Getting started in all of this?

Note: I know the very basics of electricity and have touched the Arduino uno. Other then that I do not have much knowledge in this field.

Hello,

I have a 26" mountain bike and want to add a front wheel motor to give me a little boost on my ~10 mile (16km) round trip on some road with hills, and maybe even push double that distance on the off day.I want something relatively basic without it being junk. I already travel everywhere with my bike, so I dont need this motor to takeover, just to give me a nice boost when I need it. I do not need an odometer. That leaves me with a few questions:

1# Why do some prices vary so much? For example if I look at this Canadian site and were to buy these two items:
http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/conversion-kits/geared/front-ezee-kit-basic-528.html
http://www.ebikes.ca/b4810-lim-kit.html
It would cost $1684, and id have a battery that is 48v, 10ah, and Watt-hours at 20A Discharge = 489. I have no clue if that is good or not or a big ripoff.

Compared to something like this:
http://www.bmsbattery.com/ebike-kits/598-250w350w-q-85100sx-motor-e-bike-kit.html
http://www.bmsbattery.com/controller/648-s06-250w-imitation-torque-square-wave-controller.html
http://www.bmsbattery.com/673-high-c-rate-48v-20ah-li-ion-battery-heat-shrink-battery-pack.html
At $589. And even tho id be missing the wheel (maybe another $100? ) id have a 46v, 20ah battery.

What am I missing? Seems the second option is half the price for a slightly better battery(??) and about the same motor (??).


2# Is the bmsbattery build a good way to go or got any suggestions? Other then the wheel and its spokes, and I missing anything crucial?


3# I am not interested in scooters, but I have seen some with '48v motors and 500 watts' that only cost about $800-900. This of course includes en entire scooter full of materials (odometer, lights, turning signals, storage compartment, key ignition, etc, etc). How is that relatively so cheap compared to these kits?


4# Why do some front wheel motor kits include break bars for both the left and right? Shouldn't you only need the left bar break?


5# Speaking of brakes, I assume the brake powercable connecting to the wheel (or controller) only shuts off the power to the wheel and you need a separate disc or v break to actually stop the bike?

Well, considering many read here for days, or even weeks before making the first post, I would say you are missing a lot.
Ebike CA sells only quality products that they test and stand behind. Their kits are "plug and play" and you get your stuff in days, not weeks, plus the shipping is a lot less from Canada than China.
I have a couple of the exact same Ezee motor and they are made in Taiwan, not China, but mine are rear mounts, as I consider that motor a little too big and powerful for the front of a bicycle.

Having said that, I have stuff from BMS Battery and it's been a good value. They are a distributor and really don't know much about what they sell(it's incumbent on you to know, returns are impractical). But they sell so much that over the years, they have gotten much better.

Not knowing anything about you(please fill out your profile) except that you like to pedal and your bike(except the it is a MTB). I would recommend that you start with a Geared mini-motor. Whether or not you can frt. mount, depends on your forks(fill us in on your bike, pics are good).

here is a recommendation I recently made for another Noobie;

Many of us here like the "Cute"system which is the Q100 motor made by Ananda.
Recently, a new sine wave controller has been added as an option, which is tiny, smooth and has computor\display that is really slick.
Here is a list of what you would need;

http://www.bmsbattery.com/ebike-kits/63 ... e-kit.html

http://www.bmsbattery.com/36v/567-bottl ... oller.html

http://www.bmsbattery.com/accessory/611 ... ottle.html

http://www.bmsbattery.com/accessory/612 ... ottle.html

http://www.bmsbattery.com/accessory/459 ... ensor.html

http://www.bmsbattery.com/36v/450-a-pai ... e-arm.html

For buying options, select 260 for the wheel motor speed and SO6S for the intergrated controller.
With the intergrated controller, I'm not sure if PAS(pedal assist sensor) is available, but I don't think it's that needed with this set-up. If you really needed it, you might have to go with an external controller.
Top speed would be about 20 mph and with the great gearing the GT has, you could add a could mph pedaling.
Range would be about 20 miles.
I think shipping would be around $200(you can go thru the ordering process w\out buying to see), making for a $500 system.
Lot's of info on various Cute builds here, but I think the frt. 260 rpm motor would be the right stuff for that bike.

That's really just the tip of the iceburg. Exactly which motor, controller and battery depends on your bike and needs.

If the mini seems like something you would like to do, start reading using keywords; Cute Q100CST, Q100H, SO6S , KU63 , torque arms and bottle battery.

BTW, Chinese electric scooters are total junk and very few who buy them are happy in the long run, whereas, an Ebike the rider puts together is much more satisfying. They really are not comparable.

Welcome
Ebikes.ca or Grin Technologies is the premier supplier in the Western Hemisphere for Ebike stuff. Naturally they are a bit more expensive but they stand behind their products and are really willing to help their customers. BMS Battery can sell you good stuff relatively cheap, but they are not completely reliable and good luck if something goes wrong and you must return something. That said, I have not had a bad experience ordering from them, but some have. Definitely spend a week or two reading this site, including the Beginners (NOOB) material and the Wiki. Then ask questions. Then buy.
otherDoc

Its really simple, one product is already on this continent, and comes from a seller that provides outstanding customer service, and invents ebike stuff others scramble to imitate.

Btw, one of those services, is paying for this forum to exist. That's Grin.

The other is in china, and you can find threads here that describe their service.

Welcome Chris.



3#Cheap $600 junk scooters are piles of turd. They arrive off the ship rusting, the brakes don't work, the batteries die and in 6 months it is just taking up space in a corner of the garage.


4# & 5# The breaks are just like normal brake handles but with a small switch inside that deactivates the motor so it isn't trying to push against the breaks and also as a safety cut off e.g. in case the throttle gets stuck wide open. So there is one for front and rear. I don't use them.

Just about a year ago my 26" front wheel kit arrived from ELifeBike (more or less http://www.elifebike.com/peng/iview.asp?KeyID=dtpic-2011-43-GR8W.234ME this kit) and my battery arrived from BMSBattery (sort of like this one http://www.bmsbattery.com/packs/622-36v-15ah-lithium-ion-alloy-shell-ebike-battery-pack.html). The differences are that the motor on my kit didn't have Hall sensors - I guess that's the M model as opposed to my Q model? And the battery case is different, which turns out to be important as I'll mention later. As for the motor, some motors have a connector between the motor and the wire that leads to the controller. That makes it easier to remove the wheel without having to undo the wiring - my motor didn't, the wire runs from the wheel all the way to the connector by the controller. That hasn't been an issue; I can change a flat without disconnecting the wire, and could even have it trued if I needed that but the wheel has been fine.

Cost was around $200 for the kit and $400 for the battery, including shipping. That's for a 24 volt Q100 motor and 36 volt battery. I was assured by folks here that the Q100 would have no problem with 36 volts and they were correct.

I chose front wheel because I didn't want to have to worry about the cassette/freewheel issues, and because I wanted the weight better distributed. The battery is on the back and most of the bike weight hits the back wheel. I think it was a good decision for my use. If I was going for a 1000 watt 48 volt system, that's a different issue.

I dumped all the parts on the floor and started trying to figure out what each thing was for; there were no instructions but mostly the connectors could only fit together one way, and with tremendous help from this forum I started to put the bike together. I had a Schwinn ClearCreek comfort bike, which at least has an alloy fork - supposedly you shouldn't use an aluminum fork with a front drive motor. I do have a torque arm installed just to be safer. The dropouts are what holds the axle in place, so you don't want those to break and let the motor spin out. A bike isn't designed for power pulling from the front wheel. I was worried that the front fork and other parts wouldn't be up to having a motor on the bike, but the power of the motor isn't enough to have that be a consideration. The dropouts are more of a concern.

Mostly I had little problem getting it together, but I'd never removed cranks before nor the bottom bracket, and both of those are necessary to put the PAS (Pedal Assist) sensor on the bottom bracket. And it turns out that I needed a longer bottom bracket to hold the PAS correctly. Otherwise the brakes went on easy enough, and the throttle and main display (called the 810).

The three speed deal was confusing. Folks were telling me that the bike would go faster if I shorted two of the wires to each other but I had no idea what wires we were talking about. It turns out that those wires were already being used by the 810 Display unit, which has a mode button that controls which of the three speeds are selected. By speeds, I mean how much power is available to power the bike. On the lowest setting, the bike will go 13-15 mph. Middle setting, 16-18, high setting, 19-22.

Now a quick bit about PAS and the throttle. More expensive setups have real torque sensors, like BionX actually knows how hard you're pedaling because it measures how much the rear axle is bending. Cheaper kits, like this one, use a sensor that knows how fast the pedals are turning, but not how much effort you're putting into it. So the BionX really can say that it's adding 25%, or 50%, etc, to whatever you're doing. My cheap piece of crap, much as I love it, is essentially an on/off switch. As soon as PAS determines that I'm pedaling fast enough, it kicks on the motor. And it's going to go 15, or 18, or 22 depending on that mode switch. It doesn't matter how much effort I'm putting in. Since the gearing on my bike is meant for old fogies (like me), it's tough to actually do any significant pedaling on either of the higher two modes. Still, mostly I leave it on the low setting so I get some exercise, and always pedal even if it isn't doing much (or anything).

The throttle overrides the PAS. Any use of the throttle and PAS cuts out and the throttle controls the assist, but within the limits set by the 3 speed modes. In low mode, the throttle will go 0-15, in high, 0-22. So, often I use the throttle as a brake. If I want to go slower than the full-out speed that PAS wants, I use the throttle to hold it to what I want. That's a bit counter-intuitive but works. I've gotten very used to using PAS and the throttle; I rarely even realize what my thumb is doing on the throttle. Sometimes, and this is weird, I'll release the throttle so I can get ready to stop, and the bike actually accelerates a bit since it takes PAS a few seconds to realize that I've stopped pedaling. That sounds worse than it really is because the motor just isn't strong enough to do much in the few seconds between releasing the throttle and PAS cutting out. And of course the brakes cut off any motor use instantly and easily overpower the motor even if it was still on.

Battery life for my 15ah 36 volt battery is around 50 miles. I ride it 25 miles most days and use half the battery.

Now for a bit about BMSBattery. I made two key mistakes putting the bike together. Before I had the rack together so the battery used the proprietary rack/battery interface, I was using a thick gauge solid copper wire to connect the battery to the controller. The connector on the battery looks like a standard US AC receptacle. So the thick gauge wire was actually pushing the internal metal plates too far away from each other and now the connector is failing because it isn't making good contact with the male prongs. The other critical mistake was not having the rack fastened securely enough to the seatpost when I took my maiden voyage on the bike and it snapped and the battery end slammed into the ground, breaking the back of the case. Both are my fault, so I just ordered a replacement case from BMSBattery, and I described the part that was failing and whether I could get a replacement. Last night I received an email from them, in perfectly good English, asking for a more detailed description and a picture of the part. So, while I haven't actually gotten the parts I need, I'm now hopeful that they will send the right parts. Of course, the case is $25 and shipping is $70, so I ordered an extra controller and a bunch of other parts just to have them.

And, the new battery cases that BMSBattery are selling, like the one you'll likely get, make a big deal about using Anderson connectors. Those are much better connectors than the one that my battery had. So apparently they do learn from past issues and their communication seems to be improving as well.

Well, that's my report. Let me know if I can help in any way.

Welcome to ES****Do this before your first post or now (it's retroactive)*****
Please go to the User Control Panel, select Profile, and then enter your city, state/province, and country into the Location field (country minimum) and save it. Once done, your location will appear in every post so you won't have people asking where you are ever again. This will help people help you. Example: Wylie, TX, USA. or just USA, but country as a minimum, and country is the most important. There are many cities with the same name all over the world. Without knowing what country you are in it's hard to make any recommendations. Thank you.

Some dealers are higher than others. That's just the way it is. Some provide good after market service, some don't. If price is an issue, you should look to ebay volume sellers or shop around more. There are places that sell DIY kits cheap. Their overhead is a lot less and they can sell for a lot less. Here's another oprtion of hundreds to choose from. I'm guessing you are in Canada.
http://www.goldenmotor.ca/products/26-Inch-36V-Rear-PRO-902-Conversion-Kit.html

Welcome to the forum.

1) prices vary with quality, the Canadian site you picked is known for being that pinical of quality in parts and service. The owner invented much of the tech we commonly use, and is pushing the inovation envelope with the products they develope.

BMSbattery is at about the absolute lowest level of product quality control and non-existent customer service. While the motors they sell are fine for low to middle end quality, they don't always send you what you ordered. returns have actualy happened, but they charge you for the initial shipping, the return shipping, and the reshipping of the new part, even when it's their fault. Also, their batteries are total crap. best to only use them for motors. Do you like to gamble?

2) A good middle ground between the two is EM3ev.com.
He's still shipping out of China, but Paul is trusted and caries fair products at a fair price.

3) Those scooters would be worth more if they were made of actual turds. Turds at least have value as fertilizer. Imagine the worst quality thing you can imagine. now imagine what it will look like in 100 years. box that future decayed version up and sell it as new, and you have the idea of what those scooters are like.

4) The brake switches cut the motor off when you apply the brakes, just in case you can't remember to let go of the throttle. Sometimes you won't want to use the front brake. sometimes you won't use the rear brake. it just depends on the situation when you go to stop. the switch is there for both.

5)yep. Now with a rear wheel motor and direct drive motors, you can use the brake switch for regenerative braking. you still should have a rear brake as well, though

4)

Drunkskunk said:

3) Those scooters would be worth more if they were made of actual turds. Turds at least have value as fertilizer. Imagine the worst quality thing you can imagine. now imagine what it will look like in 100 years. box that future decayed version up and sell it as new, and you have the idea of what those scooters are like.

Click to expand...

I appreciate both the poetry and effectiveness of your description my friend. Thank you.

Too late Luke, I already posted it on "ES quotable quotes"

motomech said:

...Having said that, I have stuff from BMS Battery and it's been a good value. They are a distributor and really don't know much about what they sell(it's incumbent on you to know, returns are impractical). But they sell so much that over the years, they have gotten much better...

Click to expand...

I was considering to buy the battery from BMSbattery. I have some bad experience with some other batteries that I have. It caught on fire after I put them in a storage together with all my tools. The result is that all my tools are melted together with the battery. Luckily, no one was hurt.

So my question is that if their batteries are safe to use?

Drunkskunk said:

1) prices vary with quality, the Canadian site you picked is known for being that pinical of quality in parts and service. The owner invented much of the tech we commonly use, and is pushing the inovation envelope with the products they develope.

Click to expand...

And he can walk on water too. Give me a break. From what I know of him, he's a great guy, but most the tech we use today was invented long before he was born. He has certainly been a driving force in certain ebike parts developement, but he's just a man, not a god. I think he'd agree with me.
The one major problem i have with ES is how some of the members here push noobs looking for a basic system towards expensive parts/dealers, knowing, or maybe not, there are a lot cheaper alternatives that will work just as good and sometimes better.

middriveebike said:

So my question is that if their batteries are safe to use?

Click to expand...

No battery is safe. Not even sla. They've all been known to explode, catch on fire, etc. under certain conditions. Handled properly, all of them are relatively safe. A gun can save your life or it can kill you. So can electricity.

liveforphysics said:

Drunkskunk said:

3) Those scooters would be worth more if they were made of actual turds. Turds at least have value as fertilizer. Imagine the worst quality thing you can imagine. now imagine what it will look like in 100 years. box that future decayed version up and sell it as new, and you have the idea of what those scooters are like.

Click to expand...

I appreciate both the poetry and effectiveness of your description my friend. Thank you.

Click to expand...

Now wait a minute, I have great fun buying up those "Turds" for as little as $20 and making them better than when they were new, then selling them for less than they were new even though they're better. I'm not looking for any REAL fertilizer, just those. Oh, they've already alienated the original owners to anything electric, but at least I'm having MY fun.

When I was racing the pocket and midi bikes I got one shipped to me that wouldn't roll. I never quite put my finger on the overall problem, but I suppose there was a bent frame to go with all the other little things affecting it. None of the junk scooters I've worked on was ever as bad as that.

BMSBattery have a nice range of batteries, motors and controllers. It's very rare to get a problem with them these days. A lot of us on the UK electric bike forum use BMSBattery as the preferred supplier. I'm now up to 26 orders with them. If you configure your own kit from mix-and-match parts, you'll have to do a bit of your own wiring and soldering. It depends what you order. They do some kits that are plug-and-play too. There stuff isn't bad quality. Some of their motors and controllers are much better than those from some of the other suppliers mentioned above, but it depends what you want.

Rather than try and sort out the best supplier first, it would be better to decide what performance criteria you need, and then look at what options there are to fulfil them.

Buying bigger items from outside the country you live in will almost always be more expensive than buying from a volume seller within your country if you are lucky enough to have one. Here in the US, there are a bunch of them to chose from.

Tnx for the comments, been a little busy recently to read everything, but here is a picture of my bike.

Drunkskunk said:

BMSbattery is at about the absolute lowest level of product quality control and non-existent customer service. While the motors they sell are fine for low to middle end quality, they don't always send you what you ordered. returns have actualy happened, but they charge you for the initial shipping, the return shipping, and the reshipping of the new part, even when it's their fault. Also, their batteries are total crap. best to only use them for motors. Do you like to gamble?

Click to expand...

Yea, there's a few highly experienced people on the forum you'll want to listen to, and Drunkskunk is on my short list as one! There a few such companies that front the Chinese production and you'll want to be wary of them. http://em3ev.com/store/ is also one, a British guy working in Hong Kong, but very well regarded here on the ES forum, selling the good stuff. You may also want to check out my Top 10 eBike Conversion Kits & Where to Buy. listing for folks exactly in your position. Best!

I should start out by saying right now I am unemployed /self-employed right now. So although sometimes I might be very busy for a week or so, overall right now time is more expendable then money. That being said, I could throw in as much as $1300 for a top notch system, but id love to spend about half that if possible. Looking for something overall simple to get my feet wet, yet powerful. Or at least something that could be upgraded later, so maybe a very basic setup with a good motor and battery. The only feature I do want is the ability to easily remove the battery and somehow lock it to my bike when its attached. I am also willing to buy a new bike for this. I use my bike during the winter, so at the very least I will need to buy a very cheap winter bike since I do not want to use an electric bike in the winter.

motomech: Something at $500 sounds very interesting, but I wouldnt mind something a tad more powerful. Sometimes I need to get up early for appointments and need to ride up hile. Id love to have a motor that is at least capable of giving me good speeds in a pinch. Also your link aren't working. I do not need PAS.

docnjoj: I will find some time to read over some of the info on the wiki.

Gregory: I feel silly asking that question about the brakes. I do not have rear brakes, so I had a mental derp.

dgk02: That kit does look interesting and its something ive looked at. But that is only the motor and not the wheel correct?

I like the idea of three speed settings. This would allow me to quickly change the speed (power to the motor) manually. I kind of see myself only using the motor when going uphill. And I am fine turning it off manually or turning it on as needed (as long as its a simple push of the button)

I also do not like the idea of spending $200 on shipping for $300 on parts. If shipping is that much id rather spend more on parts so shipping is overall less while upgrading to better parts.

wesnewell: I updated my location. goldenmotor was a site I looked at. I guess part of the problem I have is often looking at these kits is 'what is missing form this kit', 'what battery would work good', and 'what extra parts/wires would I need to make this work'.

The only extra thing I've needed to install a kit and get it running was a battery pack. After that I've replaced replaced the fuse and added a precharge setup, and minor stuff. Nothing more than $20 total, including a $5 voltmeter to monitor battery voltage.

dgk02 said:

Incorrect. You get to pick the wheel size, and the wheel is included. I have a 26". Of course, it isn't the greatest wheel in the world; you can buy wheels that cost far more than the whole kit. But it is a double rim and since it's a front wheel there isn't that much weight being placed on it. I actually expected trouble with the wheel but I haven't even broken a spoke and I've probably put well over 1500 miles on it.

Click to expand...

Any breaks included in that kit or would I need to add v breaks, or would my existing disc break fit beside the motor?

I really like how cheap that kit is. Even if it only last me a year and I buy a good battery then in theory I could just buy a better kit later and keep my expensive battery.

Chris456345234 said:

dgk02 said:

Incorrect. You get to pick the wheel size, and the wheel is included. I have a 26". Of course, it isn't the greatest wheel in the world; you can buy wheels that cost far more than the whole kit. But it is a double rim and since it's a front wheel there isn't that much weight being placed on it. I actually expected trouble with the wheel but I haven't even broken a spoke and I've probably put well over 1500 miles on it.

Click to expand...

Any breaks included in that kit or would I need to add v breaks, or would my existing disc break fit beside the motor?

I really like how cheap that kit is. Even if it only last me a year and I buy a good battery then in theory I could just buy a better kit later and keep my expensive battery.

Click to expand...

You get two brake handles for the handlebars but they would have to work with your brakes; they worked with my V-Brakes, I don't know about disk brakes. The handles (what's the right word for those) have the wire that cuts off the motor when you squeeze them even the smallest bit.