The Haleakala Volcano test

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The Haleakala Volcano test

Post by EbikeMaui » Apr 07, 2007 3:54 pm

Before I made this run several times Collin did a evaluation on my motor compared to a Scott motor that Eric used on his bike.
In real world use I'm sure the figures Ciollin came up with are 5 to 10 % off but close!
I did make it all the way up on three 12 volt 33ah rated Evercel batteries.(the same power density as NIMH batteries) but after a 20 minute rest 1/8 mile from the top of the summit.Cilins guesstimate was 2.6 hours if I made it at all.That was about exactly right.My total time all the way up was 3 hours.= 48 watt hours per hour on the UP hill climb of 36 miles. The trip down hill at 35 mph+ speeds was already paid for comming out to a 20 mph avrage speed on the round trip at 24 watt hours per mile for the 72 mile trip in the most extream conditions.I still doubt it that the Scott motor would have made it 1/3 of the way up without over heating and sucking the life out of the batteries.
http://tinyurl.com/2sc8ek
http://tinyurl.com/2kh9t7
http://tinyurl.com/334upj
The route.
http://tinyurl.com/2lsbk2
http://tinyurl.com/2zoe6k
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Post by knoxie » Apr 07, 2007 6:48 pm

Yawn

How old is that???????????????


Snore!! I am sorry Randy this is older than old news from oldsville oldnewstown older than oldsville! whats the point? evercell batteries ha ha cmon my god who's living in the past now.

Randy why are you posting this BS its so old now, do you think people on endless sphere have only just started with all this??

Snore.............

Your bike and motor is old old news snore snore snore snore snore

Ha ha hahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahjahaha

You keep doing this Randy?? why? nobody gets it? they never have and never will?

Knoxie

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Post by EbikeMaui » Apr 07, 2007 6:55 pm

knoxie wrote:Yawn

How old is that???????????????


Snore!! I am sorry Randy this is older than old news from oldsville oldnewstown older than oldsville! whats the point? evercell batteries ha ha cmon my god who's living in the past now.

Randy why are you posting this BS its so old now, do you think people on endless sphere have only just started with all this??

Snore.............

Your bike and motor is old old news snore snore snore snore snore

Ha ha hahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahjahaha

You keep doing this Randy?? why? nobody gets it? they never have and never will?

Knoxie
Old news shows how far behind you are!
This Video was old too but I ride the route often on the way to taking surfing videos of my son at Windmills with my old technology ebike.
http://tinyurl.com/yr7a34
http://tinyurl.com/yqrhrz
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Post by knoxie » Apr 07, 2007 7:15 pm

Hi Randy

I'm not saying you don't have a good e machine all I am saying is its rather old news now, we have all seen this years ago, its no different? what's the deal? there are many e-bikes with similar batteries that could stay with your bike up the mountain I don't see why you feel the need to keep on about it?

Your bike was a good idea, its just the Chinese have made better ones that are available now for people to use now before they die, that's the point old fellow, your ideas have been echoing around for so long now, nobody has bothered with them so why keep on with it?

None of us live on a volcano you are the only volcano poster I know of we don't need volcano beating e-bikes! I don't need to go there as I have already done so.

I used to stand behind you Randy years ago and sometimes defended you against the usual naysayers but you haven't moved on? that's why I cant sit back and watch you dredge up things you did 3 years ago, it doesn't help people on here especially as 3 years later nobody can get hold of your motor or controller, why bother?

Knoxie

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Post by EbikeMaui » Apr 07, 2007 7:44 pm

knoxie wrote:Hi Randy

I'm not saying you don't have a good e machine all I am saying is its rather old news now, we have all seen this years ago, its no different? what's the deal? there are many e-bikes with similar batteries that could stay with your bike up the mountain I don't see why you feel the need to keep on about it?

Your bike was a good idea, its just the Chinese have made better ones that are available now for people to use now before they die, that's the point old fellow, your ideas have been echoing around for so long now, nobody has bothered with them so why keep on with it?

None of us live on a volcano you are the only volcano poster I know of we don't need volcano beating e-bikes! I don't need to go there as I have already done so.

I used to stand behind you Randy years ago and sometimes defended you against the usual naysayers but you haven't moved on? that's why I cant sit back and watch you dredge up things you did 3 years ago, it doesn't help people on here especially as 3 years later nobody can get hold of your motor or controller, why bother?

Knoxie
You say so.... if there was a ebike market created here in Hawaii , there would not be a e-bike product sold or available anywhere in the world right now that would be reliable in a rental business here.If and when ebikes become legal in Hawaii again I will have what it takes to provide a product that will fit the bill.In the meantime technology I have acess to and have in my garage you have no idea of and I will not tell you about untill I am good and ready if I ever do.. lol Let me ask you a question? what do YOU have that is so specail ? the old tech you post about falls apart rather fast if used like most people expect to use things= In ANY conditions.
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Post by knoxie » Apr 07, 2007 8:01 pm

Hmm you lost me there?

You say i am posting old tech?

Ok here we go.. I am posting available hub motors and controllers and batteries that are a match for what you have been using and are available.

The trouble is Randy you post about your motor and bike but you dont mention to people that because your bike and motor isn't available there are ones that are available that can perform the same if not better?

This is what pisses people off, what's the point in propping up your concept to the world if people can not buy it? surely its better to show people what's available now??? Your ideas are a little clumsy and not practice and can be achieved with a combination of what's already available.

I must say your self belief is quite outstanding considering all that is available off the shelf to people now.

The world will end end and still Randy Draper will still be harping on and on and on and on

Isn't Hawai drifting away from America as we speak? say no more :lol:

Knoxie[/quote]

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Post by Lowell » Apr 07, 2007 8:42 pm

I didn't even bother to follow the link until Knoxie posted, but holy crap is that an old article! Welcome back to 2003!

Congrats on having the patience to ride 12mph for 3 hours though... I feel like I'm going slow at less than 30mph up a hill.

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Post by EbikeMaui » Apr 07, 2007 9:47 pm

Lowell wrote:I didn't even bother to follow the link until Knoxie posted, but holy crap is that an old article! Welcome back to 2003!

Congrats on having the patience to ride 12mph for 3 hours though... I feel like I'm going slow at less than 30mph up a hill.
What is a boreing speed the scenery makes up for.This year I went back down hill for something different and doubled back up this route to 5000 feet just to pass all the cycletothesun bike Racers again before I went back down to pass them all again on the way home.Welcome to a world record challange no one else will likely ever do.Or can do with off the shelf parts and batteries on a ebike.
http://tinyurl.com/yrvqs3
http://tinyurl.com/2bvj6f
Note this video to 5000 ft elevation including "the detour down hill" and back up was 36.6 miles in a hour and a half. Then it wass all down hill for free! above 35 mph. Not that boring but the large lithium cam barrery and tape was only good for the slow 90 min.
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Post by patrick_mahoney » Apr 07, 2007 10:36 pm

I personally still think that nickel-zinc cells are underrated. I'm not sure what Evercell did that put them in financial trouble, but from my understanding of the technology, I wouldn't think that the batteries were the trouble.

I hadn't seen the video before, and thought it was pretty neat.

I hear your point, knoxie, about not making a big deal about technology that can't be purchased, but I do think that nickel-zinc cells are pretty cool and wish that someone else would start making them - although with nickel prices nowadays, they'd probably be more expensive than lipolys. :? I don't think posting a video 4 years old is totally irrelevant - particularly not about a battery technology that I really wish someone would try to bring back to life.

I'm a big enough fan of nickel-zinc that I've been gathering books and papers about them. I think nickel-zinc cells are neat enough that I'm seriously thinking about trying to make my own. I can buy most of what I need on Ebay and from local machine shops. At this point I've just been thinking about it though. Aside from buying a few books that cover nickel-zinc cells in detail and searching through patents and research paers, I haven't done much. But I'm seriously contemplating it.
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Post by EbikeMaui » Apr 07, 2007 11:00 pm

patrick_mahoney wrote:I personally still think that nickel-zinc cells are underrated. I'm not sure what Evercell did that put them in financial trouble, but from my understanding of the technology, I wouldn't think that the batteries were the trouble.

I hadn't seen the video before, and thought it was pretty neat.


.
As long as you do not eceed the motors batteries most efficient range.... Adding just one more battery or grade of the hill may effect most ebike products in a not so great of a way ..But .... There is lithium ! MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM its 3 times as good.The problem with evercells is the low discharge rate of .5 C for long cycle life
Last edited by EbikeMaui on Apr 07, 2007 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lowell » Apr 07, 2007 11:22 pm

EbikeMaui wrote:
Lowell wrote:I didn't even bother to follow the link until Knoxie posted, but holy crap is that an old article! Welcome back to 2003!

Congrats on having the patience to ride 12mph for 3 hours though... I feel like I'm going slow at less than 30mph up a hill.
What is a boreing speed the scenery makes up for.This year I went back down hill for something different and doubled back up this route to 5000 feet just to pass all the cycletothesun bike Racers again before I went back down to pass them all again on the way home.Welcome to a world record challange no one else will likely ever do.Or can do with off the shelf parts and batteries on a ebike.
http://tinyurl.com/yrvqs3
http://tinyurl.com/2bvj6f
Note this video to 5000 ft elevation including "the detour down hill" and back up was 36.6 miles in a hour and a half. Then it wass all down hill for free! above 35 mph. Not that boring but the large lithium cam barrery and tape was only good for the slow 90 min.
24.4mph sounds a lot better. As far as nobody else being able to do that I think you're very much mistaken, and the only reason you can make such claims is nobody else will be able to verify their results since you live on an island in the middle of nowhere.

What's the 0-40mph time and top speed on your bike on level ground?

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Post by EbikeMaui » Apr 07, 2007 11:32 pm

Lowell wrote:
EbikeMaui wrote:
Lowell wrote:I didn't even bother to follow the link until Knoxie posted, but holy crap is that an old article! Welcome back to 2003!

Congrats on having the patience to ride 12mph for 3 hours though... I feel like I'm going slow at less than 30mph up a hill.
What is a boreing speed the scenery makes up for.This year I went back down hill for something different and doubled back up this route to 5000 feet just to pass all the cycletothesun bike Racers again before I went back down to pass them all again on the way home.Welcome to a world record challange no one else will likely ever do.Or can do with off the shelf parts and batteries on a ebike.
http://tinyurl.com/yrvqs3
http://tinyurl.com/2bvj6f
Note this video to 5000 ft elevation including "the detour down hill" and back up was 36.6 miles in a hour and a half. Then it wass all down hill for free! above 35 mph. Not that boring but the large lithium cam barrery and tape was only good for the slow 90 min.
24.4mph sounds a lot better. As far as nobody else being able to do that I think you're very much mistaken, and the only reason you can make such claims is nobody else will be able to verify their results since you live on an island in the middle of nowhere.

What's the 0-40mph time and top speed on your bike on level ground?
0 - 22mph in 5 sec is all I drag race tested for.I could only guess so I won't.
There are mountains elsewhere with 5 000 ft elevation climbs in 20 miles distance but still no videos.
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Post by patrick_mahoney » Apr 07, 2007 11:47 pm

But .... There is lithium ! MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM its 3 times as good.
Yes, they are very nice batteries in terms of weight and capacity and, in the case of lithium polymer, power output, but the longevity issues are frustrating. Once they are made, they just slowly die whether you use them or not. It's one thing to have them die as you use them... it's another to see them essentially electronically "rot" away. This electronic rot coupled with the high price has me wondering about alternatives that are lighter than lead. And I've never much liked NiMH batteries - from poor experiences with them.

I'm pretty enthusiastic about lithium ion and lithium polymer batteries, but, this being spring, I got ready to fly my model airplanes and helicopters and have tested out my batteries and they are definitely noticeably weaker than last summer. These are mostly name-brand cells and they are mostly less than two years old. I store them during the winter at about 12 celsius, about half-charged - which is what the books and experts claim is the best (ok, 0 celsius is better, but I don't have space in the freezer). It's very frustrating - particularly since the cells are expensive.
The problem with evercells is the low discharge rate of .5 C for long cycle life.
Yes, this was a problem with evercells, but it wouldn't necessarily be a huge concern if you made them home-made and made the plates removeable. Nickel-zinc batteries are capable of among the highest discharge rates of any type of batteries - except that the zinc electrode tends to corrode quickly at high discharge rates. There's been several recent papers and patents talking about changes to the electrolyte to improve the degredation of the zinc electrode - they didn't look too hard to implement at home - the materials weren't too exotic... relatively speaking. And then if I figured out a good way to make the plates - and a couple of books cover this in pretty good detail, then I could swap out the plates over time as the "shape changes" in the zinc electrode occur. Zinc is fairly cheap.
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Post by Lowell » Apr 07, 2007 11:53 pm

Maybe it's because most e-bikers don't commute up mountains. Show us some tests that can be easily duplicated by anyone. Saying that I can bike from Port Coquitlam to Richmond in 36 minutes is pretty useless to anyone that doesn't live in Vancouver BC, but 0-40mph in 10 seconds or 49mph on level ground is something anyone can compare to. For the efficiency freaks, I get 36-38Wh/km on my commute if I ride fast.

Certainly you must know what the top speed is?

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Post by EbikeMaui » Apr 08, 2007 2:31 am

Lowell wrote:Maybe it's because most e-bikers don't commute up mountains. Show us some tests that can be easily duplicated by anyone. Saying that I can bike from Port Coquitlam to Richmond in 36 minutes is pretty useless to anyone that doesn't live in Vancouver BC, but 0-40mph in 10 seconds or 49mph on level ground is something anyone can compare to. For the efficiency freaks, I get 36-38Wh/km on my commute if I ride fast.

Certainly you must know what the top speed is?
Yes I do. With the gearing and voltage I use.It's about 42 mph. Fast enough for me.
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Post by Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh » Apr 08, 2007 7:24 am

When I first read the subject heading it got my hopes up that it was a test in the volcano rather than on. :lol:

Otherwise it's simply a mountain run. The volcano distinction plays no part in it whasoever!
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Kick down the barricades Listen what the kids say.
From time to time people change their minds But the Frock is here to stay.
I've seen it all from the bottom to the top Everywhere I go the kids wanna Frock.
Around the world or around the block Everywhere I go the kids wanna Frock.

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Post by xyster » Apr 08, 2007 7:40 am

Otherwise it's simply a mountain run. The volcano distinction plays no part in it whasoever!
It would if Randy was man enough to take his hot bike through one of the flowing lava fields. What can we pressure Randy into doing for the sake of video immortality? :D

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Post by Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh » Apr 08, 2007 8:49 am

Yes, on the (flaschinder)nose exactly :!:
Kick down the barricades Listen what the kids say.
From time to time people change their minds But the Frock is here to stay.
I've seen it all from the bottom to the top Everywhere I go the kids wanna Frock.
Around the world or around the block Everywhere I go the kids wanna Frock.

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Post by knoxie » Apr 08, 2007 9:04 am

Yo

Again guys I have to disagree evercell batteries old old old news, we want to be looking forward not back, I appreciate some people may not have heard about all this but it is largely irrelevant considering Randy s location and his totally unique one off bike.

He barks on about efficiency all the time whilst riding the most inefficient machine I have seen next to a milk float, sloppy old bouncy rear suspension, upright handle bars so he makes like a sail in the wind, its crazy.

Just ask Randy what he thinks about hub motors what he really thinks, I am not sure if there is a word for a hub motor hater? but he certainly does, strange isnt it as it seems to be one of the most popular forms of conversion.

what's the point in having this self proclaimed high efficiency rig in 80 dollar walmart bike.

You hang around long enough and Randy will get right up your nose, just ask some of the regulars from power assist. :roll:

Knoxie

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Post by TylerDurden » Apr 08, 2007 9:47 am

Randy's bike has merit; historically, if nothing else. I don't find his bike any more impractical than Safe's or Matt's. It performs well enough, but has room for improvements like any bike.


What is key here, is that Randy's bike does have merit, but it doesn't do anybody much good.

Matt's bike illustrates how anybody can do the same thing.

Swordman's bike illustrates how anybody can do the same thing.

Safe's bike illustrates how anybody can do the same thing.

Jondoh's bike illustrates how anybody can do the same thing.

Knoxie's, Xyster's, Reid's, GeeBee's, Maytag's, Bob's, etc., etc., etc....

The risk of keeping secrets, is that you get stuck in a rut. The rest of the world moves forward regardless of your ideas that sit locked in a garage, when public disclosure could challenge them and make them better. That is the essence of patents: public disclosure. That is also the essence of Open-Source.

So let the talkers talk, and the teachers teach. The difference being, that the teachers are also learners; and grow thereby.
Have a Nice Day,

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Post by Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh » Apr 08, 2007 11:17 am

Whatever

became of the $5000 challenge?
Kick down the barricades Listen what the kids say.
From time to time people change their minds But the Frock is here to stay.
I've seen it all from the bottom to the top Everywhere I go the kids wanna Frock.
Around the world or around the block Everywhere I go the kids wanna Frock.

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Post by EbikeMaui » Apr 08, 2007 2:50 pm

Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh wrote:Whatever

became of the $5000 challenge?
What ever happend to Optibikes Challange? or Optibike?
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Post by Lowell » Apr 08, 2007 3:06 pm

I doubt many people are ready to fork over $5500 for a lame 400W bike, or $8000 for the 600W model. Nobody would ride that because it's practical or saves money.

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Post by EbikeMaui » Apr 08, 2007 3:28 pm

knoxie wrote:Yo

Again guys I have to disagree evercell batteries old old old news, we want to be looking forward not back, I appreciate some people may not have heard about all this but it is largely irrelevant considering Randy s location and his totally unique one off bike.

He barks on about efficiency all the time whilst riding the most inefficient machine I have seen next to a milk float, sloppy old bouncy rear suspension, upright handle bars so he makes like a sail in the wind, its crazy.

Just ask Randy what he thinks about hub motors what he really thinks, I am not sure if there is a word for a hub motor hater? but he certainly does, strange isnt it as it seems to be one of the most popular forms of conversion.

what's the point in having this self proclaimed high efficiency rig in 80 dollar walmart bike.

You hang around long enough and Randy will get right up your nose, just ask some of the regulars from power assist. :roll:

Knoxie
If hub motors are not efficient under a load at slow bicycle speeds 5 to 15 mph on grades or against the wind what good are they for using them for Hawaiian rentals, tours or for residents to use? We have trade winds every day hills everywhere!
........................

I tried the hill at Hillway again this morning. as I turned into the hill at 16mph and hit full throttle, the bike slowly went down to 8mph. I notice
my batteries sag down from 51v to 35v on the hill. my battery pack consist of 4 9a/h sla's connected to a single 36v sla evglobal battery. the voltmeter is only connected to the 48v pack. I couldn't get more speed going into the hill because the street leading to the hill is somewhat narrow and has railway tracks. Better batteries and more amps would indeed help. One good thing to note is that the x5 doesn't overheat under these type of loads. The Heinzmann motor with me helping would overheat half way up a hill like this.
http://tinyurl.com/2hxlnl
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http://tinyurl.com/yj4jv6
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Post by Lowell » Apr 08, 2007 3:38 pm

9Ah SLA batteries are not a good match for an X5 hub. In fact they're not much good for anything hillclimb related... :roll:

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