STOLEN: MAC 8T, OSN A123 48V on Trek Shift 3

[arkmundi]

TrekShift3.png (207.51 KiB) Viewed 6482 times

This is a build thread. For the discussion set leading into this build, please see:

• Top 10 eBike Conversion Kits & Where to Buy
• Ebike Design Idea - Please Critique!
• Cellman Mac 8T with Infineon 9fet 4110 30A limits please

Index {as build progresses for anyone interested}
Final Discussion of motor & controller specs
The Battery
Final Parts List
Parts received, begin the build
Video: First Spin
Done
Experience
Had an axle spin-out

[arkmundi]

Final Discussion of motor & controller specs

Before I purchase, need reality check. What I'm planning for is the MAC, and wanting closer to 1000 watts, using a 72volt battery. I'm a heavy guy riding in the hills of Worcester, wanting more torque, but not the lowest speed, because I need that too. So choosing the 10T.

http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route= ... uct_id=138

• Upgrade EM3ev vers. Mac , 500/1000W Pick'n'Mix Kit
• Controller Type Infineon 9 fet 30A (36-75V, IRFB4110)
• Motor Speed 255rpm loaded @36V 10T Upgrade
• Front/Rear Motor: Rear
• Wheel Type 26" Alex DM24 CNC
• Spoke Type Sapim Upgrade (Silver)
• Throttle Type Thumb Throttle
• Ebrakes HWBS Sensor

Thanks for a reply.
cc: your web site contact page

Hi Richard,
I do not suggest you run 72V, 50V is plenty. Our 9 fet 30A controller, which is a mid-power controller, on 50V will deliver ~1500W input power, and that is at least 1000W plus output power from the motor.72V and 30A is 2160W input power.

A 10T on 50V with 9 or 12 fet controller will top out at about 25mph and have good hill climbing. You don’t want an overly high speed setup if you will be hitting lots of hills. 72V on a 10T is pretty fast and not what I would recommend for pulling some weight up steep hills.

A torque arm and freewheel is a good idea on a rear kit.

The Mac motor uses a screw on freewheel, it cannot use a cassette. The 11T DNP are popular as it allows you to pedal to a higher speed. The Mac can accept a 7 speed without any additional spacers (135mm axle width). If 8, 9 or 10 speed are used, a spacer of ~4mm is required and the axle width will increase to ~139mm. Difference between a Freewheel and a Cassette:
http://sheldonbrown.com/free-k7.html
Drawings for 7, 8 and 9 speed DNP: http://1drv.ms/QTqx1K
7sp DNP 11T Freewheel http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route= ... duct_id=63
8sp DNP 11T Freewheel
9sp DNP 11T Freewheel
10sp DNP 11T Freewheel
DNP Extractor Tool
Grin Tech Rev2 Front Torque Arm (forks with eyelets)
Grin Tech Rev3 Front Torque Arm
Grin Tech C-washers
Grin Tech Rev4 Rear Torque Arm http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route= ... duct_id=88
Torque Arm Info (manufacturers website) http://www.ebikes.ca/torque_arms/

We have an automated checkout on the site. If you select the items you are interested in, checkout as a guest (or register of course), then enter you address, you will be given a list of shipping options. Batteries should be shipped using an option with “Battery” in the description, non-battery parts you can select any option (but some options are not suitable for bulky/over-sized items). You can then checkout with Request a Quote if you are unsure about anything, want to use Wire Transfer or want to discuss an order. Checkout with PayPal if you are ready to Proceed. We can always modify an order if requested and will generally look over every order, and look for any possible errors. If just looking, no need to press “confirm” at the end of the checkout process.

Courier Shipment (DHL or Battery-Fedex) have a price break on 20kg plus shipments. The sub 20kg price per kg can be as much as double the 20kg plus price per kg. The first 0.5kg or 1kg of almost every shipping option are charged at a higher rate (does not apply to 20kg plus shipments, which are a fixed price per kg). It may or may not be cheaper to split an order into Battery and Non-Battery Parts. Battery shipments are more expensive than non-battery shipments. Typically if total weight with kit and battery is less than 12kg, it may be a little cheaper to split the shipment. If weight is closer to 20kg, it will generally be cheaper to combine and get the cheaper shipping cost for 20kg plus shipments. All scenarios can be checked using the online checkout. Note that some less popular destinations may not have all shipping options listed (but they may be available), so it would be best to checkout with request a quote.

Thanks

Paul

So, what I'm doing is a combination of advise from ES-forum expert opinion, what Paul says here and on his web site. I'm sticking with the Infineon 4110 controller. What this means is risk of over-heating the motor and possibly damaging it. It means that the throttle in my hand is part of the control and I'll need to ease back when the motor is under stress.

The logic is I want 72volts. I have my first build which is a Heinzmann 500 watt front hub and an A123 36 volt battery of my own make on a Gary Fisher Gitche Gumee frame. So when completed with this build, I'll have three 36 volt batteries with 20ah capacity each that I can use in any combination:

• 36V, 20ah on the Gitche and 72V, 20ah on the Ross
• 36V, 60ah on the Gitchee for a long haul with max torque
• 72V, 40ah on the Ross, for a longer ride with max speed {with a fourth battery build latter"}

So the logic is battery in increments of 36V, 20ah as the unit. So incrementally, 50V or 60V is not in the make. The incremental unit also allows me to standardize my charger on the batteryspace smart charger for LiFePO4 36V. More than one, probably just two. Parallel charging, but also redundancy in the mix.

Also, after long consideration, I'm going with the 8T 320rpm motor which will get me going 31mph on the flats at 48V draw (partial draw). 72V 20ah is also 36V 40ah is also 48V 33ah. My primary use of the Ross will be mostly flat higher speed travel, so I can haul ass between Worcester and Clinton, where I've got my main build going - the small house retirement home on the shores of the Nashua headwater ponds.

Per advise, I'll be adding in:

• 7sp DNP 11T Freewheel
• DNP Extractor Tool
• Grin Tech Universal Rear Torque Arm - 40USD (Rev4)
• Cycle Analyst Ebike Computer, CA-DPS, Vers.2.3
• A spare throttle
• Spare gears
• Sapim spokes extras
• Anderson connectors
• and the Tester {per ES post}

[ambroseliao]

Hey Ark,

I'm interested in this build thread too. I picked up a MAC 7T motor from JRH and I also have the A123 prismatic cells with OSN pack building kit. I have some misc. controllers that I could use for this so haven't decided on which one yet. Will probably try them to see.

[arkmundi]

Hey Ark,

I'm interested in this build thread too. I picked up a MAC 7T motor from JRH and I also have the A123 prismatic cells with OSN pack building kit. I have some misc. controllers that I could use for this so haven't decided on which one yet. Will probably try them to see.

So, you're in the process of building right now too? Interesting, like companions on the road so to speak. Will be interested in sharing notes on the build. When did you buy the cells from OSN? Recently? How did the cell measure up?

[ambroseliao]

Well, by right now, do you mean "at this very moment," or do you mean "I've been meaning to get started for a while now!".

[arkmundi]

Well, by right now, do you mean "at this very moment," or do you mean "I've been meaning to get started for a while now!".

Whatever, a build starts with the consideration. Maybe some people don't take sufficient time to think it through, do the hard analysis and make the right buying choices from the outset that will guarantee a successful build and happy outcome. If you have not yet finalized your decisions and so have not got started, that can be a good thing. Best going forward - feel free to post on this thread questions/insights of your own.

[ambroseliao]

Thanks Ark,

My first question for you is why are you going with the A123 prismatic cells? They are fantastic performers in that they pack a huge amount of Ah. however, they are bulky and rectangular which doesn't fit with most bike frames. I chose the MAC 7T for its small size and weight. I'm thinking of going with a LiPO battery for size and weight. I also don't want to go to 72V. I'll probably keep it at 48V max.

Also, I want to use a sine-wave controller if at all possible to keep the noise level down. Do you have any thoughts on that?

[arkmundi]

My first question for you is why are you going with the A123 prismatic cells? They are fantastic performers in that they pack a huge amount of Ah. however, they are bulky and rectangular which doesn't fit with most bike frames. I chose the MAC 7T for its small size and weight. I'm thinking of going with a LiPO battery for size and weight.

I buy cells and make my own battery pack, including casing. Casing can be more of a consideration than most people think. Doing it right means taking into consideration how its going to attach to the back, where the wiring harness connects from pack to controller, how to secure the pack to the bike frame so as to insure ride stability, robustness on the road bumps, and against stealage. A successful build will do all those things.

I'll be making a panier style casing in aluminium that sits atop a back rack. My rack is the Sunlite Gold Tec HD Tourer Rack - (Silver), and using four Online Metal Supply 3003-H14 Aluminum Sheet 1/8" x 12" x 12". The 1/8" sheets encase the 12S cell stack on the flat side, bolted together to provide needed compression, and making the pack impregnable during road crash. The bolts will also do double duty in connecting the two packs together across the back rack. It'll be more obvious when I take pictures of the final build.

I also don't want to go to 72V. I'll probably keep it at 48V max.

Yea, a big part of the picture and right for you, so go for it. You can live with the Infineon 3077 controller that Paul recommends: "50V is plenty. Our 9 fet 30A controller, which is a mid-power controller, on 50V will deliver ~1500W input power, and that is at least 1000W plus output power from the motor"

Also, I want to use a sine-wave controller if at all possible to keep the noise level down. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Get the controller that the experts recommend. In your case, Paul's. In mine, Russel's on this forum in the posts that are part of the lead in.

[arkmundi]

The Battery
The details of my OSN A123 72V battery purchase can be found on: PROMOTING OSN A123 20ah packs

[ambroseliao]

Thanks for the controller info. I will definitely try what's know to work with the MACs first.

I actually bought my A123 packs from Oatnet and Slycayer a while back. Been sitting on them ever since. I did buy the connection kit from OSN though. May I ask how much they charge for the connection kit or was it included without additional charge with your large purchase?

[arkmundi]

I did buy the connection kit from OSN though. May I ask how much they charge for the connection kit or was it included without additional charge with your large purchase?

See proforma details in link above.

[arkmundi]

I'm interested, in general, among MAC owners what one does when:: Possible issue with new Mac motor? How's the over-seas support from EM3ev in resolving technical problems? How's the manual & troubleshooting guide? Tnks.

[arkmundi]

Ah, the many gyrations rippling through ESLand.... after some email back & forth and further exploration of motors and stuff, I got flipped onto the USA Group Buy for MXUS 3000W Hub Motor $200 + Shipping. So:

• the MXUS 3000 watt direct drive gearless motor
• a 12 MOSFETs IRFB4110 Infineon Controller
• put on a highly rated full suspension MTB (looking at listings for Giant Trance or Trek Fuel series)
• and a custom battery using OSNPower A123 cells (of as yet indeterminate format), 72volt

Meaning, my Ross Mt Whitney MTB will get something else... probably the MAC 10T, a 9 fet IRFB4110 Infineon Controller, and 48 volt A123 battery. Reason being, that Paul at EM3ev did not like the higher amperage setup above and WOULD NOT provide any warranty on the setup. This, he would.

Meaning, much higher speeds - in excess of >50mph, but no gearing and so less torque, what I'm really looking for. I was inspired today by this converted full suspension Schwinn MTB!

[melodious]

Reason being, that Paul at EM3ev did not like the higher amperage setup above and WOULD NOT provide any warranty on the setup. This, he would.

I put a 40amp controller @ 50V nominal (more like 55V near top charge when it happened) and proceeded to hammer steep dirt sections as if it were a stealth bomber. Didn't take too long to break my clutch. I think pounding over 1500 watts into a clutched & geared MAC motor would be OK if you lived in flatland though. I've subsequently limited my controller to 25 amps and have no clutch problems since.

Dogman, who is a rep for Ebikekits, will soon be putting a review for a geared hubbie (similar to a MAC/BMC). The controller is propietary, more importantly, it's limited to 22amps. Most likely, it's to protect the clutch.

[arkmundi]

I put a 40amp controller @ 50V nominal (more like 55V near top charge when it happened) and proceeded to hammer steep dirt sections as if it were a stealth bomber. Didn't take too long to break my clutch. I think pounding over 1500 watts into a clutched & geared MAC motor would be OK if you lived in flatland though. I've subsequently limited my controller to 25 amps and have no clutch problems since. .

Yea, hammer 'em too hard and things break, or melt, of fall off and the whole experience has to be nice, for both buyer and seller. No warranty, especially from over-seas, is not a route I want to go.

72V with an 8T motor, is not a combination I would recommend. a 12 fet 4110 would be required, but again I can’t recommend that either, or warranty such usage. It could be fine and I would happily try it myself, but if it breaks, I wouldn’t be expecting any of my suppliers to replace parts under warranty, as frankly, I would be using them in an extreme way.

[arkmundi]

Final Parts List
http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route= ... uct_id=138

• Upgrade EM3ev vers. Mac , 500/1000W Pick'n'Mix Kit
• Controller Type option: -none-
• add-in 12 fet IRFB4110 Infineon Controller (36-72V, Motor With Hall Sensors)
• Motor Speed 255rpm loaded @36V 10T Upgrade {a second motor at 8T}
• Front/Rear Motor: Rear
• Wheel Type 26" Alex DX32 CNC
• Spoke Type Sapim Upgrade (black, 13 ga)
• Throttle Type Thumb Throttle
• Ebrakes HWBS Sensor (existing brakes)
• 7sp DNP 11T Freewheel
• DNP Extractor Tool
• Grin Tech Universal Rear Torque Arm - 40USD (Rev4)
• An extra throttle, with 3-speed switch and cruise
• Spare gear set
• Sapim spokes extras (10 count)
• Anderson connectors (45a, 5 count red/black pair)
• the Tester {per ES post}

A 48 volt A123 AMP20 battery pack using the OSNPower cells and kit - 2S2P of (24V 8S1P) for 48V, 40ah - so, in 4 sections, mounted pannier style on rear rack. Upgrade to 12 fet IRFB4110 Infineon Controller because of the MXUS motor option (the 9 fet recommended by cell_man).

Holding off on the Cycle Analyst V3 until latter, when the design & software have been finalized, then will get directly from GRIN. Order placed 21-Oct-2014 via DHL.

[footloose]

My main "go to" bike is basically same as above configuration. Battery is 48V NCM.
Love it. All around good performer over the last 18 months.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =2&t=50664

[arkmundi]

So the whole controller issues 4110 vs 3077, 12fet vs 9fet, etc...

72V with an 8T motor, is not a combination I would recommend. a 12 fet 4110 would be required, but again I can’t recommend that either, or warranty such usage. It could be fine and I would happily try it myself, but if it breaks, I wouldn’t be expecting any of my suppliers to replace parts under warranty, as frankly, I would be using them in an extreme way.

Will be using Motor/Controller with a 48V battery, per email discussion, but want the better 12FET 4110 controller for possible use with other motors at 72V.

The reason we do not offer the 12 fet 4110 is that it can deliver 3000W at 75V and that is too much for the Mac motor. We cannot warranty that kind of usage, it’s not reasonable and that is why we do not offer it as an option. The 4110 is not really an upgrade on 50V, the 3077 version has the potential to run a little more current and should run a little cooler too. If you break something whilst using it in an extreme way, please bear in mind what I said, regarding reasonable usage.

The primary idea is that I have two motors: 1> the MAC 10T from Paul at EM3ev, and 2> the MXUS 3000 watt from the USA group buy. I'd like the ability for swapping out the entire rear wheel, but nothing else - not the battery, controller, etc. Battery gets reconfigured from 48V 40ah to 96V 20ah by simple wiring trick, from parallel to series. The MAC will be better in town, for the hills. The MXUS for speed when I need it for long distance.

And oh, on the Trek Shift 3 as the better bike. Keeping the Ross a simple bike. Morphing my two builds into one.

[arkmundi]

Parts received, begin the build
First week of November and as New England loses the leaves and looses solar irradiation, becoming colder & wetter by the day, its a good time to be indoors and doing a build. So timing is perfect, as I get all the parts in. Have my new Trek Shift 3 hybrid MTN/road bike which I really like. So switching this build from the Ross Mt Whitney to the Trek. Received the MAC kit from EM3ev. And today got my Maxxis tire & downhill tubes in.

Just put the tube & tire on the Alexis DX32 rim from Paul and pumper 'er up to 60 psi (my running pressure). These are larger rims, tires & tubes stock to the Trek, which has http://www.bontrager.com/ wheels. FYI, that's a wholly owned subsidiary to Trek. Nice wheels, but wanted better and better I got. So the big question was were these 2.5" wheels going to fit where the stock was 2". At the frame joints and in the mud guard. So, like yea and right on! Figured they would and got what I expected. Not sure >2.5" would work as the tolerance is close.

After much research, asking around, reading up and what not, went with the Maxxis Hookworm tire and the thick Maxxis downhill tubes. Really nice tire & tubes and I'm sure I'll like them. They are a faster tire than on many MTN bikes, more suited to the road, which is what I'll be doing most of the time. Since I'll be carrying big ol' me and a heavy 48V 40ah A123 prismatic battery pack, I wanted a really robust wheel that will withstand the abuse they're going to be getting. I believe I made my target and happy for the moment. Road test to follow.

So my only complaint for the moment is that Paul over at EM3ev, the purveyor of the MAC kit did not supply me with any parts list or instructions. I mean the box is full of parts and seem recognizable, but with no assembly instructions, I feel a bit alone. Wrote & asked for but have yet to see a response. If you've got a set or know where I can find them, let me know & thanks.

Next up is putting the motor into the hub and putting the completed wheel onto the bike.

[arkmundi]

The final solution for Mac kit

My only reason for doing the front was ease of installation. Is there any forum member in the Northridge /L.A. area that could help me out if I got stuck on the installation of a rear hub motor? If so I would definately go with the rear. No coaster brakes. Standard front and rear friction type brakes.

Installing a rear hub motor ought to be very easy. You can watch Hyena Electric Bikes kit installation tutorial, a 13-minute video below. It's what I used to learn how to install a Mac kit. You basically just pull out the old wheel and drop the new wheel-motor-freewheel assembly in. Not much different than what you'd have to do to fix a leaky tire.....

Nice short tutorial which may be helpful or not. Still looking for assembly instructions, as the MAC comes with the motor out of the hub. Part of the kit came with a set of screws, washers and grease. Okydokey... hmm. Where do the washers go? And oh, how about that Infineon 12fet 4110 controller, which is apparently programable and has a wire with USB connector. Yea, OK, what to do with that? And the brake lever sensor for regen through the controller. And, and.....

[arkmundi]

No problemo

[arkmundi]

[999zip999]

Ark take a breath and you will get this untangled. Good luck.

[arkmundi]

Done
All right then! Finished this build today and quite pleased with how it all turned out. Here's a vid of the A123 AMP20 48V battery fully assembled and mounted with the left side exposed to show some assembly detail.

[arkmundi]

Well, one last thing and trying to figure out the hidden wire brake sensor... ?

The sensor is directional, so make sure the brake cable comes from the brake lever feeds down through the sensor and then connects to the brake caliper. The LED on the sensor should be facing the brake caliper.

... and how it works. Is it like a motion detector, so movement of the cable is detected and effectuates that control? Does it matter where on the brake cable its put?
From cell_man:

The brake cable passes through the HWBS sensor and detects when the cable is pulled. The steel wire passes through the sensor, the sheath butts up against the sensor. The HWBS is located at the brake, rather than the lever. You will see the LED come on and off as it switches. It will also switch if you quickly move the device in your hand, LED blinking on/off.

Tips on installing
I originally put the HWBS between the calipers of my rear brakes, but that didn't work so good - the motion of the cable through the sensor has enough friction to dislodge it. It'd get stuck in the "braking sensed" position, meaning the motor won't go. So I took it off. Left it off for awhile and then the inevitable happened - I braked while my finger was still on the throttle. That caused some unwanted sounds from the motor as the clutch came up against the spin of the motor - not a good thing for brakes or motor.

So I got around to re-installing the HWBS. This time I put it on the brake cable just above the calliper. A couple of tricks for those doing this:

• Needed to hack off a length of the sheathing, just the right length of the HWBS
• But the sheathing is metal wound around the cable - and its tough; so, got out my pneumatic circular saw (think Dremel on steroids) and very carefully cut it around the sheath without cutting into the cable itself
• The HWBS fits the cable exactly with no room to spare; this makes it a bit difficult to insert the cable; the ends of the cable flail apart in such a way as to make it quite difficult to insert through the HWBS
• Trick was to get out the soldering wand and solder the tip so it coheres and does not fray