Hubmonster 94% efficient 7kw NO LONGER FOR SALE

Hey mate, John's hub will be fine for up to 30kw at <100v. With Kelly controllers it's possible to go up to 170v which I would say with proper venting and some forced cooling the motor will handle 50kw if you are gearing the bike for around 120km/h.

Kelly controllers have fairly bad take off current which aides in heat management. Atm the ideal controllers to me that are available would be the adaptto max e for max power of 30kw. Atm I just ordered a pair of max e controllers for a mid-monster build I am doing

I took his 40hp desire as output, not peak input. We don't know what saturation point is, but regardless it's still better to go with higher voltage. I've spun mine as high as 2100rpm and no-load current wasn't out of hand even with a tire on (plenty of fan power), so I think it's reasonable to think iron losses won't get high at 2500 or even 3000rpm. To get there under load we're talking nearly 200V, and 150A puts you in the broad flat efficiency curve of current limiting for that 30kw input. That puts 50kw in reach at the current limits I run, and who knows what's possible at what some of you have pumped into it.

All we need is cheap 200V controllers that can take 150A or so battery side input...With real throttle control and variable regen of course. In the meantime, I'm going to accept the weight penalty and try a 2wd with lower voltage and larger wheels and 6kwh of battery for a low sleek silent road cruiser.

Wow 2 of those monsters at play, sounds almost scary
You topped 107 with 1 of those. Are you gunning for world records or will they have different winds?

macribs said:

Wow 2 of those monsters at play, sounds almost scary
You topped 107 with 1 of those. Are you gunning for world records or will they have different winds?

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There's only one wind. It will have more normal wheel diameters, but I'll run 74-82V nominal vs the 111V I run now. I don't want the top speed I have now. In fact once I make a better documented run, I plan to go to a lower voltage on my SuperV. I don't need anything near that kind of speed, and by running such a high voltage I give up low speed efficiency, especially during acceleration...or accelerating against gravity going up hills. I'll be running a lower total load per motor, but the battery will be heavy enough that the load won't be too much less. I just hope that I have enough front wheel traction to pump 12-15kw into the front motor, and with a 500lb or so total load I think that's within reason, since my first hubmotored ebike put several Kv through the front wheel of a light build and I didn't have problems even in sand or gravel.

If traction is an issue, then I'll just have to pull out the pocketbook and pay one of the ES experts to give me traction control software for my controllers. Other than not having the ability to park without a kickstand, I have little doubt that a 2wd emoto will be far better than those 3 wheel scooters that can cause a crash in certain circumstances. 2wd is the holy grail that gasser motos have never been able to pull off reasonably, despite many millions invested by the big companies. Sure we will need lighter high powered hubbies to lessen the unsprung weight, but I believe 2wd emotos will be commonplace in the not too distant future...no not for sportbike performance, but for better cruiser performance and handling, sure.

I can make you traction control software!!!! HOw much?!!

John in CR said:

macribs said:

Wow 2 of those monsters at play, sounds almost scary
You topped 107 with 1 of those. Are you gunning for world records or will they have different winds?

Click to expand...

There's only one wind. It will have more normal wheel diameters, but I'll run 74-82V nominal vs the 111V I run now. I don't want the top speed I have now. In fact once I make a better documented run, I plan to go to a lower voltage on my SuperV. I don't need anything near that kind of speed, and by running such a high voltage I give up low speed efficiency, especially during acceleration...or accelerating against gravity going up hills. I'll be running a lower total load per motor, but the battery will be heavy enough that the load won't be too much less. I just hope that I have enough front wheel traction to pump 12-15kw into the front motor, and with a 500lb or so total load I think that's within reason, since my first hubmotored ebike put several Kv through the front wheel of a light build and I didn't have problems even in sand or gravel.

If traction is an issue, then I'll just have to pull out the pocketbook and pay one of the ES experts to give me traction control software for my controllers. Other than not having the ability to park without a kickstand, I have little doubt that a 2wd emoto will be far better than those 3 wheel scooters that can cause a crash in certain circumstances. 2wd is the holy grail that gasser motos have never been able to pull off reasonably, despite many millions invested by the big companies. Sure we will need lighter high powered hubbies to lessen the unsprung weight, but I believe 2wd emotos will be commonplace in the not too distant future...no not for sportbike performance, but for better cruiser performance and handling, sure.

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I just love how people here at ES keep moving forwards and push the limits all the time. 2 WD is wicked cool, although purist will shake their head and say it will be unridable due to "too high" unsprung weight. But I guess them nay sayers stated the same with other 2wd builds as well. And looking at youtube and other postings it seems those 2 wd bikes are performing rather well.

And after all, how many riders really pushes things to the far edge every time they do a commute to work? So higher unsprung might not really matter in real life. You could always build another one for crazy downhills, freeriding etc.

The gains from better acceleration, load sharing for both controllers and motors will mean less heat build up even in everyday start and stop traffic. Then fly out WOT as soon as light turns green and be the first to the next light. Now that is great fun and will ensure you meet up at work with a big grin on your face every day no matter what mood your partner at home had in the morning and evens children's arguing at breakfast will be all forgotten and replaced by a smile when you are at work.

Btw I see there are some low priced maxi scooters from China floating around these days with a need for new batteries and controllers. A 2 WD scooter with your hubmonster might be perfect for a commuter in the need of stopping for grocery on the way home, or to keep an extra helmet if picking up a kid from school etc.

What do you reckon 2 crazy motors would put out in HP? And one advantage here would be no losses in transmission etc. Every HP right on the wheel.

Could I get a paypal quote for two with rims to Goose Creek, SC?

John, have you had your hubmonster on a dyno?
It is hard to decide what motor to go for. I tiny RC motor that claims 13 kw continuous 23 peak kw at only a few kilos.
Or your heavy bad ass 6 phased hubmonster. I should really read the entire thread, but time is an issue. Sry.

On paper that tiny RC looks dawgn good. But they are not dyno tested so how can I now? And can that tiny little RC motor really propel a fat arse like me fast enough from standstill so I get a big grin? Would RC motor with little torque work well for acceleration? And how to silent those frockers?

With your hub I know speed will not be an issue that you have proven. The hubmonster is close to silent and I can use dual controllers. You hubmonster is big - and that might take away some space for batteries and dual controllers for a mid motor setup. But if I can make the hub run as efficient as possible that might not matter.

Say a setup for top speed 55-60 mph. Will your hubmonster kick me off the line fast enough to be first to next light?
I am looking mostly for die hard acceleration, or more so then top speed. As long as I pass 50 mph top it is ok. Will cooling be an issue for mid motored hubmonster?

A dyno chart would make for easier understanding of how your motor work at different voltage and Amps. Or do you know if there is some online simulators that has data for your hubmonster?

Hillsofvalp put his bike on the dyno but didn't share much in the way of results other than that he got 27.9hp at the wheel with voltage sagging below 74V, but that was long before he got his Kelly's tuned to where he was happy. Unless you're planning a big load, a MidMonster, our next smaller motor, is probably a better match for your needs in a mid-drive. To get the most out of these super-size outrunners with such a low Kv, you need to run as high a voltage as practical, since they don't become rpm limited until at least 200V based their low no load current even above 100V.

Even on the low voltage hub monsters are pretty powerful. This is a fully loaded 140kg bike with 90kg rider+full gear. And the motor is not really working hard, its just using the most powerful controllers i could find at the time.
Should be interesting soon.
[youtube]xXPBCyfox6A[/youtube]

You still have motors? I might grab another

Bluefang,
Nice clips riding around on your silent emoto. My HubMonster ride is down at the moment for a battery pack overhaul, a new rear tire, and a bit of beautification, all in preparation for a better documented top speed run. I'm hoping to push past my previous best of 172kph and hit 180kph with new and better low price controllers.

Hillsofvalp,
Yes, we always have motors. It's only the 2 speed MiniMonster that is no longer in production and we sold the last of the factory's remaining inventory.

Ah. For some reason I thought you sold out. Great! Will you honor the $519 in March?

hillzofvalp said:

Ah. For some reason I thought you sold out. Great! Will you honor the $519 in March?

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I've decided that every day is a holiday, so yes.

Looking to electrify a 150cc Chinese scooter I bought. After welding up a new swing arm, this looks like it would work well.

cancerkazoo said:

Looking to electrify a 150cc Chinese scooter I bought. After welding up a new swing arm, this looks like it would work well.

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The factory makes them for the electric scooters they sell. If you want to run it in wheel, then the biggest issue is the weight, which will force you to use lower current than we are using on lighter bikes. If you run it out of wheel with a simple chain or belt reduction, then you get 2 big advantages if you want to get high performance. You can easily go to 50% higher voltage and gear it down, and in that manner power is increase by 50% with no increase in copper losses and a quite small increase in iron losses. Actually in real world operation losses will decrease, because less time will be spent at high current, so copper losses in total will decrease by more than iron losses increase for a substantial increase in overall efficiency AND performance. In addition, better cooling will significantly reduce motor temps for even less copper losses, since copper resistance increases with temperature, typically 30-40% with common operating temperatures compared to ambient. Make that change 20-30% with better cooling and you've saved 10% in copper losses, which are the dominate loss in our motors. More power and performance PLUS enhanced overall efficiency is an incredible advantage only available when repurposing a hubmotor, because they are so underutilized as hubmotors. Our Monster hubmotors are the best of the bunch in this regard, because their high efficiency and low poll count make them capable of far higher rpm than is possible when used in-wheel as a hubmotor.

What's the current weight of your scooter, how much do you weigh, what kind of top speed is desired, and what kind of terrain do you have (flat, hilly, mountainous)? With the answers to those questions, I can give you an idea of the load you'll be putting on the drive system, and I can give you an idea of the kind of power you can run it at relatively free of stress.

John

I weigh 200lbs. I'll have to weigh the scooter, but I can lift it myself squatting to pick it up so my guess is around 200lbs for the scooter too.

Looking at gearing it for 50-55 then as around town speeds are 45, but people drive 50-55. Probably a jackshaft at the swingarm pivot point and I can reduce unsprung weight.

What controllers are recommended? Can a CAv3 connect to both of them to limit current? Do some controllers work as a slave? Do you just connect the inputs in parallel?

Slowly reading through the tread to see if this has been covered.

Also rear tire size should be 130/60-13 or I may go with a 12" spoked rim of similar diameter. Right now I have 24s of 20c turnigy batteries for testing, but can do whatever.

interesting thread.

John in CR,

Sorry, I am sure you get lots of these questions. Appreciate your time. I'm working on a build for which many people have suggested I use your motor.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=69333

My question is, what output and configuration would you recommend for a battery pack to pair with your motor?
I'm considering the Leaf modules, RC packs, and 18650.

Leaf modules:
60Ah rated - 7.6V - 500 Wh - max continuous power 1875W or 240A
Peak current 540A

Any thoughts would be helpful and appreciated.

Thank you,

SHiFT

Hi SHiFT,

I saw you listed a bike weight under 150lb but not rider weight or the riding terrain. One thing I can guarantee is that gearing HubMonster down to a low top speed will give you more torque at the wheel than you could ever need. That means very low motor stress due to reduced current requirements resulting in even less heat from the most efficient hubmotor around.

The motor doesn't care what batteries feed it, so you're constrained by size, range, and risk...and of course price. In my personal battery stash I have Leaf modules, A123amp20's, and RC lipo...and soon Chevy Volt modules. I have 18650's too, but I'll use their small size that gives me more pack shape flexibility for ebikes with more limited space. I'm frugal, but if budget isn't a concern then the higher energy density of the most modern 18650's is hard to pass up, because you can go for bigger range for the same weight.

Forget any extra sprocket and go straight from the motor to wheel. The elegant solution is mounting the motor at the center of the swingarm pivot, but on the swingarm close to the pivot can be easier and still little effect on the unsprung weight.

With such a lightweight build, and assuming you aren't an extra large load yourself, then for a street machine, don't ignore the simplicity of using it as a hubmotor. The space savings is a huge plus too. The greater unsprung weight is just a matter of proper suspension tuning. Big motorcycle wheels certainly often weigh far more than HubMonster in a wheel. I ran mine for over a year in stock form pushing an all up load of almost 400lbs pushing 220A thru the motor at 74V nominal giving me a top speed of 67mph. Sure running it out of the wheel with a gear reduction is better, because it enables you to run the motor at higher voltage for a given top speed for lower current for greater efficiency (ie less heat, because copper heat reduces by the square of current with very little increase in iron losses at higher rpm as demonstrated with the motor's very low no-load current for this size motor, 3.4A at almost 2krpm, and 2.7A at 1250 rpm.

If you're positive that 50mph is the max speed you'll want, and you don't have a big load from high weight or long steep hills, then you should also consider MidMonster. The design and materials are the same as HubMonster, but it has a slightly smaller stator (resulting in lower iron losses, 1.8A at 1600rpm and 1.4A at 1000rpm), and a phase to phase resistance of 0.045 ohm compared to HubMonster's 0.016 ohm (so HubMonster can ultimately handle much greater current that's partially offset by it's lower Kv of 14 which means 30% more torque per amp). MidMonster's magnet backing ring is set in a quite thick aluminum shell, making it easier to trim fat and saves 4kg off the bat over HubMonster. For 15kw peak input and lower, MidMonster is the better choice, but if you have any inklings of going to or needing extreme power, then HubMonster is the clear winner.

Thanks so much for your reply. It is very helpful. I do think that 50-55 MPH is a burst speed - passing, or on a short straight. The only place I would really get that kind of sustained speed around DC is on the freeway, and I doubt I'll be taking this on the freeway.

What I'm looking at is around an 11 mile commute through traffic, lights, small hills, stop-and-go.

MidMonster could be the contender: Load will be 400lbs give or take. I'm 220, but I am counting on the bike weighing in heavier than the aggressive 150 lb goal. Long steep climbs... I won't be going up any mountains, but hills are a reality.

Any particular controller you recommend?

Thank you,

SHiFT

SHiFT,

While MidMonster is capable of your needs, adding to the top end and having a greater load forces you to a pack voltage above 100V (111-118V nominal) to get to the power you need without falling into the almost universal trap of high power builds, increasing current to levels where heat becomes the primary concern. Going above 100V cancels out the savings of a lower priced motor with increased controller costs, and pushing the smaller motor closer to it's limits gives you less flexibility, especially regarding controllers.

WRT controllers, I don't have a firm recommendation today, but that will change very soon. We just finished 6 months of real world testing of a line of low priced feature packed controllers for which we have a direct factory relationship, so expect an exciting announcement quite soon.

Thank you. I'll be looking forward to the announcement!

I am contemplating using them on a car conversion

158v nominal
2 x hubmonster geared around 3:1 to front wheels
4 adaptto emax
car all up weight 2300lb with everything including the passenger

Car uses around 11kw @ 100km/h

What are your toughts ?

Thanks

Joe90 said:

I am contemplating using them on a car conversion

158v nominal
2 x hubmonster geared around 3:1 to front wheels
4 adaptto emax
car all up weight 2300lb with everything including the passenger

Car uses around 11kw @ 100km/h

What are your toughts ?

Thanks

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11kW a 100km/h c'est vraiment bon pour une voiture! Par contre les Adaptto fonctionnent a un voltage max de 92V et avec un hubmonster d'un kv de 15 ou 18 alors c'est plus 80-85V max que je recommande. de toute façon à 85V et 160A tu obtient nue bonne puissance de la part de Adaptto Max-E

11kW for 100kmh is really good for a car! However the Adaptto are working at 92v max and witha hubmonster of a kv of 15 to 18, i would not recommannd using higher voltage than 80-85V.... anyway, with that lower voltage and about 160a you will get about 12-14kW anyway per controller.

Doc