Adaptto Mini-E/Max-E Owner's Thread

The Adappto "for sale" thread has turned into the 25-page discussion thread (found here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58190), but as Xenodius has pointed out, any for sale thread will be auto-pruned over time, and any technical info that was posted will be lost to future readers (Lurker/reader to poster ratio is more than 100:1)

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If Adaptto gets a chance to read this, I have a few recommendations. I would secure dealer contracts with someone in Germany, Australia, and USA/Canada. Of course that could expand over time, but those three places seem to have the most passionate local communities that love high-powered E-bikes. Most of the German E-bikers I've interacted with have an impressive command of English. Adaptto could ship a pallet to their dealer, dealer can split the order to individual customers in their region and answer the hundreds of questions...

So far, an ES users index would be:

GCinDC (USA) http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=36375
Xenodius (USA) http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58190&start=25#p869670
Xenodius (2) http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58190&start=375#p906067
ridethelightning (Taz, Australia) http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58190&start=100#p878181
Axle (USA) http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=58961&p=880444#p880433
Madin88 (Austria) http://www.electricbike.com/martin-cromotor/
upek (Poland) http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58190&start=150#p887018
Allex (Sweden) http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58190&start=150#p889657
Ohbse (New Zealand) http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58190&start=200#p891802
Offroader (Australia?) http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58190&start=175#p890972
Willow (Taz, Australia) http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58190&start=200#p891895
wingsuit (Canada) http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58190&start=400#p908581
Hugechainring (?) http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58190&start=450#p910407
Mammalian04 (Texas, USA) http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58190&start=450#p911420
jut (?) http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=61484

Hi Jay, you are welcome to contact sales@adaptto.ru or me directly at andy@adaptto.ru

ES username "Adaptto E-Drives Lab" is also ES member "Andreym"

Click to expand...

Andreym podcast about Adappto controllers:
http://troyrank.com/2014/05/29/ebike-nerd-podcast-episode-35/

Translation of controller setting by GCinDC, video of set-up :
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58190&start=125#p883401
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58190&start=400#p908360

June 2014 manual in english:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58190&start=450#p909987

connectors and pinout diagram:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58190&start=25#p869467

Rated for 22S LiPo, or 28S LiFePO4b
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=58190&start=475#p912026

Adappto BMS wiring diagrams and battery pack connections
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61059

Russian retailer "velomastera" also is a sales outlet:
http://velomastera.ru/shop/show_good.php?idtov=501036&grid=1

Pics of Mini-E opened up
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=61484

herr linkmeister (spinningmags), awesome work! keep it up! it's a huge help!

if anyone wants to watch me bumble through every item on the menu (lastest firmware -9b), enjoy:
[youtube]aAUyYGdvCiU[/youtube]
in case i need to help axel w/ some configs later, i'll need to refer to this...

if anyone has any suggestions on configs, please let us know!

It seems like you have to go through Sberbank, but I am a little confused as to shipping fees and the procedure for sending them money. I also set up an account with them and cant log into it, I tried it twice.

Paradigm said:

It seems like you have to go through Sberbank, but I am a little confused as to shipping fees and the procedure for sending them money. I also set up an account with them and cant log into it, I tried it twice.

Click to expand...

wrong thread. all purchasing/orders issues should be discussed in the FOR SALE thread: The most advanced Adaptto Mini-E Controller + BMS

i really don't want this thread to get ruined by ordering/shipping stuff. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE use the other thread!! Thanks!

On topic, my mini-e failed on the way home a couple of weeks ago - blown FET/phase

Happened during wet weather and seems likely to be related to water ingress, Adaptto have been very helpful and communicative in arranging to have it shipped back for diagnosis and repair, unfortunately I have not had a moment to sort out the shipping for its return as I just bought first home and my company has been acquired all in the same week. Shipping to them is at my cost, they will cover the return.

If I can recommend anything it's to ensure that the controller is in a position where it won't receive direct spray of water and is on some sort of inclination with the wire side down. Sealing up the end caps and FET heatsink screws is probably a good idea too. I dearly miss it, I'm currently back to using a Crystalyte 18FET on 20s/60a and it is jerky, SLOW and very LOUD. Charging is also a massive pain the ass and much more time consuming.

On more positive note during the last week or two of the Adaptto functioning I converted my HS3540 to oil cooled, no more heat issues. I can ride like a hooligan, consuming 45 wh/km and arrive home in 17 minutes with stator temperatures under 80c. Doesn't appear to leak any oil, however there is a fine buildup of oil 'mist' which then attracts a bit of dirt. My rear brake still works, but not exceptionally well haha. Thankfully between regen and Shimano XT 203mm fronts I don't need the rear discs much.

I'm sure Xenonious will chime in here at some point. He had water ingress issues and had it repaired. Then added more waterproofing to the inside by spraying conformal.

I just mounted mine with the wires down after removing and siliconing the other end in. The heat sink screws are tapered and tight with thermal paste on the other side so I figured they were fairly waterproof. Any water should drain out the wire exit end. There is a big empty space there also.

FYI the control board is mounted inside the controller at the opposite end of where the wires come out. Don't want the water to pool up on that.

I'm quite familiar with the insides as I had previously repaired mine with guidance from Adaptto after my shitty motor shorted out hall sensors to the cover. Thankfully this blew a protective resistor rather than anything complicated, that particular repair was very easy and cheap. This time round Adaptto would like to check it over to ensure that there's nothing other than the single FET that's damaged and more importantly WHY it blew as this is apparently quite ununsual.

Also on topic - here's a look at my charger. I bought two Lineage Power CP1800AC52 PSU's for $24 USD each. On 240v input they are rated at 1800w and can range from 44-58v.



Originally this would have been controlled by a centralised control mechanism as these front end rectifiers are intended for use in rack mount chassis providing DC power for telecommunications equipment, so the method by which I can change the output voltage is still a bit of a mystery. By default they are configured to ~52v I believe. They are intended for highly loaded 24/7 operation and have something like a 10 year MTBF. These ones were brand new, but missing their face plates and thus much cheaper than usual.





They will require a tail to be added for the AC input as well as DC output. I'm planning on using one of the chunky server sourced power leads I have lying about and some 10 gauge silicone wire for the DC.



Physically these things are very sturdy and very densely populated. Physical dimensions are 350mm x 102mm x 41mm. There are a number of models available, including ones with even higher ratings in the same form factor. 2.5kw is very possible, however is pushing the boundaries of what you can get away with on a single standard house outlet in NZ. I am having a dedicated EV charging 32a breaker and outlet installed in my "workshop" which I can use for even gruntier chargers

I suppose this is the right place to ask now! Has anyone figured out how to input speed from a wheel sensor (as opposed to inside a motor with different gearing)? I am going to install a LightningRods mid-drive kit and would love to use the MaxE if possible. It seems the question before us is how to get speed/distance into the MaxE.

Are there any other concerns to be aware of? For instance, the setup procedures recommend the 3 minute long "auto-setup". I am not sure what the Controller is doing during that period but I am thinking that the data it is collecting is some sort of motor benchmark for use in algorithms. If that is the case, the benchmarks might be different based upon the gear one has the bike in. Those benchmarks might be speed at a certain output, amp draw for a certain speed, voltage at a certain speed, etc.

I am just guessing on everything above, but the real question is, should I expect problems?

Thanks guys!

Ohbse said:

If I can recommend anything it's to ensure that the controller is in a position where it won't receive direct spray of water and is on some sort of inclination with the wire side down. Sealing up the end caps and FET heatsink screws is probably a good idea too.

Click to expand...

+1 on the board side end cap, particularly as water can easily enter this side and foul the circuitry there:

as you can see there's a lot of room on the wire side, and i'd guess it'd have to be full of water to mess up that side. interesting how there's almost a firewall between the cap side and the board side..

here's how i sealed the one end cap:


be very careful how hard you tighten the end cap screws. i believe they just go into plastic and can EASILY strip.

re the FET heatsink screws, i'm pretty sure they dead end in the heat sink. screws that are too long will stop after about 1/4" inside, as shown here with tape to mark the deepest the screw will go.

i kinda doubt water could ingress around the heat sink hole, since it's kinda sealed with thermal paste, and also gets hot enough to cook it off. but on second hand, if there's any salt around, all bets are off - the screw will likely corrode the alum heat sink, so i guess it couldn't hurt!

here, by the way, is a horrible handheld vid of the temp spiking i saw as a result of water inside the controller (presumably near the thermistor):
[youtube]LCVthZNWz08[/youtube]
and the water itself for proof:

Mammalian04 said:

how to input speed from a wheel sensor

Click to expand...

This is translated from the Russian manual:

Use with Planetary type motors
The controller supports motors with planetary gearsets and has some additional SETUP options to simplify use with these types of motors. Also possible to connect a reed type speed sensor instead of the brake lever sensor when using a motor with freewheel for correct determination of the velocity. Parameter and sensor calibration is located in the Controller setup menu -> Ext SPD ratio. For A full description of the special settings for working with planetary motors see Advanced Settings paragraph chapter

SPD sensor - Allows you to connect to the display input speed sensor brake lever from the bike computer. Useful for motors with freewheel, where braking is meaningless, and external sen-chik sorosti (speed sensor?) needed.

Click to expand...

Not sure if that helps!

i'm not sure how you'd use the throttle ebrake line for a speed sensor, if i'm reading it right.

for an ebrake, by the way, i've not been able to set up variable regen w/ hall sensor, but regen works very well with an on/off reed switch. here's the best pic i've seen by allex:


and my vid of setting up a reed switch:
[youtube]PlNwYSsmzMM[/youtube]

Added FIRMWARE SECTION to page 1 of thread.

Thanks ks GCinDC! That makes me feel better about the mid-drive install!

good idea to start a new thread beside the for sale one. thanks CGinDC and spinningmagnets for the good summary.

has anyone already flashed RC9b?

madin88 said:

has anyone already flashed RC9b?

Click to expand...

yep, i did it on both mine and axel's bike. everything seems to work fine, but still learning the features.

really struggling w/ overheating tho. i'm seeing temp bars and lower power when internal temp is only at ~100F...

the new one i received a couple months showed !BMS! errors on first startup, but that message would go away usually after starting it a couple seconds later. main reason i updated...

Thank you for directing me to the sales thread, I shall be back.

subscribe myself to this thread.

Mammalian04 said:

I suppose this is the right place to ask now! Has anyone figured out how to input speed from a wheel sensor (as opposed to inside a motor with different gearing)? I am going to install a LightningRods mid-drive kit and would love to use the MaxE if possible. It seems the question before us is how to get speed/distance into the MaxE.

Are there any other concerns to be aware of? For instance, the setup procedures recommend the 3 minute long "auto-setup". I am not sure what the Controller is doing during that period but I am thinking that the data it is collecting is some sort of motor benchmark for use in algorithms. If that is the case, the benchmarks might be different based upon the gear one has the bike in. Those benchmarks might be speed at a certain output, amp draw for a certain speed, voltage at a certain speed, etc.

I am just guessing on everything above, but the real question is, should I expect problems?

Thanks guys!

Click to expand...

@Mammalian04,
I wouldn't expect problems per se, but it will be a challenge. This controller is very sophisticated, and there are lots of settings and options.
I just got finished with the second go 'round on the translation. GCinDC should able to get some info posted up soon that is easier to understand. You are on track with the Auto-detect process. In a few words, the controller is test driving the motor, and gathering information about both the motor performance as well as the installation, ie the Hall sensor connections and phase connections. The Auto-detect process indirectly measures the wire resistance as well as the winding inductance, the errors in the physical location of the hall sensors compared to the applied magnetic field, the shift of the Hall sensor group from the zero point, and who knows what else.

This performance related info is collected with absolutely no load on the motor, so to establish a neutral benchmark. The algorithms take over and manipulate that data as needed to construct the control signals that go to the motor.

So, to answer your question, when you want the controller to run the motor differently, there's no need to change the benchmark data (unless of course it is wrong). What you do instead is adjust all the pertinent variables and settings, which alters the algorithms used to calculate the control signals, or in some cases change the algorithm altogether. There's a lot of variables and settings

I think in the case of a mid-drive you could program the three power profiles (Eco, Normal, Boost) in a slightly different way than everyone else. You could customize the profiles for each couple of ratios in your gearset.

The manual references the geared motors because it is a common application where the relationship between the motor speed and vehicle speed varies sometimes because of all the coasting that goes on with a overrunning clutch. This isn't a problem for the controller, as far as running the motor goes, because the controller knows how fast the motor is going at all times. What gets you into trouble is all the bad data that the controller collects when you are coasting. It makes many of the features you want, like the remaining range, odometer, speedometer, power management, more or less useless because the bike is going faster and farther than the controller is aware off. GIGO.

As far as I can gather, if you install an external speed sensor to the brake sensor input and enable the SPD sensor option, the controller overrides the speed related data it generates itself while running the motor and substitutes the signal from the external sensor for the purpose of calculating the speed limits, odometer, trip management, cruise control etc. The controller doesn't seem to care that the motor speed is all over the place compared to the vehicle speed. This is how a geared hub with an overrunning clutch behaves. All over the place.
Like a mid-drive. Varying motor speeds in relation to vehicle speed depending on what gear you choose. So much for a few words

PS- A MAX-E is probably going to tear your freewheel /chainrings etc to shreds in short order. You might consider a single speed mid drive with that much power and you could upgrade the chain and sprockets perhaps. I'm not an expert by any means, but I've gathered that mid-drive components like chains and sprockets don't last very long above 3KW.

Mammalian04 said:

I am going to install a LightningRods mid-drive kit and would love to use the MaxE if possible. ...Are there any other concerns to be aware of?

Click to expand...

just checked in w/ andrey: use of middrive is definitely not recommended for noob! and future firmware upgrade will be necessary to support high RPM for middrive.

i don't know if you're a noob or not, so please no offense, but mainly posting for reference.

in answering your q above, i was focused on the support for an external speed sensor, which there appears to be - spliced into ebrake circuit, but whether or not it works along w/ ebrake, is an open question...

A big thanks to both hugechainring and GCinDC.

Hugechainring, I relistened to the podcast and I understand a bit more about the auto-detect now. It would seem that technically the solution is possible.

GCinDC, thank you for reaching out to Andrey. I am DEFINATELY a NOOB, as you guys, Rix, Snellemin, Lightningrods, and all the others that are constantly answering my noob questions can attest to.

That being said, I hope to not be a noob someday and I am wondering specifically what complications Andrey anticipates a noob having problems with. Is it the programming of the controller, bike handling, or simply working out the extra moving parts. Snellemin did warn me about the added complications of mid-drives and that is why I initially avoided it in favor of the Cromotor-MaxE combination. I was lured back by the slow speed efficiency though.

It is also interesting that Andrey said a firmware update is necessary. Is there a good way to find out more about this from him?

Mammalian04 said:

It is also interesting that Andrey said a firmware update is necessary. Is there a good way to find out more about this from him?

Click to expand...

you can PM him, or he could respond here, but i'd suggest you plow through the threads on the russian forum to research it, as i personally know of no one who is using this system with a mid drive... they may intend to support mid drives later - hence a future firmware upgrade - but seems like there's no support for it now.

Also, attached below:
mini-E and MAX-E Controller Quick Start and User Guide - Unofficial Translation (PDF)
Huge thanks to Crea2k for the original Google translation and PDF->Word of the Russian guide and Huge thanks to Hugechainring for cleaning up/rewriting the translation!

Andrey is looking at it and will notify us of any corrections. Feedback/Comments/Corrections welcomed!

Also, BMS Setup section also added to page 1.

Very, very good thread GC!
Mid drive with MAX-E

http://electrotransport.ru/ussr/index.php?topic=21707.270

Alternative way of manually tuning the angles of your motor:
Take "Angle Corr" and "Ind Timing"

First Angles, lift up the wheel accelerate to 10-15km/h and adjust your angle so you have a smooth rotation. If the angle is wrong you will hear it and also the wheel will turn more slowly.
You can also test it on a very long stretch. Find a flat road and drive 15km/h with one setting, take note of the motor temperature and then change the value. If the temp. will get lower, then the new value is more correct, keep going until you get the lowest possible temp.

Same goes with Ind Timing. But this time you need to have a constant speed of ~50km/h. Take note of the motor temperature and then change the value. If the temp. will get lower, then the new value is more correct, keep going until you get the lowest possible temp.
Note: Dial OVS down to 0 when you do this.

Then you have PWR timing. Adjust this value so you have maximum torque when you go WOT from 40-50km/h.

thanks allex, but that's kinda a hub motor being used as a middrive, which is super cool, but mammalian referred to lightningrod and i believe his middrive kit is based on the GNG. so i wonder if it'll work w/ that... if that's what he has in mind... or the big block BHT type..?

GC is right. LightningRods is building up a big block kit for me.

We are working with Qulbix on a mounting solution.

GCinDC said:

Mammalian04 said:

I am going to install a LightningRods mid-drive kit and would love to use the MaxE if possible. ...Are there any other concerns to be aware of?

Click to expand...

just checked in w/ andrey: use of middrive is definitely not recommended for noob! and future firmware upgrade will be necessary to support high RPM for middrive.

in answering your q above, i was focused on the support for an external speed sensor, which there appears to be - spliced into ebrake circuit, but whether or not it works along w/ ebrake, is an open question...

Click to expand...

Mammalian04 said:

It is also interesting that Andrey said a firmware update is necessary.

Click to expand...

External speed sensor option and e-brake (regenerative braking) are not available at the same time.

The pictorial connection diagram is a little confusing. It's not spliced but an optional connection method. One or the other. Regen won't work with a bike with a freewheel or overrunning clutch, whether it as a mid-drive or hub motor, so they chose to re-purpose the now unused sensor port.

The firmware comment is interesting. The Adaptto site says the controller will support motors up to 70,000 erpm. erpm is the mechanical speed times the number of pole pairs in the motor. You would need to do some research and see if the erpm of any of these kits is 70.000 or less, and also check and see if the current firmware actually supports 70.000 erpm.

There are other features that may not work right with a mid drive either, like the traction control.

Mammalian04 said:

I am wondering specifically what complications Andrey anticipates a noob having problems with. Is it the programming of the controller, bike handling, or simply working out the extra moving parts?

Click to expand...

All of the above, and more.

Thanks gents. I'll check with LightningRods on the eRPM of the big block he is sourcing. I figured I wouldn't have regeneration on the mid-drive because of the freewheel.

GCinDC said:

and my vid of setting up a reed switch:

Click to expand...

GC, I see in the video you were using the reed switch for your eBrake cutoff. It would appear that the reed solution is cheaper and lighter. Magura is expensive at 60 bucks for a pair.

I am debating between the two as the Magura pressure switch seems more durable (e.g. things might get out of alignment if reed cable gets snagged on something). On the other hand, the Magura introduces 2 more places for potential hydraulic leaks. I'm not a fan of the barb style brake line fittings the Magura uses when splicing in (unless all bicycle lines are like that).

I also need to look into whether the Magura is DOT5 brake fluid or Mineral Oil compatible. Magura doesn't list the item on their page (that I have found).

Lastly, I will need to find out if the Magura switch is Normally Open or Normally Closed. When I find the answers, I'll try to remember to update this post.