Avoiding fake batteries - how?

D

Dougt

100 mW
Joined
Nov 23, 2014
Messages
48
Location
San Diego, CA (& Wash DC area)
So, I'm looking at various battery vendors trying to made sense of bulk buying some 18650 size cells. It seems everything comes from china, even the "made in Japan" or "made in Korea" batteries. Not to disparage anyone, but it seems from my reading that you are almost more likely to get a fake than the real thing. In china, they fake everything if they can make a few cents off it. Making $3-$5 profit per battery by repackaging them is huge profit. It also seems that there is no real way to recover your money if you end up buying $800 in fake batteries, other than buying them in smaller lots over time from the same vendor and testing each lot before ordering more, which would take months and likely cost $100's more in shipping.

Even if spend 50% to 150% more to buy from a north american vendor, they it seems people have had problems. 95% of people who buy them probably have no idea how to accurately test them and probably write good reviews anyway. The fakes are identical in appearance and weight. They just have an inferior battery inside. And most buyers who review seem to be buying them for e-cig/vap or flashlight use, which means they only have a very very rough qualitative opinion - the battery would have to very bad in comparison to whatever battery they last used.

Places like Alibaba and such have prices that are less than half of american vendors. Some have many great reviews, but does that really mean anything?

I am specifically thinking of getting about 160 pc of panasonic NCR18650BD batteries, although I need to do more research. (I would rather buy used leaf batteries, but sourcing is difficult, and their size makes them difficult to fit nicely - still in my planning phase). The 18650BDs have a great balance of power, energy, and cycle life, but honestly, there are a number of batteries that are half the price that would fool me into thinking they were panasonics if re-labelled and I tested them. I would have to test at various C discharges and then compare to other people's data. Zero ways to realistically test cycle life. And if I did know I bought a fake, what can I do? Sue some vague username in china? I'm stuck with the fakes and out my money.

If I buy on e-bay or amazon, I can get an slightly lower price, than a more legitimate website, but they typically don't sell in bulk, and they also have problems with fakes, though you are somewhat protected. I really don't know if measuring a discharge curve is proof enough to paypal or whatever to recover your money.

SO, sorry for the long post. WHAT do people here do to ensure they get what they pay for without paying double?

BTW, I would rather make my own packs (have spot welder and such) so that they are exactly the spec and shape I want.
 
ricklearned said:
I used a reputable vendor like Paul at em3ev.com. I bought a bms from him.
He sells packs and parts. I don't know if he sells individual cells.
Click to expand...

I can check him out, but it seems most usa/canada vendors are selling for $9-$12 per cell, while the chinese vendors are selling for half that. Paying double ($700 extra) for a slightly better chance of remedy if the product ends up counterfeit seems like a heavy premium. Now the US vendors get their cells somewhere, so where? I don't think panasonic sells direct unless you want many many thousands of cells, but maybe they do, in which case I know many people with reseller permits. In fact, how do these chinese vendors get them? They don't seem big enough or legit enough to get direct from panasonic either. Anyone know?
 
Dougt said:
So, I'm looking at various battery vendors trying to made sense of bulk buying some 18650 size cells. It seems everything comes from china, even the "made in Japan" or "made in Korea" batteries. Not to disparage anyone, but it seems from my reading that you are almost more likely to get a fake than the real thing. In china, they fake everything if they can make a few cents off it. Making $3-$5 profit per battery by repackaging them is huge profit. It also seems that there is no real way to recover your money if you end up buying $800 in fake batteries, other than buying them in smaller lots over time from the same vendor and testing each lot before ordering more, which would take months and likely cost $100's more in shipping. The fakes are identical in appearance and weight. They just have an inferior battery inside.
And if I did know I bought a fake, what can I do? Sue some vague username in china? I'm stuck with the fakes and out my money.
Click to expand...

do you have any evidence of this? i have not seen any thread here where someone bot a fake cell so wondered where you got this information if you have never purchased anything before.
 
Dougt said:
So, I'm looking at various battery vendors trying to made sense of bulk buying some 18650 size cells. It seems everything comes from china, even the "made in Japan" or "made in Korea" batteries. Not to disparage anyone, but it seems from my reading that you are almost more likely to get a fake than the real thing. In china, they fake everything if they can make a few cents off it. Making $3-$5 profit per battery by repackaging them is huge profit. It also seems that there is no real way to recover your money if you end up buying $800 in fake batteries, other than buying them in smaller lots over time from the same vendor and testing each lot before ordering more, which would take months and likely cost $100's more in shipping.

Even if spend 50% to 150% more to buy from a north american vendor, they it seems people have had problems. 95% of people who buy them probably have no idea how to accurately test them and probably write good reviews anyway. The fakes are identical in appearance and weight. They just have an inferior battery inside. And most buyers who review seem to be buying them for e-cig/vap or flashlight use, which means they only have a very very rough qualitative opinion - the battery would have to very bad in comparison to whatever battery they last used.

Places like Alibaba and such have prices that are less than half of american vendors. Some have many great reviews, but does that really mean anything?

I am specifically thinking of getting about 160 pc of panasonic NCR18650BD batteries, although I need to do more research. (I would rather buy used leaf batteries, but sourcing is difficult, and their size makes them difficult to fit nicely - still in my planning phase). The 18650BDs have a great balance of power, energy, and cycle life, but honestly, there are a number of batteries that are half the price that would fool me into thinking they were panasonics if re-labelled and I tested them. I would have to test at various C discharges and then compare to other people's data. Zero ways to realistically test cycle life. And if I did know I bought a fake, what can I do? Sue some vague username in china? I'm stuck with the fakes and out my money.

If I buy on e-bay or amazon, I can get an slightly lower price, than a more legitimate website, but they typically don't sell in bulk, and they also have problems with fakes, though you are somewhat protected. I really don't know if measuring a discharge curve is proof enough to paypal or whatever to recover your money.

SO, sorry for the long post. WHAT do people here do to ensure they get what they pay for without paying double?

BTW, I would rather make my own packs (have spot welder and such) so that they are exactly the spec and shape I want.
Click to expand...

Well, many have had good success from Fasttech. Gotta wait a long time though.
I would not bother with Alibaba unless you can independently verify seller.

Where did you get your information on the BD's? Cycle Life? Performance?
 
dnmun said:
do you have any evidence of this? i have not seen any thread here where someone bot a fake cell so wondered where you got this information if you have never purchased anything before.
Click to expand...


No I haven't bought fake batteries, but there are numerous accounts of fake batteries all over the web, including this video which shows just how much effort some will go through to make a convincing fake:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOshOXcSkDA

And Alibaba reportedly has had to remove over 100 MILLION listings due to counterfeiting. So no, I only have anecdotal evidence, but lots of it. Feel free to post any statistical evidence you may have one way or the other.

The fact is that alibaba has NCR18650BD battery listings for less than $4/pc, while even heavy discounters like fastech have them for $8/pc, and most other places for $10-$18 ea. Since I'm thinking of buying 160 to 200 batteries, that adds up. And if Alibaba was legit, I'm guess everyone would buy there.
 
okashira said:
Well, many have had good success from Fasttech. Gotta wait a long time though.
I would not bother with Alibaba unless you can independently verify seller.

Where did you get your information on the BD's? Cycle Life? Performance?
Click to expand...

I don't have specific data, just what I've been able to cull reading threads here and other places on web. My understanding is that the BD's are the closest chemistry to what Tesla uses in their well qualified batteries, but is slightly different, as Tesla's have some sort of proprietary tweak. Tesla has worked a lot with vendors to make sure that cycle life isn't hammered by large temp increases (of course tesla also cools their packs).

But, I am starting to consider the -PF version (or -PD if avail), as I think that 50% more cost for 10% more capacity and double the shelf life isn't really worth it. The -BD, PF, and PD have about the same power density, which is the reason for me having to buy so many cells. And I really can live with my cells lasting only 7 years, so the PF is probably fine. Of course, my battery choice is off topic. This thread should be focused on finding good deals without high risk of getting fakes.

Regardless, I think buying direct from alibaba is too risky. It is prob worth it to buy from a chinese connected vendor like fasttech or such (other suggestions?). That seems like a good compromise, priced between alibaba and normal retail, good return polity and reputation, but slow shipping.
 
Dougt said:
okashira said:
Well, many have had good success from Fasttech. Gotta wait a long time though.
I would not bother with Alibaba unless you can independently verify seller.

Where did you get your information on the BD's? Cycle Life? Performance?
Click to expand...

I don't have specific data, just what I've been able to cull reading threads here and other places on web. My understanding is that the BD's are the closest chemistry to what Tesla uses in their well qualified batteries, but is slightly different, as Tesla's have some sort of proprietary tweak. Tesla has worked a lot with vendors to make sure that cycle life isn't hammered by large temp increases (of course tesla also cools their packs).

But, I am starting to consider the -PF version (or -PD if avail), as I think that 50% more cost for 10% more capacity and double the shelf life isn't really worth it. The -BD, PF, and PD have about the same power density, which is the reason for me having to buy so many cells. And I really can live with my cells lasting only 7 years, so the PF is probably fine. Of course, my battery choice is off topic. This thread should be focused on finding good deals without high risk of getting fakes.

Regardless, I think buying direct from alibaba is too risky. It is prob worth it to buy from a chinese connected vendor like fasttech or such (other suggestions?). That seems like a good compromise, priced between alibaba and normal retail, good return polity and reputation, but slow shipping.
Click to expand...

I suggest you check out the thread already here about the BD's.

We believe the BE is more likely the Tesla Model S cell.
 
okashira said:
I suggest you check out the thread already here about the BD's.

We believe the BE is more likely the Tesla Model S cell.
Click to expand...

Sorry got confused with the back and forth. The BE is rate about 1C, while the BD is 3C max continuous. I need 3C for my app (2C plus a buffer). Interesting since the Tesla P85 has a 310kw motor and a 85kwh battery that has 7104 cells in a 74p96s. That implies that even at full charge we have 403V at 10.3 amps to get 310kw. The ratings I've seen (not official panasonic) says the BE is 3.6a max. I would expect the current needs to be even higher due to sag under that load to hit 310kw (not to mention contoller inefficiencies, wire losses, reactive loss, etc). Is the 3.6a rating for the BE not correct?
 
Forget ali sites. They are there for china to sell rubbish to english speakers. You never win an appeal and can't leave bad feedback unless worded so they don't realise how bad it actually is. Some sellers on there don't realise this, and are simply using ali for global marketing of their back room business though. So some sellers are good, but most are just using ali as a shield. If they could really provide top stuff so cheaply they would have their own site, doing very well. We all know the little trinkets they sell are worth peanuts in china so we can get good deals. Socks, keyrings and sex toys. You can't buy gold and diamonds cheap though, they have global worth, like your cells. Cells which are a lot harder to produce than trinkets, and not destined to ever be sold as excess stock.

There is a good supplier in belgium, but I forget..
I use Hobby King Pouches as you at least know what you are getting.
 
okashira said:
.........

We believe the BE is more likely the Tesla Model S cell.
Click to expand...

As mentioned in an earlier post Tesla cells use a proprietary electrolyte so whatever you are comparing them to will be a little inacurate. Same form factor, and similar chemistry. Tesla also doesn't use the electronic button in that is in all these other cells.
 
Dougt said:
okashira said:
I suggest you check out the thread already here about the BD's.

We believe the BE is more likely the Tesla Model S cell.
Click to expand...

Sorry got confused with the back and forth. The BE is rate about 1C, while the BD is 3C max continuous. I need 3C for my app (2C plus a buffer). Interesting since the Tesla P85 has a 310kw motor and a 85kwh battery that has 7104 cells in a 74p96s. That implies that even at full charge we have 403V at 10.3 amps to get 310kw. The ratings I've seen (not official Panasonic) says the BE is 3.6a max. I would expect the current needs to be even higher due to sag under that load to hit 310kw (not to mention contoller inefficiencies, wire losses, reactive loss, etc). Is the 3.6a rating for the BE not correct?
Click to expand...

Please read the thread on the BD's
The BE's have shown better discharge performance at high amps then the BD's.
You say the BD's are rated at 3C, while the BE is 1C, would you kindly point me to a link to the Panasonic web site that shows this? :-D
(rhetorical question...)
The model S cells vent design also "look like" BE's

Oh and the P85D probably pulls >20A (~7C) from each cell under full load.
 
ricklearned said:
okashira said:
.........

We believe the BE is more likely the Tesla Model S cell.
Click to expand...

As mentioned in an earlier post Tesla cells use a proprietary electrolyte so whatever you are comparing them to will be a little inacurate. Same form factor, and similar chemistry. Tesla also doesn't use the electronic button in that is in all these other cells.
Click to expand...

Please cite your source.
Tesla may have specified a custom cell chem/design for their model S, but that wouldn't' stop Panasonic from introducing a cell based on the Model S design.
The release date of the BE cell coincides nicely with Model S production.
 
i think someone woulda said something if that deal was a ripoff if it has been up for awhile. jmho

i think tesla is gonna stick with the same or similar form factor too, because of cooling and also for reliability if they can take a single can out with a fusable link maybe. jmho

what if panasonic was legally barred from using the chemistry that Tesla develops for some fixed or even variable period of time? panasonic may see Tesla as their savior and never even consider betraying them.
 
okashira said:
ricklearned said:
okashira said:
.........

We believe the BE is more likely the Tesla Model S cell.
Click to expand...

As mentioned in an earlier post Tesla cells use a proprietary electrolyte so whatever you are comparing them to will be a little inacurate. Same form factor, and similar chemistry. Tesla also doesn't use the electronic button in that is in all these other cells.
Click to expand...

Please cite your source.
Tesla may have specified a custom cell chem/design for their model S, but that wouldn't' stop Panasonic from introducing a cell based on the Model S design.
The release date of the BE cell coincides nicely with Model S production.
Click to expand...

http://www.technologyreview.com/news/516961/how-tesla-is-driving-electric-car-innovation/
Plus some talks by JB Straubel and a professor at a Canadian University that has done research on Lithium battery electrolytes. You posted a link to that Waterloo University Video in another thread. (Updated11/30 to cite that universty video)
Yes it is possible that Panasonic could introduce a similar cell. But as far as I know they are production constrained in their ability to supply Tesla with cells. So why would they risk offending their biggest customer?
 
that lecture by JB Strausel is really good, there are several in the MIT on the west coast series. there was a section at the end of the lecture where he was answering questions and he talked kinda obliquely about his ideas about the future form factors.

panasonic is the major partner in the giga plant and now tesla has announced joint development with BMW too.
does anyone know how much the laws in california will increase the requirements for all of the manufacturers to increase EV sales.

so Tesla/Panasonic could be the major supplier, and then of battery pack design too maybe. capitalize on the people they have brought together for the giga plant.
 
ricklearned said:
http://www.technologyreview.com/news/516961/how-tesla-is-driving-electric-car-innovation/
Plus some talks by JB Straubel and a professor at a Canadian University that has done research on Lithium battery electrolytes. I don't have specific citations but a reading of posts on the Tesla Motors Cluub Forum would give you some useful intel about the liklihood of similar cells on the market.
Yes it is possible that Panasonic could introduce a similar cell. But as far as I know they are production constrained in their ability to supply Tesla with cells. So why would they risk offending their biggest customer?
Click to expand...

I don't dispute that Panasonic made a special cell for Tesla.
But I do belive that panasonic would continue to make the cell and sell the same version for other applications (grid storage, e-bikes, etc...)
They also need a place to sell the Tesla rejects that are still "good enough" for other uses.
I'm not sure why you might think Panny selling the same cell for other applications would offend Tesla. That is not in their vision to restrict the market like that.

I have BD's and BE's on order for testing. I am trying to get my hands on a Tesla battery pack too for tear-down and more testing... ;)
 
SO, sorry for the long post. WHAT do people here do to ensure they get what they pay for without paying double?
Click to expand...
I used the so called "RUSTA-test". Order a small batch, the cheapest you can found in EU (or the USA). Then test that batch. If that batch pass the test, order a bigger batch again. If not, order the next (sorted by price) and test that.
I've been lucky twice with http://www.akkuteile.de/
I assume they are real as the 26 pcs of their NCR18650pf cells gave me 18 km+ of range with no pedalling, and 39 pcs of their NCR18650pf cells gave me 30 km+ range.
 
okashira said:
.....
I don't dispute that Panasonic made a special cell for Tesla.
But I do belive that panasonic would continue to make the cell and sell the same version for other applications (grid storage, e-bikes, etc...)
They also need a place to sell the Tesla rejects that are still "good enough" for other uses.
I'm not sure why you might think Panny selling the same cell for other applications would offend Tesla. That is not in their vision to restrict the market like that.

I have BD's and BE's on order for testing. I am trying to get my hands on a Tesla battery pack too for tear-down and more testing... ;)
Click to expand...

I hadn't thought about the need to sell rejects or inferior cells. You may be right about that aspect. Those cells would not have the pcb over current protection that other non Tesla cells had. However the fact that they dont meet the Tesla spec does imply that they are similar but not the same. I may be splitting hairs here.

As I mentioned earlier Tesla is supply constrained because Panasonic can't produce enough of those cells to satisfy the demand for Model S' s. Hence the need for the giga factory.
This discussion is drifting away from th OP intent. Perhaps a better place would be here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=54831

I often post from my phone and because of the small screen, may have also been confusing these threads.
 
yes. iv dealt with supower. got 220 genuine samsung 20r from them. been running for nearly a year, definately the real deal.

my friend willow just got 640 cells from evva. samsung 25r. also look to be the goods, great price, i think $4.80 per cell or something.
evva is also a trusted seller used and recommended by others here in e.s.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=57291&start=375#p976595
 
Dougt said:
So, I'm looking at various battery vendors trying to made sense of bulk buying some 18650 size cells....
... Places like Alibaba and such have prices that are less than half of american vendors. Some have many great reviews, but does that really mean anything?
Click to expand...
Alibaba is the Amazon of the East. Yea, reviews do mean something, as much as they do on Amazon. When making a purchasing decision, reviews can be one source of information, among others.
I am specifically thinking of getting about 160 pc of panasonic NCR18650BD batteries, although I need to do more research.
Click to expand...
You can get those from OSNPower, with this link. You can see my recent experience for an A123 AMP20 48V battery set of cells at PROMOTING OSN A123 20ah packs
(I would rather buy used leaf batteries, but sourcing is difficult, and their size makes them difficult to fit nicely - still in my planning phase). The 18650BDs have a great balance of power, energy, and cycle life, but honestly, there are a number of batteries that are half the price that would fool me into thinking they were panasonics if re-labelled and I tested them.
Click to expand...
Attempt to buy new, unused cells from China via an intermediary like OSNPower - its a good strategy to get great cells at a good price.
I would have to test at various C discharges and then compare to other people's data. Zero ways to realistically test cycle life. And if I did know I bought a fake, what can I do? Sue some vague username in china? I'm stuck with the fakes and out my money.
Click to expand...
The manufacturer's data specification sheet, from a reputable manufacturer like A123, Panasonic, Samsung and other brand names is the best guarantee of quality, of what you're getting. Voltage characteristics, C-rates, cycle-life are all specified. You can avoid counterfeit by sourcing them through OSNPower and a few other vendors vetted here at endless-sphere.
If I buy on e-bay or amazon, I can get an slightly lower price, than a more legitimate website, but they typically don't sell in bulk, and they also have problems with fakes, though you are somewhat protected. I really don't know if measuring a discharge curve is proof enough to paypal or whatever to recover your money.
Click to expand...
eBay is often a good source, and PayPal does have its buyer protections, that do work if invoked.
SO, sorry for the long post. WHAT do people here do to ensure they get what they pay for without paying double? BTW, I would rather make my own packs (have spot welder and such) so that they are exactly the spec and shape I want.
Click to expand...
OSNPower has a tab welding service for a few more pennies per cell. The its a matter of configuring the cells for a pack and then soldering the tabs, a safe & practical DIY approach. Best.
 
arkmundi said:
Dougt said:
So, I'm looking at various battery vendors trying to made sense of bulk buying some 18650 size cells....
... Places like Alibaba and such have prices that are less than half of american vendors. Some have many great reviews, but does that really mean anything?
Click to expand...
Alibaba is the Amazon of the East. Yea, reviews do mean something, as much as they do on Amazon. When making a purchasing decision, reviews can be one source of information, among others.
I am specifically thinking of getting about 160 pc of panasonic NCR18650BD batteries, although I need to do more research.
Click to expand...
You can get those from OSNPower, with this link. You can see my recent experience for an A123 AMP20 48V battery set of cells at PROMOTING OSN A123 20ah packs
(I would rather buy used leaf batteries, but sourcing is difficult, and their size makes them difficult to fit nicely - still in my planning phase). The 18650BDs have a great balance of power, energy, and cycle life, but honestly, there are a number of batteries that are half the price that would fool me into thinking they were panasonics if re-labelled and I tested them.
Click to expand...
Attempt to buy new, unused cells from China via an intermediary like OSNPower - its a good strategy to get great cells at a good price.
I would have to test at various C discharges and then compare to other people's data. Zero ways to realistically test cycle life. And if I did know I bought a fake, what can I do? Sue some vague username in china? I'm stuck with the fakes and out my money.
Click to expand...
The manufacturer's data specification sheet, from a reputable manufacturer like A123, Panasonic, Samsung and other brand names is the best guarantee of quality, of what you're getting. Voltage characteristics, C-rates, cycle-life are all specified. You can avoid counterfeit by sourcing them through OSNPower and a few other vendors vetted here at endless-sphere.
If I buy on e-bay or amazon, I can get an slightly lower price, than a more legitimate website, but they typically don't sell in bulk, and they also have problems with fakes, though you are somewhat protected. I really don't know if measuring a discharge curve is proof enough to paypal or whatever to recover your money.
Click to expand...
eBay is often a good source, and PayPal does have its buyer protections, that do work if invoked.
SO, sorry for the long post. WHAT do people here do to ensure they get what they pay for without paying double? BTW, I would rather make my own packs (have spot welder and such) so that they are exactly the spec and shape I want.
Click to expand...
OSNPower has a tab welding service for a few more pennies per cell. The its a matter of configuring the cells for a pack and then soldering the tabs, a safe & practical DIY approach. Best.
Click to expand...

Man the OSNpower looks kind of shady. And I didn't see any BD's or BE's.
They only had like 100 different options for NCR18650A's.
And only Western Union or Wire. Lol..
 
okashira said:
Man the OSNpower looks kind of shady. And I didn't see any BD's or BE's.
They only had like 100 different options for NCR18650A's.
And only Western Union or Wire. Lol..
Click to expand...
There are a lot of ESer's who have dealt with OSNPower, including myself, and my experience was fully reported in the suggested thread. So don't know why you'd say they look kind of shady. What exactly is your experience? They except PayPal on orders of less than $1000. But they deal with a lot of people worldwide and many orders valued greater than a $1000, so have set monetary policy that serves their business best. Yes, lot's of options, lots of different batteries, including my choice - the A123 AMP20s and 26650's. If you've got some specific grievance with OSNPower based on your direct experience, then post it. Otherwise STFU.
 
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