Kollmorgen 24v 400w brushless for skateboard?

Short version:
Kollmorgen 400w motor for a skateboard: http://goo.gl/M92Rx
- I want brushless for it's increased efficiency.
- Seems to be the most widespread brushless motor for bikes/scooters. Which means reliable?
- 5" diameter....should work depending on my wheels.
- 24v, 30A max, 400w
- Built in ESC; 5k pot
- Can't find any info about torque/RPM (generally ~3500RPM)
- Not sure if the ESC has a "break" function where the motor gives resistance to rotation. Does it need to specify this?
- I really wan't a break function to go down hills with...
- Planning to retrofit an E-glide skateboard with this motor.

I wanted to know others thoughts regarding my ideas. I appreciate any/all input.




Full story:
___________________________________________________________
So I've recently been turned on to the world of electric skateboards after riding one. I want a commuter board: lightweight, smallish (~36"), goes up hills, ~10mi range.

If I were to buy one, three options:
- E-glide 42" special - http://goo.gl/lExSt - Excellent board, superior reliability, $700, 50lb
- http://www.metro-board.com/ - Short board, wireless controls (eh...), $900 (too expensive for something that may break)
- Z-board - the new guys from kickstarter. A little heavy (~35lb), otherwise perfect. New guys/unsure reliability...$900

So I've decided to give it a go myself. Since I live close to the E-glide shop and they've been doing this for a decade, I'm planning on just picking up the board, trucks, motor mount, batteries, under-board batt bay from them.

The ENORMOUS majority of electric bikes, scooters and skateboards are using brushed motors. Is this only due to cost? I mean brushless isn't really that much more expensive when you're using custom made electronics in large quantities like E-glide does. I'll ask them this next time I go there.

Next, I'm thinking to maybe possible to swap out the E-glide motor for a Kollmorgen 400w motor: http://goo.gl/M92Rx
My only reason for choosing this motor is because it seems to be the most widespread brushless motor for bikes/scooters. That just means reliability to me. It also happens to have an ESC built in which simplifies everything. I see many using hobby motors...cool, but questionable since you basically end up with an RC car you happen to be able to stand on. Not to mention the electronics will likely fail due to misuse. Not an option for this project. I also do not like wireless.

For some reason, I can't seem to find any hard specifics about this motor. Nothing about torque, not much about RPM, nothing about the ESC other than it draws 24v 30A max. I note that it's got a 5" diameter which may or may not be a problem depending on the wheels I use. The other thing I'm concerned about is that I really want a break function on the skateboard. I believe the "break" is simply off on the motor with this particular model. I'm not quite sure what that means because when I rode the E-glide things, off was pretty much break and they said for electric there is no 'coast,' you either gas it or not. Coast functions are programmed into other ESC's if they have them.

I wanted to know others thoughts regarding my ideas. I appreciate any/all input.

have u try searching "kollmorgen" on here,

i don't see how u can fit this 5" motor under those e-skateboards... what wheels r u gonna use?
maybe those off road ones with bigger tires...

there are some newer chinese e-boards with brushless motor...\
but haven't read any reviews on them..
http://wackyboards.blogspot.com/2011/07/metroboard.html

the zboard should be similar weight to the eglide if both are running lithium batteries,
they seem to be using all the same chinese parts that were originally designed by exkate/altered


I have test rode the Boosted board,
its light and powerful, but i also wonder about the long term durablity of the electronics from daily usage...

http://cnpiaoma.en.alibaba.com/product/557878667-213809878/electric_skateboard_at_700W_brushless_motor_with_remote_control.html
http://cnpiaoma.en.alibaba.com/product/442298103-213572718/280W_electric_skateboard_with_brushless_motor.html

Thanks for that site. Very good source of various examples.
I have tired searching Kollmorgen and haven't really found much other than the general 'it's used for bikes and it's pretty good' deal.

I've personally had products and electronics made in china for a few products and I know how amazingly poor quality they can be. They manage to screw up the simplest of components. I've gotten some good things, but it's just way too difficult. Something I don't expect a skateboard company to do. I cannot consider anything that has that many components made in china reliable. I personally don't believe the Z-Board guys will be around for too long unless they figure out how to improve the reliability really fast. Their China made components are a sleeping dragon in my eyes.

I realize 5" is probably an inch too much, but I believe the motors currently used in the E-glide have a 4.5" diameter. I'm not sure though. I gotta go back and measure things. Is there another option you would recommend. I'm okay with the hobby motors, but don't really like the electronics. I also haven't quite figured out the Kv and Amp system for these hobby motors. 200+Kv seems like a TON of power to me. They're also rated in the kilowatt range which just seems ridiculous to me at my novice level. I don't quite understand what the ESC does to draw that much power from a sub 50v pack. Lithium too! Seems kinda dangerous if not used properly. All reasons why I'd like to stick to the simplicity and safety of bike/scooter drive-trains.

here's a brushless mtboard with more power,
http://www.made-in-china.com/showroom/flamebikes/product-detailcbdnNsMyyXrG/China-900W-1300W-Electric-Skateboards-with-Brushless-Motor-Lithium-Battery.html

not sure how long these brushed motors last under daily usage,
but there is a member on here "ypedal" that said he used a goped daily for a year or something like that....
and goped uses brushed motor,
not sure how often u got to change the brushes...
also, i am not sure how much more efficient brushless vs brushed

10mile round trip?
how long and how steep are the hills?

also, for the rc stuff,
Kv is rpm per volt...
and rc motors are rated different, peak watt vs continuous...

have u test ride an eglide?

Those kollmorgens are super pricey these days and that's when you can find them, which seems to be very seldom lately. Superkids probably still have some, but you'll pay their premium price.

sk8norcal said:

here's a brushless mtboard with more power,

10mile round trip?
how long and how steep are the hills?

also, for the rc stuff,
Kv is rpm per volt...
and rc motors are rated different, peak watt vs continuous...

have u test ride an eglide?

StudEbiker:
Those kollmorgens are super pricey these days

Click to expand...

So I've tried the Z-board and felt like 400w is good for me. That being said, it seems like the 600w and 800w boards don't go faster, but are just more powerful. If that's the case, I'd be all for an easier hill climb...?

So a lower Kv for the same wattage means more torque right? How would I find out continuous wattage/current?

I have tried out all the eglide boards and oh man are they solid and smooth. The off road boards are monsters. The 42 Special with their custom rubber compound "goodyear" wheels is probably the perfect recreational board (seriously ULTRA smooth). Unfortunately it's 50lb. Bump the price to $900+ for lithium and you save 20lb.

They have smaller boards, but they're kinda crappy for lack of a better term. Can't properly get up to speed or turn due to the short wheelbase. It makes riding less enjoyable, but they're better commuter boards. I also like to enjoy so 38"-42" seems to be the first sweet spot. I initially viewed powerboards as skateboards with power, but I now know that they're totally different.

The eglide wires are whatever. I like freedom of no wires and controller-less stomp pads of the Z-board, but hugely appreciate the reliability of a wire and extremely simple potentiometer. I'm not a fan of wireless. In fact if I ended up with a wireless board, I'd probably ride it until the electronics broke or a glitch threw me off then replace the electronics with a wired version.

Right now, I'm looking at some interesting truck designs: http://www.autoskateboard.com/page-25-64.html or http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/1534/shocksq.jpg
I imagine these trucks to be 'stronger' given the simple hinge over the rubber/pivot of a typical truck. That being said, the typical truck is massively widespread and these are more exotic. Does that mean less reliable?

Maybe you could have better luck, BUT, The Kollmorgen I have has a cracked magnet ring, and, I was given info that that is a common thing. I'm currently saving up for an RC motor. Mine was on a weedwhacker, so it got a relatively cushy life. On a skateboard, I think vibrations will be the downfall.

yes, lower Kv = more torque,
not sure about continuous rating for rc motors....

more amp = more torque, better acceleration

"I initially viewed powerboards as skateboards with power, but I now know that they're totally different."
not sure what u mean, as a longboarder, i like eboards to still feel like a normal longboard.
and boosted is like that for me...
lead acid eboard feels like riding a board made of concrete... :lol:


cant get that link to open,
i think the site is down...

sk8norcal said:

yes, lower Kv = more torque,
not sure about continuous rating for rc motors....

more amp = more torque, better acceleration

"I initially viewed powerboards as skateboards with power, but I now know that they're totally different."
not sure what u mean, as a longboarder, i like eboards to still feel like a normal longboard.
and boosted is like that for me...
lead acid eboard feels like riding a board made of concrete... :lol:


cant get that link to open,
i think the site is down...

Click to expand...

The site is down, here's a pic: http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/1534/shocksq.jpg

I definitely like the snowboard like feel of a long board and the boosted project is great for that. When I rode a powerboard, I was shocked at the actual power and range of the thing. Unfortunately the nice feeling stuff is out of my price range (the lithium batteries mostly). So it's the concrete block for me, and those don't really feel like skateboards any longer. More like a stand up vehicle...

Anyways, I'm really considering just picking up a $300 board from china and riding it till the electronics break than fixing it how I want it to be. I'm assuming the board/trucks/motor shouldn't really have any issues. I've read some info about the china stuff and it seams the electronics are a common problem, but I'm fine with that. Should I be cautious about the motor/trucks? I mean I know they can screw things up pretty easily, but these parts are just so basic.

That being said, I'd like to go with the sprung trucks for the better carving performance, but am unsure about going with a more complex system compared to traditional trucks. Input greatly appreciated on these matters.

eatkabab said:

Anyways, I'm really considering just picking up a $300 board from china and riding it till the electronics break than fixing it how I want it to be.

Click to expand...

Do yourself a favor and buy a board from a reputable company. I think the #1 thing to look for when buying an electric skateboard is customer-service.

I can vouch for E-Glide and Evolve Electric Skateboards customer service.
I know both of the owners, and they are great guys. Very friendly and passionate about the sport.

E-Glide:
Large/Heavy "Daily Driver". If you are looking for something super reliable and proven, then these guys have a great track-record. I personally like electric skateboards w/ pneumatic tires, but it seems you aren't after that. In which case the rubber Goodyear tires are pretty good. You would want to buy yourself a few drive-tires though, as they wear out much faster than the others.

Evolve:
Semi-Small / Light-Weight "Hybrid". If you are looking for something that you can carry under your arm, then this is the board for you. It may not have the same hill-climbing power as the E-Glide stuff, but it's still a decent board from a cool company.


Wired vs Wireless:
I'm also a big fan of wired, especially for the heavier boards. I like it for its reliability. But each system (wired vs wireless) has its drawbacks:

Wireless - Signal interruption could lead to some serious problems (like losing signal when you need to be braking, or losing signal mid-acceleration). There's a battery in the remote that could go dead. Without the wire (and sometimes even with the wire) some of the hand-controllers can be mistaken for a gun (seems like a stupid complaint, but it's true. You don't want to give any pedestrians any reasons to complain to the cops). No serious dead-man's brake (if you fall off, you will be struggling to apply the brakes before it runs into you (or a parked car)).

Wired - It's possible for the wire to get caught on something (like the bottom of your foot or a tree-branch if you ride off-road). You aren't going to be doing any fancy spins or footwork w/ a wired set-up (not sure if that's your thing of not). When you crash, there is a chance you can destroy the wire (it can be yanked on pretty hard if the quick-disconnect doesn't release soon enough). If your quick-disconnect isn't strong-enough, or you pull on the controller too far while riding, you can disconnect the wire un-intentionally (which can lead to brakes being applied).


Brushed vs Brushless:
After riding a variety of boards, I'd say it really doesn't matter. Boards/scooters are fairly light-weight and the brushes in their motors will likely out-last the life of the scooter. Brushless is likely a little more efficient. I think the brushed motors (for scooter applications) have data-sheets that claim 78% efficiency, while brushless claim closer to 90%. So all said and done you might be talking a difference of 1 mile range (if you have a 10-mile range board).


Good luck dude.

Had a lot of experience with these motors, the built in controllers on these motors suck big time, they fail very quickly, best thing that you can do with them is bake the controller lid in an oven and remove the epoxy and the controller you can then allow more air to flow and you can run an external controller on it.

Magnet rotors cracking and breaking is common too, it comes from a combination of high rpms and high temperatures, you can alleviate it a little by running jb weld around the edges of the magnet and the rotor but it will crack in time its just a case of when.

The BMC is a much better bet especially for over volting as the magnets are on the inside of the rotor and can not fail, the downside being the coils are on the inside and require more cooling, its still a much better motor although it is more expensive.

I have at least 10 brand new Kollmorgen motors in my attic in a box, they will see the light of day sometime on a project, they work fine if you keep the power down and run them on an external controller, glue up the rotor and keep the power below 1KW and you might get a year of daily use before you need to put a new rotor in and to be honest it would be cheaper to buy a new motor, I notice scooter parts dont off the magnetic rotor part for sale, this is the bit that will fail as you really have to go some to burn out the coils on this motor.

I think an off the shelf board would be a better option.

Alright, so 24v 400w or 36v 600w? They should both be about the same speed but would the 600w climb hills easier? I prefer the 400w for the one less battery weight, but would rather have something that can climb if the 400w won't be able to climb properly.

the 600w should climb better, the 400w are too weak.
more amps = more climbing power

seems like all the eglides skateboards are 24v, and mountainboards are 36v
http://www.e-glide.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=108&Itemid=128

you will probably have a hard time getting five miles out of it if u got lots of hills.
and the SLA batteries lose their performance quickly.

i don't have much experience with these chinese eboards,
but i have a couple of 24v mini scooters.

with SLA, altered claims 6-8miles...new....
http://www.alteredusa.com/product.asp?recordid=6359

The 400W motors that E-Glide uses are pretty kick-ass. You couple 'em with Lithium and they feel more like 800W.

http://www.e-glide.com/images/stories/motortest/pic3.jpg
i dont see their motor listed as replacement parts,
i wonder how much $

edit:
found some on ebay,
not sure if its same as original,
looks like an United motor.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/E-Glide-GT-AT-Electric-Skateaboard-Motor-36-volts-800-watts-/160949018275?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25794f1ea3

here's a video showing some climbing,
[youtube]uQePl0S5kkM[/youtube]

Same thing, just cheaper:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-800-Wat...217?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d0ace3a01

If you go with 48v lipo batteries, you can easily climb hills with a 600w brushed motor.

dirkdiggler said:

Same thing, just cheaper:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-800-Wat...217?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d0ace3a01

Click to expand...

Gotta be careful with buying these motors. They may look the same, but they can be different in all sorts of ways.
In this case the chain-drive is different than the belt-drive.
Also:
shaft-lengths can vary, as well as what gauge wire is coming from the motor, or what connector is used at the ends of those wires could also be different.

Eatkabab


Update finally the 42special motor to 600w or 800w?

Thanks

I'm using two kollmorgen 400W on my E-Mountainboard. I'm running on a 52.8v 12Ah LiFePO4 pack and using two 12fet leyn controllers. The great thing about these motors is the price, I paid about 20 usd on each as I bought it stated as deffective, but as most of the times, only the internal controller was burnt, the motors was fine. My controllers are set to 45-50A (I dont remember exactly) so they're running at about 2000W each. I can run all day long and they don't get too hot.
But they dont have the same torque as RC brushless motors, I think because of the magnets that are ceramics not neodymium, but they work great at hills and if don't be gentle with the throttle the tires will burn very quick .