Finally! The Cyclone 500 watt review...

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jondoh   1 kW

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Finally! The Cyclone 500 watt review...

Post by jondoh » Mar 14 2007 2:20am

For those who haven't seen this bike yet, follow this link:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=395

So here it is! What you’ve all been waiting for! Time for the cyclone 500 watt build review! After a few weeks of daily use, a range test, a flat and a number of adjustments, I’ve had a chance to put on some real world miles on the bike—almost 80 miles according to the ODO and in a word, my experience with the kit has been… a disappointment… but only moderately so-- let me explain.

1. top speed is around 22 ~ 23 mph (I was expecting closer to 30 mph)
2. range at 20 mph is not much better than gohub (crystalyte 408) around 14 miles with 28v @ 12 ah (I was expecting closer to 20 miles)

BUT!!! (and there are a lot of buts) I still like the bike. But first, a continuation of the negatives of the kit:

3. it’s very mechanical. Because it uses the same drive train, I’m still feeling the occasional slipping of either the freewheel crank or the internal hub (but only when I peddle as hard as I can). I worry about the stress I’m putting on these components and also the chain. I already replaced all the screws that attached the main sprocket to the crank freewheel. Three of the five screws had already fallen off before I noticed the problem. I’ve also already had to tighten the bottom bracket screws since installing the kit. The cranks are not as solid as they were when I had the cartridge bearings and old spindle before the conversion. I’m still a little worried about the durability of the chain drive, freewheel crank and nexus internal hub. But if anything does go wrong, I can repair or replace things myself.
4. the motor hangs low on the bike and I worry a little about its vulnerability there.
5. while it has gears, you spend most of your time in 2nd (more on this later) at a speed less than 20mph.
6. being only 24 ~ 29 volts and drawing up to almost 40 amps, you don’t want to be using SLA nor NiMH with this kit. The voltage sag is just too annoying. The cyclone kit obviously prefers Lithium.
7. speaking of voltage sag, the “battery meterâ€￾ is really just a voltage sag indicator and has no intelligence whatsoever.
8. the controller is internal inside the motor housing so the motor gets warm after a ride. This leaves questions about long term reliability.

And finally now for the positives:
1. It’s really light! Only 55 lbs! (soon to be 60 after I get a few more Milwaukee batts) It really doesn’t ride any different than a normal manual bike.
2. It really freewheels. No batteries? No problem! Unlike the hub motor, there’s no drag above 10 mph-- not that this is normally a huge problem anyway since most mortal human beings pedal around 10 mph on a manual bike anyway. If my batteries died and I had to peddle home, I’d MUCH rather do it on the cyclone.
3. While you spend most of your time in 2nd, if you have access to the granny gear (which I don’t since I don’t have the right shifter for my nexus internal hub) you can tackle hills efficiently. Gears after 2nd, you should consider them overdrive gears. You need to choose the overdrive gear wisely otherwise you bog down the motor and start wasting amps. A drain brain would be very handy for this but I don’t have one yet. You spend most of your time in 2nd gear at around 18 or 19 mph but if you’re willing to peddle, you can very easily get to 27mph. So performance wise, overall this bike is not THAT much different than the go-hub at 56v or the WE brushed at 36v. The only thing with the peddling, you will want to peddle quickly so that the motor can help you at its highest efficiency.
4. It has great torque. Even in 2nd gear, it accelerates very nicely—much faster than the go-hub. The bike gives you the impression that you’re riding a lot faster than you actually are. 22 mph feels a lot closer to 25 mph. Even with the better torque and acceleration, it’s more efficient than the go-hub but the torque drops off quickly as the rpms build. For around-town riding, it’s quicker than a single speed hub motor up to 18 mph while being a little more efficient but the go-hub has more top end speed (about 26 mph) and mid range torque at 56v. Again, you have to keep in mind that the cyclone kit is operating only at 28v! It’s actually pretty amazing performance at just 28v.

The cyclone has become my daily rider, mostly because it’s lighter but also I like the feeling of driving the rear wheels. The front hub now feels a little coarse and twitchy by comparison. When I accelerate hard on the hub motor, I really feel vibrations in the handle bars.

Despite obviously being a motor strapped to the bottom bracket, it’s still quite small and stealthy. When you’re stopped at the light, your leg will block the view of the motor to just about everybody. Since the controller is in the motor housing, there’s no tell-tale black controller box. The whine from the motor is subtle. If the rpms are lower, it sounds exactly like those generator headlamps they used to make-- the one with a small metal wheel that is pressed up against the bike tire. I don’t know if anyone remembers those.

If recommending a kit to someone wanting to get into ebikes for the first time, I would recommend a hub motor—only because the installation is simpler, there are less mechanical things to worry about and hub motors have a proven track record for reliability. Hub motors, despite having only one speed, are remarkably efficient and can be very fast (look at the phoenix/x5). You can also install a hub motor on a wider range of bikes. It’s not easy finding a bike with enough room by the bottom bracket to install this cyclone kit. A lot of bike frames have the kick stand mount welded to the frame in this area that gets in the way and makes mounting the kit even more of a pain. I would definitely recommend this kit to someone planning to ride up and down hills on a regular basis though. In this situation, the advantage of gears cannot be ignored.

The cyclone distributor, Jim Olsen, still claims that the kit is capable of 30 mph… in a bike with a 26â€￾ wheel. Since my bike is using a 24â€￾ wheel, there’s a small chance this could be the reason I’m not seeing 30 mph. I have my doubts. Perhaps when I get more time and money I’ll try it on a even lighter bike with maybe 700c wheels.

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Post by nightowlgk » Mar 14 2007 3:30am

thanks, I was considering the CYclone....still am, but I'm open to all suggestions for hill climbing.

The idea of a 20" folder with Clyte/Lipo comes to mind, but I'm not sure if it would feel weird to ride, since I'm so used to 26" MTB.

NGK
DAHON MATRIX 2009 26" folding MTB w/ Thudbuster, Origin 8 spacebars.
BMC V2 speed model from Ilia Brouk w/ 7 sp. freewheel
CLYTE 36-72v 35 amp analog controller CLYTE Twist Throttle
Cycle Analyst 2.1
Ping 15ah 36v BMS set to 40amps continuous- mounted in triangle.
Also: Torpedo Battery. 3- Bosch Fatpacks in plastic tube.

Previous bikes:
Wavecrest Tidal Force M-750X, S-750X
Currie I-Zip Cruiser Enlightened Nimh - smooth and light but underpowered
WE-600w brushless SLA

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Ypedal   100 GW

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Post by Ypedal » Mar 14 2007 9:44am

Hmm.. nice review.. thanks !

Using the cyclone, proper gearing is very important.. if you are stuck using only 2nd gear.. your rear cluster could be adjusted to widen the usable gearing to help the motor and the pedal cadence out....

Using Hub motors for Hill climbing means using them correctly as well...

1- Mild hills and will to pedal = 36v, 408 or 409 in a 26" wheel.. Go-Hub

2- Big Hills.. Lazy.. Need-for-speed = small wheel ( 16 or 20 " ) .. 409 or even 4012 at 72v 20 amps.. Ypedal way !! lol..
ES site status page:
http://www.ypedal.com/ES/ES.htm
----------------
http://www.ypedal.com

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jondoh   1 kW

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Post by jondoh » Mar 14 2007 11:56am

Hey there Ypedal. I'm not stuck using JUST 2nd. I have access to gears 2nd through 7th with my shifter. Actually, I guess I could also carry some pliers to disconnect the shifter cable (which causes the nexus hub to default to 1st gear and 14 mph top speed) in case i want to tackle large hills.

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Post by Lowell » Mar 14 2007 11:56am

Tru blue loctite on all the fasteners.

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Post by xyster » Mar 14 2007 11:59am

Great review, thank you!
Ebike: 5304/20", 72V 35A controller, 33AH 80V 20s15p (18650 sized cells) DIY lithium-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 47&start=0
Scooter: '06 Stealth s1000, 48V 30A, 4x10ah SLA
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=148
Ebike: '06 Currie Mongoose, 32V 35A, 32V 22AH hybrid SLA/Li-ion pack
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1010

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Post by knoxie » Mar 14 2007 5:01pm

Hi

Thanks for the review, the cyclone isnt a bad kit it needs refinement though and I think your honest review has nailed most of the issues that others have found with this kit.

The X5 is a very good motor but it is a monster compared to the little motor you have and should very well out perform your motor considering the weight of it, you put equivalent power through the little cyclone and it would out climb an X5! he he for sure :-) 500W in to an X5 and its only just turning! ha ha :lol: still they are good lumps for sure.

Cheers

Knoxie

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Reid Welch   10 MW

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Post by Reid Welch » Mar 14 2007 5:14pm

Good work.

I think the first order of business to come is to adjust the drive ratio of the motor to meet the same needs as the pedaler.

And fix that shifter. And run the thing in.

It appears to me that the main problem is that the cyclone is overgeared in relation to the hub. A smaller chainring next? Or gain a first gear and see how that works.

The motor is expected to get warm. Hell, it's small. They painted it black to help the cooling a bit. Black radiates heat the best of all colors.

Curiously but logically, the heat radiates as IR light, not as "heat".

(thanks fechter for that link elsewhere to bad science, corrected)

Three of the five screws had already fallen off before I noticed the problem.
Blue locktite, as already noted. Loctite everything that may unscrew itself.
I’ve also already had to tighten the bottom bracket screws since installing the kit.
sidebar:

Expected, because the brackets can only make point-contact to the frame The mounts (aluminum) and the frame are bedding into each other, and so go loose.

I am a fan of using steel-filled epoxy putty to make "polygrip fits" of such odd parts. This can be done, removably, by greasing the painted tubing OR wrapping it with a single wrap of Cling Film food wrap. The latter is the surest way to protect the paint. OR make it semi-permanent by bonding direct to the paint. The putty would the be applied and worked into one half of the assembly, then the parting line greased, then do the other half.

It's always removable, even if done monolithically, by application of heat from a heat gun, and picking off the softened epoxy with a dental probe. All epoxies I've seen go to cheese-state at under 200F, losing all adhesive strength. (the required heat won't destroy paint; certainly not powdercoat)

By working epoxy putting into the voids, tooling the finished surface with a wet finger while yet soft, then finish sanding and then painting, you can make sculpture of the motor mount's interface to the bike frame.
And why? For solidity, protection of the frame long-term, and improved appearance, and less places for dirt/mud to collect.

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Post by NickF23 » Mar 14 2007 5:51pm

great review and vid.

Your poor range is to be expected with SLA, I can think of one nimh pack that should be able to handle 40 amps peak without too much sag. See http://www.ebikes.ca 24 volt 18AH nexcell pack. no specific discharge rating all the other nexcell packs have very high discharge ratings and low impendence, might be worth a look, but check with justin for the specific specs.


The other point is that if your internal controller dies it might well be possible to use a crystalyte 40amp controller at 36 volts or above. should get you your 30 mph.

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joystix2   100 W

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Post by joystix2 » Mar 14 2007 6:05pm

Great review and from my test rides of your bike I agree wholeheartedly. After riding the heavy A$$ Phoenix with the 48v13ah batts I thought about your bike when I passed this dirt trail that lead into the mountains. Thats what your bike is perfect for. Great torque in low gears and Lithiums make a perfect combo for dirt trails.

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Post by JDELUNA » Mar 14 2007 6:07pm

Just wondering how would a Currie USPD compare in power and performance since it too uses about the same voltage ?? Thanks for anyinfo. God Bless :)

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Post by NickF23 » Mar 14 2007 6:15pm

JDELUNA wrote:Just wondering how would a Currie USPD compare in power and performance since it too uses about the same voltage ?? Thanks for anyinfo. God Bless :)
At 24 volts with a kickass battery the uspd does about 16mph. The most current you'll normally see is a little over 30 amps. Translates to about 800 watts and you'll only see it whilst accelerating or climbing a hill. At 16 mph it roughly draws about 200 watts. Probably very similar motor to the cyclone, the difference being with the abilityof the cyclone to use more of the motors power by using the bikes gears, and thus get a higher top speed.

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jondoh   1 kW

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Post by jondoh » Mar 24 2007 1:47am

Hey folks, just a quick update...

I'm liking this cyclone more and more. A few days ago, i adjusted the motor alignment. Seems that the chain wasn't passing straight from the main chain ring sprocket to the motor cog. The chain was making a kind of awful grindy noise. I adjusted the motor and voila! No noise and a bit better performance. I can now do about 24~25 mph now where before the adjustment I was getting 22~23 mph.

I went on a ride with my wife last weekend. She took the normal manual bike and I took the cyclone. Of course I rode a lot more slowly than normal and when I got home (after 7 miles of about 12 mph) i still had 3 bars showing on the battery meter! That would be about 21 miles range with 12 amp hours-- which was what I was hoping for at 20 mph.

Finially, I have wired in another two batteries. I have 6 now total! That's 28v * 18ah. I just went on a quick test ride. I was pretty much full throttle in 2nd gear and keeping between 18 ~ 22 mph. After 6 miles, I had 3 bars showing. That means 18 ~ 21 miles range at those speeds. I'm thinking I could put this on the go hub and get roughly the same range... hmmm...
Last edited by jondoh on Mar 24 2007 1:05pm, edited 1 time in total.

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joystix2   100 W

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Post by joystix2 » Mar 24 2007 12:02pm

Hey Jon great to hear you got another set of batteries for more amps. I know you have the parents staying for a couple of weeks but you need to find a way to ditch them and the wife for a few hours to go for a nice long ride again. This time we'll do a 20mile ride. ......JUST KIDDING. You probably have to do the dishes for the next few months and some massages to get those 2 extra batteries...

Ric

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Post by nightowlgk » Mar 24 2007 4:30pm

How about comments comparing Cyclone to the new BMC/Lipo from EV Tech / Doug C.?

I am hopefully meeting Jim Olsen tomorrow for a test drive of the Cyclone and the BMC is my other possible choice- both on a Montague.

Light weight and hill climbing power are my 2 main requirements.

NGK
DAHON MATRIX 2009 26" folding MTB w/ Thudbuster, Origin 8 spacebars.
BMC V2 speed model from Ilia Brouk w/ 7 sp. freewheel
CLYTE 36-72v 35 amp analog controller CLYTE Twist Throttle
Cycle Analyst 2.1
Ping 15ah 36v BMS set to 40amps continuous- mounted in triangle.
Also: Torpedo Battery. 3- Bosch Fatpacks in plastic tube.

Previous bikes:
Wavecrest Tidal Force M-750X, S-750X
Currie I-Zip Cruiser Enlightened Nimh - smooth and light but underpowered
WE-600w brushless SLA

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Post by Reid Welch » Mar 24 2007 6:32pm

:) Good to learn that the cyclone installation only needed the usual fine tunings.

I was feeling durned sorry for the poor thing, but then again,

sign me off as


a sensitive mechanic/watch/clock/Model T repairman (ret)


Highly mechanical old-tech things turn more truly alive when carefully hand-fed.
Finesse, Jon, finesse it.

Now give it a sweet apple, eh, and never put it to bed wet.

:wink:

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Post by joystix2 » Mar 24 2007 7:44pm

knightowlgk,

Give my brother a couple of weeks. He's in the middle of his build waiting for his rear BMC to get spoked and rimmed. He'll be running the BMC on 52v Lithiums and 26" rim. Then we can compare it to the Phoenix at 48v. I don't think he'll be able to compare it to the Cyclone only because the BMC will be ran on a 36-72v Clyte controller. You can't compare a 36v system to a 24v system.

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Post by nightowlgk » Mar 26 2007 3:15am

COOL, I wrote this before I noticed your post about your brother, but here it is: a mini review.

I just met Jim Olsen for a demo of 3 different Cyclone fitted bikes. I've been debating between a BMC Hub and the Cyclone kit and I've been lucky to try this setup.

Great guy. He had his MTB package in 350 w and 500 w. w Lipo batts. .....and a Downtube folding FS 2005 model w/ 500 w. All batteries ( 10lbs.) were mounted on Seatpost racks and there was not any strain at all. The best one was an REI tubular rack with a nice clamp w/ teeth on it (no rubber ring).

THe folding was very nice, but the geometry was a little cramped; even for me the bars were too close. The new models do have adjustable stems and with a new set of slightly wider, upturned bars, one could have a really light, swift folder.

Having said that, I decided that 26" will be much more stable and forgiving when I come DOWN the hills and trails I am trying to climb. My other thread came to the same conclusion.

HE doesn't even have these bikes and batteries up on his website yet, but he will soon.

I took them up a pretty steep road (top of Reseda Bl. near Mullholland fire road). Probably 8-10%.

Many bikers were crawling up in lowest gear (or walking)- a very long hill. A few older MTB couples were very impressed with the system and didn't have any attitude at all.

Both the 350w and the 500w went up easily at 10-12mph w/ a little pedaling in 2nd and their characteristic whine. I only weigh 130........ Actually, it sounds like the sound of Knoxie's first puma/BMX video, but I know that is mostly because of the proximity of the microphone and the auto gain circuit on his camcorder.

I'm sure it takes some amphours to do this. DB read about 1.2Ah and it seemed to average 750-800 watts for just under a 2/3 mile climb....but he sells a 20 Ah 24v battery for $775 w/ 2 chargers - so range is probably better than most 36 v 15 Ah setups.

This motor seems like the best hill climber, especially for the light weight, and the fact that it uses your gears w/ good torque. It also went very fast; at least 22 mph on the only short, level part of the road. I'm sure it would go 25+ on the flat. Plenty fast for me. I have kids.

The only drawback for me is I'm so used to the ultra quiet ride of my I-ZIP cruiser Enlightened.....unfortunately, it is only good for level terrain, and I need to go up a few hills to get the best views of the valley and away from cars, curbs, etc.

My current wish list includes a Montague, or other folding MTB w/ SRAM DUal drive 3 sp hub/ 8 speed cassette/ semi comfort setup w/ adjustable stem, upturned handlebars, suspension seat post, and this 500 wt motor.

SO, if only I could compare a BMC/Puma on a similar hill.......anyone here in LA???

NGK
DAHON MATRIX 2009 26" folding MTB w/ Thudbuster, Origin 8 spacebars.
BMC V2 speed model from Ilia Brouk w/ 7 sp. freewheel
CLYTE 36-72v 35 amp analog controller CLYTE Twist Throttle
Cycle Analyst 2.1
Ping 15ah 36v BMS set to 40amps continuous- mounted in triangle.
Also: Torpedo Battery. 3- Bosch Fatpacks in plastic tube.

Previous bikes:
Wavecrest Tidal Force M-750X, S-750X
Currie I-Zip Cruiser Enlightened Nimh - smooth and light but underpowered
WE-600w brushless SLA

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Post by joystix2 » Mar 26 2007 8:56am

I hear ya on the Montague Folder. I remember when they had an Electric Montague a few years back with some kind of Currie set up a few years ago being sold as a kit. I was into scooters at the time but wished I could have picked one up. The price was that bad either. Then I noticed after they had discontinued the model they were all over Ebay for a while.
If your looking for Hill climbing ability I would suggest the 500wt Cyclone. It's light and thats what you want for climbing. Are you planning on doing Lithiums with your system?

Ric

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Post by nightowlgk » Mar 26 2007 11:07am

Lipo's, YEs,

NGK
DAHON MATRIX 2009 26" folding MTB w/ Thudbuster, Origin 8 spacebars.
BMC V2 speed model from Ilia Brouk w/ 7 sp. freewheel
CLYTE 36-72v 35 amp analog controller CLYTE Twist Throttle
Cycle Analyst 2.1
Ping 15ah 36v BMS set to 40amps continuous- mounted in triangle.
Also: Torpedo Battery. 3- Bosch Fatpacks in plastic tube.

Previous bikes:
Wavecrest Tidal Force M-750X, S-750X
Currie I-Zip Cruiser Enlightened Nimh - smooth and light but underpowered
WE-600w brushless SLA

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Post by joystix2 » Mar 26 2007 1:11pm

THe Lipo's and Cyclone kit make a good combo for mountain climbing. And as long as 25mph with no more need for speed mod in the future is OK then it's perfect for you.

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Post by Mathurin » Mar 31 2007 12:26am

This is pretty relevant:


3.10. Re: SV: [power-assist] Re: best electric motor
Posted by: "Bill Bushnell" bill.bushnell@pobox.com wbushnel
Date: Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:03 pm ((PDT))

On Fri, 30 Mar 2007, mileshellon wrote:

> But the Cyclone 500 W motor has an efficiency of 97% :)
>
> http://www.cyclone-tw.com/dc24.htm

I just tested last night the efficiency of an almost new Cyclone 500-watt
motor on my Gold Rush.

http://tinyurl.com/ytwjh2

I've seen the same spec and charts from Cyclone and was suspicious that
the efficiency was not as high as claimed (97% or ~90% on the chart). I
tested with a DrainBrain between the battery and the motor and a PowerTap
power measuring hub on the rear wheel. My efficiency measurements include
all system losses except tire rubber losses.

I took the measurements on the workstand at full throttle using the rear
brake as the load. The PowerTap smoothes its output, but the DrainBrain
jumps around. I tended to take the median reading on the DrainBrain as
well as multiple samples to reduce sampling error. At higher power levels
the motor got warm to hot, but never too hot to touch. The motor case
warms slowly and cools slowly. The brake rims also got hot, and I
suspended my tests when they got too hot to touch as I didn't want to blow
my tire off the rim.

Running with no load, the Cyclone system draws just under 100 watts, which
seemed rather high to me. (When I first tested this the motor drew 106
watts, but after some use it was down to about 90 watts.) I expect this
will go down further as the planetary gear reducer breaks in. I'll have
to measure it again after a few months of use. As I increased input power
I measured a nice, broad overall efficiency peak of just over 70%, which
is similar to but not quite as efficient as a Transmagnetics 400-watt
motor that I'm using in my Power Pursuit (http://tinyurl.com/35gr89).

This is more in line with my expectations, although after the promise of
90%+ efficiency I was secretly hoping the Cyclone would be at least as
efficient as the Transmagnetics.

My electrical hook-up is with 10 gauge copper, about three to four feet of
paired wire altogether, running through 3 sets of Anderson PowerPole 45A
connectors.

A liberal estimate of drivetrain losses is about 8% (motor chain: 14t-46t,
new chain, perfect chainline; regular chain: 20t-11t, worst-case, with old
but non-squeaking chain, good chainline), leaving the efficiency of the
Cyclone package (motor, controller, planetary gear reducer) at about 80%.
Perhaps the planetary gear drive will loosen up with use and yield a
higher overall efficiency, especially at lower power.

I find that Cyclone offers a convenient package for a home mechanic to
install a through-the-gears power assist. (I didn't choose the other
through-the-gears power assist model, Stokemonkey, because its 36-volt
system would require running three 12-volt U1 batteries instead of two,
making for more difficult battery placement.)

My main concern at this point is that the 500-watt motor may be too
powerful, its efficiency peak occurring where output power is higher than
350 watts, forcing me to ride faster to stay in the efficient region.
(Riding faster causes greater nonlinear aero losses unless I'm climbing a
steep hill.)

I'll use this setup for a while and see how it goes. I might find the
power addictive as long as I don't often run the batteries down within one
discharge cycle.

But, I'm curious to see if the 360-watt model has its efficiency curve
shifted down so that it reaches its plateau at 200 instead of 350 watts
output. Anyone have a used 360-watt Cyclone motor they want to sell?

Bill Bushnell
http://pobox.com/~bushnell/
You have to know, not fear, that someday you are going to die. Until you know that and embrace that, you are useless. - Tyler Durden, Fight club. Ditch the fake identity you've created for yourself, walk your own way in a society of mindless drones to become real, you are not your social status.

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Post by Mathurin » May 13 2007 5:38pm

Moar:


Sun May 6, 2007 4:25 pm

Show Message Option
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Use Fixed Width Font
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Bill Bushnell <bill>
wbushnel

Folks:

After receiving one of Mike Spark's (sparkmike@...) Cyclone
360-watt motors I put it through some testing , comparing it with the
Cyclone 500-watt motor.

The first plot is Efficiency vs. Power In at the optimum RPM according
to the manufacturer's data.

http://tinyurl.com/23skof

The next plot is somewhat more interesting for me because it includes
the effect of the planetary gear reducer and the bicycle drivetrain,
measuring Power In using a DrainBrain and Power Out using a PowerTap
hub. The main difference I see is that the 360-watt motor is more
efficient between 200 and 400 watts Power In, and the 500-watt motor is
more efficient above 400 watts Power In, although the 360 isn't much
worse than the 500 up to 700 watts Power In.

Gears are more efficient when transmitting higher power, and this comes
through in the chart by showing the left-handed upward tilt of the
efficiency curve for the Cyclone 360 shown in the manufacturer's data
being flattened when run through the gears and having a slightly lower
efficiency overall, somewhere around 69-70%, while the flat part of the
500-watt motor's efficiency sits just above 70%.

What makes the smaller motor more efficient in practice is that at
lower power levels, one tends to reserve use of the motor to climbing
hills only rather than to fight headwinds or to run at faster speeds.
A further benefit of the smaller motor is that shifting under load is
less hazardous to the cassette sprockets should a mis-shift occur,
there being less power available to bend or break sprocket teeth.

I took measurements at various throttle settings and at various RPMs,
although at no time was the RPM of the motor below the RPM of peak
power.

http://tinyurl.com/272d5v

My own subjective observation is that the 360-watt motor is better for
riding with other cyclists as it's easier to keep from riding away from
them. Also, the smaller motor allows for a longer range because one is
less likely to try to pull too much power from it fighting the wind
where the energy is lost to friction or by being careless with the
throttle.

I'll probably use the 360-watt motor most of the time on my Gold Rush,
unless I'm interested in all-out speed. Fortunately these two motors
are quickly interchangeable on their mount. The 500-watt motor may
work better with a heavier cyclist, on a work bike, or on a velomobile.
I weigh 180 lbs, my fully-loaded Gold Rush hybrid bike weighs 70-80
lbs, depending on how much water I'm carrying.

Here's a link to the album showing the whole power assist installation
on my Gold Rush.

http://tinyurl.com/2lgc54

Yesterday I rode the Gold Rush with the Cyclone 360 and a pair of
Valence U1 batteries, using the motor only on the uphills.

distance: 116.2 miles
climbing: 8250 feet
average speed: 15.3 mph
total motive energy: 4800kJ
battery energy available (nominal): 1024 watt-hours (3686kJ)
battery energy used: 626 watt-hours (2254kJ)
battery energy used for motion (net of efficiency losses): 1577kJ
max power out: 777 watts
ave. power out: 180 watts
watt-hours per mile: 5.4
feet climbed per watt-hour: 13.2

A month ago I rode a similar distance with slightly less climbing using
the Cyclone 500, but used the throttle heavily, especially while riding
into a stiff headwind for about 25 miles.

distance: 116.0 miles
climbing: 6450 feet
average speed: 17.7 mph
total motive energy: 5600kJ
battery energy available (nominal): 1024 watt-hours (3686kJ)
battery energy used: 1024.5 watt-hours (3688kJ)
battery energy used for motion (net of efficiency losses): 2619kJ
max power out: 926 watts
ave. power out: 239 watts
watt-hours per mile: 8.8
feet climbed per watt-hour: 6.3

Power out and motive energy were measured with a PowerTap hub. Energy
used was measured with a DrainBrain.

-- Bill
http://pobox.com/~bushnell/
You have to know, not fear, that someday you are going to die. Until you know that and embrace that, you are useless. - Tyler Durden, Fight club. Ditch the fake identity you've created for yourself, walk your own way in a society of mindless drones to become real, you are not your social status.

JEB   100 W

100 W
Posts: 287
Joined: Jul 19 2007 5:47pm
Location: Santa Barbara Ca

Post by JEB » Oct 15 2007 3:14pm

as to the cyclone planetary gear box breaking in to lower the losses - years ago I read a artical on gear box friction losses- they were claming up to a 20% less loss in the gear box when adding moly-d - it might be something to try.

cerewa   100 W

100 W
Posts: 159
Joined: Oct 25 2007 5:06pm

Post by cerewa » Oct 26 2007 7:47pm

what's moly-d?

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