Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 08 2013 7:42am

Green Machine wrote:It is my understanding that the v3 cycle analyst allows you to use a resistor type throttle even with a hall sensor hub motor. Is this correct to assume? Is there any draw backs to using a resistor throttle in this way?
The difficulty has not been with the motor but with the controller - most of which are built with a roughly 1-4v input range similar to the output of hall throttles. The 0-5v output of resistive throttles results in 'dead zones' at the ZERO and WOT ends of the range and has classically been addressed by adding some external resistors or trimpots. One of the very nice features of the V3 is that it is specifically designed to provide configuration options to match throttle output to controller input range. (See the colored graphs in the middle of this post.)

Resistive throttles (Magura) provide a linear output which has generally made them more desirable. Halls have typically been pretty non-linear with some annoying mid-range dead zones leading to twitchy throttle control. There do seem to be some newer hall throttles with improved magnet designs that improve the linearity.

In your case (if we're talking about your MAC mid-drive), running the V3 in Current or Power Throttle mode in addition to the resistive throttle will make the motor much more controllable and will eliminate the sudden midrange step in throttle response.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Kepler » Feb 11 2013 1:35am

I am up to the wiring side of setting up a my CA3 on an RC friction drive with magnetic PAS. I am thinking of running the +5V and ground from the ESC and then wiring the PAS signal to the surplus SP wire within the 6 wire harness.

Can anyone see any issues with this wiring diagam?
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 11 2013 2:30am

Kepler wrote:I am thinking of running the +5V and ground from the ESC and then wiring the PAS signal to the surplus SP wire within the 6 wire harness.

Can anyone see any issues with this wiring diagram?
Re-purposing the yellow CA-DP(5) lead for the PAS connection is fine. I'm unfamiliar with the RC ESC signal nomenclature, but assuming that ThrO->PPM is correct, the throttle looks good, too.

However, as per section 3.3 of the CA V2.23 manual regarding external shunts, and the wiring of the CA SA shunt, you should have the CA-DP(2) Gnd on the battery side of the shunt with the blue (S-) shunt wire. This will raise the ESC Gnd slightly relative to the CA under high current (0.05v for 0.5mOhm shunt at 100A) but this will not adversely affect interpretation of the PAS ON/OFF state. Alternatively, connecting the PAS Gnd to the same point as the CA-DP(2) Gnd might be slightly tidier electrically.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Kepler » Feb 11 2013 3:00am

Thanks for the feedback Teklektik.

In relation to what side to put the ground, I am a little confused. Manual seems to say the opposite to the CA RC thread http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 6&start=30
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 11 2013 9:03am

Kepler wrote:In relation to what side to put the ground, I am a little confused. Manual seems to say the opposite to the CA RC thread http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 6&start=30
The confusion seems to arise from the bulleted items on that page and the term 'Gnd' which might be either ESC Gnd or CA Gnd. It is a little unclear if the page is noting that this is an alternative (ESC Gnd) or is the same as Shunt- ('normal' CA Gnd). The latter would make it consistent with the CA v2.23 manual and construction of the CA-SA shunt which is also recommended for CA-RC use.

Although I could make some guesses, I'm unfamiliar with the exact way the shunt signals are handled on the CA PCB and would recommend going with the CA v2.23 interpretation (CA-Gnd). You might like to shoot an email to Grin Tech Support for an authoritative answer if it is more convenient in your wiring to tie the leads as you have have drawn them. If you do, please post back.

Good page, though -thanks for the link.

EDIT - Here's what the older V2 CA-SA shunt looked like as mentioned in the CA-RC thread. The four CA lines are identical in function and color code to the V2 or V3 CA-DP connector.
CA-SA Shunt Dongle2.gif
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by izeman » Feb 12 2013 1:23pm

i have some problems connecting my lyen 312 sensored controller to the ca. i want to use the throttle control feature of the ca as well.
when i connect the throttle directly to the controller i have a butter smooth start, but topspeed is 16km/h only.
when i connect the throttle to the ca directly nothing happens. i disconnect the green wire from the diode pad on the board, and connect it directly to SL1 the motor spins at full speed, but stutters a bit when starting, and stalls sometimes when releasing the throttle and going wot again.
i must say that i didnot move the yellow cable to SA, and left it where it's connected. i don't want to desolder and resolder any cables if not necessary.

Image

it's also weird, that when repositioning the green cable, then the directly connected throttle doesn't work anymore.

any help? i'm a bit confused, and a afraid to experiment a lot as i don't want to short anything, and destroy the controller and/or CA. thanks!

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 12 2013 3:18pm

Sorry to hear you are having issues. A few questions:

What is the source of this wiring diagram? Are you attempting to add a CA connector to your controller which lacked it originally or to modify an existing V2 CA controller connector to be V3 compatible?

Apologies for some unfamiliarity with your controller connection labelling, but what is the relationship of SL1 to SP? Are these the same electrically? For a generic controller upgrade, the CA-DP(6) Throttle Out signal would go to SP (controller Throttle In). SL1 may be an alternate throttle input Lyen has provided, but its purpose needs a bit of clarification.

You did not mention your V3 configuration settings. Have you gone through the throttle set up procedures in the Unofficial Installation Guide? If not, then the throttle and controller may not be matched and you could be experiencing input faults from the controller or CA causing the 'stalls'.

I run a couple of Lyen EB312s with a V3 on my bike and I am certain you will get good results if this snag can be identified. :)
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by mrbill » Feb 12 2013 3:40pm

Has a "clutch saver" or more accurately, "one-way bearing saver", feature been considered?

Some of us ride with drivetrains that include one-way bearings that are usually engaged after the drivetrain takes up what is usually but not always a small amount of backlash (e.g. a slightly slack chain). The moment the drivetrain becomes engaged is one of high instantaneous stress on any clutch or one-way bearing. Most bicycle one-way bearings (e.g. ratcheting freewheels) are usually pretty sturdy under this kind of load, but roller-bearing clutches have torque limits that on e-bike-sized parts are marginally adequate.

I have tried to lower the throttle gain to effect this, but I find this does not quite have the behavior I'm looking for. Reducing throttle gain merely caps the speed with which the throttle lever can be thrown but still allows the drivetrain to be "slammed" if enough backlash is in the system and the current limit is moderately high.

This feature might best be associated with the Throttle Out programming.

I was thinking that an easy way to enable a mode like this is to have a current gain ramp from zero. This would be different from the throttle pull-back gain that affects the rate of pull-back when current exceeds the maximum current. When the throttle is engaged the current limit is initially zero, then ramps to the set limit over a period of seconds or milliseconds to be set by the user.

A more complicated program would involve some feedback. The current limit would be fixed to a low number sufficient to spin an unloaded drivetrain until a significant load is sensed. Then after another short delay the current limit would ramp to the full programmed current limit.

The user should probably be able to turn on and off this feature as it probably is not useful to DD hub motor users. The "low" current limit, "short delay", and ramp could also be set by the user, since some drivetrains could conceivably involve multiple stages whose backlash would be taken up in stages rather than in one step (like a long freight train getting started).

Anyway, I thought I'd throw the idea out there in case it hadn't been considered.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 12 2013 4:12pm

mrbill wrote:Has a "clutch saver" or more accurately, "one-way bearing saver", feature been considered?
Yes. Re-engagement at speed was first discussed back on page 3 of the thread in the context of gear motors.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by izeman » Feb 12 2013 5:43pm

teklektik wrote:What is the source of this wiring diagram? Are you attempting to add a CA connector to your controller which lacked it originally or to modify an existing V2 CA controller connector to be V3 compatible?
the source of the diagram? if i understand your question correctly: this is directly from justin's post.
lyen's controller has the CA connector installed. but i don't know if it's v2 or v3
Apologies for some unfamiliarity with your controller connection labelling, but what is the relationship of SL1 to SP? Are these the same electrically? For a generic controller upgrade, the CA-DP(6) Throttle Out signal would go to SP (controller Throttle In). SL1 may be an alternate throttle input Lyen has provided, but its purpose needs a bit of clarification.
SP is fine for me. on the controller board there CA-DP(6) is connected to a diode, which itself is connected to SP. i desoldered pin6 and soldered it to SP directly. that made the ca thru throttle work. otherwise the wheel wouldn't turn.
the question remains if CA-DP(5) has to go to SA, or if it may stay connected to where it is - which is the pad where it should work with a v2.
You did not mention your V3 configuration settings. Have you gone through the throttle set up procedures in the Unofficial Installation Guide? If not, then the throttle and controller may not be matched and you could be experiencing input faults from the controller or CA causing the 'stalls'.

I run a couple of Lyen EB312s with a V3 on my bike and I am certain you will get good results if this snag can be identified. :)
i read the whole setup guide and adjusted all min/max values, and it works really nice w/o any dead zones. to ask a precise question: what did you have to change to connect the v3 with connected throttle to a eb312?
thanks :)

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Kepler » Feb 12 2013 7:42pm

Setting up the CA and controller on the bench and working through all the menus. So many things to adjust. I am loving this.

Hit a snag though. Got the controller setup in RC mode. Firstly it didnt want to arm with mS peramiters I put in. In fact, the ESC went into setup mode indicating it was at full throttle. Sorted this out by setting mS Low to a high value of of 2.10 and the mS High value to 0.8mS. This seemed to work OK and allowed the ESC to arm. Also confirmed that I was getting PPM signal back to the ESC from the CA.
IMG_1898.JPG
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Connected a throttle and set up the CA in pass through mode. I could see the bar graph going up an down (nice feature) Also in the throttle voltage setup screen, I could see the full range of voltage moving from 0 to 100%. In my case it was 0.85V = zero throttle. 4.2V = 100% throttle. Throttle safety voltage was set to 4.55V so all good there.

Set minimum start speed to zero.

Unfortunately no motor start as the throttle is advance. ESC is definitely armed.

Can i see the mS output, the same as I can see the throttle voltage output? I didn't check if I could do that.

Any suggestions to what I may have missed?
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 12 2013 8:23pm

izeman wrote:
teklektik wrote:What is the source of this wiring diagram?
the source of the diagram? if i understand your question correctly: this is directly from justin's post.
Ha! You got me on that one - I hadn't realized at the time that the new V3 spec was already appearing in controllers and had sort of dismissed the wiring diagram in his post as a 'futures' item. Thanks for the heads-up!
izeman wrote:
teklektik wrote:Are you attempting to add a CA connector to your controller which lacked it originally or to modify an existing V2 CA controller connector to be V3 compatible?

Apologies for some unfamiliarity with your controller connection labeling, but what is the relationship of SL1 to SP? Are these the same electrically? For a generic controller upgrade, the CA-DP(6) Throttle Out signal would go to SP (controller Throttle In).
lyen's controller has the CA connector installed. but i don't know if it's v2 or v3.
SP is fine for me. on the controller board there CA-DP(6) is connected to a diode, which itself is connected to SP. i desoldered pin6 and soldered it to SP directly. that made the ca thru throttle work. otherwise the wheel wouldn't turn.
Okay - good news that it's running. With the as-shipped diode hookup, it's V2-compatible, although if your board is actually constructed according to Justin's post, things should have worked using the SL1 connection. But - as long as SP is working out, the SL1 mystery can be solved another day...
izeman wrote:the question remains if CA-DP(5) has to go to SA, or if it may stay connected to where it is - which is the pad where it should work with a v2.
It can stay where it is. Only the throttle connection differs between the V2 and V3 - all else is the same.
izeman wrote:i read the whole setup guide and adjusted all min/max values, and it works really nice w/o any dead zones. to ask a precise question: what did you have to change to connect the v3 with connected throttle to a eb312?
thanks :)
Very glad to hear all is working well :D.
Well, I have a bit of an unusual situation because of the dual motors, but the short answer is that I used the controller throttle connectors and no changes were necessary to the controllers themselves.

The longer story: I presently run two EB312s and originally ran a V2 with an older CA-SA external shunt and a wheel pickup - the CA controls/monitors both motors at once. I retrofit the bike with a V3 (with throttle support) but left the V2 shunt and wheel pickup in place. I run the CA Throttle Out through a couple of Schottky diodes (D4 and D5) and directly into the existing controller Throttle connectors as shown here. Except for the diodes, this is exactly as Justin described in his post. All the other stuff in the referenced diagram other than the D4 and D5 diodes is for other functionality unrelated to making the basic throttle work with the V3 and two controllers. At the time of the V2 to V3 upgrade I was running Crystalyte controllers and subsequently switched to the EB312s as a plug-in replacement - no wiring changes.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Kepler » Feb 13 2013 4:36am

Got it going. Changed the min and max mS setting back around and this time it didn't go into setup mode i.e full throttle. Now it starts and runs as expected. Now experimenting with lots of settings. Loving this CA. Seems to have all bases covered and it looks like its going to be perfect for my friction drives.

I am glad I held back until most of the bugs were ironed out. Tough sitting on the sidelines but worth the wait. Great work Justin and input from all the early adopters especially Teklektik.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by izeman » Feb 13 2013 8:43am

to repeat and make clear what i've done to make it works as is:
desoldered CA-DP(6) from X3 (red circle) and resoldered to SLA as there is NO SL1 on my controller (ignoring the diode) (red circle)
i hope this is ok?!
or should it be SP? there is some more info in this thread http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =3&t=43025

Image

this is the diode i'm speaking of:

Image

now i'll start working to find out why motor start is NOT smooth, and throttle is "pumping".

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 13 2013 8:57am

Kepler wrote:Got it going. ... Loving this CA. Seems to have all bases covered and it looks like its going to be perfect for my friction drives.

I am glad I held back until most of the bugs were ironed out. Tough sitting on the sidelines but worth the wait. Great work Justin and input from all the early adopters especially Teklektik.
Great news! There is certainly a shortfall regarding RC drives in the Installation Guide as others have also discovered. I have an email in to Justin about a detail or two and will expand the material to better cover RC setup. Thanks for posting details of your efforts - very useful.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 13 2013 12:12pm

izeman wrote:to repeat and make clear what i've done to make it works as is:
desoldered CA-DP(6) from X3 (red circle) and resoldered to SLA as there is NO SL1 on my controller (ignoring the diode) (red circle)
i hope this is ok?!
or should it be SP?
Let's back up a step. Since you have ascertained that the controller board is NOT labeled identically to the original image you were following and there is no indication that it supports anything other than V2, it would seem the best strategy is simply to follow Justin's instructions using strategy #3: replace the diode with a 470-1K resistor and leave the CA-DP(6) connection in place as shipped.

Without your board to examine to determine the exact input component arrangement, it is difficult to say with any certainty what will be the effect of connecting to SLA. However, if it is indeed equivalent to SL1 in the left diagram below and there is no R1 (i.e. this is a classic V2 configuration), then connecting to SLA will tie CA Throttle Out directly to the uproc input pin. As Justin explains in his instructions, this is inadvisable.

Tying to SP directly inside the controller instead of externally via the throttle connector introduces the possibility of plugging the throttle into the controller with the CA still connected and so tying the CA Throttle Out directly to the operator throttle output. This scheme is workable if you are careful never to make this plug-in mistake, but...
  • Here the simplest and safest strategy is to use the #3 V2 to V3 conversion technique (right diagram below) as Justin recommended for 'in controller' hookup and ignore the 'futures' section of the post.
CAV2-ThrottleOverrideMod.jpg
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by izeman » Feb 13 2013 12:21pm

connecting CA-DP(6) to SLA works same as connecting it to SP.
btw: this is the same as justin describes at #1 - moving the green wire from ca-dp to regular speed input.
both give a turning wheel up to full speed, but it's not running really smooth when accellerating and seems to be "pumping". should i make a video to make it more clearly?

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 13 2013 12:41pm

izeman wrote:connecting CA-DP(6) to SLA works same as connecting it to SP.
btw: this is the same as justin describes at #1 - moving the green wire from ca-dp to regular speed input.
As noted in the post above, this is true electrically, but does introduce the possibility of plugging both the throttle and CA to the controller at once which cannot occur in #1. Fine if you are careful, but again, #3 is recommended for in-controller modification.
izeman wrote:both give a turning wheel up to full speed, but it's not running really smooth when accellerating and seems to be "pumping". should i make a video to make it more clearly?
Is this on the stand or on the road? It is probably not useful to tune the CA for unloaded operation on the stand. If the problem exists on the road, you may be experiencing surging and will need to examine the Limit Flags and possibly reduce the gain as described in the Guide. Examine the diagnostic screen (one left of Main display) and watch the OUT voltage for fluctuations and for the appearance of Limit flags in the lower left character string.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by izeman » Feb 13 2013 1:05pm

ok. i guess now i understand what to do:
justin refers to SL1, which IS named SLA on my controller's board. measuring resitors in the picture you posted, and following traces on the board this leads me to my assumption.
if i understand correctly, i have to replace the diode with a 1k resitor, and then CA-DP(6) can be left connected as it was orginally.
i will do that now and see how it works. but i don't expect any results regarding the "pumping" effect, but at least it will be connected as designed (i'm not really good in reading circuit diagrams :) )

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by izeman » Feb 13 2013 1:08pm

teklektik wrote:It is probably not useful to tune the CA for unloaded operation on the stand. If the problem exists on the road, you may be experiencing surging and will need to examine the Limit Flags and possibly reduce the gain as described in the Guide. Examine the diagnostic screen (one left of Main display) and watch the OUT voltage for fluctuations and for the appearance of Limit flags in the lower left character string.
you may be right. the motor is in a wise, and there is almost no load. this may cause the problem. all limiting factors are disabled, and i already checked the limit flags. there seems no limiting.
temp is at ambient, there is no voltage sag, and battery is loaded, and there are only 5A max. :)

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 13 2013 1:18pm

izeman wrote:if i understand correctly, i have to replace the diode with a 1k resitor, and then CA-DP(6) can be left connected as it was orginally.
i will do that now and see how it works. but i don't expect any results regarding the "pumping" effect, but at least it will be connected as designed
I think this is the safest procedure to avoid any accidental issues. There was a quite a bit of new information in Justin's post so that 'futures' section may not have clearly stood out as such. No problem - as long we can get your V3 running okay :D.
izeman wrote:you may be right. the motor is in a wise, and there is almost no load. this may cause the problem.
I think there may be some limiting in play that is too fast to see. My motor runs a little ratty on the stand as well. When your build moves along far enough to get this on the road, I think the problem will either clear up or can be addressed with some config adjustments.

Anyhow - apologies we didn't get this controller mod squared away quicker. Thanks for the posts - I will clarify the on-line Guide a bit to try to avoid this in the future.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by izeman » Feb 13 2013 1:43pm

thanks. no apologies needed :) we are all here because we like trying things out and experimenting with gadgets.

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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by teklektik » Feb 13 2013 5:36pm

teklektik wrote:
Kepler wrote:In relation to what side to put the ground, I am a little confused. Manual seems to say the opposite to the CA RC thread http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 6&start=30
Although I could make some guesses, I'm unfamiliar with the exact way the shunt signals are handled on the CA PCB and would recommend going with the CA v2.23 interpretation (CA-Gnd).
Kepler-
Examining Justin's controller wiring diagram in izeman's post, we find the identical CA shunt to Gnd relationship as in your diagram. Further, the wiring called out in MattyCiii's RC post also appears to match your proposal. I got a response back from Justin on this which I will fold into the Installation Guide. The short form is that there are no direct adverse electrical consequences to the CA when tying CA-Gnd to either Shunt (+) or (-).

Since either way is acceptable, there are clear Gnd reference advantages for throttle and PAS by wiring it as you show in your diagram. :D
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Kepler » Feb 13 2013 8:12pm

Thanks for following up on that. Much appreciated.
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Re: Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Post by Kepler » Feb 13 2013 9:17pm

I have done a search and haven't found anyone using an Aux pot to limit. I plan to use this for my PAS to adjust the level of assist.

There is no mention on what value pot to use but i presume 5K will do the job. On the V2 CA the On the fly adjustment pot has a 2.7k resister in series with the pot so that the range is changed from 0-5V to 0-3V.

Is this advantageous with the CA3 or has been taken care of via software settings?
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