New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

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eyebyesickle   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Sep 17 2017 9:04pm

48v = 4000rpm motor
52v = 4500rpm motor

RICKY BOBBY :lol:

http://recycles-ebike.com/tsdz-series/1 ... brake.html
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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by ScooterMan101 » Sep 18 2017 12:36am

@ Eye, ... Does this mean the 52 volt / 4500 rpm one will run with a fully charged 14 s battery pack ? ( 14 s pack fully charged/almost fully charged is just under 59 volts )

or was that some earlier versions of it , that others here on E.S. said did not work with their 14s pack ?

Would like to see a version of this little motor that will run good on a 16 s pack as well.

Thanks
Last edited by ScooterMan101 on Sep 18 2017 1:14pm, edited 1 time in total.
My first conversion ... Sold

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=71378&p=1077497&hil ... 1#p1077497

It's 2018 already, ( now 2019 ) lets get some real , improved e-bike / e-velomobile / e-motorcycle designs .

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by jdg239 » Sep 18 2017 2:04am

I've had my 500W 48V Tongsheng TSDZ2 middrive motor for about a month now on my Catrike Expedition. I absolutely love it, and don't regret for a second that I left the throttle- and cadence-based motors behind. Yes the other motors have more power (750W or 1000W), but I've owned electric bikes since 2002, and have always insisted on a true pedelec/pedal assist motors that employ the pedal torque sensor--the motor is only engaged by applying pressure to the pedals.

For me, I'm not looking for an electric motorcycle when I get a electric bike. I still want to pedal and get a slight workout on my daily commute, but don't want to arrive at work all sweaty in my business suit. I want the motor to take the edge off the hills, and help me go fast enough to stay in the flow of slow traffic, and get off the starting line at a stop light when it goes green. The torque sensor seems to have maybe 2 levels--I'm not sure it is truly variable, i.e. the harder you push the more power it gives, but it does seem to give a different amount of power when pushing harder than when I push lightly.

This motor has been so much fun and the 500W are more than sufficient for me. At the "turbo" setting, I simply get too much assist and rarely use that power setting....unless I wanna blow past a guy on a road bike for fun. The Tongsheng is small and quiet--much quieter than my last electric bike which everyone knew had a motor when I rode past with that tell-tale electric motor "whish" sound with each pedal stroke.

I got my motor kit off of Aliexpress.com from Eunorau. It arrived in less than a week (from China!) Total cost with shipping $350.55 USD. It took 30 minutes to install, and I've never done a DIY electric bike before. I did have to cut and extend the speed sensor cable because the trike wheels are a longer distance from the motor than on a regular 2 wheel bike. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/48V5...311.0.0.M28Q7g. I ordered a 11Ah 48volt naked battery from China too with shipping for $208 USD.

I love torque sensor based pedal assist! It makes me feel like a bionic man. Honestly, I don't think the throttle variety motors are for lazy people, but philosophically, I want my bike (electric or not) to be powered chiefly by the pressure I apply to the pedals.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Sep 18 2017 11:23am

For those who may be math-challenged, if the new 52v units, with their 4500 RPM top speed, have the same internal reduction gearing as the earlier units (a safe bet), then that means the power assistance will drop off at just over 100 pedal RPM...

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Tonester » Sep 18 2017 10:16pm

First of all, I am new to this forum and have learned so much from all of you after reading EVERY page of this thread! It's taken quite a while but well worth the read. Many thanks to all the frequent posters (Eyebyesickle, Squee, RTII, Daytriker, etc) here for sharing their knowledge and enthusiasm for this very capable motor!

I'm planning to purchase 2 motors. I'll first install one on my wife's Trek hybrid bike with 700c wheels using the XH18 color display. She just wants a little assist for when she's tired or for uphill riding. Secondly (if I like the motor), I want to install one on my ICE Sprint trike using the VLCD5 display. I'm fairly sure I'll go for the 48V / 500W motor for the trike, but I'm not sure about what to get for her bike. In both cases, we will not use throttle, just pedal assist.

Should I:
- Save a few bucks and get her the 350W with smaller battery (8Ah) since she likely won't need 500W of power. She'll be going no more than 30 miles at a time mostly flat just a couple hills.
- Or spend a few extra bucks to get her the same system I will have with 11Ah battery in hopes of having more consistent builds between the two.

My concern is that she's never ridden an e-bike (age: early 50's) and I'm wondering if the 500W might scare her more than the 350W motor? Do you think the 500W will provide more torque (assist) at each of the levels than the 350W? Or will the torque simply be proportional to pedal effort regardless of voltage? She'll likely ride on level 1 most of the time with the occasional boost going up hills.

Another reason I might want the same motor for her is if she doesn't like the motor, I can then just move it over to my trike and be done with it. Battery mounts will likely be different, so it's not really a benefit to swap batteries between them (unless I find a clever way to use the same battery mount).

Can we share the same charger if I opt for 36V for her?

Thoughts on pros/cons of these choices? Thank you!

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Sep 18 2017 11:24pm

Tonester wrote:First of all, I am new to this forum and have learned so much from all of you after reading EVERY page of this thread! It's taken quite a while but well worth the read. Many thanks to all the frequent posters (Eyebyesickle, Squee, RTII, Daytriker, etc) here for sharing their knowledge and enthusiasm for this very capable motor!

I'm planning to purchase 2 motors. I'll first install one on my wife's Trek hybrid bike with 700c wheels using the XH18 color display. She just wants a little assist for when she's tired or for uphill riding. Secondly (if I like the motor), I want to install one on my ICE Sprint trike using the VLCD5 display. I'm fairly sure I'll go for the 48V / 500W motor for the trike, but I'm not sure about what to get for her bike. In both cases, we will not use throttle, just pedal assist.

Should I:
- Save a few bucks and get her the 350W with smaller battery (8Ah) since she likely won't need 500W of power. She'll be going no more than 30 miles at a time mostly flat just a couple hills.
- Or spend a few extra bucks to get her the same system I will have with 11Ah battery in hopes of having more consistent builds between the two.

My concern is that she's never ridden an e-bike (age: early 50's) and I'm wondering if the 500W might scare her more than the 350W motor? Do you think the 500W will provide more torque (assist) at each of the levels than the 350W? Or will the torque simply be proportional to pedal effort regardless of voltage? She'll likely ride on level 1 most of the time with the occasional boost going up hills.

Another reason I might want the same motor for her is if she doesn't like the motor, I can then just move it over to my trike and be done with it. Battery mounts will likely be different, so it's not really a benefit to swap batteries between them (unless I find a clever way to use the same battery mount).

Can we share the same charger if I opt for 36V for her?

Thoughts on pros/cons of these choices? Thank you!
Hi,

I think that I would want my significant other to have more power than me (granted not high power dangerous overkill) so we would go the same pace (I'm a racehorse until I fall over, then I'm still a racehorse)... but that is just my preferences (and ego)

... if you go 48v and it is too much power, you don't have to turn up the assist all the way, but have the option... with the 36v, you can tone it down as well, but obviously you couldn't increase the power, so you would be 'stuck' with it if not happy.

I will be honest, I have not done the range tests with these lower power models, but I know a customer just reported over 20 miles on the 8ah... however, this still may be cutting it a little close...

The 36v and 48v CANNOT use the same charger - FYI!. 36v li-on batteries charge to 42v max, and the 48v batteries charge to 54.6v max, so the charger are not interchangeable.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by amberwolf » Sep 18 2017 11:47pm

eyebyesickle wrote:The 36v and 48v CANNOT use the same charger - FYI!. 36v li-on batteries charge to 42v max, and the 48v batteries charge to 54.6v max, so the charger are not interchangeable.
They are if you use a Cycle Satiator. ;)

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Daytriker » Sep 19 2017 12:31am

Tonester, I can only speak from the 350/36 volt as I haven't ever used the 500/48 version of the TSDZ2 but since you don't have any major hills in your riding area I don't think you have the need for the extra weight. Extra weight will change your riding, braking & handling so keeping the weight as low as possible keeps both your cycles operating closer to their non-assisted state. It may not make a big difference but just may not be necessary. Kind of like having a V8 when a V6 will do just as well.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Waynemarlow » Sep 19 2017 5:30am

My wife who is not a regular mtb rider likes the 500W on power setting 2 or 3 so you may well find the 350W could be a bit underwhelming.

I get about 20 miles of off road on a 6.6 amps 48V battery, but we have a lot of hills and can regularly do 3000ft of climb in that 20 miles. I reckon on converting average kph to mph from being on a non ebike to one with assist.

Do take into account that the drag on the road is a lot less than off road so you may need to adjust your thinking a little depending on your requirements.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by atomohodez » Sep 19 2017 7:26am

eyebyesickle, Bare Controller with Connectors for TSDZ2 TONGSHENG MID DRIVE MOTOR

will you have on sale this controller separately for 52v 18A?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Sep 19 2017 7:35am

atomohodez wrote:eyebyesickle, Bare Controller with Connectors for TSDZ2 TONGSHENG MID DRIVE MOTOR

will you have on sale this controller separately for 52v 18A?
No, sorry. Since we have an exclusive on this model, we cannot just sell the controller for a while =\

Business =\

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Sep 19 2017 11:19am

Tonester wrote:First of all, I am new to this forum and have learned so much from all of you after reading EVERY page of this thread! It's taken quite a while but well worth the read. Many thanks to all the frequent posters (Eyebyesickle, Squee, RTII, Daytriker, etc) here for sharing their knowledge and enthusiasm for this very capable motor!
Thanks for the thanks. When I first got here in late May, it was only some 350-ish comments and 16 pages, now it's positively HUGE; to read all that is a monster of a task, and kind of amazing! ... FWIW, I post as much as I have not only out of enthusiasm but also because of a desire to "pay it forward". So many helped me and I want to help in return...
Tonester wrote:I'm planning to purchase 2 motors. I'll first install one on my wife's Trek hybrid bike with 700c wheels using the XH18 color display. She just wants a little assist for when she's tired or for uphill riding. Secondly (if I like the motor), I want to install one on my ICE Sprint trike using the VLCD5 display. I'm fairly sure I'll go for the 48V / 500W motor for the trike, but I'm not sure about what to get for her bike. In both cases, we will not use throttle, just pedal assist.
When I got my first unit (I have two now), I wanted the throttle not to use it all the time but in case I got injured as my car is out of service for a long-term repair job (it's going to take at least half a year if not more), and so my bike is my primary transportation, and you never know. ... SO... just know you cannot add the throttle after the fact! Stupid, but true. And in my case, I was prescient because I did end up getting injured and needed a throttle - and have used it now a few times when otherwise I'd have been stranded.
Tonester wrote:Should I:
- Save a few bucks and get her the 350W with smaller battery (8Ah) since she likely won't need 500W of power. She'll be going no more than 30 miles at a time mostly flat just a couple hills.
- Or spend a few extra bucks to get her the same system I will have with 11Ah battery in hopes of having more consistent builds between the two.

My concern is that she's never ridden an e-bike (age: early 50's) and I'm wondering if the 500W might scare her more than the 350W motor? Do you think the 500W will provide more torque (assist) at each of the levels than the 350W? Or will the torque simply be proportional to pedal effort regardless of voltage? She'll likely ride on level 1 most of the time with the occasional boost going up hills.
The power comes on so smoothly that I'd say there's zero chance of "scaring" her and the obvious choice is go for the higher power level. As you yourself propose, the torque added is proportional to pedal effort, so it comes on very smoothly, and in eco mode you may only even barely realize it's there until the moment if for some reason it should turn off (as I had happen to me with a bad battery), especially if on a hill. Having boost available you don't use is way better than needing and wishing you had the boost you don't have. Overall, it's not that expensive of a difference.
Tonester wrote:Another reason I might want the same motor for her is if she doesn't like the motor, I can then just move it over to my trike and be done with it. Battery mounts will likely be different, so it's not really a benefit to swap batteries between them (unless I find a clever way to use the same battery mount).
It's probably worth finding a way to use an identical battery mount.
Tonester wrote:Can we share the same charger if I opt for 36V for her?
As was already pointed out, the cycle satiator will definitely do multiple voltages - and even multiple chemistries - of battery. I think it would be worth looking up my rather long-winded comments on battery charging voltages and how MOST chargers are stupid and will either over or under-charge your battery. These so called "80%" and "90%" switches that some chargers have is merely a work-around for the fact that the charger isn't really paying attention to your battery very accurately and isn't designed to charge them correctly. Further - and, indeed, a driving factor of the stupid-charger situation - is that even within the same basic chemistry, different brand cells have different charging and discharging characteristics and have different optimal charging regimes. So, a vendor makes one "dumb" charger that's "close enough" and then, the better dumb ones give you a switch to charge to a lower level.... The Cycle Satiator steps over all that with a truly intelligent charger. ... I intend to stay (for the time being at least) at 48V with lithium ion technology, but it's nice to know I can accommodate whatever else in the future.

Also, batteries degrade significantly with time, so buy a battery of at least double what you think your estimated range need would be, tripple is even better because estimates don't take into account all the real-world situations you can find yourself in. ... and then you won't be looking to buy a new battery in a year and a half or two. Sure, the battery will have degraded significantly, but it'll still be more than you actually need, yielding a lot more service life. And given how the sunk-cost of shipping is such a large fraction of the battery's cost, going with a larger battery is the more economical route. The only down side is you have to lug it around, but that's largely overcome by the fact that you have electric-assist, so weight is not the same penalty on an e-bike as it is on a non-assisted bike!

Best of luck.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by tomjasz » Sep 19 2017 12:00pm

amberwolf wrote:
eyebyesickle wrote:The 36v and 48v CANNOT use the same charger - FYI!. 36v li-on batteries charge to 42v max, and the 48v batteries charge to 54.6v max, so the charger are not interchangeable.
They are if you use a Cycle Satiator. ;)
Best purchase I made in eBike gear. One charger for my 36V, 48V, and 52V batteries. Also I can choose any percentage of charge level for all and change the charge rate to the max allowed by the BMS. Doubling battery life is another high point of the Satiator!
Thanks Justin_le we're here thanks to you. All the best to the mods for their tireless work keeping it on an even keel.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Sep 19 2017 4:18pm

amberwolf wrote:
eyebyesickle wrote:The 36v and 48v CANNOT use the same charger - FYI!. 36v li-on batteries charge to 42v max, and the 48v batteries charge to 54.6v max, so the charger are not interchangeable.
They are if you use a Cycle Satiator. ;)
KILLED IT =P

:lol:

:mrgreen:

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Tonester » Sep 20 2017 9:38pm

Tonester wrote:First of all, I am new to this forum and have learned so much from all of you after reading EVERY page of this thread! It's taken quite a while but well worth the read. Many thanks to all the frequent posters (Eyebyesickle, Squee, RTII, Daytriker, etc) here for sharing their knowledge and enthusiasm for this very capable motor!

I'm planning to purchase 2 motors. I'll first install one on my wife's Trek hybrid bike with 700c wheels using the XH18 color display. She just wants a little assist for when she's tired or for uphill riding. Secondly (if I like the motor), I want to install one on my ICE Sprint trike using the VLCD5 display. I'm fairly sure I'll go for the 48V / 500W motor for the trike, but I'm not sure about what to get for her bike. In both cases, we will not use throttle, just pedal assist.

Should I:
- Save a few bucks and get her the 350W with smaller battery (8Ah) since she likely won't need 500W of power. She'll be going no more than 30 miles at a time mostly flat just a couple hills.
- Or spend a few extra bucks to get her the same system I will have with 11Ah battery in hopes of having more consistent builds between the two.

My concern is that she's never ridden an e-bike (age: early 50's) and I'm wondering if the 500W might scare her more than the 350W motor? Do you think the 500W will provide more torque (assist) at each of the levels than the 350W? Or will the torque simply be proportional to pedal effort regardless of voltage? She'll likely ride on level 1 most of the time with the occasional boost going up hills.

Another reason I might want the same motor for her is if she doesn't like the motor, I can then just move it over to my trike and be done with it. Battery mounts will likely be different, so it's not really a benefit to swap batteries between them (unless I find a clever way to use the same battery mount).

Can we share the same charger if I opt for 36V for her?

Thoughts on pros/cons of these choices? Thank you!
Thanks for all the thoughtful replies!

@eye - agreed that it's best for her to have enough power to never chance running out, I'm with you. I neglected to mention that I'll mostly be riding a regular non-assisted bike, and occasionally the trike. Like you, I wanted to get after it on the bike, but she couldn't keep up. So that inspired the idea of the pedal assist. Mostly, I was thinking that Level 1 on the 48V might be more than she wants and level 1 on the 36V would be a way to start slower. Hearing the comments, I may be overblowing that thought a bit... Regarding the charger, I do remember reading about the Cycle Satiator (thx @amberwolf), but didn't know if there were other chargers that work the same way; seems the answer is NO. I likely won't get this expensive CS charger, so one more good reason to stick with 48V for both.

@Daytriker - You're thinking along the lines of what I was; don't get more motor than you need. Since I think both motors weigh about the same, we're just talking about battery weight which would be 4 or 5 lbs at the low end and around 8 at the higher end; I'm thinking not enough difference to justify going smaller and risking running out of juice someday. Let me know if my assumption on weight is incorrect. Yes, planning to keep the weight as low as possible, thanx.

@Waynemarlow - good info you provided on your wife's experience and your mileage/usage! Sounds like Level 2 or 3 is not going to be overwhelming for her and if it is, we still have Level 1.

@RTIII (missed an "I" first time :lol: ) - Yeah it was a long read (admit I skimmed some of it) and if I read it again, I'd get more out of it. I think I'll stand this time... :-) Glad to see you guys pay it forward and hoping I'll have the chance! Good point on the throttle! I'm hoping to get the throttle version (8-pin) for my trike, but not hook it up until I think I need it. Plenty of people here regretting not waiting for the throttle, so I don't want to look back and kick myself. Does anyone know if you can simply leave the throttle disconnected on the throttle version? Good to hear you feel the 48V won't scare her. True that the $ are not much different between the two and I'm leaning toward the 48V for that and all the other reasons. I'm gonna try to use the same mount, but it may be difficult since a dolphin or bottle battery may not work well on the trike; we'll see... Good point that any extra weight of the battery is mostly offset by the motor assist.

Again, thanks all for the great advice! One of these days, I'll learn how to do one of those fancy multi-quote replies like RT! :D

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor" 52V Battery

Post by itchyfoot42 » Sep 20 2017 9:58pm

The 52V battery is a poor choice for the 15A version of the TDSZ2. Assuming the max charge for each cell to be 4.2V and the performance cliff voltage to be 3.35 a 13 cell 48V battery will have a fully charged voltage of 56.6. Full charge on my 52V battery is 58.8, BUT my 15A TDSZ2 will not start until discharged to about 55.5. On one occasion I got a start at 56V, but haven't been able to replicate that. The killer is that while both start at 55-56V, low voltage (out of usable power) is 46.9V for the 52V battery while it is 43.55 for the 48V battery. The 48V battery can be drawn down 13.5 volts, while my 52V battery can only be drawn down 8.7 volts, ALMOST 30% LESS!

I'm not an EE, so may not understand the impact of these numbers correctly, but it looks like my early adoption based on the then tribal wisdom that all 48volt motors should work on 52V has really reduced my range by 30%. I'm also assuming that a fully charged 48V battery at 56.6V actually starts the 48V TDSZ2.

Fortunately my LUNA 52V charger at 80% charges my battery to 55.5 to 55.7 volts. I have a 4 mile loop that has a 10% grade for a thousand feet. With level 4 I can pull 14+ amps and 720 Watts from my motor on the first loop. The second max Watts drops to 660 and the third loop I'm down to 620. Not sure if it's the battery voltage dropping (I'm still over 51V) or the legs. I think the torque sensor has a good bit of “slop” as just riding along with no discernable change of effort, I will get a difference of 200 watts on my meter.

I have the small XH-18 display/controller. Not sure if it actually has any “control” function other than to send the level setting to the controller in the motor. If I let it set inactive for 5 minutes it shuts off and will only reactivate with a battery switch recycle.

If range proves inadequate for my riding it appears to be less expensive to upgrade the motor than change batteries. As the 18A version “eye” is importing is only a software change I want to see how it survives, particularly the blue gear, pulling 18A and up to 1000 watts. My motor doesn't get hot so should survive, but the blue gear may not handle the inevitable abuse.

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by RTIII » Sep 21 2017 10:56am

Tonester wrote:Mostly, I was thinking that Level 1 on the 48V might be more than she wants and level 1 on the 36V would be a way to start slower. Hearing the comments, I may be overblowing that thought a bit...
Yes, and you're leaving out a key factor in the voltage decision: the higher the voltage, the more efficient and also the smaller the wire diameter can be for equivalent losses to resistance. This is one of the reasons Tongsheng can bump the voltage, first from 36 to 48, and now to 52 with basically the exact same unit; the wire diameter requirement actually goes down, thus making room in the assembly. This means more power from less weight. The only real tradeoff here is the number of cells required to make a "stack" of the higher voltage because this is the key multiplier in battery bulk and weight. (At some point, there's yet another trade-off for safety. At around 50, it's still relatively safe. Get it up much over that, certainly before 100V and there's real risk to anyone who handles the battery, should they get unlucky and become a part of a circuit.)
Tonester wrote:Regarding the charger, I do remember reading about the Cycle Satiator (thx @amberwolf), but didn't know if there were other chargers that work the same way; seems the answer is NO. I likely won't get this expensive CS charger, so one more good reason to stick with 48V for both.
I can't say the Cycle Satiator is the only one like it, but it's certainly the only one I found after some hours of searching. If NOT going for the Satiator, then get one that has two "lower" settings, typically sold as "80%" and "90%". I recommend this because it'll give you some flexibility and better battery longevity. ... Somewhere here on ES, I published links to the data sheets for several of the cells and pointed out some of the differences, especially in charging requirements (but also discharge - more on that in a second). If you don't get a Satiator, second best is to be able to look up YOUR cell type's requirements and then flick the switch to the appropriate charge voltage of your "dumb charger." It's also good to know that for ALL batteries of which I'm aware, and the more discharged, the more important this is, that the charge start slowly for the first bit, then increase, and under all conditions the charge should be tapered off. With a "dumb" charger, simulate this by manually flicking those switches. For example, you're 40% depleted, so start at 80% and after 10 minutes or so, flick it to 90%, then later to full charge rate for however long you estimate, then flick the switch down again to 90, or even 80%. ... Your final charge voltage you want will depend on many things, but these batteries DO NOT like to be over-charged! Unlike a "wet cell" or "flooded" battery, they can't out-gas, so instead the chemistry just gets screwed up and they die an early death.
Tonester wrote:@Daytriker - You're thinking along the lines of what I was; don't get more motor than you need. Since I think both motors weigh about the same, we're just talking about battery weight which would be 4 or 5 lbs at the low end and around 8 at the higher end; I'm thinking not enough difference to justify going smaller and risking running out of juice someday. Let me know if my assumption on weight is incorrect.
Yes, you're correct.
Tonester wrote:@Waynemarlow - good info you provided on your wife's experience and your mileage/usage! Sounds like Level 2 or 3 is not going to be overwhelming for her and if it is, we still have Level 1.
The opposite: She's going to love the options! (Yes, I don't know her, but I don't want a moped that looks like a bike either...)
Tonester wrote:@RTIII Good point on the throttle! I'm hoping to get the throttle version (8-pin) for my trike, but not hook it up until I think I need it. Plenty of people here regretting not waiting for the throttle, so I don't want to look back and kick myself. Does anyone know if you can simply leave the throttle disconnected on the throttle version?
Yes, you can leave it disconnected OR connected. It won't do anything if it's off. You can ride normally and get assistance with the throttle hooked up but while NOT using the throttle... It's an either / and situation. So, hook it up and just ignore it until you want it! :D
Tonester wrote:Good to hear you feel the 48V won't scare her. True that the $ are not much different between the two and I'm leaning toward the 48V for that and all the other reasons. I'm gonna try to use the same mount, but it may be difficult since a dolphin or bottle battery may not work well on the trike; we'll see... Good point that any extra weight of the battery is mostly offset by the motor assist.
You can get creative on the mount! There's a thread here on ES devoted to home-made mounts, and while you may not want to make your own, it shows literally hundreds of different ways to mount batteries... For your typical Shark or Dolphin mounts, they can go on the top tube, seat tube OR down tube, OR on a front or rear mounted cargo rack! And, you don't necessarily have to modify the frame any. Take a look at my Legran's solution - no mods and mounted to the seat tube:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=88943

Page 2 has a lot of photos of it, but I don't recall if somewhere I did a close-up. I used a simple bit of flat bar stock, 1/2" wide, 1/8" thick, bent it to transit down the seat tube and up the bottom tube some, and clamped it to the frame with simple hose clamps. Paint damage is avoided with just some black tape where the clamps go... On my San Rafael, I mounted the same battery mounting system to the rear cargo rack - photos aplenty here (and again Page 2 likely has what you want):

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=89956
Tonester wrote:Again, thanks all for the great advice! One of these days, I'll learn how to do one of those fancy multi-quote replies like RT! :D
It's easy! Just note how the quote block begins with a quote="somebody" and ends with a slash quote delimiter. You can either type these two begin / end markers or copy and paste them - your choice.

RTIII   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor" 52V Battery

Post by RTIII » Sep 21 2017 11:32am

itchyfoot42 wrote:The 52V battery is a poor choice for the 15A version of the TDSZ2.
...A little more accurately: a 52v battery is a poor match to the Tongsheng 48v units.

Tongsheng has programmed in some voltage limits to their kits. (I understand from second hand sources this is not typical of the market.)
itchyfoot42 wrote:Assuming the max charge for each cell to be 4.2V and the performance cliff voltage to be 3.35 a 13 cell 48V battery will have a fully charged voltage of 56.6. Full charge on my 52V battery is 58.8, BUT my 15A TDSZ2 will not start until discharged to about 55.5. On one occasion I got a start at 56V, but haven't been able to replicate that. The killer is that while both start at 55-56V, low voltage (out of usable power) is 46.9V for the 52V battery while it is 43.55 for the 48V battery. The 48V battery can be drawn down 13.5 volts, while my 52V battery can only be drawn down 8.7 volts, ALMOST 30% LESS!

I'm not an EE, so may not understand the impact of these numbers correctly, but it looks like my early adoption based on the then tribal wisdom that all 48volt motors should work on 52V has really reduced my range by 30%. I'm also assuming that a fully charged 48V battery at 56.6V actually starts the 48V TDSZ2.
Yes, unfortunately, it DOES look as though you've shortened your pack's useful range in this scenario. But on the other hand, while your "out of usable power" may well be correct for YOUR specific pack, it turns out that of the variety of 18650 cells out there, they have a wide variety of "out of usable power" voltage levels. The NOMINAL voltage of your pack is actually 50.4, and the typical "official" "time to recharge" voltage, as per manufacturer specifications, is 39.2v, a good bit below your 46.9, so you're leaving range "on the table."

Back when I was still deciding what I was going to do, I investigated many cell types and I created this chart to help me decide which cell type to buy:

http://ScienceTools.com/misc/EbikeBatteryCalculator.xls

Note that 4.2v per cell is the typical peak charge voltage AND the "float voltage" but will quickly dissipate. In the chart I provided here, it shows the various voltages of various packs. One of the more interesting things to note is that MOST of the cells specification sheets show the recharge point is 2.8 v per cell while the LG MJ1 claims it's 2.5v, while at the same time that particular cell is the leader in storage claims at 3.5 Ah, while most are 3 Ah or below. BUT AT THE SAME TIME, if there's a low voltage cut-off on the bike's controller - as there often is and as there is on the Tongsheng TSDZ2, this means you're buying storage you can never use because the controller stops you! ... This is good for battery longevity, but bad for your range plans!

Also note that on that chart, the second row of amp-hours per cell type shows the PRUDENT amount of storage you get. So, for example, the GA type may have 3.45 Ah but if you want the pack to live, you'd better not count on using all that, and instead use the second number I provide, 2.76 Ah (per cell stack). ... You can rework my calculator to show YOUR decision points instead of mine, like how low is too low, etc. And, I myself had several versions of this spreadsheet I was using...
itchyfoot42 wrote:I think the torque sensor has a good bit of “slop” as just riding along with no discernable change of effort, I will get a difference of 200 watts on my meter.
More likely is that its power use is transient along with your pedaling and it's a matter of sample timing; sometimes the sampling catches a load peak, and other times it doesn't. Digital devices are well known for this which is why in industrial settings several gauges are used which help capture and characterize transient effects better.
itchyfoot42 wrote:I have the small XH-18 display/controller. Not sure if it actually has any “control” function other than to send the level setting to the controller in the motor. If I let it set inactive for 5 minutes it shuts off and will only reactivate with a battery switch recycle.
This has been reported for a LONG time way upthread here and which is also why I'm a big VLCD-5 fan instead of the XH-18.
itchyfoot42 wrote:If range proves inadequate for my riding it appears to be less expensive to upgrade the motor than change batteries. As the 18A version “eye” is importing is only a software change I want to see how it survives, particularly the blue gear, pulling 18A and up to 1000 watts. My motor doesn't get hot so should survive, but the blue gear may not handle the inevitable abuse.
Yes, BUT do note that the new 52v version doesn't have any official amp rating at present. Look carefully at those images Eye posted!

Tonester   100 µW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Tonester » Sep 21 2017 1:02pm

RTIII wrote:
Tonester wrote:Mostly, I was thinking that Level 1 on the 48V might be more than she wants and level 1 on the 36V would be a way to start slower. Hearing the comments, I may be overblowing that thought a bit...
Yes, and you're leaving out a key factor in the voltage decision: the higher the voltage, the more efficient and also the smaller the wire diameter can be for equivalent losses to resistance. This is one of the reasons Tongsheng can bump the voltage, first from 36 to 48, and now to 52 with basically the exact same unit; the wire diameter requirement actually goes down, thus making room in the assembly. This means more power from less weight. The only real tradeoff here is the number of cells required to make a "stack" of the higher voltage because this is the key multiplier in battery bulk and weight. (At some point, there's yet another trade-off for safety. At around 50, it's still relatively safe. Get it up much over that, certainly before 100V and there's real risk to anyone who handles the battery, should they get unlucky and become a part of a circuit.)

I can't say the Cycle Satiator is the only one like it, but it's certainly the only one I found after some hours of searching. If NOT going for the Satiator, then get one that has two "lower" settings, typically sold as "80%" and "90%". I recommend this because it'll give you some flexibility and better battery longevity. ... Somewhere here on ES, I published links to the data sheets for several of the cells and pointed out some of the differences, especially in charging requirements (but also discharge - more on that in a second). If you don't get a Satiator, second best is to be able to look up YOUR cell type's requirements and then flick the switch to the appropriate charge voltage of your "dumb charger." It's also good to know that for ALL batteries of which I'm aware, and the more discharged, the more important this is, that the charge start slowly for the first bit, then increase, and under all conditions the charge should be tapered off. With a "dumb" charger, simulate this by manually flicking those switches. For example, you're 40% depleted, so start at 80% and after 10 minutes or so, flick it to 90%, then later to full charge rate for however long you estimate, then flick the switch down again to 90, or even 80%. ... Your final charge voltage you want will depend on many things, but these batteries DO NOT like to be over-charged! Unlike a "wet cell" or "flooded" battery, they can't out-gas, so instead the chemistry just gets screwed up and they die an early death.
Tonester wrote:@RTIII Good point on the throttle! I'm hoping to get the throttle version (8-pin) for my trike, but not hook it up until I think I need it. Plenty of people here regretting not waiting for the throttle, so I don't want to look back and kick myself. Does anyone know if you can simply leave the throttle disconnected on the throttle version?
Yes, you can leave it disconnected OR connected. It won't do anything if it's off. You can ride normally and get assistance with the throttle hooked up but while NOT using the throttle... It's an either / and situation. So, hook it up and just ignore it until you want it! :D
Tonester wrote:Good to hear you feel the 48V won't scare her. True that the $ are not much different between the two and I'm leaning toward the 48V for that and all the other reasons. I'm gonna try to use the same mount, but it may be difficult since a dolphin or bottle battery may not work well on the trike; we'll see... Good point that any extra weight of the battery is mostly offset by the motor assist.
You can get creative on the mount! There's a thread here on ES devoted to home-made mounts, and while you may not want to make your own, it shows literally hundreds of different ways to mount batteries... For your typical Shark or Dolphin mounts, they can go on the top tube, seat tube OR down tube, OR on a front or rear mounted cargo rack! And, you don't necessarily have to modify the frame any. Take a look at my Legran's solution - no mods and mounted to the seat tube:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=88943

Page 2 has a lot of photos of it, but I don't recall if somewhere I did a close-up. I used a simple bit of flat bar stock, 1/2" wide, 1/8" thick, bent it to transit down the seat tube and up the bottom tube some, and clamped it to the frame with simple hose clamps. Paint damage is avoided with just some black tape where the clamps go... On my San Rafael, I mounted the same battery mounting system to the rear cargo rack - photos aplenty here (and again Page 2 likely has what you want):

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =3&t=89956
Good point about thinner wires needed for higher voltage. I know the latest motor by "eye" is 52V ready (max near 60V), but I don't think I want to be the beta tester only to find other unknown issues AND a 52V battery is likely to be more expensive and less available. So I think I'll go mainstream with 48V and either 15 or 18A motor.

Regarding getting a similar battery mount, I am likely going to use a downtube mount for the bike, but not sure I can use any downtube style battery on the ICE Sprint trike. So that is where I'm having difficulty deciding where to place it and if I can possibly use the same mount/battery. Thinking either behind the seat or better yet low on the frame; still investigating that. And it needs to look decent too, so I may just have to opt for two different batteries for bike and trike (both 48V, but different packages).

Hmm... a charger that will do different voltages via switches. I'll have to shop that feature. If less than a hundy, I may bite.

Ahh! Throttle is complementary (either/or), not an overriding feature, good! I was hoping that having the throttle connected wouldn't disable pedal assist mode; makes sense, thanx for confirming. You've been busy documenting RT! thanks for the links, big help!

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eyebyesickle   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Sep 21 2017 4:00pm

Yeah, we didn't put any AMP rating on the motor regarding the max legal 750w in USA, which is where I really got these for...

I think we are going to get 52v750w printed on them in the future...

FYI same hardware as 48v18a, just programmed different

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Tonester » Sep 21 2017 4:15pm

I'm seeing Pswpower has the kit listed with optional 500W or 750W motor. Both show 48V and 18A with throttle. Anyone know what the actual difference may be between these? Thinking maybe the 750W is actually a 52V motor and that's how they get the watts by pairing with a 52V battery?

Both are the same price too! I also emailed them, but more likely to get a better response here. Thanks!

http://www.pswpower.com/peng/iview.asp? ... J7M8.3RWNA

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by qwerkus » Sep 22 2017 1:55pm

Hi guys; just read through the 46 pages (more or less) and am interested in this mid drive for my next setup (once the money is available). I'd go for the 48V / 500W version. Don't want to climb the swiss alps - just help me hauling my trailer.

Though the one thing still bothering me is the apparent noise: while a lot of users notice an annoying noise pitch (there are even videos about it), others seem to have a virtually silent unit. Is there a way to make sure one can get a quiet TSDZ2, or is it just russian roulette ? In the latter case, I'd probably get the BBS02, even though it's heavier (on page 29, Waynemarlow writes about 2Kg).

Tough that would probably not help with the overall chainline issue with those add-on mid drives.

Thank you all for sharing your experience.

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eyebyesickle   10 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by eyebyesickle » Sep 22 2017 6:29pm

I'm thinking the loud motors may have to do with the initial gear install/greasing... Looking into that theory, because out of all the units I sold (not that many), so far we have 1 that is sounding loud...

The BBS is always a good, tried and proven alternative... I guess they each have their pros and cons

qwerkus   1 kW

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by qwerkus » Sep 22 2017 7:08pm

eyebyesickle wrote:I'm thinking the loud motors may have to do with the initial gear install/greasing... Looking into that theory, because out of all the units I sold (not that many), so far we have 1 that is sounding loud...
Thanks for the quick reply. Perhaps we could post a poll at the beginning of this thread to get some statistics about how many TSTZ-2 are actually loud ?

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Re: New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

Post by Triketech » Sep 22 2017 7:48pm

eyebyesickle wrote:I'm thinking the loud motors may have to do with the initial gear install/greasing... Looking into that theory, because out of all the units I sold (not that many), so far we have 1 that is sounding loud...
Wishful thinking. It has to do with the gear design and manufacture. WAY wrong Pressure Angle (PA) on the secondary reduction. Violates every AGMA rule on sound and efficiency. Should be at least 18° PA, ideal would be about 22°.

Mine were cut with a shaper. A shaper that was set up with way too deep a cut.

I suspect they have a primary vendor who is over capacity so they chose a crap vendor to fill production shortages. So no guarantee you won't get a noisy gear that cannot be quieted down with some extra grease.

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