The Haleakala Volcano test
- Thread starter EbikeMaui
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EbikeMaui
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What all of you overlook is If I could make a cheap high performance system for a 45 lb Kmart bike with off the shelf parts, that nothing has failed in 20,000 miles of running on the Valley Isle for 5 years... A manufacture such as Honda or Yamaha could do better if there was a need.You guys are stuck with what is easy to slap together from what ebike parts you know of and are EASILY available with many quality and efficieency issues.Sure some hub motors do the job you like them too because you have no choice otherwise. Untill some investor thinks manufacturing ebikes is a profitable business to make a few thousand high performance to get better performance and EFFICIENCY in a LIGHT WEIGHT Ebike/Moped that is BEYOND what YOU can BUY don't get so chapped what is possable to make in your garage without the use of a cheap Chineese hubmotor lolTylerDurden said:
You guys can open sorce all you want but you need the focus... The ideas are out there to make much better ebike systems. Find the right motor/controller and your 90% there. Asuming you have a motor sysyem that stays protected and it is the right size for most bicycle adaptations.What kind of battery framework on a complete ebike would be best for most people ? Open soruce it if you can.I have already posted most of the options in the last 7 years.
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TylerDurden
100 GW
In seven years, no angel has come forward to back production of the mystery-bike? Where is the VC?
I have not been around for seven years. In fact, I just got here.
So.
Let's see...
There is no specific outline of components to make MysteryBike.
So, nobody can build one like it and see if it can be reproduced.
It might actually be a good concept.
But nobody will ever know.
There are no DIY plans.
There are nice videos of HI.
I enjoy watching them.
But my investment capital goes to the people who can demonstrate transparency.
8)
I have not been around for seven years. In fact, I just got here.
So.
Let's see...
There is no specific outline of components to make MysteryBike.
So, nobody can build one like it and see if it can be reproduced.
It might actually be a good concept.
But nobody will ever know.
There are no DIY plans.
There are nice videos of HI.
I enjoy watching them.
But my investment capital goes to the people who can demonstrate transparency.
8)
I'm going to fall asleep here
China punt out usable hub motors for 40 dollars a pop, your system using expensive geared hubs will never ever take off, its just not practical Randy or affordable and again for some reason you still seem to think people want to do 40 miles on an e-bike.
Do a straw poll they dont! thats why most of the current hub motor and geared assists like mine would perform perfectly well using the same lipo batteries that you are using, run your motor on 2 x 12ah lead acid batteries like most of the cheap kits do and there would be nothing between them.
I don't know why you think your motor and controller is any better than anything else? on paper it isnt and your videos prove nothing (tail winds) the laws of physics apply here Randy your motor and controller still require the same amount of power as my USPD to go the same speed.
If anyone was going to run a rental business they would choose a motor with only one moving part maybe? like a brushless hub motor that costs only 40 dollars to replace, or would they go for a huge sprocket and motor and an expensive 200 dollar geared hub that was never designed to shift super fat tourists at 25mph? with a finger snapping chain exposed for people to get their hula skirts tangled in.
Randy your bike is a one off, there is a very good reason for that go figure!
Knoxie
China punt out usable hub motors for 40 dollars a pop, your system using expensive geared hubs will never ever take off, its just not practical Randy or affordable and again for some reason you still seem to think people want to do 40 miles on an e-bike.
Do a straw poll they dont! thats why most of the current hub motor and geared assists like mine would perform perfectly well using the same lipo batteries that you are using, run your motor on 2 x 12ah lead acid batteries like most of the cheap kits do and there would be nothing between them.
I don't know why you think your motor and controller is any better than anything else? on paper it isnt and your videos prove nothing (tail winds) the laws of physics apply here Randy your motor and controller still require the same amount of power as my USPD to go the same speed.
If anyone was going to run a rental business they would choose a motor with only one moving part maybe? like a brushless hub motor that costs only 40 dollars to replace, or would they go for a huge sprocket and motor and an expensive 200 dollar geared hub that was never designed to shift super fat tourists at 25mph? with a finger snapping chain exposed for people to get their hula skirts tangled in.
Randy your bike is a one off, there is a very good reason for that go figure!
Knoxie
EbikeMaui
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To do any practial tours or bike rentals in Hawaii I repeat.. No ebikes of kits available will cut it without many overheating and under power problems. Try this hill with a hub motor with four 40 lb Hawker SLAs on a Huffy lol. This same motor climbed this hill 100s of times on 60 mile trips in the country with this hill on the way.With 160 lbs of batteries it showed me it would carry a 250 lb tourist anywhere on the island RELIBABLY (when reliable lithiums are available provided a strong frame was used along with a motor/controller that weighed 5 lbs could take the punishment.The same motor would provide any 50 cc gas moped with electric power that would equal or stronger than the gas alternative for 80 miles of range.With no vision ebikes will perrish!knoxie said:
http://tinyurl.com/yj4jv6
Now that moped power and speeds are achived using the 3 speed hub to see what ratios work best for each load (weight, wind and hills)and voltage without changing sprockets l Try it with 72 volts of light weight 12ah lithium and you only get the same performance as 12ah SLAs at 72 volts. Except for a little faster take offs and slightly better efficiency figures going fast in hilly country using lithiums because of the weight difference . Either way you can expect 6 good amphours for the best use of both types of batteries rated at 12 ah. 6 amp hours at 36 to 72 volts should get a efficient ebike 20 miles on a round trip without pedaling at 15 to 20 mph or more depending on voltage used not so much contitions on round trips..
If you may not have noticed .. for a legal 20 mph HILL CLIMBING Ebike or Moped the motors I use only require 1 speed to be efficient through out the intire speed range in one gear.Even to 40 mph if needed.It turns out that from the relibablity of the 3 speed hub and low price considering outher sprocket/wheel attachment options (any 1 speed freehub at half the price for a good one). Too bad a hub motor has NO gearing options without replacing the whole wheel.
http://community-2.webtv.net/SolarCraft/EVMOTORS/
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EbikeMaui
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You will learn shortly that there are just a few Americans that buy mopeds or ebikes.(all the ebikers in the US are here lol)Otherwise Honda would be selling good ones here or making e-mopeds that were decent.. Name any complete QUALITY Ebike and the price and see how long they will exist in the US.TylerDurden said:
Randy
The problem is if you are putting your bike up as a model for possible rental use then amongst other things the bikes would have to be road legal as they would essentially be electric mopeds. To take 250lb tourists up these grades your going to be firmly in to 1400-2KW territory. You only weigh 150lbs by your own admission, id like to see how long the pawls on those expensive geared hubs last with 250lbs of not so careful on the throttle tourist.
There are cheap proper scooters coming out of China using silicon batteries that would be Ideal for a fume free rental system, that are already road legal have lights, indicators disc brakes etc etc.
Just because you say there are no repeat no motors that can cut the mustard means nothing? go to ebikes.ca and look at the simulator, also the little geared Puma would easily pull those grades, so would a geared heinzmann so would my uspd, there are plenty of kits you can get and have been able to get for years and years that will do this.
The 2 speed xlyte motor as used in the dirt monkey is also a great hill climber and could be made cheaply by the thousands.
Anyway like I said Randy your bike is a good concept and you have done some great work you just need to realize that there are many alternatives out there that easily match what you have done, they are simpler, cheaper to make and they are available now.
Knoxie
The problem is if you are putting your bike up as a model for possible rental use then amongst other things the bikes would have to be road legal as they would essentially be electric mopeds. To take 250lb tourists up these grades your going to be firmly in to 1400-2KW territory. You only weigh 150lbs by your own admission, id like to see how long the pawls on those expensive geared hubs last with 250lbs of not so careful on the throttle tourist.
There are cheap proper scooters coming out of China using silicon batteries that would be Ideal for a fume free rental system, that are already road legal have lights, indicators disc brakes etc etc.
Just because you say there are no repeat no motors that can cut the mustard means nothing? go to ebikes.ca and look at the simulator, also the little geared Puma would easily pull those grades, so would a geared heinzmann so would my uspd, there are plenty of kits you can get and have been able to get for years and years that will do this.
The 2 speed xlyte motor as used in the dirt monkey is also a great hill climber and could be made cheaply by the thousands.
Anyway like I said Randy your bike is a good concept and you have done some great work you just need to realize that there are many alternatives out there that easily match what you have done, they are simpler, cheaper to make and they are available now.
Knoxie
EbikeMaui said:
I don't know what happened, hence the question.
You see that little thing at the end of the word 'challenge', that denotes an interogative.
Are you saying they weaseled (Weakleyed?) out? You're implying they are out of business. That's news to me. Can you or anyone fill me in on this? And prefer my question not be answered with a question, it doesn't answer anything, just raises more questions. :lol:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/power-assist/message/60645
Re: Optibike vs. Randy's e-bike.... Pike's Peak...
Alright kids. I personally rode up Pikes Peak, and rode down for that
matter. And you people have no idea what it is like to ride uphill for
that long. How about this: You get out here to Colorado and beat me
up Pikes Peak and I will pay for your plane ticket and give you $5000.
If you think your E-bike can do it than put up or shut up.
Craig Weakley
TylerDurden
100 GW
EbikeMaui said:
Price has always been the bottleneck.
We are only now seeing mass production of safe battery chemistry with pricing that won't scare off the public.
The company that makes the energy scaleable will see greater success:
Basic bike comes with a starter-pack at a low price.
Additional packs just snap-on to the starter pack for more speed or range (user selectable).
No wiring, jumpers, etc. Just like your drill, snap on a pack and go. Snap on more packs and go faster/farther.
I doubt we will see Kokam be the leader. Look for Moli and a123. They already know how to package for the consumer.
8)
Dots wots I tots 
EbikeMaui
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The bottom line is that there are no proven Ebikes or mopeds that will constantly take the hills of Hawaii and still have any decent range of 30 to 60 miles with a tourist using them.I choose to use 26" wheels with a single ratio motor for tthis application.The mopeds on the market are too heavy with too little power and at too high of a price and no ebike that I know of has a good efficiency at 1000 watts for lithium using a 26" wheel at 20 mph and able to make it up this hill in my video that would be in the route of a tour.If a ebike or moped as such was available where is this machine? show me its performance going up a 1/2 mile long 30% grade hill. I would much rather buy them than make my own.lets see any hub motor in a 26" wheel carry this bike (with 160 lbs of batteries or a 300 lb tourist using lithium batteries) up the same hill as my 5 lb motor and ebike has 100s of times.Lowell said:
http://tinyurl.com/yj4jv6
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EbikeMaui said:
No, there's a line below yours.
You're evading the question.
If you are so confident of your machines physical prowess & superior capability then that $5000 is like finding a bag of money in the street. There's no jeopardy attached. Fly in, thrown down the gauntlet & 1.5 hours later you're five grand richer doing a turkey trot on top of Pikes Peak, not even out the cost of a plane ticket.
Optibike claims to have climbed 7,200 feet in 19 miles (can that be right?) in one hour thirty minutes & still had little over half of the battery capacity left, that's 40 miles range. His mountain's biggern' yours, he's callin you out into the street. You gonna take that?
I have to believe that for the 8 grand the Optibike costs, it damn well better be able to back up what they claim. They're taking all the risk betting the farm because if you beat him they won't be able sell another Optibike.
Now if they win, well, you can say sure it's an 8k$ bike vs a 1k$ bike. However the high price has nothing to do it's performance capability & is a reflection of some major shortcoming on the production side, not the technical side. There's nothing to the Optibike that mass production couldn't bring the cost down to 1K$ sans battery.
So regardless of it's price, the technical achievement of making that climb with a 600W motor (if true) is an impressive accomplishment. You're saying that the bottom line is that there is no ebike available to buy that can do what yours does; where's the video you say. Well the Optibike is for sale right now & they have a video. It meets all your range & power requirements so stop claiming:
EbikeMaui said:
Optibike has proven the capability of their ebike to at least the same extent that you have. Frankly both Randybike and Optibike strike me as having a tinge of a snake-oil element to them which is probably why both parties are puck-shy to square off.
EbikeMaui
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In the PowerAssist forum I posted A reply to Craig to give his requirements for the match.I suggested that we both use the same battery pack and NOT have ANY pedaling so we can see the motor systems performance.Craig from Optibike did NOT answer back.Others in the forum also excepted Craigs offer.NO response!
In Hawaii the limit of power for a E-bike WAS 1499 watts of power to the road. A bicycle with dot rims, brakes, and frame sholud have no reason not to be a legal bicycle or moped.with the addition of lights.Except for politics! Since all ebikes are now ilegal I may as well work on the laws on ebikes to just revert back to the same motorized bicycle law that WAS on the books a few years ago when my ebikes were legaly registerd.When these are classified as mopeds there are too many restrictions!
For either a ebike, Moped or Motorcycle, There ARE choices of motors and controllers shch as these that operate close to 92% efficiency through out a range of 200 to 2000 watts for a 5 lb motor,or to 5000 watts constantly with a 10,000 watt peek with a motor the size of a ebike hubmotor.
If any one wanted one these are on ebay from time to time for $200. a motor. Yet none on any production e-vehicle ???
In Hawaii the limit of power for a E-bike WAS 1499 watts of power to the road. A bicycle with dot rims, brakes, and frame sholud have no reason not to be a legal bicycle or moped.with the addition of lights.Except for politics! Since all ebikes are now ilegal I may as well work on the laws on ebikes to just revert back to the same motorized bicycle law that WAS on the books a few years ago when my ebikes were legaly registerd.When these are classified as mopeds there are too many restrictions!
For either a ebike, Moped or Motorcycle, There ARE choices of motors and controllers shch as these that operate close to 92% efficiency through out a range of 200 to 2000 watts for a 5 lb motor,or to 5000 watts constantly with a 10,000 watt peek with a motor the size of a ebike hubmotor.
If any one wanted one these are on ebay from time to time for $200. a motor. Yet none on any production e-vehicle ???
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EbikeMaui said:
This charge applies equally to you. Look in the mirror pal & complain to him.
So you don't consider the Optibike a production e-vehicle, why?
EbikeMaui
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"If any one wanted one these are on ebay from time to time for $200. a motor. Yet none on any production e-vehicle ??? "Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh said:
If you read everything you know I was talking about these kind of High performance disc motors on a higher power, more efficient product .Since there is no market or interest a to manufacture a complete Moped or Ebike that meets a varity of peoples demands there is still no ebike market for better motors or batteries. Not in any reasonable volume ( and good prices ) anyway.
The $3000. Emax would not nearly cut it in Hawaii before over heating motors and battery problems.
I think if I went to HI I'd rent a motorcycle or convertible. Crawling up mountains doesn't really sound like a great vacation, scenery or not.
Now my bike with 3500+Wh of high output lithium on it would be an interesting ride anywhere. 4000w for 50 minutes should get just about anywhere you'd want to bike to.
Now my bike with 3500+Wh of high output lithium on it would be an interesting ride anywhere. 4000w for 50 minutes should get just about anywhere you'd want to bike to.
EbikeMaui
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With a 3500 wh capacity a efficient ebike could go any where at 20 mph with a 145 mile range.People spend MILLIONS each year to be busseed up the volcano along with a bicycle to coast a bicycle down hill at 100 bucks a pop.The round trip would take less time on a ebike and cost $25 a day to rent if ebikes didn't become ilegal and if a product could make the grade.. There are many secnic and historic tour routes that a good ebike can provide transportation to that would otherwise be a long walk or uninteresting car ride IF you could even drive to them and park.Lowell said:
lemmiwinks
100 W
Lowell said:
Oh yeah. Shame they don't have the R1, still, just rev the R6 a bit harder
What Randy has consistently failed to grasp for the last few years (despite having it pointed out to him endlessly) is that his is an idea that has had it's time, and now has been overtaken. He continues to belittle the Chinese hub motors, Cyclone kits etc without ever actually trying one. I guess he doesn't want to experience first hand the fact that they are everything his bike will never be - cheap, reliable, simple and above all available.
Until then, he keeps bleating on, moving from one forum to the next as he gets moderated out of existence or simply banned altogether. Keep arguing with him if you find it entertaining by all means, but realise you'll never change his mind.
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