Bafang BBS01 350w vs Dillenger 250w front hub

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Re: Bafang BBS01 350w vs Dillenger 250w front hub

Post by Tats » Dec 03, 2014 8:50 pm

Looks like a BBS01 500w controller from em3ev might be the easiest upgrade you can make...but not as much fun as playing with the config yourself

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 28&t=65178

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Re: Bafang BBS01 350w vs Dillenger 250w front hub

Post by byebyepetrol » Dec 04, 2014 12:06 am

BBS02 Controller is only around $80US too.

Tempting.

If all it takes is a bit of re-programming of the 350w to raise the amperage though that'd be the better option.

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Re: Bafang BBS01 350w vs Dillenger 250w front hub

Post by mfj197 » Dec 04, 2014 6:44 am

byebyepetrol wrote:BBS02 Controller is only around $80US too.

Tempting.

If all it takes is a bit of re-programming of the 350w to raise the amperage though that'd be the better option.
However isn't the BBS02 controller 48v, and you're running 36v? I'd look into programming the BBS01 though (as I expect I will do) to up the PAS current to the same as throttle current, and if necessary up the max current to 18A rather than 15A.

cwah, in this thread byebyepetrol has posted weights of his bike with Dillenger hub conversion, with no conversion and with the Bafang BBS01 conversion and has directly compared the weight of the two conversions. It's useful information.

Michael

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Re: Bafang BBS01 350w vs Dillenger 250w front hub

Post by byebyepetrol » Dec 04, 2014 9:11 pm

BBS02? I meant BBS01 ;0)

Update: Duration
This looks promising so far. With the 14.5Ahr LiIon Panasonic pack the distance between charges is
a lot longer than the front hub system. It's not a valid comparison since I've upgraded the battery but I can say
I've run it for four days to/from work and I haven't charged it and it's still pulling strongly; that's around 64km
of stop-start rain/shine commuting.

I still have the 4000KM old 10.5 pack annd it's pin compatible so I'll run a test using that one to get a fairer
comparison of efficiencies.

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Re: Bafang BBS01 350w vs Dillenger 250w front hub

Post by Tats » Dec 04, 2014 11:51 pm

Have you got any indication of speed/time difference for the commute yet?

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Re: Bafang BBS01 350w vs Dillenger 250w front hub

Post by byebyepetrol » Dec 06, 2014 2:34 am

Hi Tats,
Indicated top-end on max assist is 37- 40kmh. That's on the flat, no wind assist, max. comfortable cadence so it's 3 to 5kmh faster than the hub system I reckon.
That's with a 46tooth chainring and 12tooth rear cog. I'll eventually set it up for 48x11.

Took it for an extended spin 60km round trip today and the last 30km into freshening 20-25kt headwind and it dropped
to half-capacity indicated.

80km would be doable I reckon.

The turbo button has turbo lag. It takes a moment for it to register but when it does it's big fun.

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Re: Bafang BBS01 350w vs Dillenger 250w front hub

Post by Tats » Dec 11, 2014 8:12 am

Thanks for the review, excellent work - pretty much decided I'll get a BBS02 36v 500w and when the battery goes kaput go 48v and just upgrade the controller. I'm looking for a 3-5 kmh speed boost on the flat and a little bit of economy.

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Re: Bafang BBS01 350w vs Dillenger 250w front hub

Post by Tats » Dec 17, 2014 6:34 pm

G'Day mate, Any further thoughts on the mid-drive yet? Would you call it an upgrade - and if so an upgrade of speed, climbing, range, rideability, enjoyment or anything else?
Cheers

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Re: Bafang BBS01 350w vs Dillenger 250w front hub

Post by byebyepetrol » Dec 21, 2014 8:40 pm

Slight Improvement
It's an upgrade, but not a dramatic one.

The drive system (chain/ cluster / derailleur) cops a lot more stress.
It's difficult to be disciplined to always power-off to change gears.

FYI: lube for the drivetrain
I use a wax lube as a base then a liquid on top of that and the chain is pretty quiet.
Expensive, but it works.

The handling is a big plus, much more agile than the front hub.

I reckon it'll get better once I've re-programmed for more assist down low.
As it stands, I use the throttle more on this set-up than the hub system to
compensate for the "torque bucket" down low.

Crank Yankers
The cranks loosen up far too quickly. I've tightened them 3x already.
One remedy however will be to dremel or scribe some friction tracks into the
spindle or even a mild sanding with 180 grit might do it. It needs something since
it's too smooth for a proper fit.

Top Gear
I'll pop an 11-tooth on the cluster and a 48 on the chainwheel and I should see 14% more top-end,
so 40kmh + should be a comfortable maximum [clutches helmet and crucifix].

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Re: Bafang BBS01 350w vs Dillenger 250w front hub

Post by Tats » Dec 22, 2014 12:04 am

Thanks for that. I've bit the bullet and ordered a 36v 350w myself. From what I read on the programming thread the pas is more about a comfortable cadence than a torque level. Having tried the Lyen controller on the Dillinger hub kit, the torque that kit has is surprising. I'll let you know how things feel with my controller settings when I get it. Cheers rich.

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Re: Bafang BBS01 350w vs Dillenger 250w front hub

Post by byebyepetrol » Jan 16, 2015 11:09 pm

Update: 6 weeks elapsed
The throttle lever is getting the flick to be replaced by twist grip throttle. I find the twist grip far more natural to use.
The bike has a Tubus rack to take the Ortlieb panniers.
The rack needed a slight head-scratch to install but I think I've licked it. There's no mounts on this frame so I fabricated
two extension plates for the rear axle and used surplus 10mm threaded rod with a tie-rod end to engage it with the seat post clamp.
Heat shrink to make up thickness on the rod and it seems solid.

Programming cable en-route as well as 48T chainring.

Image


Image


Image

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Re: Bafang BBS01 350w vs Dillenger 250w front hub

Post by Tats » Jan 18, 2015 4:13 am

Nice fab work! I've got the bbs01 350w installed and love it, although the Dillinger battery is a bit too saggy. The bbs01 is better for me and is a lot more economic and a lot quicker. I'll do a write up when my Ping battery arrives but for me it's the improvement was looking for.

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Re: Bafang BBS01 350w vs Dillenger 250w front hub

Post by byebyepetrol » Jan 18, 2015 6:24 am

Thanks Tats.
The ultimate test for the rack was transporting 2 curries, 2 garlic naans, a bottle of coke and a bottle of booze for dinner Fri night and it worked a treat although one curry container let go.
It wasn't pretty ;0)

FYI
I've ditched the heavy rear Schwalbe for a superlight Specialized and it's dropped 300g. I don't like heavy rolling stock.

What size Ping battery are you getting?

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Re: Bafang BBS01 350w vs Dillenger 250w front hub

Post by Tats » Jan 18, 2015 5:07 pm

Ah, Curry, so that's the secret of your speed... Going for the 36v10ah with a spare charger. On the 20km commute each way I'm using less than 3AH with the BBS - spare charger means I can leave one at work and charge there if I need to. The 10AH is also really small and will fit neatly into my Topeak MTX rack bag.

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Re: Bafang BBS01 350w vs Dillenger 250w front hub

Post by mfj197 » Jan 19, 2015 10:13 am

Tats wrote:Ah, Curry, so that's the secret of your speed... Going for the 36v10ah with a spare charger. On the 20km commute each way I'm using less than 3AH with the BBS - spare charger means I can leave one at work and charge there if I need to. The 10AH is also really small and will fit neatly into my Topeak MTX rack bag.
Is that less than 3AH for each 20km then? And at what assist level and speed - and have you modified the programming to give you full assist when pedelling? The reason I'm interested is I'm putting a BBS01 on a flat bar road bike for my own commute of 22 miles each way (35km) and am trying to work out if an 8.7Ah capacity pack would be sufficient (I'll be charging at work and at home). 8.7Ah is 10S3P and 1.5Kg which I have already, but if it needs 10S4P and 2kg I'll need to order another ten cells.

Michael

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Re: Bafang BBS01 350w vs Dillenger 250w front hub

Post by Tats » Jan 21, 2015 12:17 am

Hi Michael, at the moment I'm doing a lot of pedalling at assist 3 or 4 out of 9 with small amounts of throttle to assist on hills. I'm occasionally using 7 or 8 assist for short bursts too - but I'm protecting the battery voltage making sure I never drop below 34.5v as that's the cliff edge leading to cutouts. This way I'm about 2.5 to 3.1 ah per 20kms. This is averaging about 25 kmh. I have full throttle assist at all speeds - emax ebikes in nsw and on here supplied the kit. Awesome service too.

The issue for you I predict will be the same as for me - choosing a high C rated battery with minimal voltage sag. 8.7ah going up hill will mean you need a battery that can easily handle 2+C discharge. On the flat it will use less than 1C if you use assist level 4/5 or less. I've ordered a ping 10ah lifepo that can run continuous 2C and has an amazing flat discharge curve as I have the hills at both ends of the ride. Headway is another pretty safe option. Lipo fire risk scares me.if you are going Li-ion check the discharge curves carefully you may be ok if you limits the amps.

Hope it helps, rich

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Re: Bafang BBS01 350w vs Dillenger 250w front hub

Post by mfj197 » Jan 21, 2015 5:10 am

Rich thanks, that's good information. I'm building the battery pack from Panasonic NCR18650PF cells. These are high current 10A cells and have a very low internal resistance so low voltage sag - the thread here has ended up being mostly about these cells despite starting off about the BD cells! They are also a very safe chemistry as well.

'll be looking to use higher assist than you (as well as pedelling like you) so aiming to average maybe 35km/h for my 35km each way commute. Much slower than that and it just takes too much time and I don't get home to help put the wee kids to bed! I have the cells and will probably make it as a 10s3p pack but leave extra nickel strip in the pack so I can add more cells to make it a 10s4p if it seems like the capacity will be a bit close.

Michael

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Re: Bafang BBS01 350w vs Dillenger 250w front hub

Post by Tats » Jan 21, 2015 6:55 am

I think you'll be close Michael - running assist 6 to 8 on the flat I can maintain the average speeds you're after, however I'm using between 5 and 9 amps. If the battery gets tired or there's a headwind I think you could be at risk of being a little short on capacity at those speeds. May also be better to go with the 4p up front to reduce the depth of discharge to help the battery last more cycles. The Pana's spec/review as really good cells, be a shame if it were to shorten their life.

As a comparison here is the ping discharge curve -> https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... ve#p314471

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Re: Bafang BBS01 350w vs Dillenger 250w front hub

Post by mfj197 » Jan 21, 2015 9:50 am

Yes, I keep on coming back to whether I should order another 10 cells and wait for them to turn up before welding up the pack. I'm trying to keep the build lightweight and it should come to about 16.5 kg. Would I really notice another 500g? I think all your points are valid Rich - maybe I should just order the cells anyway.

EDIT - now done!

Michael

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Re: Bafang BBS01 350w vs Dillenger 250w front hub

Post by Tats » Jan 28, 2015 7:54 pm

First ride with the Ping 36v 10ah on the BBS01 350w from http://www.emax-ebikes.com.au

Assist level 7-9 (no throttle) and not going gangbusters: 19.26km, ave 33.17km/h, CA shows 4.7ah consumed, min 38.0v under sustained load. Ride time 2 minutes under fastest time with Dillinger 250w hub, a few strava segments top 10s. Had a good roadie sit on my wheel for about 7ks at 38-40km/h-ish enjoying the tow off the 29er. More than fast enough for the bike paths in Perth (48v 750w must be nuts) and safer than the dillinger because I can keep a gap from the less experienced wobbly roadies.

Overall impression - love it :D

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Re: Bafang BBS01 350w vs Dillenger 250w front hub

Post by byebyepetrol » Jan 30, 2015 3:19 am

Hi Tats,
Good result. Are there any more efficiencies you can make to the bike?

Ewan at emax sent me a 48t chain-ring and a programming cable; I should get them after this weekend.
Also a twist throttle arrived today from bms battery. Item was $2.99, postage was $20 ;0)

Coincidentally on Australia day I had a Jayco team rider on my six drafting for a few kms. I had a bellyful of BBQ
and a pannier full of wine so didn't push it. I let him draft me into wind and up hills. He was a strong rider too.

I hit 69kmh downhill and he still vanished into the distance with a thumbs-up which was a sporting gesture.

Still, the system goes AOK. The mods I did to the bb axle has fixed the loosening problem. I simply dremelled
lines across the four chamfered faces where the crank attaches and the increased interference has helped.

Range is still outstanding; 80km is easy on a full-charge and that's in windy/ hilly conditions. No other problems.
If I had to be critical it's the abuse that the drive train cops with this system.

I'm building a carbon 29er hardtail that might prove to be a great platform for the BBS01 as well. I'll start another thread for that.

My 4000km Dillenger front hub is now doing time on my mate's bike and he loves it! He doesn't drive and his commute was via taxi at $20 a day.

I wonder when we should start charging for drafting roadies ;0)

Image

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Re: Bafang BBS01 350w vs Dillenger 250w front hub

Post by mfj197 » Jan 30, 2015 4:40 am

Good to hear it is going well. I've been wiring up a loom for mine but haven't yet mounted the motor.
byebyepetrol wrote:Still, the system goes AOK. The mods I did to the bb axle has fixed the loosening problem. I simply dremelled
lines across the four chamfered faces where the crank attaches and the increased interference has helped.
This is interesting indeed. Would you be able to take a photo or describe it - I'm having a hard time visualising the problem and your solution. Was it the two main nuts that were coming loose? Was the motor moving at all?

Michael

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Re: Bafang BBS01 350w vs Dillenger 250w front hub

Post by byebyepetrol » Jan 31, 2015 5:06 am

No worries Michael.
Five minutes of removing the crank, 5 mins of trying to take a photo at night with house lights, download, give up, scour the 'net for something clearer then five mins of Photoshop ;0)

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Re: Bafang BBS01 350w vs Dillenger 250w front hub

Post by Tats » Jan 31, 2015 8:23 pm

Think the only real efficiency could be adding some tri-bars or wearing lycra - the 29er is so big the wind resistance is huge. That's why the roadies like the drag, it's like sitting behind a semi-trailer.

I too did something similar to the crank with my dremel after your review, roughed up it all seems to be holding.

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Re: Bafang BBS01 350w vs Dillenger 250w front hub

Post by mfj197 » Feb 02, 2015 8:15 am

byebyepetrol wrote:No worries Michael.
Five minutes of removing the crank, 5 mins of trying to take a photo at night with house lights, download, give up, scour the 'net for something clearer then five mins of Photoshop ;0)

Image
Thanks for that! Right, something else to do on the build ... Have dremel, will dremel.

Much appreciated. :D

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