Sabvoton SVMC072150 controller review, variable regen PICS

zombiess · Aug 10, 2014

Futterama said:
amberwolf said:

Also less load on the batteries, can use lower C-rate (probably cheaper) cells (though it requires more of them in series, of course).

Click to expand...

zombiess said:

Batteries are subject to the same stresses because it's based on power. 1000v @ 1a or 1v@1000a is the same amount of power.

Click to expand...

zombiess, when voltage goes up (more battery cells) current goes down for the same amount of power, and it is the current that stresses batteries, so the batteries are not subjected to the same stresses as you wrote.

If you take 1000 1V, 1AH cells in series and draw 1A from the 1000V battery, each cell is loaded with 1W. Take those same cells and place them all in parallel for a 1V 1000AH battery and draw 1000A from it, each cell is loaded with 1W.

For high power systems it's easier to use high voltage than it is high current to get the power due to controller limitations. When I say high power, I'm talking > 25,000W. At these power levels it makes a lot of sens to go to a +300V system. This controller is for low power scooters and high power ebikes.

zombiess · Aug 10, 2014

Here are some pics of the programming software and the wiring diagram. I am going to be working with them to improve the user interface and instructions. It's OK as is but some of the wording could be changed around a little. I also attached the wiring diagram for my customized version. If you have any questions feel free to ask.

Wire connection Instruction for Jeremy.jpg

sn0wchyld · Aug 10, 2014

zombiess said:
sn0wchyld said:

That said, i too would like to know if it can be hacked/made for 30-32s capable, as im building a mid drive, so i want to spin the motor fast, for efficirncy both of motor and controler, particually at low speeds.

Click to expand...

I don't understand your logic with this. How does high voltage = good efficiency? Efficiency is based on the overall system. It's a little more efficient to use a battery voltage that give you the desired top speed for the KV of your motor.

I dont so much want high top speeds, but efficient, high power from 5-60ishkm without worrying bout controller or motor. A 4115 or equivilant version wold have me(and a few others i imagine) lining up. Ive been chasing the russians to see if they can produce a hv version of theirs too, but getting a respone from them is kinda hit and miss........

Click to expand...

If you don't want high top speeds, but you want high voltage, what are you doing? Every reduction gear stage robs you of several percent efficiency. For a mid drive it's most efficient with just 1 stage, chain to drive gear. If you don't need high speed, then you don't need high voltage, you need a motor that has the correct KV. For that matter if you did want high speed you could do it with low voltage, it would just require more amps.

This controller is not easily hackable for higher voltage, it's much much more complex than a Xie Chang controller. Huge difference in how it rides and how much better the features are.

sorry, looks like i didn't make it clear... the logic is that I already have (own) a motor that I want to use, due to its size, weight, power density and other features. I'd like to keep battery amps <80, probably at around 60, and have a effective wheel diameter (from the reduction stage) of <13inches, in a 26" wheel.

The efficiency isn't from high voltage, but high rpms. And yes, not higher peak so much as a wider high efficiency band, and generally speaking, 'easier' for the controller to run at high load, low speed, trials type riding - while still providing a good top speed. and please note, i'm saying high power to 60km'h - ie a top speed of 80+, so the peak power output comes somewhere around 50km'h.

For the power level, and speed that I want, this means running around 30s lipo to get the necessary voltage.

The reduction stage is a nessasary loss that i have to live with, since I absolutely dont want a hub drive (unsprung weight) - particularly wanting something that will easily handle >6kw without a thought being given to heat, nor do I want the look of a hub motor, though thats far less important.

Hope that clears things up... Basically, im constrained by the motor that I have/want to use. I can use an infinion with 4115's... but since I havent bought one yet, I hoped this might be a possible better alternative. Unfortunately not though it seems... thanks anyway.

zombiess · Aug 10, 2014

Yes, that makes more sense now.

If you do build a 30S setup, please make sure you know how to work around high voltage safely. These battery packs can be lethal and I think many of us on here don't realize how dangerous it is.

I loved running 30S on one of my bikes, but I was after the acceleration and power it provided with the Xie Changs. With the controllers I've built and this one, I can get the same level of acceleration and top speed without needing the high voltage. The Xie Chang controllers did not do a good job at regulating phase current output and if that is your only reference (as it was mine until I got my Lebowski controller running a little while ago) it's misleading. The Cheap controllers like the Xie Chang will allow a lot more phase amps to flow vs a controller with phase current control. Adding more voltage to a Xie Chang without changing the settings = more acceleration and more top speed. Depending on the battery voltage and motor, with phase current control, adding more voltage only = more top speed. With phase current control based controllers I have not noticed any additional acceleration going from a 75V battery to a 100V battery.

Lebowski · Aug 11, 2014

You can't deny though that 30s will give more speed (speed, not accelleration) than 20s, and that the motor on 30s will accellerate strongly into the higher rpms.

sn0wchyld · Aug 11, 2014

zombiess said:
Yes, that makes more sense now.

If you do build a 30S setup, please make sure you know how to work around high voltage safely. These battery packs can be lethal and I think many of us on here don't realize how dangerous it is.

I loved running 30S on one of my bikes, but I was after the acceleration and power it provided with the Xie Changs. With the controllers I've built and this one, I can get the same level of acceleration and top speed without needing the high voltage. The Xie Chang controllers did not do a good job at regulating phase current output and if that is your only reference (as it was mine until I got my Lebowski controller running a little while ago) it's misleading. The Cheap controllers like the Xie Chang will allow a lot more phase amps to flow vs a controller with phase current control. Adding more voltage to a Xie Chang without changing the settings = more acceleration and more top speed. Depending on the battery voltage and motor, with phase current control, adding more voltage only = more top speed. With phase current control based controllers I have not noticed any additional acceleration going from a 75V battery to a 100V battery.

yes... absolutely. in my case, the pack will be housed inside a monocoque frame, as will all powered parts (controller, motor), safe away from prying fingers, so should only be able to hurt itself on the off chance something does short out. Charge port will only be accessible when the pack is broken down to 8 or 10s, depending on my final config. I've had my fill of jerry rigged builds with wires haning everywhere and stuff breaking (ie, spokes!!) every other ride - hence this undertaking.

Lebowski said:
You can't deny though that 30s will give more speed (speed, not accelleration) than 20s, and that the motor on 30s will accellerate strongly into the higher rpms.

I want to still be able to scare myself hitting full throttle at 50+km'h...
:twisted:

I

flexy · Aug 11, 2014

Hi Zombiess,

For those of us who already own Sabvoton controllers, is there as way to implement the variable regen ?

John in CR · Aug 11, 2014

Lebowski said:
You can't deny though that 30s will give more speed (speed, not accelleration) than 20s, and that the motor on 30s will accellerate strongly into the higher rpms.

I'd argue that it gives greater acceleration too, maybe not in the first few rotations of the tire, but definitely in the low to mid speeds as acceleration starts to taper earlier at the lower voltage. With a change in gearing somewhat less than the change in voltage you get greater performance in every aspect, acceleration and speed. That is unless you were already starting to hit the iron limits of rpm, and that's where all those common hubbies with the crazy number of slots and poles fall flat on their face and only dream about 100mph. :mrgreen:

Sigmacom · Aug 13, 2014

Has it been determined if this controller does boost conversion in slip regen? Also what about a built in battery-side shunt with connection for CA compatability?

zombiess · Aug 14, 2014

Sigmacom said:
Has it been determined if this controller does boost conversion in slip regen? Also what about a built in battery-side shunt with connection for CA compatability?

It has to do boost in order to charge up the battery, regen will work all the way to 0 RPM if you set it that low.

I have a wiring kit I'm assembling this weekend with a 200A shunt, a harness that plugs into the cycle analyst and a 200A fuse + 4/8 gauge wiring and good crimp connectors. I'm installing the main battery ones on the power feed to the controller to make the job easier on the end user.

snellemin · Aug 15, 2014

This Sabvoton looks like a better option for my bike vs the more expensive Russian Max-E. Would be cool if the Sabvoton can be used to charge the battery pack like the Max-E does.

sven_nilsson · Aug 16, 2014

Lebowski said:
You can't deny though that 30s will give more speed (speed, not accelleration) than 20s, and that the motor on 30s will accellerate strongly into the higher rpms.

I just purchased this 72V 150A controller and need some guidance on how many cells to use.

I read that the voltage protection limit is 95V, which would mean 29-30 cells.
Can I use that many, or would it be risky business?

parabellum · Aug 16, 2014

sven_nilsson said:
Lebowski said:

You can't deny though that 30s will give more speed (speed, not accelleration) than 20s, and that the motor on 30s will accellerate strongly into the higher rpms.

Click to expand...

I just purchased this 72V 150A controller and need some guidance on how many cells to use.

I read that the voltage protection limit is 95V, which would mean 29-30 cells.
Can I use that many, or would it be risky business?

Where did you get 95V? OP=smart guy says 85V in first post! 30 cells of what chemistry? 30 NiMH= 42V, thats low. 30 Lipo=126V way to high, 30 Lifepo= 108V still high. At 29 cell same thing. Specify!

sven_nilsson · Aug 16, 2014

Hi!

I'll use prismatic LiFePO4, 3.2V. 30 cells make 96V which is over the limit, as stated here:

http://www.sabvoton.com/product/72v-6kw-brushless-motor-controller.html#.U--1mfmSxNQ

SVMC072150 72V 150A 350A 95V

I first thought about using 25 cells (80V) so that you can charge the cells with say 3.8V and still never exceed the limit during the charging process.
However, I'll use more cells if it is possible.

Regards

MitchJi · Aug 16, 2014

Hi,

5,What’s your current voltage level?
For the moment ,our controller ‘s voltage range from 48V to 72V,our 96V will come out soon,let’s looking forward to this new generation!

Merlin · Aug 16, 2014

For the 72150
The max voltage is 100 Volt... Not 100,0001 volt.
You can Setup up to... But it is strongly Not recommend.
Theres no need for more than 90v with this 72150 Controller because with flux weakining you are Not Limited anymore to the Motors max speed from used voltage.

20s or 84v means 100kph

zombiess · Aug 16, 2014

I would not consider it reliable to run over 85V and that could be pushing it. The MOSFETs are rated for 100V absolute maximum and 85V only gives you a 15% margin of error which is not much. A 75V pack should be plenty. The voltages I'm giving are the fully charged voltage of the battery pack, not the nominal voltage.

parabellum · Aug 16, 2014

sven_nilsson said:
Hi!

I'll use prismatic LiFePO4, 3.2V. 30 cells make 96V which is over the limit, as stated here:

http://www.sabvoton.com/product/72v-6kw-brushless-motor-controller.html#.U--1mfmSxNQ

SVMC072150 72V 150A 350A 95V

I first thought about using 25 cells (80V) so that you can charge the cells with say 3.8V and still never exceed the limit during the charging process.
However, I'll use more cells if it is possible.

Regards

Take 85V/3.6v= 23S Lifepo max and 85V/4.2V= 20S LiPo max. Read Zombiess comments and take them as truth(at least for now it is most confident source).

100volts+ · Aug 16, 2014

subscribed

zombiess · Aug 16, 2014

parabellum said:
Take 85V/3.6v= 23S Lifepo max and 85V/4.2V= 20S LiPo max. Read Zombiess comments and take them as truth(at least for now it is most confident source).

I would prefer the comment be taken as advice and the end user due their own due diligence, I'm far from an oracle.

100volts+ · Aug 16, 2014

Size of the new Generation....64 * 165 * 185mm)

I already know where to put that baby-On the top tube near the handle bars, and I'll conceal it with a faux gas tank type of covering.

sven_nilsson · Aug 17, 2014

Thanks a bunch for the advice!

My project is this huge trekking bike. The top tube is at the same height as my waist - you have to be real careful when you're going to stop, or it will hurt your balls big time

Using 20-24 20Ah cells, since the bike is huge and has this rather unusual placement of the rear shock, I may be able to fit controller and cells inside the triangle.

The biggest difficulty will probably be to secure the cells tight enough. I will need to use some kind of side-plates to cover the triangle.

Regards

ctirad · Aug 19, 2014

flexy said:
For those of us who already own Sabvoton controllers, is there as way to implement the variable regen ?

I'm interested in the same thing. Generaly, is it possible to upgrade the firmware?

zombiess · Aug 19, 2014

ctirad said:
flexy said:

For those of us who already own Sabvoton controllers, is there as way to implement the variable regen ?

Click to expand...

I'm interested in the same thing. Generaly, is it possible to upgrade the firmware?

Not that I know of.

Chuleo · Aug 20, 2014

There is no possibility to update the controller. I Asked kathy some days ago, this is her answer:

From Kathy: I am sorry we don't have that updatable module in our programs,and the whole software is kept by our boss ,it is against our policy to reveal it to anyone but our engineer.sorry we could not support this time.
Of course I didnt ask for the source files. But the don't want to provide a compiled version, either.

And another answer from kathy regarding the voltage: (...) ,now back to our discussion,as long as the voltage of the fully charged battery of yours is less than 100V,our 72V controller will do the work for you.Kind remind that once the battery voltage exceed 100V,even it lasts for 1ms or any time shorter,the controller will get damaged definitely.

Hope that helps.
Regards
Chuleo

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