35 MPH cruise, 10 mile range, looking for tips

Hi all,

I am finally putting together parts for my build. First, a little history. My last motorized bicycle was a 66cc Happy Time with a 36T rear that would run 32 MPH pretty well and 39.7 top speed. After 400 miles, I blew it up (wrist pin bearing went, I knew I should have replaced it)... but even getting to those 400 miles was a constant battle with reliability. And you guys with electrics always seemed so happy :lol:

I live in a small town just south of Austin, TX, and I really enjoyed having a motorized bicycle to run errands. A 10 mile loop lets me hit the post office, the drug store, Target, Lowe's, fast food, etc. And the speed limit on those roads is 35 MPH. Yes, I know I can ride slower on the shoulder, but I really do like keeping up with traffic instead of being a roadblock. I figure if the police did not give me a second look on a 35 MPH 2-smoke, a 35 MPH electric would be ok too, right? I can even dummy pedal (or uphill, actually pedal).

So the goal was to be able to cruise at 35 MPH with a 10 mile range with pedaling from a stand still. The longest distance without a stoplight or sign is about 2 miles. The terrain is a lot of short very slight grades. Nothing too steep, but where I live there are not a lot of long stretches of flat road.

I have a 1993 KHS chromoly steel mountain bike that I am planning to use. Nice large center triangle for batteries and controller, front Rock Shox, feels sturdy and rides smoothly. It was my former hike and bike trail pedal bike until I found a great deal on an older Cannondale...

My original plan was to go with a 48V 1000W yescomusa rear wheel kit and run 15AH worth of 14s lipo, figuring that would get me to 30 MPH and I would just upgrade the controller and add more batteries as I budgeted more for the project.

But then I decided I would just be happier taking a bit longer to piece my kit together and try to reach my goals with my first setup. So this is my current plan:

From cell_man's EM3ev site:
- MXUS DD motor (not sure of the wind? I weigh 200lbs... Maybe the 305 rpm?)
- 12 FET controller with the IRFB4110 fets, running 20s. 22s? 24s?
- Laced into the 26" Alex DM24 rim

That kit, shipped via SAL would be around $375, putting me $100 over the yescomusa kit, but I would hopefully not have to upgrade the controller to reach my 35 MPH goal?

I saw another similar post with similar goals and he was talking about going with the MAC geared motor instead, is a geared motor better than a DD for this type of use?

I am hoping to get in on the next run of Doc's torque arms in January, too.

Am I way off base with that setup?

From what I've read, that sort of speed requires power that may be a little much for a geared hub. For those that are after speed, DD seems the way to go. If the longest uninterrupted stretch you've got is 2 miles, the difference between 25 mph and 35 mph (top speed) won't make a whole lot of difference in your AVERAGE speed. Stop lights and stop signs will kill your average speed pretty quickly. However, wind resistance beyond 20mph grows exponentially. So, you're gonna need a fair amount of extra power to get that extra 5-10 mph. If you're just shooting for top speed, you'll definitely want a motor with a fast wind (not the 305 RPM.) Probably an 18S (or higher) battery. If you're mulling over the $100-dollar price difference between a YesCom and an MXUS (from EM3ev), just wait until you've gotta build a battery. That 100 bucks will seem like chump change!

I would lean toward the kit from EM3ev. I bought a MAC kit from the new site, and the service and support has been oustanding.

Get the 48V 1000W yescomusa kit. You can run up to 15s Lipo on it and that should get you close to 35mph. Over 30 for sure. If you want more speed than that, just get a 72V controller and take your 15s pack to 20s.Make sure you replace the small tire that comes with the kit and install rim tape. I ran mine on 14s with their controller and got close to 35mph, but quickly switched to a 72V controller and 18s just to try it. Now running 24s. About 6000 miles so far.

10Ah worth of 20S lipo and a 300rpm motor (10t geared or 7t DD) seems the best way to go that speed and distance. It's exactly what I ride. The geared motor will do 35mph just fine - mine does almost 40 on daily basis.
You may want to buy a faster motor and drop the cell count to 15 or less so you can run standard 48V controller and possibly a BMS, but then you will need more current too.

Either kit will work fine, but you need the 40 amp 12 fet controller of course.

I think the yes kit might be a faster wind, but the muxus, (yes the dd one) will just touch 40 mph on 20s 10 ah of RC lipo.

Your main concern will be the torque arms. You'll need them badly. If you get one of those kits that come with a 36-48v controller, I can't suggest strongly enough to experiment first with 15s, and get those torque plates dialed in before going to 20s and joining the 40 mph club. You'll be needing to dial in other stuff too, like brakes.

Speaking of brakes, I'm not sure if the muxus kit is disk ready. The 9c 2807 at grin cyclery is. At least upgrade to a disk front brake. Not because disk works better so much as because it's easier to keep disk functioning right. Pads need more tuning.

Charge safe bro.

Lastly, when you see the cop ride like you are driving around on an illegal unregistered uninsured homemade motorcycle. Cuz you are.

Thanks for the help guys, I really appreciate it! I am definitely planning on using at least one torque arm, or do you recommend 2 for a setup like this? I was thinking either Doc's torque arms, or the Grin 2 piece jobby.

About the brakes, I definitely plan on upgrading the front forks on the bike to one that has mounts for a disc. The current fork is an old Rock Shox Quadra 10 which is in desperate need of a rebuild, so I figured it might be a good time to just replace it with a modern disc brake fork.

I am new to lipo as well, so definitely doing a lot of reading on how to not burst into flame. I cannot recall how many times I forgot the charger overnight on the SLAs on the various Razor scooters and motorcycles in the garage. Fiery explosions are a good motivator for being more watchful about charging! I already have a 500W Mean Well sitting here next to me and have a Hyperion 1420i on the way (I figured no matter what kit I got I would need a lipo charger, so started there), and plan on getting a bunch of low voltage buzzers and volt/watt meter.

Thanks again for the help!

miuan said:

10Ah worth of 20S lipo and a 300rpm motor (10t geared or 7t DD) seems the best way to go that speed and distance. It's exactly what I ride. The geared motor will do 35mph just fine - mine does almost 40 on daily basis.
You may want to buy a faster motor and drop the cell count to 15 or less so you can run standard 48V controller and possibly a BMS, but then you will need more current too.

Click to expand...

Hey Miuan, This is really interesting to me. I run my Mac 10T at 12S 30A but the power bug is gnawing at me recently.

My controller will take 20S just fine but I'm concerned about pushing the power up that far. Are you using a Mac 10T at 20S ?

Kudos

Just to tell you what I have

DD hub motor 5304 in 26 inch wheel
18 FET Lyen controller at 20 Series.
that pack is 20s4p to make a 88 volt (max) 20Ah pack.

Top speed in this config is about 45mph, but it is nice at 30-35, my usual cruise speed, with a bit in reserve.
with that 20Ah pack I easily do 16 mile round trip , with some left over.
Even with 370 cycles and almost 7000 miles, I can still do this..from new that same pack would do more miles easily. Now I am getting down to LVC (68 volts) by about 14 miles.

So over spec the capacity of your pack, that will give you a longer life out of it. Even when it starts getting tired and towards 60-70% or less capacity, you still have plenty of capacity left.

BTW, I sent an email through the em3ev website asking about which wind to go with for the MXUS DD hub motor, this was Paul's response:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Michael,

I would say the 305rpm no load DD would be the best choice assuming 26" wheel and about 72V, should produce 35mph or maybe a little over I'd estimate. That is way over the rated power, so bear in mind you'll need to take a bit of care.

Thanks
Paul
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This mirrors Miuan's suggestion of a 300 rpm motor...

It will definitely be a unique experience to be travelling 30+ without some sort of ICE screaming below me. I am looking forward to the experience!

kudos said:

Hey Miuan, This is really interesting to me. I run my Mac 10T at 12S 30A but the power bug is gnawing at me recently.
My controller will take 20S just fine but I'm concerned about pushing the power up that far. Are you using a Mac 10T at 20S ?
Kudos

Click to expand...

Yes, I ride both Mac and BPM 10t motors at 20S. I power them off a 4110 6fet at anything between 15 and 25A, and a conservative phase ratio. I believe 30A battery current is a bit too much at 20S. The key is to avoid overtorque at low speeds that could damage the gears and clutch. The only other variable to watch is heat, so I use a 105C thermal switch epoxied near the windings that shuts off hall power..
Bike + rider weight = about 110kg, and pretty flat commute with just some short ascents (under 2km), so there is not a lot of overheating involved. Also I don't ride at full speed all the time, but the power and speed is there whenever I need it. For a heavier rider however, I'd possibly choose a 12 turn motor to keep the speed a bit lower.

Still planning out this build. Over the past few months I have been working on upgrading my Mongoose CX24V450 to 9s lipo, etc, so now that it is up an running well it is time to start gathering parts for the hub motor build.

So far I am planning on going with the following:

Motor kit: EM3EV MXUS DD kit with the 12 FET 40A controller in a 20" Alex DM24 wheel (wind?)
Batteries: 24s 15AH Turnigy lipo, probably the 4s 5AH hardcases
Torque arms: Doc's ultimate torque arms, welded to the frame
Nord-lock washers on both sides

Bike: Nirve B1, I was hoping to use a bike with 135mm dropouts, but since I love this frame so much I will just have to spread them
Front wheel: Matching Alex DM24 20" wheel, 12 gauge spokes
Front brake: Sturmey-Archer 90mm drum brake hub
Rear brake: Regen braking?
Tires: Pirelli ML75 16" moped tires
Fork: Stock rigid fork at first, going to a triple tree downhill fork eventually

So that is my wishlist so far. I was originally planning on going with 26" wheels but I really like the idea of running the 20" with moped tires. Any idea on what motor wind to use with the 20" wheels to cruise at 35-40 for a few miles at a time? I am assuming the fastest wind I can get in the MXUS DD, which is 370 rpm (296 rpm loaded)?

I need to spend more time with the simulator... Assuming the fast wind MXUS is similar to the 9C 2806, the rough numbers look to hit 38.8 MPH with this setup and overheats in 34 minutes, which is much longer than any runs I would be going on.

I'm going to give you a reality check. For 35.5mph in a 26" drive wheel, you'll need a motor that will give you 460rpm under load. Do the math if you don't believe me. 26*3.14*60*460/12/5280=35.5628mph. I think this is just asking too much from a 500W rated motor, especially when you can get a 1000W motor proven to do it and more for a lot less.

wesnewell said:

I'm going to give you a reality check. For 35.5mph in a 26" drive wheel, you'll need a motor that will give you 460rpm under load. Do the math if you don't believe me. 26*3.14*60*460/12/5280=35.5628mph. I think this is just asking too much from a 500W rated motor, especially when you can get a 1000W motor proven to do it and more for a lot less.

Click to expand...

Hi Wesnewell!

Does your set up do Regen braking? We have spoken before over the years. Nice to read your posts.
I've noticed that you have a lot of passion for the Yesa Motor and the Hua Tong controller.
The only reason that I haven't tried the Yesa motor is because it's not Rotor ready and I have to
pay for their controller and Lead Acid PB charger that I might not have any use for.

Tommy L sends.....

wesnewell said:

I'm going to give you a reality check. For 35.5mph in a 26" drive wheel, you'll need a motor that will give you 460rpm under load. Do the math if you don't believe me. 26*3.14*60*460/12/5280=35.5628mph. I think this is just asking too much from a 500W rated motor, especially when you can get a 1000W motor proven to do it and more for a lot less.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the input, I welcome the reality checks before I pour money into this project! Better a reality check now than $1,000 from now...

I am actually planning on running a 20" wheel with a moped tire, I was under the impression that those MXUS DD motors were good for putting extra power through. Were I to run a 26" wheel, the Yescom motor was high on the list but I figured by the time I had it laced into a 20" rim and bought a new controller the price would be about the same as the EM3ev kit without having to go through the extra hassle...

Looking at the Golden Motor site, I can get the HBS48R-1000W motor alone for $179 shipped, so that might be a good route to go and piece my kit together if the MXUS kit cannot handle the power.

It also sounds like the 9C 2805 pre-laced into a 20" rim from Grin at the $195 sale price would have been nice, but out of stock.

Well I know that even though I like those GM PRO 901 kits (Yescom and others) Im standing by my original statement. Im getting a geared motor as its better suited for what I do when hauling items using the trailers. Now as for top speed, I could live with reaching 30 mph max using a geared motor for small bursts. The 901 easily can reach 30+ mph as its wound for speed, but I need a torque motor more. This kit no doubt can be run at higher volts but even it has a limit that it will run before you kill it and as I said I do like it and all it does with the stock controller. My only complaint about it is I just wish they had all of the controller features enabled on it although you could either mod it yourself, pay to have it done for you or just buy one already wired and ready to use. I have looked at the Smart Pie motor but because of the controller problems Im not buying it now which is a shame as a DD-T motor would be awesome and I know Clyte has them but are priced out of my range. I know Amped has a geared motor that can handle up to 60v which is the same as the 901s controller can handle and can reach 24/25 mph top speed at 48v which is pretty good actually but not quite the 30 mph id like to have it at to be in the 30mph club.

Tommy L said:

Hi Wesnewell!

Does your set up do Regen braking? We have spoken before over the years. Nice to read your posts.
I've noticed that you have a lot of passion for the Yesa Motor and the Hua Tong controller.
The only reason that I haven't tried the Yesa motor is because it's not Rotor ready and I have to
pay for their controller and Lead Acid PB charger that I might not have any use for.

Click to expand...

Yes, it does regen braking. The controller also supports EABS braking but I use regen instead. The motors are Goldenmotor (or clones) and are rock solid. I've got close to 8k miles on mine. Theirs nothing wrong with the stock controllers. They are just limited to 63V max and I wanted more speed. They also don't have any features enabled. The one I got with my 48V 1000W kit was an EB215 controller and supported regen, cruise, etc., but I don't know what they are shipping today. I used the charger to charge my 14s lipo pack for a while, but basically, it's pretty useless anyway at only ~60v 2.5A.

maurtis said:

I am actually planning on running a 20" wheel with a moped tire, I was under the impression that those MXUS DD motors were good for putting extra power through. Were I to run a 26" wheel, the Yescom motor was high on the list but I figured by the time I had it laced into a 20" rim and bought a new controller the price would be about the same as the EM3ev kit without having to go through the extra hassle...

Click to expand...

I don't know what kind of rpm you're going to need with that moped wheel to reach 35mph, but if the circumference is less than that of a 26" wheel (81.65") you may have problems getting up to speed.

Tommy L said:

wesnewell said:

I'm going to give you a reality check. For 35.5mph in a 26" drive wheel, you'll need a motor that will give you 460rpm under load. Do the math if you don't believe me. 26*3.14*60*460/12/5280=35.5628mph. I think this is just asking too much from a 500W rated motor, especially when you can get a 1000W motor proven to do it and more for a lot less.

Click to expand...

Hi Wesnewell!

Does your set up do Regen braking? We have spoken before over the years. Nice to read your posts.
I've noticed that you have a lot of passion for the Yesa Motor and the Hua Tong controller.
The only reason that I haven't tried the Yesa motor is because it's not Rotor ready and I have to
pay for their controller and Lead Acid PB charger that I might not have any use for.

Tommy L sends.....

Click to expand...

Tommy,
I have 3 1000 watt kits from yescomusa. I paid 284 less 10% (eBay10 code at checkout). I sold the original controllers on eBay for $60.00 each. The original chargers for $30.00 each. The original throttles for $15.00 each. The bike rack and bags for $20.00 each. I sold the tire and tube for $20.00. When all was said and done all I wanted was the motor which cost me ~ $120.00 or so. This is steal for a 1000 watt setup. I purchased a Lyen 12 fet, CA DP and run 24s2p . I hit 55 MPH with this setup and could not be happier. The best value on the market. I have put 2500 miles on my newest build and not a single issue.

Blackssr said:

Tommy,
I have 3 1000 watt kits from yescomusa. I paid 284 less 10% (eBay10 code at checkout). I sold the original controllers on eBay for $60.00 each. The original chargers for $30.00 each. The original throttles for $15.00 each. The bike rack and bags for $20.00 each. I sold the tire and tube for $20.00. When all was said and done all I wanted was the motor which cost me ~ $120.00 or so. This is steal for a 1000 watt setup. I purchased a Lyen 12 fet, CA DP and run 24s2p . I hit 55 MPH with this setup and could not be happier. The best value on the market. I have put 2500 miles on my newest build and not a single issue.

Click to expand...

That is cool! Much appreciate the info!
I dump around 4-5kw into my 9C2810. My daily controller dumps 2.5kw. The 9C2810 has been a sold unit too, and
it has a rear rotor But nice to hear there are other options. :wink:

Please to meet you!

Tommy L sends......

Tommy L said:

Blackssr said:

Tommy,
I have 3 1000 watt kits from yescomusa. I paid 284 less 10% (eBay10 code at checkout). I sold the original controllers on eBay for $60.00 each. The original chargers for $30.00 each. The original throttles for $15.00 each. The bike rack and bags for $20.00 each. I sold the tire and tube for $20.00. When all was said and done all I wanted was the motor which cost me ~ $120.00 or so. This is steal for a 1000 watt setup. I purchased a Lyen 12 fet, CA DP and run 24s2p . I hit 55 MPH with this setup and could not be happier. The best value on the market. I have put 2500 miles on my newest build and not a single issue.

Click to expand...

That is cool! Much appreciate the info!
I dump around 4-5kw into my 9C2810. My daily controller dumps 2.5kw. The 9C2810 has been a sold unit too, and
it has a rear rotor But nice to hear there are other options. :wink:

Please to meet you!

Tommy L sends......

Click to expand...

Like this!

Thanks for the input fellas! As much as I want eventually to run a 20" wheel (21" with the Pirelli ML75 moped tire), it looks like it might be easier to just start with the 26" yescom wheel. And if I find that there is top speed to spare with this setup and my needs, have it laced into a 20" wheel later...

I just placed my order for a Lyen 12 Fet controller with regen set up for 24s, so we are on our way!

maurtis said:

Thanks for the input fellas! As much as I want eventually to run a 20" wheel (21" with the Pirelli ML75 moped tire), it looks like it might be easier to just start with the 26" yescom wheel. And if I find that there is top speed to spare with this setup and my needs, have it laced into a 20" wheel later...

I just placed my order for a Lyen 12 Fet controller with regen set up for 24s, so we are on our way!

Click to expand...

I hope this helps some members out there with a similar setup like mine. After about 1/2 hour or so and following the worksheet that Lyen set me I determined the correct wire combo for my Yescomusa ( the LA Shop) 1000 wattt ebay kit. The motors runs smooth as it did before with a no amp load of about .80-1.5.

Hall Controller - Hall Motor
Blue - Blue
Yellow - Green
Green - Yellow

Phase Controller - Phase Motor
Blue - Blue
Yellow - Green
Green - Yellow

Blackssr said:

I have 3 1000 watt kits from yescomusa. I purchased a Lyen 12 fet, CA DP and run 24s2p . I hit 55 MPH with this setup and could not be happier.

Click to expand...

This speed just doesn't sound right to me. I'm running 24s2p using a 40A controller and only get ~45mph. Does my 270lbs make that much difference, or do you have your controller set to 120% pulling lots of amps?

wesnewell said:

Blackssr said:

I have 3 1000 watt kits from yescomusa. I purchased a Lyen 12 fet, CA DP and run 24s2p . I hit 55 MPH with this setup and could not be happier.

Click to expand...

This speed just doesn't sound right to me. I'm running 24s2p using a 40A controller and only get ~45mph. Does my 270lbs make that much difference, or do you have your controller set to 120% pulling lots of amps?

Click to expand...

I live in Florida with all flat roads. I use Michelin Pilot Sport HD 2.0"/2.3" Tires. Speed is set 110% @ 55 amps. I weigh in at 185 or so. My bike is an Ev Global ebike. I have a high speed cooling fan blowing directly on the controller, this keeps very cool under high loads.

Guess I need to lose a bunch of weight and/or raise amperage if I want to hit 50mph. Nice to know they are capable of it.