Washing machine BLDC motor ? anyone tried one?

Just picked up a 3 wire sensor-less BLDC motor from a Zanussi washing machine today and fired it up with a Xlyte 18 FET sensor-less controller.

And yes it does run...but not to a usable degree. I ran at the max voltage I could with the sensor less controller I have..so 98 volts. I am guessing a timing issue. but with no magnets on the rotor, adding halls would be another thing again. Video uploading now to You Tube.. for the second or third time...f ing net connection keeps going down after 20 min of uploading
...update...bollocks to You Tube..smaller version going up to Facebook...frock...even that failed...bloody internet connections..as soon as the kids come home from school the internet just crashes.. why cant our f i gtelecome company supply a decent service .. Am now going to try sending it to the phone and publishing it via the 3 G mobile network.. Crazy that I get better speeds on the mobile than I do on the fiber optic landline


Here are a few abservations

It is marked as 195 volt 3A RMS 300Hz 17500rpm.

Coils on outside, rotating part is the centre shaft, as expected.

24 'sets of windings, three wire as expected

No hall sensors

But here is the thing I was not expecting...the rotor is totally un magnetised. It won't even pickup small iron filings.
So is it somehow relying on induced magnetism? eddy currents ??? ....or is the unit at the end that I assumed was a speed monitor output...2 brown wires ....see pictures...something else.

No magnets in that rotor? The stator looks pretty nice.

No magnets in the rotor? That's not a BLDC, then, it's an induction motor, AFAIK. Pretty common in washing machines. I have a few here.

However, a number of WMs have BLDCs, such as Fisher & Paykel, and some Maytags I think. A member here called F&P has built a trike around one of the F&P motors, and others have experimented with them.


Regarding the WM induction motors--often there are multiple windings for different speeds, and thus more than two output wires (rather like most box fans and cieling fans). So that's probably why it has three main wires. Use one pair of them for fast spinning the drum to drain the tub, and the other wire plus one of the first pair for normal agitation use.

OK, got the video uploaded in small format.

So if it is an induction motor, what causes the magnetism in the core? is it the main windings? or should it be the two wires at the rotor end that I assumed were a speed sensor output

The main windings only have three wires, exactly the same as a 3 phase BLDC.

It is a bugger really, since there seems to be no way of telling them apart from just looking at them


[youtube]kb1iZAUW0J0[/youtube]

amberwolf said:

However, a number of WMs have BLDCs, such as Fisher & Paykel, and some Maytags I think. A member here called F&P has built a trike around one of the F&P motors, and others have experimented with them.

Click to expand...

those are not makes we see here in the UK, ( at least not in Jersey)

But looking at the quality of the motor, and then compare to the poor quality we see from China on our small scale production motors and controllers. Both the motor and the pcb on this Zanussi are perfect quality

NeilP said:

So if it is an induction motor, what causes the magnetism in the core? is it the main windings?

Click to expand...

Yes, it is induced into it (hence, "induction" ).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_motor
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or should it be the two wires at the rotor end that I assumed were a speed sensor output

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They probably are a tach, given the position. If they were in the windings I'd say a thermal cutout (also common in these, since sometimes they can get hot fast when stalled, like if a box fan falls over on it's face and the plastic grille stops the fan from spinning).

The main windings only have three wires, exactly the same as a 3 phase BLDC.

Click to expand...

Yep, and there are probably two windings, with a common center (tap). One winding is longer than the other, and/or wound differently, so when you put power across that, you get one mode (usually one speed), then if you put power across the other instead you get a different mode (a slower or faster speed, usually). If they're wound right then you get a third mode for putting power across the whole winding, leaving the center unconnected.

There are also polyphase (especailly 3-phase) induction motors, and this could be one, jsut that it's unlikely since you don't usually see a 3-phase washing machine. The Tesla uses such a motor, for instance. These work a lot like a 3-phase BLDC but are inducing the field into the rotor rather than ahving a permanent one.

It is a bugger really, since there seems to be no way of telling them apart from just looking at them

Click to expand...

Not that I'm aware of, unless it's marked on the motor which one--but if you can locate the service schematics for the washing machine it came from, it will probably tell you whcih wire color is which. If you don't knwo what model it was from, first search for the motor p/n, and see what washers it was used in, then search for service schematics for any of those.

Oh, also, AFAICR those induction motors also need a start/run capacitor. SOmetimes there are separate caps for each, or a single with three terminals, or a single with jsut two. That cap is usually what goes bad and causes people to replace the motors or the device (often the cap is built into the motor casing in some way, or ina compartment inside it; in most box fans it's up by the speed switch).

NeilP said:

those are not makes we see here in the UK, ( at least not in Jersey)

But looking at the quality of the motor, and then compare to the poor quality we see from China on our small scale production motors and controllers. Both the motor and the pcb on this Zanussi are perfect quality

Click to expand...

A search of the Zanussi parts page finds they make at least one BLDC motor for air conditioning/etc, but it doesnt' have a pic and the link to find appliances that use taht part doesnt' work (it just asks for the model of the appliance you have, isntead of giving a list like it should).

Some of the various BLDC motors found in washing machines:
http://www.google.com/images?q=BLDC+motor+washing+machine&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&client=firefox-a&hl=en&sa=X&oi=image_result_group

I noticed LG makes some BLDC models, too.

I only got this motor while wondering around a pile of scrap machines at the back of the local repair workshop..Looking for motors that were not brushed motors.

I had heard that some washing machines had BLDC motors, so never thought more than that about it, just thought that if I found a non brushed motor it would be a BLDC. Never considered that there were other non brushed motor types out there. So that buggers up my idea of a free motor for my scooter project then. Going down the dump two or three times a week to remove random brushless motors in the hope of hitting on one that is BLDC and not induction is not going to happen. It maybe free, but hours of search for it, suddenly makes it cost more in time than the money saved

No capacitors in this one, and it runs with the Xlyte controller..though not as expected..Guess it is running just by 'luck'

if there's no cap in that one then the cap would've been elseehwere in the washer.

MMost of the BLDC ones I've seen have been part of the base of the tub, quite large diameter, as they are using direct drive and need all the torque they can get.

You could actually use the motor you have, but you would need a sinewave inverter to run it properly. If you can build a sine inverter and can change the frequency, you can control the speed of it (AFAICR you control torque with voltage (current) and speed with frequency...usually a 3phase induction motor uses a VFD, variable frequency drive).

Nah far to much hassle...and lack of ability on my part. plus that is more work.. I was hoping to find a cheap (free) source of BLDC motors, to go with the selection of BLDC controllers I have. but even finding them is going to be a pain..not straight forward go to the dump pickup a non brushed motor from a washing machine and plug in and god

This GM motor has magnets inside the rotor

Do I understand this to basically be multiple motors built into one? That could be interesting.

Which motor? The one NielP found isn't; it's just a regular induction motor (probably wound for two speeds, rather than being a 3-phase).

Would using an induction controller be an option? The Tesla cars runs fine with such combinations.

It would if I had one, but since the idea was to find a motor I could use with the conttoller I have, then for me, no, not an option

atbrandt said:

Would using an induction controller be an option? The Tesla cars runs fine with such combinations.

Click to expand...

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=645175#p645175

amberwolf said:

Which motor? The one NielP found isn't; it's just a regular induction motor (probably wound for two speeds, rather than being a 3-phase).

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Okay, so you can wind them for these speeds, just had the sound of being a motor within a motor. Still, sounds like you could use one setup for around town and another for the freeway.

amberwolf said:

Regarding the WM induction motors--often there are multiple windings for different speeds, and thus more than two output wires (rather like most box fans and cieling fans). So that's probably why it has three main wires. Use one pair of them for fast spinning the drum to drain the tub, and the other wire plus one of the first pair for normal agitation use.

Click to expand...

Is it a little 3 phase induction motor with inverter drive?
Have you got the driver board?
When you test across the connections are they the same resistance values but higher than your bikes.
If it is you won't get it going much with an ebike controller which is all amps and no volts.

Note we're in dangerous territory now so usual remarks, danger not to be attempted by the unqualified and inexperienced this stuff will kill you stone cold if you touch it.
Shame for testing, in the states could pulse it on the 3ph 220V and nail it down as no load it probably want to take off, as no slip no torque, full speed.

I deleted the next paragraph as it scared the crap out of me when i read it back to myself :?
Continuing on could mod a small industrial motor drive 110Vac to 3ph 220V could power it, would need to hack into the bus at usually the rectified 110V say 160V supply (guessing) basically you'd need about 40S to power it.

too late to worry about it now. It is in the scrap bin and copper winding pulled out the stator in to the non ferrous bin

So Zannusi was the appliance of science.