once spent quite a while trying to get an electrically isolated 2nd set of windings to work (2 controllers) but they still interfered with each other somehow magnetically or something? could be a good thing on controllers if it works though.
Click to expand...
 
i believe getting some verifiable info on your motors moves beyond 'interesting' towards 'necessary' when you make the claims you do.

come on john, it would only take a few minuets and a multimeter..
 
toolman2 said:
i believe getting some verifiable info on your motors moves beyond 'interesting' towards 'necessary' when you make the claims you do.

come on john, it would only take a few minuets and a multimeter..
Click to expand...

Which claims are you talking about exactly? I haven't even run this motor under load yet? I just got it mounted and I'm finishing up the wiring, so I certainly haven't made any claims. I passed along the manufacturers claims, which I intend to test, though I have confidence that their efficiency is significantly higher typical hubbies, since their other motor proved so over 5 months of testing.

If you're talking about Hubmonster, you're got MagPie's and know what they're capable of, so imagine what over 2.5 times the stator width could do. Regarding the ventilation approach we did a video of the climb running 16kw peak at the time, and if you think I can't measure 37°C with high accuracy using my hand then you must not have kids. The stator couldn't have been much warmer since I couldn't detect any warm air rising from the vents like happens when I do get the motor warm now that I've doubled the current limits.

Let me know what "claims" you doubt and I'll consider demonstrating proof. Once I do though, I expect to not be questioned again. I don't make anything up, and I'm careful to err on the side of conservatism, because I see plenty of people throw numbers around on the forum that are obviously overstated or extremely misleading because of the lack of context, yet they aren't brought to task. That's fine I don't mind being held to a higher standard. Once I do, all I ask in return is that you strap enough weight in a backpack and/or on your bike to get the total load up to 360lbs and go hit some hills, so you appreciate the context, and understand why I push for more power and spend significant money searching for the best hubmotors as my contribution to the cause.

John
 
Honestly I'm a tad skeptical on how effective your cooling approach is. Keeping hubs up to speed and above 10- 20mph most of the time won't cause much heat to really see how effective yor cooling is, especially with a huge motor with tons of thermal mass and a small wheel. I wish you shared more hard data on all of your findings.. And seriously opening a motor and letting the magnets rub the lams probably has so negligible a difference it's laughable you even mentioned it. It makes it less exciting for us all after an exciting thread title to have fewer facts...

Also, accelerating hard out of corners means different things to different riders, and knowing that u have measurement devices properly calibrated is always helpful...

I like what you are doing but sometimes we don't know what to think.
 
hillzofvalp said:
Honestly I'm a tad skeptical on how effective your cooling approach is. Keeping hubs up to speed and above 10- 20mph most of the time won't cause much heat to really see how effective yor cooling is, especially with a huge motor with tons of thermal mass and a small wheel. I wish you shared more hard data on all of your findings.. And seriously opening a motor and letting the magnets rub the lams probably has so negligible a difference it's laughable you even mentioned it. It makes it less exciting for us all after an exciting thread title to have fewer facts...

Also, accelerating hard out of corners means different things to different riders, and knowing that u have measurement devices properly calibrated is always helpful...

I like what you are doing but sometimes we don't know what to think.
Click to expand...

the cooling approach is something i have tested, with 4 little 50mm fans zappy and i put in a pie gave it around 35NM over 24NM continuous max output on a dyno at low speed, so its helpful but needed more air, at higher speed like 70kph (riding the bike) the fans were of no use and the wind was doing the work (with no change at all to our 130deg c winding temps)
then zappy made some big vanes on the inside of the sideplates (that do look very similar to johns :mrgreen: ) and spinning it up on a lathe at 70kph (equiv) had waay more cooling flow than the fans, and may get us to nearly 40NM continuous, so for john at high speed with a small wheel it is going to be very effective.

also it seems that hubs like to be vented anyway to reduce corrosion, seems odd it took us this long for drilled sideplates to be considered normal when car alternators have allways been open to the elements and have a fan..
 
Finally, a dead silent hubbie!!!....even on take-off. 6 Phase is definitely where it's at. I've got an out of round tire issue and I gotta get regen going before I can really test performance. Silent smooth and strong is it for now. I can't wait to get my 48 fets of goodness, and get her ventilated, so I can really see what she'll do. I get pics of her guts so DocBass can see what a top quality stator is like. :mrgreen:

While she's fine at the 9kw limit I'm running, despite being significantly more efficient I'll need to ventilate to go to significantly higher power. That's because the smaller motor shell means less surface area than a big diameter motor like Hubmonster, and surface area and temperature are the primary components to determine how much heat can be dissipated.

John
 
The high efficiency is definitely real. I'm riding faster to ensure I don't unintentionally influence the test to achieve the expected result and I'm getting over 10% lower consumption, and that's without regen that nets me a consistent 11-16% recovery in my normal riding!.

Time to wrap up regen and get a real comparison tomorrow with the same 35 mile ride I did 2 weeks ago. Assuming I don't trip the 95°C thermistor on the stator with tomorrow's long ascents, I'll bump power limits up by 50% and see how it handles 13kw in stock form. Phase wires haven't even heated up so far, so I think it may be okay, since tuning Hubmonster taught me that once max power comes into play only during acceleration, which gets shorter and shorter in duration that wh/mile and motor stress don't really change as you increase power limits as long as you stay away from repeated hard launches.

Next purchase is video capability so you guys can see and hear for yourself the silent performance.

My only regret is not buying one of these 9 months ago when I first heard about them, but the 6 phase scared me off thinking I was stuck with factory controllers.

Happy as a clam so far, since it's exceeding my expectations. Hopefully ventilation doesn't introduce a bunch of noise, since it's amplified sonics of all the other motors so far, but amplifying silence is still silent. :lol:

John
 
I finally got a good tire mounted. The original wasn't exactly round and started bouncing above 50mph. I put a helmet on and took it out on the highway, and set myself a new record speed, 65.3mph (105kph). I hit it both directions on the flattest stretch I could find, so it's not wind or gravity aided. BTW, that's with voltage sagging to 75V, so no doubt it will do well over 70mph if I try 24s. I run 20s now. Imagine if I addressed aero and wasn't a 250 walrus perched on an ebike :lol: .

Not bad for a 1530mm circumference tire and moderate voltage.
Hubmonster HE CA from speed run 65mph.jpg

Here's some pics of SuperV in current form, powered by Hubmonster HE, the ebike that bows to no other hubmotored ebike. :mrgreen:
SuperV with Hubmonster HE a.JPG
SuperV with Hubmonster HE b.JPG

This is the view the motos quickly saw after I let them pass before entering the highway, of course minus my fat ass :mrgreen:


As far as testing goes I've been riding it alot with lots of climbs and haven't tripped the built in 95°C thermistor, and that includes some long but moderate 7-8% grades. I want to spend a bit more time before hitting the really steep stuff. 4 words describe this motor, smooth powerful silent and now FAST, and with minutes of sustained WOT in both directions she shows no signs of heating up on the highway at 1150rpm, so she has plenty more to go with higher voltage. It's the low speed stop and go in traffic with plenty of hard takeoffs that heat her up much at all.

Just a few controller issues to work out and she'll be ready for primetime.

John
 
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