New Bafang Crank-Drives

Some info on how I think the Lectric Cycles controller is programmed now that I have a wattmeter hooked up:

PAS1: 250W
PAS2: 500W
PAS3, 4 & 5: 750W

Throttle unlimited in all PAS modes.

I suspected PAS 3, 4 and 5 were the same just from riding and have since used the advanced setup menu to disable levels 4 and 5.

I went for a quick ride to pick up some dinner tonight. 3.4 km, quite hilly, PAS3 the whole way. Averaged 15Wh/km, 23A peak, 1100W peak. The motor was quite warm when I stopped. I could keep my hand on it though, so less than 55°C.

I dropped the chain off once when I shifted down 3 or 4 gears at once while hitting a bumpy section of track.

I can't keep up with PAS3 in top gear on the flat but I really need the low gear for the steep hills here, so I may look at getting a mate to mill a dished aluminium 46T chainring to test.
 
Tom L said:
Some info on how I think the Lectric Cycles controller is programmed now that I have a wattmeter hooked up:

PAS1: 250W
PAS2: 500W
PAS3, 4 & 5: 750W

Throttle unlimited in all PAS modes.

I suspected PAS 3, 4 and 5 were the same just from riding and have since used the advanced setup menu to disable levels 4 and 5.

I went for a quick ride to pick up some dinner tonight. 3.4 km, quite hilly, PAS3 the whole way. Averaged 15Wh/km, 23A peak, 1100W peak. The motor was quite warm when I stopped. I could keep my hand on it though, so less than 55°C.

I dropped the chain off once when I shifted down 3 or 4 gears at once while hitting a bumpy section of track.

I can't keep up with PAS3 in top gear on the flat but I really need the low gear for the steep hills here, so I may look at getting a mate to mill a dished aluminium 46T chainring to test.
Click to expand...

Tested my BBS02 750w as shipped from lcrewse with 5 PAS settings.

PAS Level 1 - Max of 220W assist
PAS Level 2 - Max of 776W assist
PAS Level 3 - Max of 1022W assist
PAS Level 4 - Max of 1022W Assist (No difference from Level 3)
PAS Level 5 - Max of 1156W Assist (25.3A/Max Possible Current)

I have since reset the PAS to 9 Levels of Assist to see if that produces a finer range of assist levels, particularly between Levels 1 & 2 - It would nice to get an assist level of around 500W Max. - More info when I have another chance/weather to test.
 
If this drive is truly putting out 1,000W in a fairly quiet manner, while having the use of the bikes 7 gears at the rear wheel...that's even better than I thought. No wonder they are currently sold out...
 
It is a fantastic kit. Sure there are always teething problems on products this complex, but it is unmistakably a new bench mark. Beauty is it fits most any bike frame with a normal bottom bracket. For folks needing a bit more case clearance, simple bb cup spacer washer work well. Thick walled bottom bracket shells are a issue on this generation, but hopefully will be addressed in following generations. Has my vote for 2013 best new ebike kit/product.
 
spinningmagnets said:
If this drive is truly putting out 1,000W in a fairly quiet manner, while having the use of the bikes 7 gears at the rear wheel...that's even better than I thought. No wonder they are currently sold out...
Click to expand...
Yeah, I have had no problem yet getting the max 25A out of the controller. With my 12S LiPo pack at max charge of 50.4V, that would allow a theoretical max of 1260W. (Haven't verified that yet, since I haven't tested it on a fully charged battery.)

My data is coming from a Watt'sup knock-off meter http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00C596UIA/ref=oh_details_o00_s01_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 , but based on the Max Amps readings I am believing the results.

I requested my particular unit to be programmed with a max MPH of 50kph (31 MPH), although lectriccycles will also program these to "unlimited" upon request.

And yes, the noise on this drive is easily drowned out by wind and ambient noise.
 
teslanv said:
Tom L said:
Some info on how I think the Lectric Cycles controller is programmed now that I have a wattmeter hooked up:

PAS1: 250W
PAS2: 500W
PAS3, 4 & 5: 750W

Throttle unlimited in all PAS modes.

I suspected PAS 3, 4 and 5 were the same just from riding and have since used the advanced setup menu to disable levels 4 and 5.

I went for a quick ride to pick up some dinner tonight. 3.4 km, quite hilly, PAS3 the whole way. Averaged 15Wh/km, 23A peak, 1100W peak. The motor was quite warm when I stopped. I could keep my hand on it though, so less than 55°C.

I dropped the chain off once when I shifted down 3 or 4 gears at once while hitting a bumpy section of track.

I can't keep up with PAS3 in top gear on the flat but I really need the low gear for the steep hills here, so I may look at getting a mate to mill a dished aluminium 46T chainring to test.
Click to expand...

Tested my BBS02 750w as shipped from lcrewse with 5 PAS settings.

PAS Level 1 - Max of 220W assist
PAS Level 2 - Max of 776W assist
PAS Level 3 - Max of 1022W assist
PAS Level 4 - Max of 1022W Assist (No difference from Level 3)
PAS Level 5 - Max of 1156W Assist (25.3A/Max Possible Current)

I have since reset the PAS to 9 Levels of Assist to see if that produces a finer range of assist levels, particularly between Levels 1 & 2 - It would nice to get an assist level of around 500W Max. - More info when I have another chance/weather to test.
Click to expand...


They are kind of similar peak values to what I was seeing, except I did not notice any difference in 3, 4 and 5. Also I was getting over 340W peak in Pas 1 and only ~620 peak in PAS2. I'll have a closer look today.

I'm happy with 3 levels of assist and they seem to be evenly spaced. We could really do with that programming software though.
 
The well-designed and high-quality German-engineered Bosch unit has really taken over the off-road scene in Europe, but they require a custom frame interface, so you have to buy a bike that has partnered with Bosch (there are at least a dozen companies with several models each using the Bosch).

The fact that the BBS02 can be fitted to 90% of the existing frames was an incredibly wise decision. There is simply nothing like this on the market to compete with it right now.

http://www.electricbike.com/trek-bosch/
http://www.electricbike.com/eurobike-2013/
BoschTrek2.jpg
 
Do you need something like a nuvinci drive to properly enjoy the crankdrive?

I mean if you live in city with a lot of stop and start it would be a pain to change gears non stop
 
I don't think so. You just have to anticipate when you are going to need a gear change. This is true for unpowered bikes too. So if you can ride around the city fine now you should have no problems.

I was considering the N360 before I fitted this motor but now that I've had a chance to ride with this kit for a while I find that my 9sp cassette shifts perfectly fine. Even under load (something I try to avoid though) and am no longer considering buying an N360.
 
I find myself cringing every time I shift under load to the point where I think I will carry a spare chain and tool. Shifting gears on my 8 speed SRAM cassette with up to 1200W going through it just makes me nervous. Better to pause pedaling before shifting I think.
An IGH will remain on my wish list.
Is there a clear price-performance leader among internal gear hubs?
 
I got an email reply from lcrewse indicating that the 5 PAS levels are supposed to be increments of 20% power but that is not how it is working out in practice and that they are going to be playing around with the settings to try and fix this.
 
Tom L said:
I don't think so. You just have to anticipate when you are going to need a gear change. This is true for unpowered bikes too. So if you can ride around the city fine now you should have no problems.

I was considering the N360 before I fitted this motor but now that I've had a chance to ride with this kit for a while I find that my 9sp cassette shifts perfectly fine. Even under load (something I try to avoid though) and am no longer considering buying an N360.
Click to expand...


Exactly how I feel about this drive...


I've done 150 miles on my 750w version on a 9spd cassette and had no shifting issues really. I don't shift on full throttle as this is asking for trouble... I find since there is now a lot of power available I don't need to shift as often anyway, you can pull away from a stop much more easily than an unpowered bike, so changing down is less important unless your on a steep hill.

The main thing is how long the chain and teeth are going to hold up under the extra power. Anyone put high miles on a Bosch drive with a narrow chain so we can get an idea of longevity? I'm assuming there aren't many high mileage bafangs yet
 
I have clocked up around 600 km on mine and most of that on gruelling single track. I have been expecting a chain failure and carry a chain breaker and spare links just in case. Drive has been outstanding under these conditions to date, and not a single drive train issue. I typically operated at 50% assist but also stand on the pedals hard during climbs so probably pumping out 1000W plus through the chain.

I find down changes not to be a problem even under load however I do need to be carefully on up changes and use the dead spot in the thumb throttle to get though these changes. That being said, I have stuffed up the changes plenty of times and crunched through the up change under power. Sound terrible but so far, all has survived.

I can't get enough of this drive.
 
mikelec said:
Tom L said:
I don't think so. You just have to anticipate when you are going to need a gear change. This is true for unpowered bikes too. So if you can ride around the city fine now you should have no problems.

I was considering the N360 before I fitted this motor but now that I've had a chance to ride with this kit for a while I find that my 9sp cassette shifts perfectly fine. Even under load (something I try to avoid though) and am no longer considering buying an N360.
Click to expand...


Exactly how I feel about this drive...


I've done 150 miles on my 750w version on a 9spd cassette and had no shifting issues really. I don't shift on full throttle as this is asking for trouble... I find since there is now a lot of power available I don't need to shift as often anyway, you can pull away from a stop much more easily than an unpowered bike, so changing down is less important unless your on a steep hill.

The main thing is how long the chain and teeth are going to hold up under the extra power. Anyone put high miles on a Bosch drive with a narrow chain so we can get an idea of longevity? I'm assuming there aren't many high mileage bafangs yet
Click to expand...

My friend has ktm macina 2013 bosch bike and he did /sorry for metric unit/ 5000km in 7 month without any problem - he constantly monitor chain with caliber and it is still very ok. He is heavy guy 100kg+ and use a lot power /he use speed up device to obey 25km/h limit/ But he is obsessed about clean bike guy and his chain is ALWAYS 100% clean and 100% lubed with teflon something. He think that chain longevity is primary function of clean and lubed chain not load. When you want i can find details about chain and cassete he use.
 
We need someone like dogman to really try and break this drive. See what it takes.
That being said, a lot of this drive's performance and longevity will come down to the quality of the components in the rest of the drive train.
As for my build, I installed a new SRAM 8-speed 11T-32T cassette and SRAM PC 850 chain. Also replaced the derailleur cable, and spent some time tuning the derailleur before I installed the drive. The derailleur is the original Shimano Alivio that came on the bike.
Of particular concern is the 11T cog and if I run the drive too hard, although with the speed limit set to 50 kph, I can find that I still have a reasonable cadence after the drive tops out.
 
teslanv said:
We need someone like dogman to really try and break this drive. See what it takes.
That being said, a lot of this drive's performance and longevity will come down to the quality of the components in the rest of the drive train.
As for my build, I installed a new SRAM 8-speed 11T-32T cassette and SRAM PC 850 chain. Also replaced the derailleur cable, and spent some time tuning the derailleur before I installed the drive. The derailleur is the original Shimano Alivio that came on the bike.
Of particular concern is the 11T cog and if I run the drive too hard, although with the speed limit set to 50 kph, I can find that I still have a reasonable cadence after the drive tops out.
Click to expand...
I bet he would the hill he has too climb to get home is a mother....The mountains up to Sierra Blanca from my house would be a great test too. If it can withstand Dogman's climb stock with around 900w continuous I'll bet the thermistor would shut it down a lot.....
 
bose said:
Isn't it possible to harden the 11 tooth cog?
Click to expand...

I stuff my 11cog after a 1000km... 11cog started skipping/jump on heavy load. So I usually run on 14cog with higher cadence (~100rpm)... and getting efficiency = 6.16 Wh/Km(no throttle/high rpm at 35-40kph)

Done ~2500 kms so far...on new chains and cogs
 
There is no thermistor in the motor stator. There may however be a thermal cutout built into the controller. Can't confirm this though. I have had the drive cutout when powering with full throttle into a tight uphill Bern though. Not sure if this was due to hitting the LVC under load or some other level of protection. The batteries I use on this bike are quite tired so it may well have been LVC. When it happens I need to stop pedalling as well as release the throttle before it re sets.

My opinion is that continual operation at 900W and above would kill this motor judging by how quickly the motor case warms up when running at this power level. Someone else can test this out I think :mrgreen:
 
More data to report:

I test-rode my full commute this afternoon. (Very Hilly commute.)

Total ride of 20.4 Miles.
After Setting the PAS to 9 levels, I settled on level 3 of 9 on the first leg and consumed 2.7 AH of my 10AH pack. The Max draw was 612 Watts, but for the most part I was seeing around 400-500 watts- I had to work a bit on those hills, and it took me 45 minutes to go 10.2 miles.
On the leg back home, I stepped up the PAS to level 4 of 9, and consumed an additional 5.08AH for a total of 7.78Ah for the round-trip commute, and 362 WH.

My average Watts per mile was 17.75 (11.1 WH/km)
Had I stayed with PAS level 3 of 9, I estimate my WH/Mile at 13.3.
I never used the throttle.

At PAS level 3 of 9, I estimate my range at 33 Miles.
At PAS Level 4 of 9, Range would be closer to 20 Miles

I will probably make a habit of keeping the PAS at 3 of 9, for the additional exercise and for better range. - It also seemed to be the sweet spot I was looking for from the last test-ride, which I had just 5 PAS settings and Level 2 of 5 was a bit too much assist.

I should also mention that I greased my chain and that reduced the shifting jerkiness considerably. Shifting was MUCH smoother. I am much less concerned about chain breakage now.

This kit & Bike are freaking awesome!!!
 
Melbourne said:
bose said:
Isn't it possible to harden the 11 tooth cog?
Click to expand...

I stuff my 11cog after a 1000km... 11cog started skipping/jump on heavy load. So I usually run on 14cog with higher cadence (~100rpm)... and getting efficiency = 6.16 Wh/Km(no throttle/high rpm at 35-40kph)

Done ~2500 kms so far...on new chains and cogs
Click to expand...

I did find myself wearing out my Aprilia mid-drives the same way - they had an 11 tooth Shimano 'MegaRange' freewheel as std. The guys in the GNG chain-drive thread seem to have done a lot of work on strengthening the downstream drive train. Es Users Snellemin and Bzhwindtalker (Adam Mercier) were putting about 3kW to the rear end from memory - it might be worth a skip through that thread to take their learnings on drivetrain torque and wear limits.

I found that the constant hopping up and down chain cogs without backing off the throttle became ugly on drive parts with time. Hillhater has just had the same failure with his drive in the Aprilia thread.
 
How Stealthy is this drive?

Today Going down the largest hill on my commute, I got the speed up to ~40 MPH (64 km/h).

(I wasn't using electric assist at that time.)

When I get to a stop light at the end of the run, a cop pulls up beside me and says, "You were going over 35 MPH [posted speed limit] down that hill." Then he smiles, gives me the peace sign and drives off.

:oops:
 
Installed a BBS01 (350 W) on my rigid mountain bike this weekend. Too dark for much of a test ride by the time I was done, but everything seems to be working. I was impressed by the quality of the kit - brakes levers as good or better than the ones they replaced, watertight connections, nice fit and finish, etc.

I did misplace one of the little o rings for the brake connector - anybody know where I might be able to find a replacement?
 
teslanv said:
After Setting the PAS to 9 levels
Click to expand...

Did this make any difference to the spacing between levels? I was under the impression that the levels are individually programmed and selecting less levels simply cuts off access to the higher ones. e.g. say it was programmed like this:

PAS0 - 0%
PAS1 - 10%
PAS2 - 20%
PAS3 - 30 %
...
PAS7 - 70%
PAS8 - 80%
PAS9 - 100%

If you set the number of levels to 5, then you would only have access 50% assistance max and the increments below this are still 10%.
 
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