FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

[FREYebikes]

Hi, all friends here!

Latest update on 3rd,May. we have tested M600 2.0 in mountain bike park that showed the bike is excellent！
some photos and video for you to watch below:

Video: https://youtu.be/QGbIhHO4RuI

We will release specs and price in coming week and accept orders.

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Latest update on 15th,April, 2019 below:

We have upgraded 2019 M600 2.0 with integrated battery as how many of you expected in last year.
Glad to tell that our new M600 2.0 sample bike come out and we will make it come with several color pattern with our FREY logo, some pictures for you have a look below:

BLUE M600.jpg (505.45 KiB) Viewed 3449 times

YELLOW M600.jpg (498.12 KiB) Viewed 3449 times

PURPLE M600.jpg (501.2 KiB) Viewed 3449 times

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We are planning to develop new eMTB with Bafang m600.
How do you want it to be finally and you would love to have it!
We can discuss mainly in 2 points.

1. What construction would you like to see on the bike with m600?

2. What type of battery solution and what's the capacity would you like to get?
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update on 2018.06.28
Our new model 27.5+ full suspension eMTB come out in good performance after some test on demo bike, some photos following for you have a look : )

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IMG_20180626_103243.jpg (444.47 KiB) Viewed 5797 times

IMG_20180626_103428.jpg (348.47 KiB) Viewed 5797 times

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IMG_20180626_102151.jpg (400.91 KiB) Viewed 5797 times

We have upload a product page link on Alibaba with more detailed info and a little video for you to have a look below:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... 71d2W5tmAJ

[robocam]

It would be awesome if Frey could make a bike as light as the Specialized Levo Turbo (or almost as light as) using Bafang's lightest torque sensing motor with a thumb throttle. I suggest using the same rear suspension design (FSR/Horst Link) and make the frame as similar in geometry to the Specialized as possible.

My choice of battery would be a 52V (14s4p) pack of Samsung 30Q cells. If the battery can be made flush with the frame (or doesn't stick out as much) that would be awesome.

Other:
160mm front & rear travel
30.9mm seat tube and internal routing for a dropper post

Basically make it as similar to an Enduro 29 as possible.

Hi, all friends here!
We are planning to develop new eMTB with Bafang m600.
How do you want it to be finally and you would love to have it!
We can discuss mainly in 2 points.

1. What construction would you like to see on the bike with m600?

2. What type of battery solution and what's the capacity would you like to get?

[FREYebikes]

Thank you for your advice, your info is helpful.
By the way, I posted this topic under non hub drive area but it was moved here. I suppose few people come to see this area?

It would be awesome if Frey could make a bike as light as the Specialized Levo Turbo (or almost as light as) using Bafang's lightest torque sensing motor with a thumb throttle. I suggest using the same rear suspension design (FSR/Horst Link) and make the frame as similar in geometry to the Specialized as possible.

My choice of battery would be a 52V (14s4p) pack of Samsung 30Q cells. If the battery can be made flush with the frame (or doesn't stick out as much) that would be awesome.

Other:
160mm front & rear travel
30.9mm seat tube and internal routing for a dropper post

Basically make it as similar to an Enduro 29 as possible.

Hi, all friends here!
We are planning to develop new eMTB with Bafang m600.
How do you want it to be finally and you would love to have it!
We can discuss mainly in 2 points.

1. What construction would you like to see on the bike with m600?

2. What type of battery solution and what's the capacity would you like to get?

[robocam]

You're welcome =)

I would assume a moderator decided this was a more appropriate section.

Thank you for your advice, your info is helpful.
By the way, I posted this topic under non hub drive area but it was moved here. I suppose few people come to see this area?

[Shilah]

I would like to have a full trail bike with not less of 800wh battery pack and with medium suspension travel. Not over 14 cm.
I prefer a semi- integrated battery in the down tube. The down tube shall contains also the new type of cell 20700
In Europe we dont have e-bike with large battery and my passion in going slowly but for a long time. Now I cant do this with only a 500 wh battery.
Sorry for my bad English, I am Italian.

[FREYebikes]

Thank you for your idea.

I would like to have a full trail bike with not less of 800wh battery pack and with medium suspension travel. Not over 14 cm.
I prefer a semi- integrated battery in the down tube. The down tube shall contains also the new type of cell 20700
In Europe we dont have e-bike with large battery and my passion in going slowly but for a long time. Now I cant do this with only a 500 wh battery.
Sorry for my bad English, I am Italian.

[Robleman]

Hi Frey and Happy New Year!

Congrats for the proyect since it looks very interesting and different from whats in the market allready.

I add my suggestions:
- Design: double suspension with battery in down tube.
- Not radical design/geometry in any aspect so you can reach a wider market. Focus on single trail riding.
- offer optional upgrades: suspension front&back and IGH(maybe 2 options: Alfine and Roloff for high end)
- 2 battery capacity options so we can choose between weight and range: suggest 15Ah & 21Ah
- keep total weight close to 23-24 kg

[leelorr]

Maybe I missed it, but I haven't seen this mentioned:

In 27.5 + (plus) format please!

Looks like the makings of a great bike so far.

[Drum]

Hi Frey Bikes and other members of the ES forum.
I am excited to see a manufacturer who has the resources to design and manufacture a bike tapping into the wealth of knowledge and experience of the members of this forum. I think it is a good pathway to achieving a great result.
A few months ago I was lucky enough to get a two-hour ride on a Specialized Turbo Levo FSR fattie e-mtb in Rotorua forest (New Zealand) and covered a lot of ground and varied track types, mostly single-track cross country loops and downhills. I was VERY impressed with the bike.. less agile than my Giant Trance, and it needed a bit more persuasion to change direction, but made up for that by being smoother and more stable through the rocks and tree roots.
Once moving the extra weight was not an issue, and I covered over twice the distance and more than twice the height gain that I had achieved on my bike in the same time the day before. I still felt that I had done a lot of work, but was "pleasantly tired", not "wiped out" like the day before.
I decided that this was the type of bike I wanted. If the bank balance had looked better I probably would have bought that bike on the spot.... but the piggy bank was a bit light..

Since then I have done a LOT of reading on the e-mtbs made by the major mtb manufacturers, plus several I had never heard of, and read up on comparison tests done by knowlegeable testers on several bikes on the same tracks at the same time, and have come up with my own ideas on what works well in the 2017 and early 2018 bikes available.
There are already a lot of words in this post, so I will put in my ideas for geometry and components in a separate post (this on is long enough already..)
Dave

[Drum]

Geometry:
The Torbo Levo gets good reviews for its handling, but there are others that get better, so here's my take on the geometry.

Head tube angle: between 66 & 67 degrees
Seat tube angle: 75 degrees
Chainstay length (Bottom Bracket to rear axle): 440mm or as close as you can get to that figure allowing for tyre size etc
Bottom Bracket Drop (height of bottom bracket below the height of the axles): Around 15mm
Wheelbase: 1200 to 1230mm for Large frame size.

Components:
27.5" Boost (wider than usual) hubs and plus size tyres.. say 27.5 x 2.8,
Forks: 150 - 160mm travel, boost width, 15mm through axle, tapered steerer, single crown. Possibly offer 2 or 3 different forks to match different price points.
Maybe 1: Suntour AION 35 RC; 2: Rockshox Yari; 3: Rockshox Pike Or Fox equivalent
Rear Shock: Again, maybe 2 for different price points: Suntour or Rockshox Monarch / super Deluxe R or similar.
Drivetrain: Single Narrow/Wide chainring, optional size but recommend a standard one (maybe 44 teeth, but decide after testing);
Optional 8 speed / SRAM NX, or 11 speed if preferred (My guess is that the 8 speed would be ok with the strong torque). At
least 42 teeth on the biggest cassette sprocket.
Stem: Keep it short, no more than 40mm, and keep the top tube long to get the right reach for each size.
Bars: Keep them wide.. wide bars can be cut down, it is much harder to widen narrow ones!

Other comments:
-Seat tube: keep it long, straight and unobstructed to allow long seatposts and dropper seatposts to be used. Allow for internal routing for the dropper cable.

-It may be possible with the same frame and rear triangle to offer two versions of the bike: 1:Standard 29 inch wheels with 120mm travel, or 2: 27.5"+ wheels with 160mm travel. Obviously forks, shock and shock linkage would be different. Possibly a reversible rear axle mount would be needed to allow the for 29" wheel, with longer chainstays.
If only one version, make it 150 - 160mm travel.. testers are saying that the usual advantages of traditional shorter travel MTBs are not really as relevant to the e-MTBs, while the advantages of the longer travel suspension remain valid.

-If you can keep the Horst link rear suspension, great. If keeping it meant having a significantly longer chainstay length, then consider other options.. maybe build prototypes with different systems and compare.

-Offer the frame in at least 3 sizes.. when you are trying for enjoyable, high performance riding offroad, it does help if the bike is sized correctly for you. If only 2 sizes, then Medium and Large will cover the majority of riders.
Final comment: If you need a tester in NZ, feel free to message me!!

Looking forward to how this develops!
Dave

[robocam]

What other models have you read about that get good reviews?

Wow, you're almost describing Frey's current AM1000 exactly. Here's what it has already.
Head angle 66.5
Seat tube angle 75
160mm Rockshox Yari/Lyrik (better than a Pike)
11-speed cassette (11-46)
44T narrow-wide front chainring
Long, unobstructed seat tube that accommodates a long seat post
27.5+ with boost 110/148 hubs
short stem
800mm+ bars
3 frame sizes

Why would the 29" version only have 120mm of travel? Also, a 29" wheel is similar in outer diameter to a 27.5+, so there wouldn't be a need for two different designs. All you'd need are 29" wheels with boost hubs.

Geometry:
The Torbo Levo gets good reviews for its handling, but there are others that get better, so here's my take on the geometry.

Head tube angle: between 66 & 67 degrees
Seat tube angle: 75 degrees
Chainstay length (Bottom Bracket to rear axle): 440mm or as close as you can get to that figure allowing for tyre size etc
Bottom Bracket Drop (height of bottom bracket below the height of the axles): Around 15mm
Wheelbase: 1200 to 1230mm for Large frame size.

Components:
27.5" Boost (wider than usual) hubs and plus size tyres.. say 27.5 x 2.8,
Forks: 150 - 160mm travel, boost width, 15mm through axle, tapered steerer, single crown. Possibly offer 2 or 3 different forks to match different price points.
Maybe 1: Suntour AION 35 RC; 2: Rockshox Yari; 3: Rockshox Pike Or Fox equivalent
Rear Shock: Again, maybe 2 for different price points: Suntour or Rockshox Monarch / super Deluxe R or similar.
Drivetrain: Single Narrow/Wide chainring, optional size but recommend a standard one (maybe 44 teeth, but decide after testing);
Optional 8 speed / SRAM NX, or 11 speed if preferred (My guess is that the 8 speed would be ok with the strong torque). At
least 42 teeth on the biggest cassette sprocket.
Stem: Keep it short, no more than 40mm, and keep the top tube long to get the right reach for each size.
Bars: Keep them wide.. wide bars can be cut down, it is much harder to widen narrow ones!

Other comments:
-Seat tube: keep it long, straight and unobstructed to allow long seatposts and dropper seatposts to be used. Allow for internal routing for the dropper cable.

-It may be possible with the same frame and rear triangle to offer two versions of the bike: 1:Standard 29 inch wheels with 120mm travel, or 2: 27.5"+ wheels with 160mm travel. Obviously forks, shock and shock linkage would be different. Possibly a reversible rear axle mount would be needed to allow the for 29" wheel, with longer chainstays.
If only one version, make it 150 - 160mm travel.. testers are saying that the usual advantages of traditional shorter travel MTBs are not really as relevant to the e-MTBs, while the advantages of the longer travel suspension remain valid.

-If you can keep the Horst link rear suspension, great. If keeping it meant having a significantly longer chainstay length, then consider other options.. maybe build prototypes with different systems and compare.

-Offer the frame in at least 3 sizes.. when you are trying for enjoyable, high performance riding offroad, it does help if the bike is sized correctly for you. If only 2 sizes, then Medium and Large will cover the majority of riders.
Final comment: If you need a tester in NZ, feel free to message me!!

Looking forward to how this develops!
Dave

[robocam]

Keep making these out of aluminum. I'm aware of how strong carbon fiber can be, but I've also read about many failures in carbon fiber frames, and I've seen it first hand on my friend's Yeti SB6c. Unless you offer the frame with a lifetime warranty with local dealer support, I just cannot trust carbon fiber.

I also suggest using a common rear derailleur hanger such as one from one of the major bike manufacturers (like one from a Specialized Enduro 29 - I like those because they're small and flat, easy to store). This way I can just go to Amazon or any local bike shop to buy one, and I wouldn't have to worry about not being able to find one in the future.

[Shilah]

Specialized sells a lot of frame variants.. Frey can do the same and it will sells many e-bike.
But I want a large battery. In Europe I can not have one with bosch, yamaha, brose,shimano motor.
Please keep the same downtube of Ultra e-bike.

[Shilah]

Big battery is better: It has no competition in Europe

[Drum]

"What other models have you read about that get good reviews?"

Several of the bikes I have read about get good overall reviews, but the one that seems to get the best comments ("Climbs well, descends well, great fun to ride, no weaknesses, has agility and stability" type of comment) is the Merida e-160. Obviously the top-spec e-160-900 gets the best comments, but the lower spec e-160-800 clearly won the 11 bike "under 5,000 pound" test here:
http://ebike-mtb.com/en/review-11-e-mtb ... omparison/
This review has links to the detailed reviews for each of the 11 bikes.
and the -900 spec had won the similar comparison for a higher price bracket.
Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYTKlVL8bo8 video review.

"Why would the 29" version only have 120mm travel?"
2 reasons: Most MTB manufacturers seem to be offering the 29" wheels in more "cross country" rather than "all mountain" or downhill bikes. One reason I have read is that the larger diameter wheels are more fragile and cannot take side force and big hits as well as the smaller diameter wheels.
Also, they roll over bumps easier than smaller wheels and don't need as much suspension.
But I take your point about the outside diameter of a 2" 29 and a 3" 27.5 being close. One e-MTB I have read about does offer a reversible insert for the rear axle to convert the bike between 27.5" wheels and 29" wheels, implying that there is a difference. However, possibly that bike is not set up to run 3" tyres with the 27.5" rims.

"Wow, you're almost describing Frey's current AM1000 exactly"
If I had been less busy yesterday I had planned to look at the specs for the AM1000 before posting, but ran out of day. That's great.. looks as though they are doing their homework.
It would be interesting to know what the rear centre distance is on that bike. With the bulk of the Ultra motor unit, the Horst link back suspension and the clearance for big tyres, I imagine it is well over 450mm.
I watched a YouTube video about Bafang's products including the M600, and they specifically said that they had designed the motor unit so that short rear-centre lengths were possible, which is great. The comments from the tests above, and others I have read, indicte that too long a rear centre distance reduces the bike's agility, but of course it is all a compromise.

Weight: All of the bikes in the comparison test mentioned above were between 22 and 24kg. It would be great if Frey could get into that range as well, or not much more.

Battery capacity: My 2 hour ride on the Turbo Levo used about half the battery capacity, and maybe 80% of my personal fitness, so I doubt that I personally would need a battery bigger than 400 or 500 Watt-hour capacity. Saying that, I am not so young any more, and there are many others who would be able to keep riding all day. Possibly offer a battery around 450Wh standard with an optional higher capacity battery at extra cost?
If only one battery offered, make it at least 500Wh so it is up with the opposition brands in spec, and you can get a decent ride out of it.
Dave

[Drop Dead Fred]

I don't know about everyone but I really liked the frame design shown from Bafang. I really like the battery hidden in side the frame with front release and 3 different configurations of battery.

Look how clean it looks with the battery tucked away in the frame!

How about Frey Bikes can you do something like that?

[FREYebikes]

For planning new bike with m600, we will considerate to use some other constructions that friends here recommended. We think it is reasonable.
As we known, Bafang do not have the battery system offer, the bike is just a demo to show the motor. We need to find some suitable battery tube to use or maybe developing by ourselves with a integrated design.
We will make the bike with F & R suspension 160mm travel.
And keep most Geometry as earlier, 66.5 head tube, 75 seat post. and we will try to make a shorter chainstay as all you expect.

I don't know about everyone but I really liked the frame design shown from Bafang. I really like the battery hidden in side the frame with front release and 3 different configurations of battery.

Look how clean it looks with the battery tucked away in the frame!

How about Frey Bikes can you do something like that?

[Animalector]

I contacted bafang directly and was told that the frame was a one-off CNC produced frame just for the show.
Shimano build an integrated battery similar to this one.. so do Bosch.
In bafangs promotional material they indicated having a battery available but they must be focusing on the drive unit only. The smaller version 500Wh of the style used by the AM1000 would be fine it is quite neatly integrated and already available

Andy Oudyn

[Drum]

Looking at the Bafang website, they offer a mounting bracket for the m500 & m600 motors:
http://www.bafang-e.com/en/components/c ... -g520.html

This looks like the part that surrounds / mounts the motor and forms the bottom of the frame on the blue bike shown a few posts ago.
It appears to be made specifically to work with a large, "square with rounded corners" frame downtube as used on the blue bike in the photo.. it doesn't look easy to integrate into a frame with smaller or different shaped tubes.

They also offer a 600Wh battery: http://www.bafang-e.com/en/components/c ... 0uart.html
Presumably the dimensions of the battery can be integrated well within the downtube size that matches the mounting bracket.

It would of course be possible to work out a different mounting, but probably the easiest (and best) frame would be very similar to the blue bike in the photos as far as the motor mount and battery set up.

[Animalector]

Bafang like to put their products on the website, but they're not yet available for sale. Best example is the Max Ultra 1000W drive, it seemed to me like it was online for well over a year before anything was available for purchase. Same goes for the M600, it's online already, but you can't buy one.. Yet...

If it was available it would be the go, but they would likely need to supply the moulding (frame section) etc. Bafang offer the http://www.bafang-e.com/en/components/c ... -g510.html to mount to any frame configuration

Andy

[hoojsn]

My request
1. Original Bafang Frame where battery can be hide in the tube.
2.Higher AH battery 17ah to 21ah or better (If 52V with 21700 cells)
3. Battery Brand: Sanyo or Pansonic
4. Tyre 27.5", so that we can exchange bicycle rim with our current ebike.
5, Available in 2 model Hardtail and Dual Suspension
6. Normal Derailleur system, as IGH will add additional weight to bike and defeat the purpose of weight reduction.
7. Quad Piston brake whether from Magura or Tektro will be fine.
8. Disc Brake size 203mm F/R

[Drop Dead Fred]

Bafang like to put their products on the website, but they're not yet available for sale. Best example is the Max Ultra 1000W drive, it seemed to me like it was online for well over a year before anything was available for purchase. Same goes for the M600, it's online already, but you can't buy one.. Yet...

If it was available it would be the go, but they would likely need to supply the moulding (frame section) etc. Bafang offer the http://www.bafang-e.com/en/components/c ... -g510.html to mount to any frame configuration

Andy

The web page says M500 but has the same part number as the M600 ... G521.500
Says 50 available... Not sure if it is true or not.

My bad guys, the dog was barking at me to play ball and I forgot to paste it in the text area.

http://ouka-ebike.com/bafang-mm-g521500 ... 03094.html

[Animalector]

Where is that from?, I've emailed Bafang Directly, as well as Frey and another couple of manufacturers they all say March / April for release. Perhaps this is just a pre-sale?

[Drum]

Hi Fred,
Could you please copy the website address for the G521 kit and post it? I can't find any webpage showing the unit or kit for sale..

Thanks
Dave

[Drop Dead Fred]

Where is that from?, I've emailed Bafang Directly, as well as Frey and another couple of manufacturers they all say March / April for release. Perhaps this is just a pre-sale?

http://ouka-ebike.com/bafang-mm-g521500 ... 03094.html