Cycle Analyst V3 preview and first beta release

Can CA3 be used as an on off for controller?
Can a switch be used with one of aux cables on CA?
Or system shut down thru CA itself? Sorry if this has already been addressed.
Thanks for any answers

Hi guys,

Just got my MAC from cell_man along with a V3 CA. Went for two rides. Worked great.

Now the CA is stuck in a boot loop. When I connect the battery, it simply comes up with the initial screen indicating Prlm5 and then goes back to that. Disconnected throttle, sensors from motor, etc...no love. I can get into setup by holding the right button down, but I don't see any reset anything. I didn't change anything before this happened.

WTF, Mate? Any help would be appreciated.

dimpirate said:

Can CA3 be used as an on off for controller?
Can a switch be used with one of aux cables on CA?
Or system shut down thru CA itself? Sorry if this has already been addressed.
Thanks for any answers

Click to expand...

Why don't you start reading Tekletktik's excellent manual? It will answer all of your questions about the CA, ebikes, and life in general..
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=571345#p571345

In brief, the CA will not turn off your controller, in whatever way. It can reduce the throttle to zero under certain predefined circumstances.

Trailblazer said:

Hi guys,

Just got my MAC from cell_man along with a V3 CA. Went for two rides. Worked great.

Now the CA is stuck in a boot loop. When I connect the battery, it simply comes up with the initial screen indicating Prlm5 and then goes back to that. Disconnected throttle, sensors from motor, etc...no love. I can get into setup by holding the right button down, but I don't see any reset anything. I didn't change anything before this happened.

WTF, Mate? Any help would be appreciated.

Click to expand...

Have you tried reflashing to an earlier or later beta? As you know, the V3 is still in beta stage, and this thread is all about fixing any issues in the next software iteration. Reflashing is part of that package as far as I am concerned.

Hmmm. I just updated to Prelim 6 and input all my parameters. No problem.

Then I'm not sure what happened next (cycled power, removed programming plug from CA, neither or both) but now the screen looks like this when I power up.

UPDATE: After numerous attempts I eventually got it to program again. Whew! I don't know what happened...

hjns said:

Have you tried reflashing to an earlier or later beta? As you know, the V3 is still in beta stage, and this thread is all about fixing any issues in the next software iteration. Reflashing is part of that package as far as I am concerned.

Click to expand...

Thanks for your response! I would love to, but cell_man didn't have the flashing cable. I kinda thought that I wouldn't even need it, like it was a normal usb cable. Anyway, I don't have that or I definitely would have started there. I agree, beta firmware is just that, beta.

So does everyone get their cables from Grin cyclery or is it easy to make my own? Thanks again.

Apologies for delay in responding - Big Problems with (aging) laptops and very intermittent iNet access....

Luge_a_foin said:

I've decided to reroute the throttle to the CA.... I've derived the CA's throttle output to the controler's input (as I suppose there is possibly a diode in the controller). I use the Pass-Through conf.

Click to expand...

Luge_a_foin said:

In full open loop (disconnected from the controller) the CA output is correct (range 0 -> 4.99V). But when I plug the controller I cannot go to more than 2.1V. The measured resistance of the controller between Gnd & Thr Input is 5.3kOhm. Could this fit with the CA limit to 2.1V? What could be the additional tests to confirm that? And what would be the possible solution? To replace a resistor?
Thanks for your help.

Click to expand...

Ok - thanks for the tests. The good news is that it looks like the V3 firmware is working and you have everything configured fine. But - it definitely looks like an electrical issue: oddly, the resistance you report should not be causing such a large effect.

So - moving on to wiring and such:

• Just to verify - you are using the CA-DP connector with the (green) ThO signal re-directed into the controller throttle input instead of passing ThO through the CA-DP connector to the controller as originally wired - correct?
• Are you using an external shunt or other custom wiring or just the CA-DP connector to supply power to the CA (that is, directly from the controller)?
  • If your CA is not getting power through the CA-DP cable, please check the voltage with the motor at WOT between the CA Gnd and the Gnd connection of your controller throttle input connection.
• Just for electrical comparison purposes, are you using a hall or resistive throttle (Magura)?

Justin does not always have an opportunity to look in on this thread. To get the quickest response, you may want to email him directly. Your investigations so far and the answers you have provided cover a lot of ground so the situation is now much clearer, but this is not looking like one of the more common issues... time to go to The Source

hjns said:

dimpirate said:

Can CA3 be used as an on off for controller?
Can a switch be used with one of aux cables on CA?
Or system shut down thru CA itself?

Click to expand...

In brief, the CA will not turn off your controller, in whatever way. It can reduce the throttle to zero under certain predefined circumstances.

Click to expand...

As hjns notes, the CA cannot actually power down the controller - in fact, it generally gets its power from the controller via the CA-DP connector.

Normally, you might use the controller 'ignition' wires as a kill switch. This shuts off the controller logic so it's brain-dead. The FET and capacitor driver section is then quiescent and draws negligible power.

However, there may be applications where you really just want the throttle to be inactive and there are a number of means to accomplish this.
For example:

• Using the CA, you might switch the Aux POT input to ground which with the proper configuration would kill the CA ThO signal.
• Perhaps a more failsafe means (if your controller has a CA connector) is to wire up the CA as described in the Guide so that it operates normally. Then attach a switch to the now unused Throttle Overide input of the controller CA connector and switch that line to ground to suppress the throttle. This works whether or not there is a CA used...

I use the second technique to switch between one and two motors on a 2WD bike - grounding the Throttle Overide of one controller allows the CA/throttle keep working for the other motor/controller but the 'switched' controller becomes inactive because its Throttle In signal is clamped to 0v by the Throttle Overide input. This gives one/two motor contol just using the existing controller connectors to give sort of 'super limiting'.

So - there are some options similar to 'powering down' that might work for you depending on your actual situation...

Trailblazer said:

hjns said:

As you know, the V3 is still in beta stage, ... Reflashing is part of that package as far as I am concerned.

Click to expand...

Thanks for your response! I would love to, but cell_man didn't have the flashing cable. I kinda thought that I wouldn't even need it, like it was a normal usb cable. Anyway, I don't have that or I definitely would have started there. I agree, beta firmware is just that, beta.

So does everyone get their cables from Grin cyclery or is it easy to make my own? Thanks again.

Click to expand...

Without a cable there is no means to convert the Beta V3 to the production form. It's a must-have.

The programming cable is a stock FTDI USB to TTL serial cable. These are much simpler than the tricky business with the Infineon programming cables and you can certainly tack your own together, make adapters, use alternate cables, etc, but these efforts generally result in a lot of wasted time posting trying to get things to work. Just buy it. Please see the Unofficial Guide or the Grin Tech V3 page for ordering and driver information.

A small note: in the release notes for Prelim6, Justin omitted mention of two small points that he posted earlier in pre-Maker-Faire posts.
FWIW to gather change info in one place:

• The Quadrature encoding configuration (PAS-Quadrtr) has been eliminated.
• All ramping units have been converted to V/Sec from Sec/V with appropriate changes to the defaults.
  
  You will need to convert your settings if copying values from a Prelim5 configuration. See this post for How-To.

I am wondering how the limit flags are intended to behave in regards to once one of the five limits have been reached, is the CA supposed to revert back to the lower case display as soon as the limiting condition is no longer in effect? In my case the "A" is shown as a limit flag and will not reset to a lower case when the throttle is backed off or at rest. The "P" limit flag however behaves as I would expect with the upper case P being displayed while its limit is reached but then the P returns to its lower case after backing off on the throttle. After the P returns to its lower case but the amp limit flag still stays on displayed in upper case so I am a bit confused?

I have scoured the manual and have not found this issue discussed as of yet. I am using the new V3 CA with a 50v 14.3ah Lith Mang & Infineon EB3 controller from cellman for a mac 10t set up as a mid drive.

I have done the preliminary set ups and things are working pretty good except for some lag at off the line starts and also some surging when under big loads in the lower RPM range. I have not yet addressed the Ramping adjustments or Gain adjustments that I fell my sort out these 2 problems, but I am wanting to understand this issue with the limit flag staying on for the amp limit before I tackle the fine tuning of things.

Any feedback much appreciated............wayne

waynebergman said:

... is the CA supposed to revert back to the lower case display as soon as the limiting condition is no longer in effect?

Click to expand...

Yes!

In my case the "A" is shown as a limit flag and will not reset to a lower case when the throttle is backed off or at rest.... the amp limit flag still stays on displayed in upper case...

I have scoured the manual and have not found this issue discussed as of yet.

...things are working pretty good except for ... some surging when under big loads in the lower RPM range

Click to expand...

Since you are mentioning some surging at low rpms, there is some limiting or closed-loop control in play - I'm thinking that you may be set up for Current Throttle. This limit flag behavior is normal if you have ThrI->CntrlMode = Current and is explained in Section 6.1 "Closed Loop Throttle Modes" under "Limit Flag Behavior".

BTW - You may find the PDF 'Find' tool helpful at times. In this case, searching for 'limit flag' will get you to two explanations of this behavior. Of course, if you aren't lucky enough to use the right search words, this is just another source of frustration, but it's worth a try... :wink:

teklektik said:

Apologies for delay in responding - Big Problems with (aging) laptops and very intermittent iNet access....

Click to expand...

No pb. And it is the week-end...

teklektik said:

• Just to verify - you are using the CA-DP connector with the (green) ThO signal re-directed into the controller throttle input instead of passing ThO through the CA-DP connector to the controller as originally wired - correct?

Click to expand...

• 
  Correct.
  
  

  teklektik said:

  [*]Are you using an external shunt or other custom wiring or just the CA-DP connector to supply power to the CA (that is, directly from the controller)?

  Click to expand...

  Only the CA-DP.
  
  

  teklektik said:

  [*]Just for electrical comparison purposes, are you using a hall or resistive throttle (Magura)?

  Click to expand...

Only a basic hall throttle

p.s. and I've sent a mail to the source.

Luge_a_foin said:

p.s. and I've sent a mail to the source.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the updates - that clarified the electrical situation. Hopefully this information will jump start Justin's efforts to solve this. Please post back when you get this resolved - this may be stuff for the Guide...

teklektik said:

waynebergman said:

... is the CA supposed to revert back to the lower case display as soon as the limiting condition is no longer in effect?

Click to expand...

Yes!

In my case the "A" is shown as a limit flag and will not reset to a lower case when the throttle is backed off or at rest.... the amp limit flag still stays on displayed in upper case...

I have scoured the manual and have not found this issue discussed as of yet.

...things are working pretty good except for ... some surging when under big loads in the lower RPM range

Click to expand...

Since you are mentioning some surging at low rpms, there is some limiting or closed-loop control in play - I'm thinking that you may be set up for Current Throttle. This limit flag behavior is normal if you have ThrI->CntrlMode = Current and is explained in Section 6.1 "Closed Loop Throttle Modes" under "Limit Flag Behavior".

BTW - You may find the PDF 'Find' tool helpful at times. In this case, searching for 'limit flag' will get you to two explanations of this behavior. Of course, if you aren't lucky enough to use the right search words, this is just another source of frustration, but it's worth a try... :wink:

Click to expand...

Thank you Teklektik, yes I realize now things were set up from point of purchase with the Closed-Loop throttle mode in place. Also, now reading a bit about how the Closed Loop mode works I have raised the "P" limit so it did not conflict with the "A" limit and this has helped the surging so it has almost disappeared. If I use my gears that are at my disposal through my mid drive system like I should be doing anyways I will have no surging at all. I can force it to surge a tiny bit by hitting the throttle full at slow speeds in top gear but I should not do this anyway. So problem solved......Awesome. Thanks very much Teklektik for the direction. There is still a slight hesitation with a bit too long of a lag time from hitting the throttle to when you feel the power coming on but reading the V3 manual I am sure I can figure this minor detail out by changing some of the settings..........wayne

teklektik said:

Trailblazer said:

Thanks for your response! I would love to, but cell_man didn't have the flashing cable. I kinda thought that I wouldn't even need it, like it was a normal usb cable. Anyway, I don't have that or I definitely would have started there. I agree, beta firmware is just that, beta.

So does everyone get their cables from Grin cyclery or is it easy to make my own? Thanks again.

Click to expand...

Without a cable there is no means to convert the Beta V3 to the production form. It's a must-have.

The programming cable is a stock FTDI USB to TTL serial cable. These are much simpler than the tricky business with the Infineon programming cables and you can certainly tack your own together, make adapters, use alternate cables, etc, but these efforts generally result in a lot of wasted time posting trying to get things to work. Just buy it. Please see the Unofficial Guide or the Grin Tech V3 page for ordering and driver information.

Click to expand...

OK, gotcha'. My unit is stuck in a boot loop. For my problem, do you think that reflashing would solve it, or is this a 'send it in' type problem. Have you ever seen this? Is there any way to reset it back to it's default settings for the installed firmware? I didn't see anything in the manual.
Thanks, Teklektik for your help.

Trailblazer said:

teklektik said:

Trailblazer said:

Thanks for your response! I would love to, but cell_man didn't have the flashing cable. I kinda thought that I wouldn't even need it, like it was a normal usb cable. Anyway, I don't have that or I definitely would have started there. I agree, beta firmware is just that, beta.

So does everyone get their cables from Grin cyclery or is it easy to make my own? Thanks again.

Click to expand...

Without a cable there is no means to convert the Beta V3 to the production form. It's a must-have.

The programming cable is a stock FTDI USB to TTL serial cable. These are much simpler than the tricky business with the Infineon programming cables and you can certainly tack your own together, make adapters, use alternate cables, etc, but these efforts generally result in a lot of wasted time posting trying to get things to work. Just buy it. Please see the Unofficial Guide or the Grin Tech V3 page for ordering and driver information.

Click to expand...

OK, gotcha'. My unit is stuck in a boot loop. For my problem, do you think that reflashing would solve it, or is this a 'send it in' type problem. Have you ever seen this? Is there any way to reset it back to it's default settings for the installed firmware? I didn't see anything in the manual.
Thanks, Teklektik for your help.

Click to expand...

hi trailblazer
i had several flashing issues as well. those where STRANGE. really. flashing it to a new beta showed totally out of range volts, and also other values where off. i had to reflash to CA3B19.hex. it's NOT a "noCal" version, which means that your setting will be OVERWRITTEN. you have to go through ALL the setup again. wheel size, battery, motor poles .... you name it. so in case your CA is still useable: download the settings xls file and enter all setup values into it for reference.
then reflash with B19 and then you can flash a new beta version.
as i already said: only flash software working for me was a very old 1.0 version. i don't know why. i tried several usb-serial converters, which did produce wrong TTL levels. so i connected the CA to a "real" com-port using a max232 to get correct TTL levels. still i can only use this single one flash software.
good luck. i hope this did help!

Trailblazer said:

For my problem, do you think that reflashing would solve it, or is this a 'send it in' type problem. Have you ever seen this?

Click to expand...

I have seen this exact screen before and it has been reported on the thread - just never spontaneously occurring. As izeman related, in these cases a re-flash always fixed it. If you send it back the first thing they will do is re-flash it, so it might as well be done by your hands.

So - you might email Grin Tech about you issue and request that they process your cable order with all due haste. They are good about this stuff and you will get it really quickly. Do the flash and chances are that all will be well.

But - here's the thing - Setup expects the values of certain parameters to be in certain ranges -- it always stores 'good' values and so expects them to still be good when it fetches them again. In select cases, if a stored value gets trashed for some reason, Setup may refuse to operate properly (you can't save a new value) because it can't understand the old wonky value.

The problem arises because the 'NoCal' firmware versions like Prelim6 don't really initialize all values. If a bogus calibration value lingers, things may not work 100%. Justin has fixed a lot of these entry issues, and there aren't any new posted problems, but here it is just in case you have a second dose of Bad Karma...

If this happens you will need to do as izeman outlined and go back to B19 (available here) which is a full memory image and will initialize/clobber everything - including all factory calibrations. This is really a last resort. But once done, you can then flash with Prelim6 which drops in the new code but leaves a few calibration values unchanged and with acceptable values as set by B19. With a bit of luck, you won't need to go all the way back to B19....

EDIT - Oops - got your issue and rscamp's screen confused - I actually haven't seen your exact failure before, but I think the re-flash remains the best next step.

teklektik said:

John in CR said:

Has anyone else tried dual controllers with the CA3 throttle by wire?

Click to expand...

Yep. I built my bike on the CA V2 and upgraded it to V3 last year as soon as the V3 pre-production units were available. I am feeding two EB312 controllers through a common external shunt for the CA and using closed loop 'power throttle' mode. Works nice.

It didn't work well for me with EB2xx Infineon type controllers. It worked but the controllers seemed to fight over the throttle signal and not share equally.

Click to expand...

We have slightly different situations - I have 2WD with gear motors (only 3.3kW) and you have 2-controller 1WD (22kW) which probably makes my situation a bit more tolerant than yours. I spent some time on a test incline adjusting the controllers so they they yielded fairly close performance climbing from a dead start. This resulted in slightly different controller configurations - probably due to shunt and other component variations.

The situation is puzzling since you are not reporting controller interaction issues when running the throttle with direct connect to the the two controllers (only with the CA). How are you determining that one controller is detecting more throttle than the other? How is you CA obtaining power and shunt? There may be GND reference differences between the controllers when under load that might skew the apparent throttle for one controller if the CA draws it's ground from the other. Fairly serious GND reference issues with dual controllers, a single throttle, and high-amp motors have been reported in other threads - your issue might be similar but tied to the CA Gnd.

I ran it for a while and I seem to have messed something up in the CA3's throttle circuitry in the process. I was able to get home, but the throttle became like an on/off switch,...

Click to expand...

So - did (or does) the Diagnostic Screen show the proper OUT voltage? Does this coincide with the actual voltage output as measured with a DMM or is the output voltage wonky?

Click to expand...

Thanks Teklektik,
The controllers didn't play well together simply paralleled either. I'll try checking the OUT voltage like you suggest. BTW, they run with an external shunt, and I tie the battery wires together in parallel as close to the controllers as possible with same lengths and gauges after the split. The shunts of the 2 are pretty close at 0.63 and 0.66 mOhms, so I haven't worried about programming them differently. The Wuxi controllers I ran before were off in the shunt after my mods by 20%, since one pumped 115A peak and the other 95A peak, and motor and controllers were happy with throttle wires directly paralleled, so I never bothered opening them up to match the shunts better. I look forward to hooking one of my CA3s to the Wuxi's.

teklektik said:

Trailblazer said:

For my problem, do you think that reflashing would solve it, or is this a 'send it in' type problem. Have you ever seen this?

Click to expand...

EDIT - Oops - got your issue and rscamp's screen confused - I actually haven't seen your exact failure before, but I think the re-flash remains the best next step.

Click to expand...

Thanks for your response. Darn. I was hoping that this was a known problem. OK, so I cobbled together a cable of sorts from my Infineon controller programming cable. Justin mentions that it can be used here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37964&start=390#p598155

It has a Prolific chip in it-not the FTDI. The programming software never saw the CA. The CA kept coming up with "....PC Connection" but the programming software just times out. I couldn't program any of the versions, B19 or the new Prelm6.

izeman said:

...as i already said: only flash software working for me was a very old 1.0 version.

Click to expand...

I can't find that older v1 version anywhere. I'm assuming that you have it?

Trailblazer said:

I can't find that older v1 version anywhere. I'm assuming that you have it?

Click to expand...

pm'd you

Hi all,

Just wanted to mention that I flashed one of my CAs successfully with the new software. Testing will continue tomorrow. However, here are some gripes....

• Still arbitrary which values are overwritten and which not. It is good that my calibration value is not overwritten. It still sucks that my total number of charge cycles and my total distance is emptied. As these are typically numbers that keep changing. I don't mind re-entering my throttle-in and out values, ramp values, or battery values. These usually don't change, and it is nice to experiment with these.
• Still have to wait for motor temp to show up after ah cycling. Good thing that the negative loopback for temperature is working, but it does not satisfy my curiosity while riding uphill for a while. Will have to see how the improved temp curve is holding up in real life. With ambient temps now in the 20 degrees Celcius, my favourite hill will get my cromotor to 130 degrees within 15 minutes. I have now decreased the threshold down to 70 degrees, and maximum temp at 130. We will see how it goes.
• ramp values of V/sec takes some adjusting, but is actually more intuitive. I changed everything to 99.99V/sec for immediate effect. Will report my experiences.
• Nothing else at this moment. It is really a very neat and intelligent device. If one would really want to start knitpicking, it would be the bunch of wires coming out of the CA. Would prefer some connectors in the back of the case to connect my throttle, ebrake and controller.

Trailblazer said:

OK, so I cobbled together a cable of sorts from my Infineon controller programming cable. Justin mentions that it can be used here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37964&start=390#p598155

It has a Prolific chip in it-not the FTDI. The programming software never saw the CA. The CA kept coming up with "....PC Connection" but the programming software just times out. I couldn't program any of the versions, B19 or the new Prelm6.

izeman said:

...as i already said: only flash software working for me was a very old 1.0 version.

Click to expand...

I can't find that older v1 version anywhere. I'm assuming that you have it?

Click to expand...

Yep - you should have little difficulty getting that to work. It's a little harder to program an Infineon with a CA cable, but also doable...

I will PM you with the older downloader and you can give it a test drive...

EDIT - Oops - I see izeman PMed you already while I was making coffee. Good deal.

hjns said:

• ramp values of V/sec takes some adjusting, but is actually more intuitive. I changed everything to 99.99V/sec for immediate effect. Will report my experiences.

Click to expand...

You can transfer your old ramp values by taking the inverse to convert sec/v to v/sec. (Press the "1/x" key on your calculator). For example:

If you previously had a P5 ramp value of 1.25sec/v,
the revised P6 value should be 1/(1.25sec/v) = 0.80 v/sec.

I am wondering if I am understanding the UpRamp settings correctly. I assumed from what I read in the manual that a lower number entered for UpRamp would speed up the power application. I am wanting to get rid of a lag time from throttle application till the power hits the wheel. I tried to lower the UpRamp from .05 to .02 but the CA will only let me lower it to .03. I also was under the understanding that the FastRamp setting should be a lower number than the UpRamp setting but here also when trying for a lower number the CA would not except my entry and reset it to .03. So I guess I have 4 questions.

1. Is it the UpRAmp that will give me less of a lag time for throttle response to the wheel? I could only change the UpRamp setting it a tiny bit from .05 to .03 so I dont see much difference if any after changing the settings to this new number.

2.Is it correct that a lower number setting quickens the application of power? The manual implies a higher number will smooth out the application of power.

3. Maybe this ramping has more to do with the power curve once the power has reached the wheel and not so much with the lag time I am struggling with. For me its not so much that it takes and smoothes out the power at start ups but the speed at which it first reachs the wheel. I am fine to dish out the smoothness of the power on my own but I dont like this lag time before any power at all reach the wheel. Any ideas on this?

4. Any ideas why the setting I entered like .02 or .01 would get reset to .03?

Thanks Wayne