KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

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mwkeefer   10 MW

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by mwkeefer » Jan 03 2015 3:29pm

izeman wrote:
mwkeefer wrote:Nevermind.... I see now :)
hehe. i wish i REALLY knew what it is. it definately comes from the freewheel. but i can't say if it's the planet gears or the sun gear causing the noise.
Honestly it sounds like a bearing or bent axle but I see you've tested for this already... Perhaps run it noisy for a while which is obviously some rubbing action based on the sound of it... then just use an IR thermometer to detect the hottest spots and look there, the friction will raise the temperature compared to surrounding areas (hopefully).

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by izeman » Jan 03 2015 3:47pm

mwkeefer wrote:
izeman wrote:
mwkeefer wrote:Nevermind.... I see now :)
hehe. i wish i REALLY knew what it is. it definately comes from the freewheel. but i can't say if it's the planet gears or the sun gear causing the noise.
Honestly it sounds like a bearing or bent axle but I see you've tested for this already... Perhaps run it noisy for a while which is obviously some rubbing action based on the sound of it... then just use an IR thermometer to detect the hottest spots and look there, the friction will raise the temperature compared to surrounding areas (hopefully).

-Mike
i guess you're speaking about the video you replied to. this is quite old and obsolete now. the videos i posted today are up2date, and i must say that the motor now sounds quite quiet?!

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by rodgah » Jan 03 2015 5:28pm

can you run it without the planet gears? to me it sounds like the spider and the sun gear aren't aligned and the planets are binding and releasing
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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by izeman » Jan 04 2015 5:01am

rodgah wrote:can you run it without the planet gears? to me it sounds like the spider and the sun gear aren't aligned and the planets are binding and releasing
w/o the planet gears it runs more or less noiseless. just the high pitched noise of the motor itself. the manufacturing tolerances of those motors are quite high. the motor rotor is self (the yellow bell) is quite out of center and vibrates quite a lot. but this is with all three motors. it goes up and down about 0.5-1mm at the outer circumference. the sun gear looks to run centered, but i don't have the tools to check it.
the main goal for the new heat bridge was to avoid alignement issues which will cause what you describe. so right now i'm quite sure the the motor itself is centered. i can only imagine that there are tolerances for the freewheel and the gears that make it bind.

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by madin88 » Jan 04 2015 5:59am

thats a strange noise :shock: it sounds like there is something wrong with the teeth that brakes down the motor very short.
can you feel something if you twist it by hand?
could it be that there is small difference in teeth shape between new and old clutch / motors?

the tolerances are indeed quite high on those MACs. BMC or eZee are known to be fabricated more precisely but the price is twice as high. however, power and efficinecy should be equal.
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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by izeman » Jan 04 2015 6:23am

i'm confused - what noise are you guys now talking about? i added two videos yesterday. one with the wrong freewheel making noise, the other one with the correct freewheel/gears being silent. and mwmkeefer commented on a half year old video which is obsolete already as the heat bridge has changed a lot, eliminating one major issue.
so it's not clear to me if you are commenting on the OLD problem or the NEW silent motor, and you want to tell me that this NEW one is still too loud. :cry:

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by izeman » Jan 04 2015 6:25am

btw: no load current with the 10t silent motor is VERY low. it's around 1.7A now. so much better than with the "old" conversion.

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by madin88 » Jan 04 2015 7:10am

I at least was talking about the first vid from here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 50#p989753

1,7A looks good. is that an "upgraded" MAC with thinner stator lams?
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91144&start=50#p1377787
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izeman   10 GW

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by izeman » Jan 04 2015 8:18am

Ah ok. Yes this motor sounds really bad. But the second one seems ok. What do you think? Well it's the same motor. Only the freewheel is different.
Unfortunately this is the old motor. :(

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by crossbreak » Jan 04 2015 8:35am

there is quite some difference between the old and the new one. not only visible from the graphs (justin has them both in his simulator at ebikes.ca right now)

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by izeman » Jan 04 2015 12:49pm

I was talking about the difference between my two modifications. Not about the difference between the new and the old motor. I know that the new one has lower eddy loss. But that's not enough advantage to throw away the three motors I have and buy a new one. ;)

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by madin88 » Jan 04 2015 3:37pm

what about copper fill and other things? On the simulator the new motors are much more efficient under load..
- 10kW belt drive with Neumotor 8057: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=91144&start=50#p1377787
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- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by crossbreak » Jan 04 2015 3:47pm

from the pics i saw from the old 10T motors, i can state that there is no difference to the new ones in terms of copper fill. I did open a 10T for changing the temp probe some months ago and compared to pics i found in the forum since i was couroius too.

guess it's simply more efficient because it's a bigger motor with lower Ri for the same Kv. the thinner lams add up to this

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by izeman » Jan 04 2015 5:34pm

If the built quality was any better for the new Macs I would buy one, but I guess they were made the same.

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by rodgah » Jan 04 2015 6:44pm

izeman wrote:
rodgah wrote:can you run it without the planet gears? to me it sounds like the spider and the sun gear aren't aligned and the planets are binding and releasing
w/o the planet gears it runs more or less noiseless. just the high pitched noise of the motor itself. the manufacturing tolerances of those motors are quite high. the motor rotor is self (the yellow bell) is quite out of center and vibrates quite a lot. but this is with all three motors. it goes up and down about 0.5-1mm at the outer circumference. the sun gear looks to run centered, but i don't have the tools to check it.
the main goal for the new heat bridge was to avoid alignement issues which will cause what you describe. so right now i'm quite sure the the motor itself is centered. i can only imagine that there are tolerances for the freewheel and the gears that make it bind.
what i picture in my head is the planets slowly climbing out of the ring gear.....in that video outward towards the camera, like a corkscrew effect. Does it bind when you turn the cluster by hand? You could try heavily greasing them in order to maybe see if this is whats happening, they should realign earlier and quieter. Can you flip the planets over on the spider or are they non reversible? it is either that or there is a manufacturing difference in diameter or tooth profile somewhere.
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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by crossbreak » Jan 04 2015 7:01pm

hard to tell. some clutch doesn't like some rotor? then: which one does like which one? you can combine till you got the best number that works flawlessly.

I mean: Now that you have 3 motors, you can just keep all of it and test every one of the 5 clutches in every one of the 3 motors, a total of 15 tests. At least then it should get more clear what causes the noise. Bad thing is that you need two additional redesigned heatbridges then to explude misalgnment

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by izeman » Feb 14 2016 7:49am

over the winter season i've done some work. i tried to modify the new MAC motor, which was not very successfull, so i took on of the old MAC and tried to refine them.
there was again some strange klonk, klonk noise coming from the freewheel/clutch. but now i could cleary identify the cause. it is the YOKE! it's the magnet bowl. i have several of them and let the motors run w/o clutch to see which of those had the smallest wobble. but the one which was almost running true seems to have some offset of the sun gear which makes the freewheel make that noise.
after using one of the wobbly yokes it runs fine now.

i also tried programming the kelly controller which was not very successfull. it conked out all the time, and it still has this strange behaviour of revving up the motor when letting go the throttle @wot. i wished the motor was running that fast all the time.

so i tried changing PID settings a lot but it really didn't get much better. fany suggested setting phase/battery to 100/80%. this is MUCH too high, pushing WAY to much current into the little motor making the controller switch off or giving 3/2 error (over current). so i lowered phase/current to 50/50 which gives me 100A phase max and around 50A battery max. being a 120A controller those settings don't make sense to me - calculation wise, but the phase/battery amps are measured, and it trust those values.

good news is, that the oscillation of max speed has gone away and it runs stable at full speed now (not as fast as the trapezoid kelly/infineon, but still ok. no load speed in 9th gear is 57km/h and guess what: loaded speed is exactly the same. i was hoping for 70km/h top speed, but i already use the 23t gear in front, and that's the biggest one you can buy. i could use a 6T motor, but it's only .5mm lams and maybe too much eddy current.

i will post the kelly screenshots here for (my) reference so i can find them again :)
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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by crossbreak » Feb 18 2016 8:11pm

Nice that you finally got it to full rpm in the end. I'll try to confirm those results. So it's fine for the coming season as is? Remember your FOC controller should be ~10% lower max rpm as it does sine wave.

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by izeman » Feb 19 2016 2:57am

Hmmmm. Not really full rpm. But the oscillating rpm at top speed has gone away. The top rpm is still limited to 2krpm. No matter what i do. I will try the controller with new firmware soon (i ordered one 2 weeks ago).

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by izeman » Mar 06 2016 9:15am

as per request i made some pictures as the bike looks like now.
during winter season i changed, added a few things:

.) made a new motor axle 42crmo4 steel. now with a correct thread and with a very precise diameter for the bearings
.) i added some stainless steel washers and discs to crossbreak's freewheel adapter as alloy was too soft
.) added an emergency bridge wire with xt60 connector (adds as theft protection, drive away protection as well)
.) i made a new inrush limiter connected to a waterproof black alluminium push button switch located in the frame
.) removed the two single led lamps and added a 7 led front lamp with tuned led driver to output real 22w (3w per led) giving approximately real 2500lm.

here are the newest pictures (those can be found in high res, together with all the other pictures in low-res) here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/7ybhvqk0yh0l ... q_APa?dl=0
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izeman   10 GW

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by izeman » Mar 06 2016 10:20am

rodgah wrote:can you run it without the planet gears? to me it sounds like the spider and the sun gear aren't aligned and the planets are binding and releasing
yesterday while i installed the new axle i just installed the freewheel with the planet gears and inserted it into the open case. so it was just the case with the side cover and the freewheel. turning the axle (and the freewheel obviously) i heard that clonk clonk noise. and it was the plantet gears binding. no idea how and why, but turning the axle backwards when it bound made the planets stuck and i could turn the axle because of the freewheel. so the binding was quite strong.
i then used a different freewheel and the binding was gone. problem solved. :)

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by r3volved » Mar 06 2016 11:53am

Same kind of freewheel or swapped out for a whole different manufacturer/model?

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izeman   10 GW

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by izeman » Mar 06 2016 12:00pm

r3volved wrote:Same kind of freewheel or swapped out for a whole different manufacturer/model?
i have freewheels from 3 different MACs, and i ordered 2 spares from paul. so i have new and old ones. i have white, blue, green and grey planet gears. this gives a lot of combinations.
but it seems that one of the "new type" freewheels is somehow causing the issue. the other one i have, which looks identical has no problems at all.

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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by izeman » Jul 05 2016 6:19am

so the story continues. i ride the bike at 2.5kW peak which was too much for the last motor freewheel i had. i swapped it and didn't have a problem still.
my only issue i have is, that heat transport from the stator to the heat sink outside is not optimal. there are too many air gaps and i'd like to have parts reduced. so the plan is to make a whole new side cover for the motor with bearing installed, and much improved heat dissipation.
i also ordered a new stator from paul em3ev.com with 0.35mm lams which should reduce heat waste as well.
the biggest issue i have to solve first is how to mount the 170mm alu disc on my lathe which can handle 180mm, but i can't clamp it, so i need to build an adaptor first.

the story begins, stay tuned:
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Re: KONA Entourage Build Thread - middrive (pic heavy)

Post by izeman » Jul 18 2016 2:20pm

everyone who has ever had a mac open may find these pictures some how familiar. but not completely.
my plan was to make one big side cover where the stator directly connects to. taking off a lot of material took a very long time, as my lathe is not really made for 170mm diameter parts. it's good for all below 100mm, but 170mm was really it's limit. so i had to go very slowly and the motor was heating up a lot, so it had too cool down several times.

the stator is a very tight fit, and the fit between the motor case and the side cover is very tight as well.
now i need to cut the openings for the bearings and then the cover should be done. a new axle is mandatory as well.

here are some pics - in the last picture the stator is not fully set down, as it's very hard to remove. it's just for illustration.
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