My Ping Battery has one bms led not going on

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
Post Reply
Blueshift   100 W

100 W
Posts: 172
Joined: May 29 2011 7:23pm
Location: California

My Ping Battery has one bms led not going on

Post by Blueshift » Jan 29 2012 2:23am

I bought a 36v 15ah lipo 4 battery a few months ago and I have been doing a little charging here and there because I havent used it that much. The last time I charged it I saw all led's solid except for one. Is that a problem?

I also just read that the sensor wire(?) should be disconnected during longer periods of storage/inactivity. By sensor wire are they talking about disconnecting the grey data ribbon? I have heard that this is stated in the papers/pdf you get when you get the battery. I did not see it but i don't doubt it is there somewhere.

Should i always keep the bms ribbon cable connected except for storage?
I have had it connected for 3 or so months and i have charged it 2 or 3 times.
I have only tested the bike our once and the battery has basically been stored.
Any help would be appreciated.

User avatar
Cold-E-Commuter   100 W

100 W
Posts: 201
Joined: Nov 27 2009 11:45pm
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado

Re: My Ping Battery has one bms led not going on

Post by Cold-E-Commuter » Jan 29 2012 3:38am

If you have not tried leaving the battery on the charger for an hour or so after all of the other LED's have lit, try doing so. Maybe even overnight. It wont hurt anything. Sometimes with a newer Ping battery it takes a few cycles for all the cells to balance. If after that it is stil a problem, contact Ping via email. He will help. I have not heard of the storage part where the ribbon is disconnected but it makes sense. Once again, Ping will help. Customer service is top notch.
Trek 3700 MTB
NC2806 in 26" Front Hub on Rockshox XC32TC fork w/ Avid BB7 disc brake
Infineon 12xIRFB4110 mosfet controller
Ebikes.ca SS Dual Torque Arm and CA/DP Large Screen Unit
CA Data Logger w/ GPS
Schwalbe Marathon Green Guard tires 26x1.5 at 70 psi

User avatar
neptronix   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 14319
Joined: Jun 15 2010 5:56pm
Location: California refugee living in Utah, USA
Contact:

Re: My Ping Battery has one bms led not going on

Post by neptronix » Jan 29 2012 3:46am

I believe what happens when you leave the 'sense' harness connected for long periods of time, is that the BMS will drain power from the 1st cell to power itself. Over a very long period of time, this will kill a parallel group of cells.

Unfortunately, many of the cheaper BMSes act like this. The term 'battery murdering system' was invented for this reason.

This is not fun to fix, but it is fixable.
Measuring the voltage on each cell individually would be helpful at diagnosing this issue.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

User avatar
dogman dan   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 35734
Joined: May 17 2008 12:53pm
Location: Las Cruces New Mexico USA

Re: My Ping Battery has one bms led not going on

Post by dogman dan » Jan 29 2012 7:06am

Hopefully it's just out of balance, from the one cell running the bms. End one won't light?

In any case, put it back on the charger, and leave it on the charger till the light comes on.

Definitely worth while to get a voltmeter. Unplug the bms so you can acess the wires to the battery on the ribbon cable, and see if any read 0v. low v means the wire is connected but the cell group needs a charge. Zero volts may mean that one sensor wire got disconnected. A disconnected wire can happen, but it's unlikely. Pings construction method makes a wire pulling loose pretty unlikely.

Storing for more than a few weeks, a bms should be disconnnected if possible. If not, charging every few weeks will work.

Blueshift   100 W

100 W
Posts: 172
Joined: May 29 2011 7:23pm
Location: California

Re: My Ping Battery has one bms led not going on

Post by Blueshift » Jan 29 2012 7:54am

Thanks for the responses. I will throw it back on the charger longer this time and see if the led pops on. Hopefully it just needs a tad more balancing. I'll let you guys know what happens.

On another note I bought a headlamp for my bike. Should i buy cheap small battery with the proper voltage or should I run it through the Ping battery? I'm not to keen on forking out the money for a converter though.

User avatar
dogman dan   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 35734
Joined: May 17 2008 12:53pm
Location: Las Cruces New Mexico USA

Re: My Ping Battery has one bms led not going on

Post by dogman dan » Jan 29 2012 10:26am

Chances are your headlamp would cook off on 36v or 48v. I used to run a 24v bike light on a drill nicad pack. So that's a convenient option if you happen to have a drill with the right voltage in the garage.

dnmun   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 16190
Joined: Jun 09 2008 1:32pm
Location: portland, or and loveland, co

Re: My Ping Battery has one bms led not going on

Post by dnmun » Jan 29 2012 10:44am

asking general questions gets generalized answers.

which led?

how long do you charge? the led has never ignited?

do you have a voltmeter? if so then measure the voltage on each cell where the sense wire plug is soldered into the BMS. measure with the pins of the voltmeter stuck into the solder on the pcb where the pin side is soldered on. measure while charging.

when we have some info then we can give real advice.

Blueshift   100 W

100 W
Posts: 172
Joined: May 29 2011 7:23pm
Location: California

Re: My Ping Battery has one bms led not going on

Post by Blueshift » Feb 05 2012 2:57pm

Update: I let the battery charge overnight and all leds are lit up. Interesting how much longer the last one took.

User avatar
wineboyrider   100 MW

100 MW
Posts: 2746
Joined: Sep 30 2009 9:08am
Location: Tularosa, New Mexico
Contact:

Re: My Ping Battery has one bms led not going on

Post by wineboyrider » Feb 05 2012 3:05pm

This happens occasionally with ping's battery and bms. Sometimes the charger even cycles on and off toward the end of the charge to balance the last few cells. dnmun is the one to ask about ping batteries for sure. Make sure you leave your ping plugged in occasionally overnight to balance the pack.. :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:
ES IS SAVED! THANK YOU JUSTIN.

dnmun   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 16190
Joined: Jun 09 2008 1:32pm
Location: portland, or and loveland, co

Re: My Ping Battery has one bms led not going on

Post by dnmun » Feb 05 2012 3:19pm

a week later, but still no knowledge about the pack since he did not measure cell voltages. he never said which led either, so now he thinks everything is ok, but he could have a problem starting, but no way to offer him advice since we don't know anything.

it is not just the ping signalab that consumes the battery charge on the first cells for the circuit current. all the BMS do that too.

this is what gets to me, try to direct people to start with the fundamentals to analyze battery problem and instead they think it is a waste of time.

i try and try to get people to make a list of cell voltages so if they have a problem, they can refer back to the previous balanced voltages, but people think the total pack voltage after sitting for a day is the only thing that matters, so they never can catch a failure in advance.

Blueshift   100 W

100 W
Posts: 172
Joined: May 29 2011 7:23pm
Location: California

Re: My Ping Battery has one bms led not going on

Post by Blueshift » Feb 06 2012 5:23pm

dnmun wrote:
this is what gets to me, try to direct people to start with the fundamentals to analyze battery problem and instead they think it is a waste of time.
Well first off thank you for your concern and willingness to help. I had a presentation to complete for college and haven't had any real time to analyze the problem. I think I have a volt meter in storage; I will have to check on that.

I did not think that the lifepo 4 was so high maintenance and unpredictable.
The led that was out was the 2nd led (assuming I am looking at it from the right angle). My vision is pretty bad so I will have to ask someone else to check the voltages for me in all likeliness.

dnmun   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 16190
Joined: Jun 09 2008 1:32pm
Location: portland, or and loveland, co

Re: My Ping Battery has one bms led not going on

Post by dnmun » Feb 06 2012 5:36pm

ok, that helps, count #1 from the end where the shunt and ground and all the mosfets are. that is the bottom. the circuit current for the v2.5 signalab comes off the bottom 3 cells so when you leave the pack uncharged for long periods, the circuit current will drain down those cells and push the pack far out of balance.

if the dark led was at the top, say #11, it would mean something totally different was happening, but i would guess it really is because of sitting unused. you can unplug the sense wire plug and the BMS will no longer drain down the first 3 cells.

but you need to realize that if those 3 cells drain way down below 2V from the circuit current, while the pack is unattended as has happened to others, it can destroy the first 3 cells and make the pack too expensive to repair. that is why we recommend you disconnect the sense wire. then the pack will stay happy for years unused. with no need to charge it until you plug in the sense wire again.

you need a voltmeter, the most important thing to analyze problems. harbor freight has the cheap ones everybody uses.

knowing what the cell voltages of the normally balanced pack are allows you to catch a deviation in how the pack balances, so you can have an idea of what happens when the pack has problems in the future. when you run into capacity shortage problems.

999zip999   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 9700
Joined: Jan 10 2010 1:40pm
Location: Dana Point So. Cal

Re: My Ping Battery has one bms led not going on

Post by 999zip999 » Feb 07 2012 12:50pm

I also found that the pins going into the bms can back out of the plastic plug. Not that it is the problem the pins and wire can back out of the plug. Hope you have fixed the problem. Good luck.

User avatar
Rassy   10 MW

10 MW
Posts: 2081
Joined: Apr 08 2007 10:58am
Location: Eugene, Oregon USA

Re: My Ping Battery has one bms led not going on

Post by Rassy » Feb 07 2012 1:24pm

Hi Blueshift,

I have found that my Ping batteries like to be used, in terms of seeing all the LED's light up together. So I try to use each battery at least once a week, and at least put it on the charger once a week.

I gave my son and his wife a 48V 15AH Ping a couple of years ago, and last winter they didn't use it very often and didn't ever charge until all LED's lit up. By the time I was able to pick up the battery a couple of cells were very low. It took me several days of close attention (i.e., letting the LED,s discharge their respective cells, then plugging in the charger again, then repeating the process) to bring the low cells up where they belonged.

Their charger does not drain the battery when it is unplugged, so we set it up on one of those little timers, and now the charger comes on every day for 15 minutes. Seems to be working good, and the battery is always fully charged and ready to use. May have some long term effect, but I long ago adopted the ES attitude that when a battery dies it gives me an excuse to get a new and better one. :D
-Rassy-

Two Delta Trikes equipped with a Bafang BBS02
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=88536&p=1291260#p1291260

dnmun   100 GW

100 GW
Posts: 16190
Joined: Jun 09 2008 1:32pm
Location: portland, or and loveland, co

Re: My Ping Battery has one bms led not going on

Post by dnmun » Feb 07 2012 1:39pm

be careful about assuming a charger does not drain the pack if the charger is turned off and the pack is still plugged into the charger. if the charger does not have a zener diode on the output, the 5.6kohm drain down resistor across the output caps can drain the pack back into the charger. but slow for sure through 5.6k.

User avatar
Cold-E-Commuter   100 W

100 W
Posts: 201
Joined: Nov 27 2009 11:45pm
Location: Fort Collins, Colorado

Re: My Ping Battery has one bms led not going on

Post by Cold-E-Commuter » Feb 11 2012 9:43pm

Good to hear that leaving it on the charger for a longer time allowed it to balance. That means you have a good pack. I had the same issue when I got my Ping and did not use it for a while. Cells 1-3 took longer. Sounds like all is well. I will also follow the advise provided here to disconnect the balance leads as there are times where it does not get used for a couple of weeks. Thanks to all other ES members that have replied.
Dan
Trek 3700 MTB
NC2806 in 26" Front Hub on Rockshox XC32TC fork w/ Avid BB7 disc brake
Infineon 12xIRFB4110 mosfet controller
Ebikes.ca SS Dual Torque Arm and CA/DP Large Screen Unit
CA Data Logger w/ GPS
Schwalbe Marathon Green Guard tires 26x1.5 at 70 psi

Post Reply