Dahon Matrix with Cyclone 500w

The7 said:

Wondering what is reduction ratio for the Cyclone motor?
It seems that the reduction ratio is 15 or more.
If it is 20 and the drive wheel spins at 300 rpm, the motor will spin at 6000rpm which may give a much louder noise than an direct drive motor at 300rpm.

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Just my $.02 on this, a friend has a 5304 @48V and I have my BB drive with a Kolmorgen w/ planetary lashout geardown. Mu bike is quieter than his, when he ronde mine his comments were

"Wow I am surprised how quiet it is I always read that chain drives were loud."

A well tuned chain drive can be vey quiet... What I have heard about the cyclones is that they require a lot of "fine tuning" to not spit the chain constantly..

@The7: wow, great calculations, thanks for the information. the rear cassette is an 11-32T, so with those calculations, the 32T gear will push me at about 9.9mph, guess that leaves me a bit more torque for these hills

@sean: thanks for the info, any recommendations on what i can do to keep the chain quiet and healthy?

hopbot said:

@The7: wow, great calculations, thanks for the information. the rear cassette is an 11-32T, so with those calculations, the 32T gear will push me at about 9.9mph, guess that leaves me a bit more torque for these hills

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This is one great advantage of utilizing the rear gear ratio of your motor.
The torque could be multiplied by over 2 times.
If 14T is normal D as cars,
then 11T is the OD, and
32T is L.

@The7: Thanks again for the info! i was chatting with someone this weekend while riding and we both realized that, as kids, no one told us that simple logic, and it wasn't until much later that we figured it out. maybe i was a slow kid

OK folks, another update...

After the chain jumped off the chainring this weekend, i decided to do the same mod i saw in the photo of Jim's bike mentioned in a previous post - he installed an idler wheel from a chain tensioning kit to keep the chain from wobbling and jumping off the chainring.

I found the MRP chain guide wheels at a somewhat local bike shop and got a 3.5" corner bracket from the local hardware store. i drilled the bracket to mount on the existing motor mounting screws and then drilled a hole for the idler wheel so that it is perfectly placed for the 4th gear (touches just enough to guide the chain), touches very lightly in the highest gear, and provides the most pressure (but as little as i could) to the chain when in the lowest gear (8), since that is the one that was giving me the most trouble.

With minimal tools i went at it and i think it worked out ok. i want to cut off the excess on the upright portion of the bracket (it was getting late and i didn't want to wake the neighborhood) but it seems to be in order now.

I replaced a link in the chain that had really bent a lot the last time the chain skipped off the chainring, and i think it was my fault really for probably doing a shoddy job of adding links to the chain. i was much more careful tonight.

After all the tweaks, i ran it full throttle on the stand and went through the gears and it seemed to work well. it had previously slipped off in these tests so let's hope when i take it out next it will stay on.

oh yeah, before i went on my park ride, i installed a cycleanalyst. i don't yet appreciate all the numbers i'm seeing on the screen, other than the mph, but i'll hopefully learn more about what to look for soon.

hey there all, another update:
with the new chain guide wheel on i went to a meeting about 2.5 miles away that included 2 hills listed between 10-18% grade on the SF bike map (i need to measure them!). it's usually about a 15 minute car drive, maybe a little less. i was excited and nervous to try it as i had to be at the meeting at a specific time and i was hoping that my chain wouldn't break or fall off as it had done the couple of days before in testing (my own shoddy chain building was at fault ). also, this was my first real outing on the bike that wasn't just fun or testing.

anyway, it went off without a hitch! 29.1 mph at one point and was even shadowed by a truck that must've realized how fast i was going on a bike, and not wearing spandex

i peddled up the hills and was able to maintain above 10mph on both of them, so i got some exercise but didn't show up to the meeting covered in sweat

i ate away a roughly 3Ah on the battery i think (i forgot to note the exact Ah on the CycleAnalyst before i left) and overall i was ecstatic since i got there in about 15 minutes and didn't use any gas.

On the way back to my home/office i actually think i was faster than i would have been while driving as i was able to take advantage of a bike trail. also, not having to climb two huge hills saved time, so i got back in about 10 minutes.

i watched the wattage reading on the CycleAnalyst from time to time on the ride and i was hitting the high 700s. i've heard that the Cyclone motors will shut off of you get too high, and that they will pull in the high 900s. not yet really sure how to deal with these numbers yet

my business partner was amazed and impressed and even took it for a spin - it convinced me and a few others that this really is a viable replacement for a lot of gas + car driving. anyway, thats the update. thanks again guys for the inspiration! gonna get some more parts to improve the ride and will post pics soon.

very nice - i'm impressed!

i've always thought that chain drive would be very efficient in terms of a light bike

i'm just waiting for people to test one for road type bikes

(while i build my electric mountain bike )

Thanks BiGH! While the bike doesn't feel light to me, i've heard that the hub motors can be pretty heavy so i guess i'm on the lighter side. i'm hoping one day soon to get one of those <a href="http://www.atcnuvinci.com/products_bicycle.php" target="_blank">Nuvinci</a> hubs to reduce some of the action on the chain. i do a lot of shifting and sometimes i worry about the wear and tear on the chain and sprockets.

hopbot said:

Thanks BiGH! While the bike doesn't feel light to me, i've heard that the hub motors can be pretty heavy so i guess i'm on the lighter side. i'm hoping one day soon to get one of those <a href="http://www.atcnuvinci.com/products_bicycle.php" target="_blank">Nuvinci</a> hubs to reduce some of the action on the chain. i do a lot of shifting and sometimes i worry about the wear and tear on the chain and sprockets.

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How much weight could you reduce by using NUvincl? Not much!

hopbot said:

Thanks BiGH! While the bike doesn't feel light to me, i've heard that the hub motors can be pretty heavy so i guess i'm on the lighter side. i'm hoping one day soon to get one of those <a href="http://www.atcnuvinci.com/products_bicycle.php" target="_blank">Nuvinci</a> hubs to reduce some of the action on the chain. i do a lot of shifting and sometimes i worry about the wear and tear on the chain and sprockets.

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yeah i agree - there is a lot of promise in those hubs will make chain skipping a much smaller problem that is if the hubs are up to the challenge. My bike is fairly tricky to lift. It is possible, but the hub motor is definatly heavy (8kg) batteries just make it worse!

@The7: yeah, not sure if it would save on weight, but i wouldn't get my hands dirty dealing with chains as often every time i shift i sort of tense up thinking the chain will slip or break or something

@BiGH: ah, yeah 8kg is up there. my motor, while wimpy in comparison to yours, weighs a little under 3.5kg. i think the batteries are about 5kg.

if a courier bike is the same as a flat bar road bike - al la a Giant CRX style model - you might have issues mounting it. I'm very interested in doing something similar. The problem is that the rear wheel is too close to the seat post tube. let us konw how you go!

what hub motor did you have?

@DazzlerDervish: wow, congrats on the purchase, sounds like a good deal! thanks for a lead on future battery purchases

I agree with BiGH: the space between the rear tire and the seat post is critical to fitting the motor mount. the 500W kit instructions ask for about 80mm clearance but i was able to squeeze it into a tighter space, about 73 mm. in the attached pic you'll see the close quarters i'm talking about. That being said, i am thinking that the aluminum motor mounts on the side closer to the wheel could be very simply machined down to buy you maybe 5 - 10mm more room. not sure how the structural integrity of the mounts would be at that point.

i could also see the more machining done if mounting holes for the clamping portion of the mount closer to the wheel are drilled closer to the seat tube, then you could probably remove a good 10-30mm. it will all make more sense once you get the mounting kit. in all, with machining you could maybe fit the kit into a a space around 50 or 60mm give or take.

The other thing to keep in mind that no one told me is that the cyclone 500W specific spindle you get only fits bottom brackets of 68mm. i had a 73mm bb on my first bike. doesn't look like an issue on the Giant CRX though. also, if there is a cartridge bb in the crx (i'm assuming there is) then don't forget to pick up some bottom bracket cups and bearings and grease.

good luck!

looking at that pic you're right there isn't a lot of room!

I'm sure a custom mount could be designed for the bike there - i'm thinking of something much like an X with a bar across ie:

|X where it retains the 4 points you've shown. This would provide similar structual integrity, while the open side of the X would give better clearance.

BiGH said:

looking at that pic you're right there isn't a lot of room!

I'm sure a custom mount could be designed for the bike there - i'm thinking of something much like an X with a bar across ie:

|X where it retains the 4 points you've shown. This would provide similar structual integrity, while the open side of the X would give better clearance.

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Yes, that mount is brutal

Great idea BiGH! yeah, it seems they didnt really push the design of the mount too much so it really limits the bikes you can install on. i totally forgot but you can see that there are holes on the seat-post side of the mounting bracket to slide the mounting posts and crossbars closer to the rear tire and allowing (possible) the mounting bracket to move closer to the seat post, but i think that doesn't always end up aligning well with the chainwheel since it would force the motor sprocket closer to the crankset. anyway, you're idea sounds good to me

Thanks, I will keep the font size down this time!

My old kit was a 350w Skyhawk brushless bought from Spookytooth in Arizona. Paired with a 36v 13ah NiMH battery from batteryspace. It was good, ambled along at a pleasent 20 mph and went about 25 miles. But it only served to get me addicted. The need for slightly more speed! Hence the cyclone kit and Lifepo4 battery. It seemed like a nicely balanced set up, weight versus power, and added agility with the centre of gravity being so much lower.

I travel 10 miles across London every day and back and I love being electrified. The looks of amazement you get are funny, I coupled my hub motor to a retro beach cruiser from Electra, and you don't see many of them in London, what with there being no beaches... So it turns heads and is super comfy.

Thanks again for the tips. I will heed your advise when approaching the bike purchase. I will post up some pictures too. Of my last bike and the new one.

Dazzler.

AHH nice work. I just checked my roadbike for clearance ... 45mm and thats pushing it hehehe.

I'm going to go the brute force route first on the hub motor, after that pays its self off, I might go to a chain driven flat bar road bike, but clearly a lot of work will be required to be done first. We have very harsh laws down here (250w max + evil cops), so need to keep the motor on the down low.

hey there all! wow, it's been a while. glad to see the group is going strong! i was away for a bit rainy weather came after i did the dahon build and after that my work schedule changed significantly so i was doing more carpooling. anyway, last week was my first full week of riding to my new office, what fun! i hit 34.1 mph on the way to work one day, was a good workout (for me and the bike!).

i will need to deal with it one night this week (havent had much time to investigate), but in the meantime, here's a totally silly question: the sound of the motor has change a tad in tone. i noticed it on my ride Friday, its slightly lower pitched. the ride feels the same, and i was able to hit my max speed to date, but it's a bit disconcerting - i'm used to a certain noise coming from the drive motor.

as i said, i will be dealing with the drive train some time this week or weekend (cleaning, lubing, etc), but thought i would ask to see what i should be preparing myself for

hey there all, so the last few weeks of steady riding into work i've noticed some wear on the front freewheel. the one that cyclone sent seems pretty low quality and it was super wobbly after maybe 120 miles of riding - i could see the ball bearings! i spotted this post by timbits and decided to follow his setup. i got the parts last week and embarked on the drilling and fitting this weekend. i am about to ride into work in about 30 minutes, so hopefully it all stays together

this is mostly copied from timbit's post, i added some extra pics of my final setup:
1. started with the eno 22t freewheel


2. i used the chainring adapter recommended by timbits


3. i used a 44t chainring (to match the cyclone one i had)


4. i made a jig for drilling the center hole out of the chainring adapter
i followed timbits' instructions and used a 2 1/8" hole saw, then used a dremel tool to file it further until i had the 56mm opening to fit the eno freewheel through.


5. once the the freewheel fit, i drilled some holes to bold the freewheel to the adapter


6. Finally, i put it all together





The chainline moved closer to the bike as a result so i had to shift the motor to the left a bit to deal with it. it still left enough clearance for the crank arm on the left rotate freely so i was happy

the next phase will be the nuvinci hub install, still waiting for it to arrive. i will probably get the local bike shop to lace it into a rim for me. thanks timbits for the great tip! i wouldnt have thought i could pull it off, but you made it seem doable!

thats a real nice piece of work there - hope it runs well,let us know


Cheers

D

@deecanio: thanks man! i've been admiring your build for a while

well, i made it to work ok! seems to work well, it's sooooo nice to have a solid freewheel now after riding with the worn out cyclone one for so long. definitely feels solid.

nice work hopbot

thanks for posting it up - it's given me some ideas for gearing myself having the single speed problem.
the thing i like best about that work is the nice clean execution - it looks purpose built, nice 8)


Cheers

D