Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

I am currently running just over 8 Amps (at 28 volts) through the controller's shunt to a dummy load and watching the forward Ah accumulator. So far everything seems to be working as it should.

But, as I was setting up and verifying my test apparatus I observed again a spurious "regen Ah" figure. "2.0833" it read. I do recall seeing this exact same number yesterday on the "regen Ah" display, so it may be significant. I'm not sure what I did to cause this to appear. Maybe just a transient in the line when I switched on the controller or when I was probing voltages in my circuit with a DVM or when I initially connected the dummy load and saw a small spark. Once I reset the CAV3, the test proceeded (and is currently proceeding) without any observed misbehavior.

I have tried to recreate the condition that led to the error: running the motor, flipping the controller on and off quickly (that also powers down and up the CAV3), disconnecting my dummy load, then reconnecting it with a small spark. Nothing seems to have duplicated the problem yet. But, I remain suspicious that there may be a sensitivity to interference of some sort. Maybe a low-pass filter isn't low enough.

I will run current through the dummy load past the 32 Ah mark where I started noticing problems on my ride yesterday and will report if I observe anything unexpected.

Not applicable to e-bikes, but the thought occurs that a CAv3 could be used as a throttle-by-wire controller for an ICE-assisted bike. Set the CA to RC mode and use a Giant-Scale throttle servo to control the throttle on the engine, and also use the cruise control and speed limits to allow using gear ratios that allow running at less than maximum RPM at maximum legal speed. This would let the engine run in an RPM band that gets better gas mileage than current setups that control max speed by using high numerical ratios and mechanical governors to limit speed. Of course you would need some kind of multi-speed transmission for that to really work...

mrbill said:

I am currently running just over 8 Amps (at 28 volts) through the controller's shunt to a dummy load and watching the forward Ah accumulator. So far everything seems to be working as it should.

But, as I was setting up and verifying my test apparatus I observed again a spurious "regen Ah" figure. "2.0833" it read. I do recall seeing this exact same number yesterday on the "regen Ah" display, so it may be significant. I'm not sure what I did to cause this to appear. Maybe just a transient in the line when I switched on the controller or when I was probing voltages in my circuit with a DVM or when I initially connected the dummy load and saw a small spark. Once I reset the CAV3, the test proceeded (and is currently proceeding) without any observed misbehavior.

I have tried to recreate the condition that led to the error: running the motor, flipping the controller on and off quickly (that also powers down and up the CAV3), disconnecting my dummy load, then reconnecting it with a small spark. Nothing seems to have duplicated the problem yet. But, I remain suspicious that there may be a sensitivity to interference of some sort. Maybe a low-pass filter isn't low enough.

I will run current through the dummy load past the 32 Ah mark where I started noticing problems on my ride yesterday and will report if I observe anything unexpected.

Click to expand...

Hi mrbill,

You may want to check all connectors. Especially if the shunt wires are not connected well, the current readings from the shunt to the CA may be distorted.

hjns said:

You may want to check all connectors. Especially if the shunt wires are not connected well, the current readings from the shunt to the CA may be distorted.

Click to expand...

Hi hjns (and anyone else following this):

I spent the last two days running dummy current through the shunt, watching the CA accumulate Ah. During this test I occasionally spun up the motor, flipped the controller (and CA) low-voltage power switch off and on, disconnected/reconnected my dummy load (creating a small spark each time), and otherwise attempted to trick the CA into misbehaving.

Nothing perturbed it this time. Other than when I initially hooked up my dummy load and saw "2.0833" Ah on the regen. screen, I have not seen other errors like this. I even rolled accumulated Ah past 100, just to make sure that was working properly. It was.

I also disconnected and reconnected the 6-cond. shunt cable. So, maybe that was the problem. Hard to say at this point.

In any case I'll be happy if I've cleared any condition that led to the erroneous readings. But, I'll continue to be vigilant over the next few rides and report back if I discover a recurrence of misbehavior.

OK, I think I've isolated the problem I reported earlier with the stored Ah and wh/mi (but not wh or mi) being reset to zero, and the forward and regen Ah being set to 2.08XX (where XX are some random digits).

The problem occurs when one goes into the SETUP -> CALIBRATION -> Zero Amps, and sets the "zero amps". If you just visit these screens, all is well, but when you actually zero the amps, the stored figures get changed.

I repeated this three times and got the same result, so I think it's a bug (unless it's a "feature" and is really supposed to do this). I do recall on my first ride when I discovered the problem that I had stopped to reset the "zero amps" point, but I did not at the time connect doing so with the changing stored Ah and wh/mi figures.

Can someone else please duplicate the experiment and independently confirm that it's not just my unit that is doing this?

Accumulate some non-zero number of Ah. It only needs to be non-zero, so just spinning the motor on the stand for 20-30 seconds ought to accumulate at least a few hundredths of an Ah. Then go into SETUP -> CALIBRATION -> Zero Amps, then hold the right button until you see the "OK". Then exit Setup mode and check your stored Ah.

Thanks.

It definitely has some sort of issue there. I just did this on mine, which had negative 35Ah (from having been using it to do some recharging tests on stuff), and after doing the Zero Amps, it changed the Ah used to -0.01. :?

AFAIK that shouldn't happen--Zero Amps should only recalibrate the present shunt voltage (current flowing thru the shunt) as the Zero point.

Can someone confirm that I can use the CA V3 to set a max temperature cutoff/rollback, so my MAC motor will not burn up?

el_walto said:

Can someone confirm that I can use the CA V3 to set a max temperature cutoff/rollback, so my MAC motor will not burn up?

Click to expand...

Yes, CA will limit Plim->MaxCurrent linearly 100-0% as the temperature rises in the configured danger range. CA begins to limit the max current at Temp->ThrshTemp and finally reduces the max current to zero at Temp->MaxTemp. Please see the configuration options on the Grin Tech V3 page.

The Limit Flag Display (one left of the main display) will show a capital "T" when temperature limiting is in effect so you can identify the cause of the power loss.


Please see the Advanced Features section of the Setup Notes for a description of supported temperature sensors.

EDIT - Good question - details of this operation have been added to the notes.

For those of you who can read German: there is an operators manual (Bedienungsanleitung ) now available for the Cycle Analyst V3:

http://cycle-analyst.de/Cycle_Analyst_V3_Bedienungsanleitung.html

For all others, just to get a feeling what Justin is up for when he will write the manual ... pages and pages and pages of stuff... :|

There is also an entry point in english language, however, I'm still working on the site, so some dead links do exist:

http://cycle-analyst.de/

Cheers
Reinhard

Inexpensive 12v 3A DC/DC Converter (Candidate for THUN Power on Bikes with Vbatt > 48v)

Back on Jan 1, there was a question about powering the Thun on higher voltage bikes:

teklektik said:

lollandster said:

...to do this I need to cut the 10v supply (white wire) and feed the Thun with 12v from a dc-dc step down converter...
Does anyone know where I can get a small dc-dc converter with input max >84v?

Click to expand...

Not sure of your packaging requirements, but here's an ES thread about re-purposing laptop power supplies. A quick eBay search turns up some 12v candidates for less than $10. The ones for the Asus netbook are only 3A and look nice and small (about 1x1.3x3.34in - 26x35x85mm). This approach gets a waterproof package with easy hookup.

Click to expand...

I ordered up one of the little Asus 3A 12v netbook supplies for $6.49. The Asus-branded unit showed up today and is rated on the housing for 100-240vac. I gave it a quick test on my LiFe pack. It refused to start at 39vdc but at 42vdc it delivered 12.48v open circuit and 12.42v when running a bright 250ma LED truck brake light. It delivered 12.1v driving a 2A incandescent turn signal. Operation was essentially identical at 72vdc.

Anyhow - it's <$10 and a nice tiny unit (1x1.35x3.34in - 26x35x85mm). The Thun X-CELL RT is rated for 7-16vdc with a max current of 20ma so there is more than enough power for the Thun and lots of automotive LED lighting (a trifle low voltage for normal '12v' stuff that really expects 13.5v, but the lighting I tried worked well). This is untried with an actual Thun, but looks like it will do the job.

Be aware that some on eBay are sold without a power cord although matching 3-prong cords are available separately.

Here's a behavioral quirk - I don't think it's intentional:

This behavior is observed on an R/C setup.

I have the [Throttle Out --> Ramp Down] dialed way down. I have it set to 10 on a scale of 0 - 999. This achieved the following desired behavior - when I let go of the throttle, the motor speed drops off quite slowly. That's what I want, and that's what I get. I have my reasons why, if curious just ask.

Here's the strangeness. When I hit the e-brake cutoff, the motor speed drops off just as slowly as if I snap the throttle to zero. These should not necessarily be processed the same way. I would prefer that the motor drop off quickly - as in ""immediately". If I'm hitting the brake, I don't want the brakes to fight the motor.

Is this intentional? Can it be changed, such that e-brake cutoff either has its own ramp-down (I can't imagine why), or such that e-brake cutoff drops throttle output to zero?

For those few running the CA off 12V and using a separate battery voltage input like I am (and I think Hjns is?), a note:

If the 12V isn't steady, like say a turn signal momentarily causes a voltage sag, the throttle output will also dip a teeny bit. Not much, but it's enough to notice "surging" (sagging, really) in sync with the turn signal. The more sag, the worse the problem is.

Thankfully it is a dip in trhottle voltage, not a rise, so it won't cause a power surge from the motor, but it is discomfiting. It's not a big deal on my CrazyBike2 setup with LED turn signals and a 12V 20Ah lighting pack as the sag is tiny, but on my DayGlo Avenger or Delta Tripper which use incandescent turn signals and a much smaller saggier 12V lighting pack (DT) or a DC-DC converter (DGA) that sags a LOT (almost blinks off the headlight during signalling!) I expect it would cause an extremely noticeable throttle surging, at best.


I suspect I can fix it by putting larger capacitors at the CA, for CrazyBIke2, but might require a diode on the input and capacitors after that for the other vehicles. (since I don't yet have the right stuff for really bright LED turn signals on both of them, or sufficiently powerful 12V sources to resist the sag caused by incandescent turn signals, at least in the space avaiable on them).

amberwolf said:

For those few running the CA off 12V and using a separate battery voltage input like I am (and I think Hjns is?),

Click to expand...

Not anymore I am. Some time ago I ran 30S and inquired about the CA accepting that high voltage. Justin answered that the CA can accept that no problem. Therefore, my CAv3 is still hooked on the controller using the DP. Later I moved back to 20S, so no reason to change anything for me.

I did fry a CAv3 when connecting it to the Thun, and then connecting it to the 20S lipo pack. As mentioned several times now in this thread, the CAv3 can not convert that high voltage to power the Thun, therefore, the Thun needs it's own 12V when using more than 10S as battery. I recently sent the fried CAv3 back to Adam at Grin under RMA. Fortunately, my other CAv3 is working quite well. Keeps my cromotor from overheating when climbing Swiss hills.

Hi Justin and all,

Can I get a CA v3 and run 24s straight in?

Did a quick search but wasnt conclusive. I have a CA v3 on my first build and love it. Totally worth it, considering it can improve efficiency so easily, it pays for itself to some degree.

So 100 volt is OK?

Thanks

http://www.ebikes.ca/store/store_CAV3.php
"Explanation Standard CA-DP Pads"

Thanks Amberwolf.
" Battery Power (V+): This is the V+ supply of the battery pack, used both to power the CA and also to sense the battery voltage. The maximum supply voltage with no accessories is 150V, but this must be derated if there are other devices (Torque Sensor, Input Throttle etc) also drawing power from the CA."

The 'Advanced Features' section of the Setup Notes has been expanded and posted as a printable PDF file. Additional notes on operation with high voltage batteries has been added. Since this is largely a reference section, most hyperlinks have been replaced with material imported from other posts as well as the Grin Tech site to make a more complete printable document. The web version is not yet updated.

The existing Basic Installation and Console Operation section PDFs have been renamed but have no material change in content (the filename timestamps are unchanged from the previous posting).

Since this has pretty much gotten out of the 'notes' category, it has been renamed as an Unofficial Installation Guide.
Enjoy!

teklektik said:

The 'Advanced Features' section of the Setup Notes has been expanded and posted as a printable PDF file.

Click to expand...

Oops - important omission regarding power sequencing in new section on High Voltage Vehicles. Reposted...

I love my CAv3.

Yesterday at work, I left my bike outside in the cold. It started raining, then snowing. My lipos were charged inside, so no problems there. However, after I had mounted my lipo on the bike again, and wanted to drive home, a bad thing happend. I turned the ignition key, and immediately the bike jumped 50 cm forward with a 3kW push. In reflex, I gripped my ebrake, cutting the power, switched off the bike, and got off. You can bet I was a bit shaken.

I started doing some analytics. When I got to my bike, I had to swipe a lot of snow from the saddle, but also from the twist throttle. I immediately assumed that the throttle was soaking wet, leading to an increased conductivity.

I gripped my ebrake, turned on the bike, and went into the Throttle-in configuration screen. Look and behold, the throttle showed a constantly changing ThroIn between 0.90V and 1.80V. With the ThroIn at 0.87V mapped for ThroOut of 1.25V, and the controller reacting to 1.30V, it was no wonder that the bike jumped at no throttle. Because the No-throttle could actually translate into a 1.80V ThroIn, which would be translated into something like 2.5V ThroOut. And yes, that would make the bike produce something like 3kW at standstill.

The solution was clear. I mapped ThroIn to 1.90V, delivering ThroOut 1.25V. This obviously created a huge starting lag of my throttle, but at least I was able to get home safely.

Overnight, the bike was drying in my wintergarten. This morning, I checked, and everything was normal again with ThroIn resting voltage at 0.85V. I remapped to ThroIn 0.87V and all was well. I am SOOO happy with the CAv3 that allowed me to diagnose the problem within seconds, and create a working solution within minutes.

Any suggestions how to protect the throttle from the rain? Should I open up the throttle and fill it with grease or vaseline? What happens with vaseline at -10oC? Any other ideas?

I suspect it would be a good solution, but I have no recent experience at those temperatures.

I also have praise for the throttle readout/range control: I have had a wierd intermittent problem with teh 18FET on CrazyBike2, which seems to only happen when the pack is closer to full charge--the lower the voltage gets, the less often it happens.

WOThrottle voltage can be up to 4.2something volts, out of my thumb throttle. Never a problem on the other controllers so far, but on this one, at full pack voltage, it causes complete cutout, just as if I engaged an ebrake (which I don't have wired up on this one). This would not usually be a big deal, but I naturally hit WOT trying to accelerate away from a stop sign or traffic light, or when certain traffic conditions suddenly happen that I have to acclerate thru or away from. Having power cut out right then is pretty unhelpful, and it's not instinctive to roll throttle back to get more power.


Anyway, I hadn't done anything about it because it was easy to deal with, but tonight one of those traffic situations came up with an idiot deciding to try to pull out of a side street jsut as I was about to pass in front of him, and my only option was to go faster really quick to get out of the wya---braking would've just caused me to skid and crash, at that speed with those conditons (sandy road edge), and traffic in the lane next to me so I couldn't just swerve left out of the way.


So after easily getting out of the way (but with an instant's panic when power cut out because of the problem), I continued to a parking lot and pulled into a space, and went to the first "left" screen on the CA, with the awvst limits indicator, and the throttle voltages. I tilted the bike on the right pod up so the wheel was off-ground, watching the Throttle in and out voltages, and goosed it WOT. As soon as it reached 4.10V out, the motor cut out. 4.09V it was fine.

I entered setup, throttle output section, and set max out to 4.09V. Retested, and no problems since. Way easy fix, and took almost as little time as just rolling back the throttle to recover! (which I won't have to do now. )


So anyway, another "YAY!" from me.

hjns said:

Look and behold, the throttle showed a constantly changing ThroIn between 0.90V and 1.80V. With the ThroIn at 0.87V mapped for ThroOut of 1.25V, and the controller reacting to 1.30V, it was no wonder that the bike jumped at no throttle. Because the No-throttle could actually translate into a 1.80V ThroIn, which would be translated into something like 2.5V ThroOut.

Any suggestions how to protect the throttle from the rain? Should I open up the throttle and fill it with grease or vaseline? What happens with vaseline at -10oC? Any other ideas?

Click to expand...

Judging by the Zero throttle voltage this looks like a hall throttle - I don't really understand the cause of the failure unless it's stray voltage across wet hall leads or throttle connector pins. I guess you could try drying it out with a heat gun or hair dryer. It that works, you might goop the exposed internal connections with Liquid Lectric Tape, Vasoline, or Permatex 22058 dielectric grease (available from auto stores and basically a kind of fancy silicone grease with no damaging petroleum products). The throttle connector is a good place for a dab of dielectric grease in any case.

A quick search of ES shows this has come up before, but no real follow-up so the reasons and eventual fix were not clear.

Hello,

I've tried searching, but I am unable to locate something that sort of spells out the change log in versions of cycleanalyst. Does anyone know of some kind of list?

There is no change log. If you read the Release Notes you will get some idea of new features, but they do not address all changes or bug fixes. You can post a question about a specific concern.

Hi guys,

It is my understanding that the v3 cycle analyst allows you to use a resistor type throttle even with a hall sensor hub motor. Is this correct to assume? Is there any draw backs to using a resistor throttle in this way?

Well, it doesn't matter if the hub motor has hall sensors or not--nothing to do with throttle type.

However, if you have a controller (for any kind of motor, hub or not, sensored or not) that has an input voltage range typical of hall sensor throttles, that doesn't go from 0 to 5V (typical of potentiometer throttles), but more like 0.8V(ish)-4V(ish), you can still use the pot (resistive) throttle on there via the V3 CA. You'd set the CA's throttle input range to whatever comes out of the throttle, and the output range to whatever the controller requires. The CA will scale between them for you.