Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stuff

oatnet said:

... all the others are front/rear by reversing the tread direction.

Click to expand...

How does that work? It's not just a single direction for rotation if it's directional?

I've had zero success finding moped anything down here. They seem like a good choice, better/stronger/actually tested and rated compared to bike stuff that leaves people with constant flats and broken wheel parts, but without the excess weight and size of moto stuff.

John

John in CR said:

oatnet said:

... all the others are front/rear by reversing the tread direction.

Click to expand...

How does that work? It's not just a single direction for rotation if it's directional?

Click to expand...

Based on what I have read, and this one experience, it is fairly standard for moto/moped tires to be reversed based on placement. The main duty on the rear wheel is accelleration, and the major duty on the front wheel is braking, so the tread/plys are reversed to meet those respective forces.

Can you get stuff from online shippers like amazon.com down there?

-JD

Edit: added pictures.
===================
I had a free hour last week, mounted the 5403 on the bike, and got it spinning with my old Methods 100v100a xlyte controller.

Because other people have had their wiring cut by the white plastic device intended to protect the wires, I modified it before I installed it. I removed the plastic top cover and threw it away, then removed the plastic insert that goes around the axle, and dremeled a slot in it that was a little wider than the wiring channel in the axle. Wiring was still tight because my dropouts are enclosed (no slot), so I dremeled a slot halfway through the dropout. Unfortunately, and despite my best planning and double-checking, I managed to drill the slot pointing up, not down to provide a drip loop. Fortunately we don't get much rain in SoCal, and because of the rear suspension the wiring will flex less if it runs across the top of the triangle, so it worked out.





The flats of the axles were not exactly square; the dropouts fit over the top of the axle, but wouldn't slide all the way down. I filed the axles flat, and they fit with perfect snugness now. Disk clearance to the sidecover is tight, as is clearance between 135mm dropouts, so I can't see how I will fit a disk brake ATM - electric braking it is then. While I ordered spacer washers, it is not possible to fit the 3-speed clusters I bought into 135mm dropouts. I bought a screw-on single speed that should fit, but I haven't installed it yet. I might shoot for 150mm clearance next time.

Pinouts: Wire colors matched up exactly between the 1st gen methods controller, and the 5403:

Mini-XLR hall connector:
Pin . Controller . Motor
1 . Red . Red
2 . Blue . Blue
3 . Green . Brown
4 . Yellow . Yellow
5 . Black . Black

Phase:
Controller . Motor
Blue . Blue
Green . Green
Yellow . Yellow

When I fired up the motor, I was concerned about my pinouts being right because I only saw a no-load speed of 45mph, and the CA is still programmed for a larger 27" hookworm, so the real speed was even slower. I haven't calibrated the CA to this controller, so I am not sure what the no-load amps were. Later I realized the 3-speed switch wasn't even connected, and IIRC I programmed the first two settings to be exteremely low, so that would explain the low no-load RPM. Once it was rotating I immediately saw why JRH said I would need to have the tires remounted - the height of the tire varied as much as 1". So the next step will be to uninstall both wheels and try to find someplace that can install new rim strips and remount the tires.

-JD

I took the wheelset to the local motorcycle store to get the gazelles remounted. After dealing with so many arrogant Local Bike Stores, I wasn't looking forward to it, but the motorcycle store was much more welcoming. One guy recognized it as an ebike motor, and I only felt a little awkward asking them to make sure the 40lb motor didn't tip over and smash off the axle. It turns out the rim strips were torn up and needed to be replaced, as JRH surmised, so $ 81 later, I had functional wheels. (funny note - I hadn't heard of rim tape described as rim strips, so I pictured some motorcycle convention that adhered the bead to the rim).

I had a screw-on freewheel from ebikes.ca, but I think I gave it away. I bought another one on ebay, and after carefully making sure that it was the right diameter to screw on, the spacing of the teeth is wrong. If anyone knows what I should have ordered for standard 7-speed chain from my Tidalforce brakes, I'd really appreciate the tip. So the current freewheel keeps the chain off the side covers, but isn't effective for pedalling.

I got a 3-speed switch from Lyen, and a cruise control. I worked out the 3-speed switch by ohming it out (will post later for my own reference), but I had more trouble wtih the Lyen Cruise control. Worse, when I cut the cord short, I found (2) red wires, and (2) black wires. If anyone knows if whether yellow or white is brake or throttle, and whether I can just hook up both reds and both blacks, I can really use the help.

So right now, everything is wired up and connected except for the cruise control, so here are some pics I grabbed with the last rays of twilight. It is a heavy build, but I can still barely pick it up with one hand, so maybe 100 lbs; that weight comes across as a simply solid build. Interestingly, when I do, it balances right at the A-Line label on the top tube, right over the cranks; the heavy rear wheel and heavy front battery+wheel seem to balance each other out. The Luminator just rocks.

I took it out for a spin but I think the programming I was experimenting with was giving me problems, it had very little power. I have that to play with, plus the whole V3 throttle experience to integrate and experiment with, the rear sprocket, and of course the 3-speed switch to finish before I can label it as complete. It looks very Super-Motard with the smaller wheels, and looks/feels very motorcycle when moving it around; everything is so oversized on this build, it all kinda balances out so you lose that ginormas feeling it gives in person. Although it has extra bits hanging off, I think it looks pretty stealthy.

View attachment 4

Excellent job Oatnet. The bike looks fantastic. 8) Its got a nice balanced look to it even with the big front mount battery box. Nice stealth appearance too. Keeping the triangle open keeps it much more bike like. Once you have the controller sorted, you will have a monster on your hands. Look forward to some video footage.

Thanks Kepler!

Nothing different, similar pictures in different light. I'm in that new-build honeymoon period, where once it comes together I can't stop looking at what I made... :lol:







edit - today these pics are coming up wierd, where pics of the same size came up normal - whatever, if you care, I guess you have to click on them to see them normal size.

I was recently intrigued by a "John in CR" post, quoting mwkeefer's perspective on the batthase relationship on infineons.  I tried it, setting both phase and batt to 100amps, with block time at 1, which I would later turn up until top end started to drop.  I set the three switch speeds to 50%, 75% and 100%.

When I finally buttoned up the bike on Sunday and took it out for its first ride, it had almost no power.  I thought maybe it was the programming, or maybe I needed to pull the heat shrink off the CA connector and unplug it, or maybe the phases were NOT a direct color match... But it was late, and I was just pleased to have everything in place, so I packed it in for the night.

I got some time to play with it again tonight.  Step 1 - set it to speed 1, and unplug the CA.  Whamo, it pulled HARD, so that worked - I had a feeling I was going to have to rewire the CA connector to use the Cycleanalyst V3.  Wearing shorts, I threw on a lightly padded moto jacket, gloves, and my ebike helmet, and took it for a spin.

I took it easy, but at 50% on the speed switch, it lifted the front wheel, 28lb? front battery and all.  When speed started to level off, I backed off the throttle and switched to 75%, rode the feel of the torque for a second then lifted the front wheel, on to 100%, started to feel the wheel come up... 

I remembered that I had been telling myself all along that when I did testing on this, it was going to be in a full face helmet with my heavy moto jacket, and not shorts.  I could feel how this bike could flip me on my back if I buried the throttle with my weight wrong.  Between the heavy torque and the learning curve for grokking the balance of front-mounted packs, this is not a bike you let people around the neighborhood try out - that first ride could be a bitch.  And this is MY first ride.  I sighed, clicked it down to first speed, rolled the throttle on easy and headed home.  It was late, and dark, so  I called it a day.

I am happy to have felt the power of the 5403, and that it exceeded my expectations.  The bike felt balanced,  rock solid, yet with a plush ride - I look forward to getting a better feel for how it handles.

Haha sounds fun! My guess on your freewheel, is you bought a 1/2" x 1/8", when you have a multi speed chain. You need a 1/2" x 3/32" freewheel. With 1.37" x 24 tpi (threads per inch). Pretty awesome bike.

sounds sexy mate!! suit up and give 'er some!

your running 24s too arnt you? can I ask where john was talking about this 1:1 ratio stuff for programming?

and you know what we're all gonna ask for now right? Videos!

Thanks for the kind words, guys!

wildharemtbkr, than you so much, that sounds like the insight I needed. I'll go buy one a 3/32nd.

Snow, that is right, 24s, so 88.8v off the charger, and only 76-80v under load after the fluff charge burns off. I still have a lot to do before I can do a good video - correct sprocket, change the CA plug on my methods controller so I can use the V3, tune the suspension etc - but it will come.

As for the multiplier, this approach was brought to my attention only because John in CR posted the link several times, so thanks John, and thanks keefer for developing/sharing this knowledge:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18675&#p272438

The purpose in the eyes of eBike designers is quite simple... Although some hub motors are really torquey, most just arent... to that end, you need the most torque when launching from a dead stop and so...

An engineer decides what wattage and determines the motor's torque output based on 1355 / No Load KV * Amps... Then depending on the requirements, for instance a max load weight of 300 lbs the engineer needs to find a way to get that mass (the 300lbs of you bike batteries and motor) moving along quickly... though accelleration takes more power, it only needs that power for a short time... hence Block time is supposed to be the delay in seconds before the limiting kicks in and brings you back to the programmed primary current.

Another bit you may or may not have realized is the purpose of Phase Current and why it is different than Primary or Battery Current...

At lower speeds the controller can multiply the current at the cost of voltage which is only needed (the higher voltage) once the motor is trying to gain speed.... That's why people with 9C usually recommend 2.5 X the Primary Current for this setting and it's the current your phase windings are slammed with on startup... the block time allows for a momentary surge of Primary Current to enable the output which is current amplified (the FETs do this) which in a 26" DD 9x7 Rear (Loaded kV of 10.10 @ 48v - load rating 100KG / 220lbs) - these motors don't have enough torque at 45A to get you moving and thus reduce duty cycle and power handling of the FETs, phases and every other component... then when you approach speed... you will see your current taper down because "An object in motion stays in motion unless acted upon by an outside force".

By comparison - I have found that using Phase Current of lower multipliers of Primary Current like 1.5 X will result in higher top end speeds because the voltage sag is less in the current amplification process.

If your using geared hubs... these are the most fun, here I begin at 1:1 with block time at about 5 (I do run 69A limit on a 9FET shunt soldered and reprogrammed infineon with stock fets and caps) - I can't keep the nose down and my top speed reaches 30+ mph where as when I had the Phase Current at 2.5 the max speed was 27mph... Next I increased the multiplier until my top speed on a flat without wind dropped measurably... This gives me the absolute best combo of slamming accelleration, higher top speeds and better efficiency since the motor spends less time at low inefficient speeds.

Click to expand...

The 54xx at 100a has way more launch torque than I need, so I don't need a "block time" period that ignores the limit on current, and instead of tuning it higher I'll leave it set at "1", wishing I could choose "0".

Since phase is restricted to the same 100a as the battery, and I have abundant torque, I have no need to change it to a multiple of battery current to apply more amps to get more torque - if anything, I might reduce amps for both settings. I have not tested to verify that this gives me a few more MPH on the top end, but I respect mwkeefer and I hope it does.

Enough torque ceased to be an issue for me several kw ago, in fact it became more of a driveability issue (its not nice to lend a wheelie machine to your freinds) so if anything I wanted to reduce torque. That is why I have been so critical of the 9kv CroMotor - it supplies way more of something I already have too much of. I could go to a longer wheelbase to keep the nose down, but at a tradeoff of balance, because you are now putting a heavy hub motor at the end of a really long lever in relation to the front wheel. Top speed, then, is the only frontier left for folks like me. 8)

Here is a pic of the slot I cut in the removable dropouts, to make a path for the wire bundle coming out of the motor.

Nice build oatnet, looking very good!

The quotation above on the controllers is from early work in 2010 and contains a mixture of good information and some misunderstandings that have been cleared up since that time, so consider it with care. For example FETs don't amplify current, and phase current limits have zero effect on the maximum speed as they only limit the PWM pulsewidth at very low RPM and have no effect after the current multiplication drops off as the back EMF rises with increasing RPM. The processor has only ONE knob to tweak, and that is the PWM of the drive to the motor (unless they mess with timing and field weakening which is not usually desirable). Motor current drops off due to the increasing back EMF of the motor, it doesn't really see momentum

I do agree that minimizing block time is important on low impedance motors driven by high voltage to protect the FETs as the resulting uncontrolled excessive current can be damaging, and that selecting phase current limits at different ratios can be a good design choice, as there is no magic in 2.5x and it should be based on what the motor and controller can efficiently and safely handle, and considering the drivability issues is an excellent plan. I'm running 60/100 battery/phase amps on my Cromotor and it is very driveable and responsive. My rear tire is wearing quite fast, so it might make sense to reduce the battery current a bit further, though it is fun the way it is, and there is no tendency for the front wheel to leave the ground (though it lifts significantly within the suspension travel).

The problem I found with front mounted batteries is that you need an extra long power lead, and it has to have some good slack for turning. If you do it, I think attaching to a dual crown fork legs is the only way. Attaching to the bars is not a good idea, too far forward.

Here is a video of a quick walk-around:
[youtube]LqsWH9ynbCs[/youtube]

AlanB, thanks for the kind words, detail and background info.

Veloman, you are correct, one does need a long power lead, which is why I used 4ga wire for that run. One can minimize the need for extra slack by crossing the wires under the steerer tube, instead of running them straight down the side of the frame. This way, when you turn the wheel, the wire length stays the same. If you read back in the thread, others have tried a variety of handlebar mounts with success, although I prefer the hard-mount myself. Here is what that cross looks like:


Wildhare, you were absolutely correct about the freewheel - here is a picture of the brass 1/2" x 3/32" and chrome 1/2" x 1/8" - the skinnier teeth fit through the chain. Thanks!

View attachment 2



Also, some more pics of the phase/hall bundle coming out of the dremeled dropouts/plastic cup.





Took it out for some test runs today, got 43mph on the flats in a tuck, 41mph when I stand up. After I got home, I lifted the rear wheel to get a no-load speed of 53.5mph at 79.3v .

I am calling the x5403 a 9.65kv motor. Per my calculator, a 9.65kv motor at 79.3v in a 23.5" wheel will give the 53.47mph unloaded, and an the 80% estimated loaded speed is 42.78mph, right what I saw today. That would give me 86mph if I went to 144v, a little short of the 100mph I would like to reach on this mule. I was hoping for more of an 11.5kv, which would give me 52mph at 72v nominal, and 104mph at 144v, but it is an entertaining ride nonetheless.

I am having problems entering an rshunt value on my CA V3, so I can't calculate WHM etc, but acceleration is brisk to say the least. The V3 tamed down the twitchy throttle, and I set the 3-speed switch 30% 50% 100% so I can launch on 30% to keep it controlled on launch, and quickly switch to 100% for hard accelleration. I am really impressed with the CA V3 and its throttle control capabilities, not to mention the ability to toggle between three presets (Emoto, eMoped, ebike) on the fly. I cruised up steep long hills at 36mph, and the motor/controller were barely warm.

The bike weights 118.6lbs. Sounds like a lot, but consider that it is built with moto rims, tires and the v12 of hubmotors. Here is a breakdown of weight:

40.50 rear wheel
11.40 front wheel
28.50 Battery Pack
36.30 lbs frame/forks/controller/everything else

This sounds like a Cromotor, or pretty close. I'm getting 37 mph at 70 volts with a 3.0 Gazelle 23.5 inch tire.

Alan B said:

This sounds like a Cromotor, or pretty close. I'm getting 37 mph at 70 volts with a 3.0 Gazelle 23.5 inch tire.

Click to expand...

Yep, the Cro ended up at 9.26kv, 9.65kv is a little faster, but short of the 11.5kv that would be my ideal. My 18" wheel with 2.75" gazelles is 23.5" (18+2.75+2.75=23.5) - wouldn't a 3" gazelle on 17" rim be 23" unloaded?

I can't stop watching the walkaround video, I am really pleased with this bike:
[youtube]LqsWH9ynbCs[/youtube]

-JD

It's a great looking bike that is for sure. Id like to see video of you riding it so we could see her in action.

Great work she's a beauty.

Looking great. Weight came up at around the same a Bomber. Same voltage and same motor so it should be able to get 50mph. Are you running 120% on the controller? That will get you over the 50mph if your aren't.

What is the max speed that you can still comfortably pedal at with your gearing setup?

Oh yeah, Pedal... I was so busy trying to just hang on , I'd all but forgotten it even had pedals. :lol: The 16t single speed will make it slow, I need to add a few links to the chain, so I can stretch it over the largest front sprocket and see what I get.

Am I correct in thinking the bomber is a 5405 winding in a 26"-27", I wonder how the "gearing" compares to a taller 5403 in a smaller 23.5" OD wheel. Great tip on the 120% throttle to get 50mph, I'll try that - I knew people had done that on the infineons, but I thought it was to get more amps into the motor, I didn't think it would add to my top end!

Thanks for the good words, ohzee! I do lots of construction pics, so I leave the action sequences to the younger gents.

-JD

116 pounds? Are you sure? My race bike was 121 pounds with lights. 127 with mirrors and fenders and all the other commuter-y stuff. How much battery do you have onboard?

oatnet said:

Alan B said:

This sounds like a Cromotor, or pretty close. I'm getting 37 mph at 70 volts with a 3.0 Gazelle 23.5 inch tire.

Click to expand...

Yep, the Cro ended up at 9.26kv, 9.65kv is a little faster, but short of the 11.5kv that would be my ideal. My 18" wheel with 2.75" gazelles is 23.5" (18+2.75+2.75=23.5) - wouldn't a 3" gazelle on 17" rim be 23" unloaded?

-JD

Click to expand...

I measure 23" now but I've worn off nearly 1/4" already. So not quite 23.5 but more than 23.0. I recall measuring close to 23.5 early on but that was at full pressure, I don't run that much pressure now.

So after all the complaining about the Cromotor the Xlyte is less than 5% different. Would have been an interesting comparison after all.

Farfle said:

116 pounds? Are you sure? My race bike was 121 pounds with lights. 127 with mirrors and fenders and all the other commuter-y stuff. How much battery do you have onboard?

Click to expand...

118.6lbs, and yep I am sure. 8) I have a heavy-duty digital scale that measures up 650lbs with 100% repeatability... I weighed myself on the scale, picked up the bike, and the scale read 118.6 lbs more. However, I see my earlier post I listed "frame and everything else" as 36.3, shoulda been 38.2, guess I subtracted wheels/battery from 118.6 wrong.

Given that your build is LiPo/Outrunner/chain drive, and I am running the massive v12 of hubbies, I am suprised my build is lighter than yours. My battery has 1ah more capacity, 1.265kwh of a123 prisimatics which is a 15% weight penalty over LiPo, I have pedals and a chainline, I used a long run of 4ga cables, where did the weight go in your build? Of course, your bike has a much higher top end, to get there I would need to complete the option to upgrade my controller to a 144v and replace the 72v/16ah a123 pack with 144v/8ah LiPo - which would add a net 6lbs to my build.

These heavy eBikes are giving me flashbacks to 2007, riding an 80lb Tidalforce IO Cruiser with 30-40lb of 2c Cheap Chinese LiFe (best available at the time) - the difference being that the Norco is pulls hard enough to wheelie, does more than 2x the top speed of the TF, and built to go 5x the speed. Here is a breakdown of the parts that I wrote last weekend, when I tried to figure out where the lbs went.

40.50lbs Rear wheel

• 5403 rear motor, custom bearings/halls/12ga/Silver
  18" x 2.75 Michelin Gazelle 96mph speed rated
  18" Moped rim painted black
  11 ga spokes painted black
  Silver nipples (only color sized to fit rim/spoke)
  1/2x3/32 16t single speed freewheel, but wasn't mounted when I weighed it

11.40lbs Front wheel

• DMR "revolver" hub
  18" x 2.75 Michelin Gazelle 96mph speed rated
  18" Moped rim painted black
  13 ga spokes painted black
  Silver nipples (only color sized to fit rim/spoke)
  Disk, but I don't think it was mounted when I weighed it

28.50lbs Battery pack

• 3 x 7.5lb 8s/16ah packs
  4 case,switches, circuit breakers,charger/light wiring/fuses, 4x2 power wires
  1 6x clamps
  1 pair 4ga battery mains with 4x Anderson's
  2x Power switches, Pre-charge resistor around left connector, light plug/fuse

38.20lbs leftover:

• Norco A-Line frame size L, Red "Park" edition
  Magudaman custom aluminum dropouts
  Seatpost: gravity light gap 360 degree adjustable, white to match frame
  Magudaman Custom aluminum 18fet controller to seat post mount
  Methods 100v 100a Regen Controller Infineon eb318
  Boxxer World Cup forks 200mm, white to match frame
  Funn stem - boxxer direct-mount/integrated, black like crown
  On-One Mary Handlebars, special CroMo edition/silver
  Ergon GC-3 L grips
  Avid Elixer 5 Front brake/adaptor/hose/lever
  Fox DHX-RC4 9" x 3" rear shock
  Truvativ crank from S-750
  chain from s-750
  Shimano MD-340 7/8spd derailliur from s-750
  Luminater headlight from ebikes.ca, bought used on E:S,clamp from spares I bought
  3spd switch+wire - from Lyen, painfully home terminated
  Cruise control+wire - from Lyen, painfully home terminated
  Throttle+wire - generic, not sure where I got it
  Ebrake lever+wire+rubber bands - generic, not sure where I got it
  Cycleanalyst V3+mount+wire+throttle output
  Seat from ?????
  Front disk
  Rear freewheel

Alan B said:

So after all the complaining about the Cromotor the Xlyte is less than 5% different. Would have been an interesting comparison after all.

Click to expand...

While that would have been a roughly equivalent comparison :| , the top end is not interesting enough to justify the $12k-$14k it would take to complete such a project. It is too bad the KV of the 5403 wind did not correspond to the KV of the 5303, and it is too bad that the CroMotor was delivered at 9.26kv instead of 13kv, because a comparison of two such motors would have been interesting indeed.

-JD

I really like your bike. I'm tempted to copy it.

You did good!

I guess the a123s are the difference, here is how mine adds up:

29pound motor
55 pound rolling frame
24lb battery
10ish pound controller and heatsink.
8 pounds of wiring etc... lots of 4awg and some 6

Farfle said:

I guess the a123s are the difference, here is how mine adds up:

29pound motor
55 pound rolling frame
24lb battery
10ish pound controller and heatsink.
8 pounds of wiring etc... lots of 4awg and some 6

Click to expand...

That is strange - my 16ah a123 pack weighs 22.5lbs fully configured, 1.5lbs less than your LiPo pack. :? My 28.5 weight includes the pelican case, mounting clamps, switches, circuit breakers, pre-charge circuit, charger wiring, luminator wiring, etc - maybe you were including something similar in your estimate.

The 29lb outrunner is similar in weight to the 54xx, I underestimated the size of it, probably why I thought yours would be lighter. Your controller is also much heavier than mine, about where I expect to end up if I make the jump from 8kw to 20kw.

nicobie said:

I really like your bike. I'm tempted to copy it.
You did good!

Click to expand...

Thanks Nicobie, I hope you do!

Hmm . Ya know, I have a lot of spares from this project - the Green Norco Size L, Boxxer Forks, Fox rear shock, a fully built 54xx wheelset... All great hardware to have around for future projects, but maybe I should sell them off instead and free up space. :? Hmmm.

-JD

*grinds teeth......