Dahon Matrix with Cyclone 500w

@deecanio: thanks again for the compliments, couldnt have done it without timbits awesome post outlining it all

just received the nuvinci hub yesterday, so the next phase of the project is about to begin....

hopbot said:

@deecanio: thanks again for the compliments, couldnt have done it without timbits awesome post outlining it all

just received the nuvinci hub yesterday, so the next phase of the project is about to begin....

Click to expand...

The rotating direction of your drive motor is opposite that of timbits !?

Which design is better?

hey there The7, good question. i followed the Cyclone instructions so while i cant say the arrangement i have is better, that is what is recommended by Cyclone. i like timbits' setup a lot, especially since it seems the motor can be slightly closer to the chainwheel and that gives a tad more clearance. other than that, i'm not sure.

it does seem like the stock cyclone setup results in less chain contact withthe motor gear, not sure how that affects things.

The7 said:

hopbot said:

@deecanio: thanks again for the compliments, couldnt have done it without timbits awesome post outlining it all

just received the nuvinci hub yesterday, so the next phase of the project is about to begin....

Click to expand...

The rotating direction of your drive motor is opposite that of timbits !?

Which design is better?

Click to expand...

I have used motors with both rotating directions. Performance wise, I can't tell any difference.

There are a few things I like about the 650 watt rotating direction. With the chain guide mounted on the upper mounting bracket bolts there is more clearance under the motor and one thing less to bash or bend if you hit something. A more important issue ( IMO) is regarding the clockwise rotating freewheel on the motor output shaft. This is the “ normal” direction most freewheels rotate. I believe the original stock cyclone 14t freewheel is the smaller metric bmx type and are CCW rotation. The 650 Watt motor Paco sent me included a 15t CW rotation freewheel to match the reversed rotation of the new motor compared to the original 360 watt I had been using. I have plans to get a freewheel adapter ( http://www.staton-inc.com/default.asp , search for freewheel, lots of choices.) and mount a 16t eno freewheel to replace the 15t that came with the 650 watt motor. Should fit as far as I can tell after having the adapters center hole enlarged to match the cyclone shaft size. The eno freewheel is quite a bit more robust than the stock cyclone unit and should last longer. I am a big fan of using standard size parts whenever possible

Hi Hopbot
Your setup looks great. Thanks for the kind words.!
Do keep us informed on the nuvinci hub

thanks for the great info timbits! yeah, i love knowing the parts i am using are now standard (the chainring and freewheel). i would love to take this step with the motor soon

OMG am I glad to have found this forum! I have been in the Vsiforvoltage.org forum without much luck.

"I like the motor location (in front) as opposed to the Cyclone.

I would like to build an Ebike with a Crank drive so the motor takes advantage of the gears and use a SRAM 9 speed (or maybe a Rohlof or Nuvinci) rear hub and get rid of the derailers altogether.

I'm not sure how best to do it. I don't like the Cyclone because:
1. I'm not sure it can be geared properly in relation to rider cadence. Optibike says with a Pedal Cadence of 80 the motor will be in or near its optimum range.

2. I don't think the quality of the Cyclone Components is very good.

3. I don't like the motor location below the crank."


This is EXACTLY what I've come to think as the perfect setup.... Till now I haven't been able to find anything else with this info...

I'd like to start working on putting together such a setup but there are a few things that seem to suck (cost too dang much for me). The Freewheel crank setups taken off tandem bikes are really expensive, at least the ones I've found. If someone has a inexpensive alternative please let me know.

Motors.. Does anyone know of a location to get a good brushless motor 500-1000w? It's easy to find controllers, but the motor seems to be a hard one to pinpoint. Then there is the question of gear reduction, what might be needed and what will work?

Then the LifePO4 batts need to come down in price and all would be well... LOL. Anyhow, I'd like to keep this discussion going!

Kyle

Hey there all! ok, so i finally (FINALLY) got some time to get the Nuvinci hub integrated into my setup. it took a long while because:

• not much time to mess in the garage in the last few months
• i got the wrong rim for the hub (wrong number of holes, wish i had bought the pre-built combo)
• had too large of a rear freewheel installed and it couldn't be removed without the special Nuvinci-made tool which was unavailable online ANYWHERE (had to call Nuvinci and they helped me out)

So i had the local bike shop lace the hub into a wheel and asked them to put a 22 tooth freewheel on it. turns out that wasnt the best choice as i really lost my top end and the low end was so low i felt like i could climb a wall with the bike! the gear ratio is crazy on this thing! i did some really rudimentary calculations and figured i needed a 17t freewheel on the back to get back to my 30mph on some of the roads to work. i discovered at that point that i could not remove the freewheel since the hub itself will free spin in the direction you need to turn to remove the freewheel. i found on some boards that Nuvinci made a special tool to remove standard freewheels from the hub, but no place online sells it - all links to it were broken. i finally called support at Nuvinci and they were great - they fed-exed me the tool and i paid them via paypal ($75 bucks! its a specialty tool )

here are some shots of the hub after i finally got the bike shop guys to help my remove the freewheel with Nuvinci's own Freewheel Removal Tool (it was really stuck on there!)


here's what the tool(s) look like from Nuvinci


the inner portion has splines which hold the hub from free spinning, then the outer bar fits over the top of the inner part and has the standard freewheel notches on it. pretty precise and it worked like a charm at the bike shop!

I got the puppy installed - once you remove the rear derailleur assembly, the hub installs with the included vertical drop out adapters (it was originally designed for horizontal drop outs).


i used a really nice chain tensioner from Sette to reduce the chain slack. ideally i need to get a half link in there but havent had time to go back to the bike shop



The original plastic Cyclone chain guard got mangled in a chain skipping incident a few weeks before, so i installed a really nice Salsa chain guard. i wanted 2 (one on the inside and one on the outside) to guarantee the chain staying on, but i didnt have enough room on the inside and now with the Nuvinci hub, there isnt much need for it.

well, that's it! i'm glad to have finally arrived at this point in the project. The hub is really amazing overall, really changes the ride and i'm not so scared about the chain jumping off the chainring or breaking anymore!

some things i've learned about the Nuvinci hub:

• The hub has an impressive "gear" range (350% i think) and so you need to find the right freewheel and chainring to get something that feels comfortable - to me that meant matching what i had on my traditional cassette setup
• after installing the actual shifter on the handle bars and cutting the cables, and installing the rear assembly, be aware that after some usage it will loosen up and you may need to do some more trimming. i've done it once and i feel the cables have stretched again
• i really miss not having my notched gear shifter - i know that the continuously variable aspect is the whole point with the Nuvinci hub - but it's harder to shift without checking the shifter gauge when you dont have any tactile feedback about how many "clicks" up or down you have shifted
• the shifting is a bit tricky: while i could easily shift my traditional gear setup through all 8 gears in a relatively short motion, the Nuvinci shifter actually has to go through what feels like at least 2 revolutions (whole twists) to get the full range of gears. this is really hard to get used to and not really desirable for me - Nuvinici, can you improve this?
• there is some strangeness to the shifting, and i imagine it has something to do with the angle of the balls inside the hub: in the lower gears, i have to twist the shifter quite a bit to get to a moderate cadence. in the higher level gears, there is one very delicate spot where i need to twist very gently or i go from moderate pedaling to having to stand up and work! not ideal at all! i've had to really learn where this spot in the shifting!
• now the chain is quieter and smoother and i dont need to worry about it hopping off! the chain line is really ideal now and i could remove the extra idler wheels i had installed before - the last few rides i had before the nuvinci were nerve wracking for me since i had the chain fall off a couple of times (i hate going to work with greasy hands!) and at one point this mangled my (plastic) chain guard.
• i've had to re-learn my e-bike riding style now with the Nuvinci since the shifting does feel so much different (more twisting needed, can shift at a stand still).

it's not perfect, but i'm pretty happy so far.

hopbot said:

Hey there all! ok, so i finally (FINALLY) got some time to get the Nuvinci hub integrated into my setup. it took a long while because:

well, that's it! i'm glad to have finally arrived at this point in the project. The hub is really amazing overall, really changes the ride and i'm not so scared about the chain jumping off the chainring or breaking anymore!

some things i've learned about the Nuvinci hub:

• i really miss not having my notched gear shifter - i know that the continuously variable aspect is the whole point with the Nuvinci hub - but it's harder to shift without checking the shifter gauge when you dont have any tactile feedback about how many "clicks" up or down you have shifted
• the shifting is a bit tricky: while i could easily shift my traditional gear setup through all 8 gears in a relatively short motion, the Nuvinci shifter actually has to go through what feels like at least 2 revolutions (whole twists) to get the full range of gears. this is really hard to get used to and not really desirable for me - Nuvinici, can you improve this?
• there is some strangeness to the shifting, and i imagine it has something to do with the angle of the balls inside the hub: in the lower gears, i have to twist the shifter quite a bit to get to a moderate cadence. in the higher level gears, there is one very delicate spot where i need to twist very gently or i go from moderate pedaling to having to stand up and work! not ideal at all! i've had to really learn where this spot in the shifting!

Click to expand...

Hi,

You might want to check their LEV Kit:
http://www.fallbrooktech.com/09_Lev_Kit.asp

Manual or automatic control

Electronic Shift Actuator with integrated Position Encoder

Create custom shift maps and download to your vehicle through the NuVinci PC application software

Click to expand...

They told me with this Kit that the hub shifts easily under power . This LEV kit (might require a new hub, I didn't check) sounds compelling. Even if the only benefits are manual smooth shifting under power using custom shift maps it might be really nice. If the automatic works well that would be sweet.

cool info, thanks mitch! it will be a while before i go further with this (money!), but this definitely sounds neat. i havent read about anyone using one yet. is it available?

hopbot said:

cool info, thanks mitch! it will be a while before i go further with this (money!), but this definitely sounds neat. i havent read about anyone using one yet. is it available?

Click to expand...

Hi,

I'm not sure if its available now or not but I think not.

Maybe a Nexus 8 Speed or SRAM 9 speed would resolve most of your complaints about the Nuvinci. Good comparison article here (Nuvinci, SRAM, Nexus, Rohloff):
http://www.velovision.com/mag/issue29/vv29hubgears.pdf

wow, great info mitch! thanks a ton!

Hi,

Nexus power handling info:
Gary posted this:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5297&p=79741&hilit=rusty+spokes#p79741

I'm sure the Nexus hubs can handle the power. There's a guy with a bike shop down in San Diego (Rusty Spokes, in Pacific Beach...) who custom builds chopper-style motor bikes, using Etek and Mars motors. He uses these same Nexus 3-speed hubs with these beasts, and they have worked flawlessly, even pumping 15 hp through them. Instead of chain, hoever, his bikes are belt driven, using regular toothless v-belts. There's a little bit of "slippage" when starting out, which is like a clutch. Works great, he says, and these things can hit close to 60 in just 2nd gear. Anyway, he's never had a single problem with any of the Nexus hubs.

Click to expand...

I emailed him, quoting Gary above. The following are my questions with his replies. He didn't actually answer my question but it sounds like he has used 7 speeds without problems and believes the 8 speeds are just as strong:

Do you know if the Nexus 8 speeds are strong enough to handle 2kw or 4kw peak?

more like 68.8 mph in 1st gear.

Thanks for taking the time to answer but I'm not sure I understand your reply. Does
"more like 68.8 mph in 1st gear" mean the 8 speed is strong enough?

i have only tried 3s and 7s , but im sure it is the same...

Click to expand...

The first reply didn't address my question at all but corrected the speed in Gary's post (I guess he considered "close to 60 mph in first gear" an insult :lol: ).

Yep, that's the guy. I think his name is Dave. Next time I'm down there I really need to take some pictures of some of his machines. His "everyday" ride is an Etek powered version, with a 36V setup using three 12V/50Ah SLAs. He doesn't ride it to and from work so much, as he lives 11 miles away, and the range he gets with the SLAs is about 10 miles. This beast is crying for a big steamy pile of LiFePO4.

Last time I talked to him, he was about ready to take a trip to China, to work out the final details to get one of his chopper-style cruiser bikes manufactured over there. I'm definitely going to be doing an electric version of one of these, at some point.