FREY eMTB with Bafang m600 is developing with your ideas!

[FREYebikes]

Hi Every friends here!
This is Ivy from FREY company. I'm glad our AM1000 is welcomed here and have much technical discussion and communication.
Our company is focusing at high end eMTB with Bafang Ultra drive system. and now we are developing high end full suspension fat bike also with Bafang Ultra system and following will have some new model eMTB.
It's our honor come here to learn all your demands and we are trying to develop good bikes just you wannna.
So feel free tell your ideas how do you want to get the future eMTB and fat bike.

[scrambler]

Hi Every friends here!
This is Ivy from FREY company. I'm glad our AM1000 is welcomed here and have much technical discussion and communication.
Our company is focusing at high end eMTB with Bafang Ultra drive system. and now we are developing high end full suspension fat bike also with Bafang Ultra system and following will have some new model eMTB.
It's our honor come here to learn all your demands and we are trying to develop good bikes just you wannna.
So feel free tell your ideas how do you want to get the future eMTB and fat bike.

Glad to hear from you.
1- The original poster had some interesting remark on small geometry changes for the frame See below.

Another interesting thing I noticed today is that the motor causes the rear suspension to jack when power is applied. In other words, the rear end goes up. It is my understanding that this is due to the high pivot location. When the pivot is above the chainring, tension on the chain will pull the rear wheel toward the ground. Most mountain bikes are designed so that pedaling forces have minimal influence on the suspension (to reduce pedal bob).

I wonder if Frey should consider finding a way to put the pivot lower, at the same height as the top of the chainring. I haven't ridden enough to know if this will affect my riding, but I just thought I'd mention it. I only noticed it because I was looking at the suspension while I was accelerating. This effect didn't bother me.

But honestly, I would prefer a simple single pivot rear suspension (maybe a Horst Link/FSR design) if it makes it easier to optimize the suspension. If you look at any mountain bike, you'll see that the main pivot is usually located where the top of a 32T chainring would be.

2- You could also exchange his modified settings for the torque sensing programing, so you could deliver the bike with a better default

3- As per the last few posts, you should offer the option of an Internal geared hub that can cope with the Ultra Motor while offering a decent Gear range.

4- Offering a longer warranty would go a long way reassuring people about buying from a far away unknown company

[FREYebikes]

Hi friends! thank you for your kind feedback. We are improving our bikes again and again.
1. We noticed the lift issue when the motor power started at beginning. Now we are trying to improve it in the new batch frames, we will make the pivot point lower, and try to make the bottom 2 points in a line to make it flat force when the motor started.
We will make same frame to test and let you know. By the way, we will make new ones with rear 160mm travel for choice. Now rear body travel is 150mm.
2. We will exchange more with our customers to make the software original setting much better to ride. But I guess different guys like different ways, that's depend on you! We will offer the configuration tool and the cable to our customers for their using!
3. I noticed many friends are talking about internal gears. We are also interested, but it seems there is few choice to fit on mountain bike, especially to a high end All mountain ebike fit with a big power mid drive motor.
4. Now we offering 2 years warranty. and service will keep longer time.

Hi Every friends here!
This is Ivy from FREY company. I'm glad our AM1000 is welcomed here and have much technical discussion and communication.
Our company is focusing at high end eMTB with Bafang Ultra drive system. and now we are developing high end full suspension fat bike also with Bafang Ultra system and following will have some new model eMTB.
It's our honor come here to learn all your demands and we are trying to develop good bikes just you wannna.
So feel free tell your ideas how do you want to get the future eMTB and fat bike.

Glad to hear from you.
1- The original poster had some interesting remark on small geometry changes for the frame See below.

Another interesting thing I noticed today is that the motor causes the rear suspension to jack when power is applied. In other words, the rear end goes up. It is my understanding that this is due to the high pivot location. When the pivot is above the chainring, tension on the chain will pull the rear wheel toward the ground. Most mountain bikes are designed so that pedaling forces have minimal influence on the suspension (to reduce pedal bob).

I wonder if Frey should consider finding a way to put the pivot lower, at the same height as the top of the chainring. I haven't ridden enough to know if this will affect my riding, but I just thought I'd mention it. I only noticed it because I was looking at the suspension while I was accelerating. This effect didn't bother me.

But honestly, I would prefer a simple single pivot rear suspension (maybe a Horst Link/FSR design) if it makes it easier to optimize the suspension. If you look at any mountain bike, you'll see that the main pivot is usually located where the top of a 32T chainring would be.

2- You could also exchange his modified settings for the torque sensing programing, so you could deliver the bike with a better default

3- As per the last few posts, you should offer the option of an Internal geared hub that can cope with the Ultra Motor while offering a decent Gear range.

4- Offering a longer warranty would go a long way reassuring people about buying from a far away unknown company

[FREYebikes]

We will make our bike better and better with all your feedback and supports.
We study with big brands like Giant, Merida to make our bike with good quality, performance but in much lower cost to offer customers.
The rear suspension construction is close to Giant Full E, and the Geometry is very close to Merida E Sixty.
Our chainstay is 474mm, Giant Full E seems 463mm, right? it is a little longer than other brands, that's because we can fit with 3.0" tire and the Bafang Ultra motor is also bigger size than other motors I think. We have made the frame the best compact as we can, there is few space wasted. : )

[icehunter]

> So feel free tell your ideas how do you want to get the future eMTB and fat bike.

Well, NUMBER ONE : if you could lighten the bike by a few kilos, that would be on everybody's list I think

If you are looking for an edge compared to all other Asian vendors, I would look at battery technology. 52V would be much appreciated and you should definitely look at the 20700 and 21700 cells, high amps and high capacity. They can easily do 15A discharge with over 30% increase in runtime for only a few millimeters size increase.

Everybody is jumping on the 20700/21700 wagon ; single cell flashlight used to be around max 1200 lumens but suddenly we have 4000 lumens single cell light such as the Acebeam L30 ( http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/sho ... 00lm-20700 ) ; If you do a quick google search on 20700 you can quickly see that the vaping community is jumping this way ; Tesla is doing it ,) ; And Luna is building its max ultra on a 20700 battery. A review on the cell from ebike perspective is here https://www.electricbike.com/new-21700-cells/

[FREYebikes]

Thank you for your information. We will check about the battery cells whether there is some good choice for future.
We are prepare to make 52V sample to test. 52V 1300W power match a 52V 17.5AH battery with 70pcs LG MJ1 3500mA cells can fit for the battery case.
Here are full of engineer and technician!
I think we can do something like co-create together.

> So feel free tell your ideas how do you want to get the future eMTB and fat bike.

Well, NUMBER ONE : if you could lighten the bike by a few kilos, that would be on everybody's list I think

If you are looking for an edge compared to all other Asian vendors, I would look at battery technology. 52V would be much appreciated and you should definitely look at the 20700 and 21700 cells, high amps and high capacity. They can easily do 15A discharge with over 30% increase in runtime for only a few millimeters size increase.

Everybody is jumping on the 20700/21700 wagon ; single cell flashlight used to be around max 1200 lumens but suddenly we have 4000 lumens single cell light such as the Acebeam L30 ( http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/sho ... 00lm-20700 ) ; If you do a quick google search on 20700 you can quickly see that the vaping community is jumping this way ; Tesla is doing it ,) ; And Luna is building its max ultra on a 20700 battery. A review on the cell from ebike perspective is here https://www.electricbike.com/new-21700-cells/

[Drop Dead Fred]

We will make our bike better and better with all your feedback and supports.
We study with big brands like Giant, Merida to make our bike with good quality, performance but in much lower cost to offer customers.
The rear suspension construction is close to Giant Full E, and the Geometry is very close to Merida E Sixty.
Our chainstay is 474mm, Giant Full E seems 463mm, right? it is a little longer than other brands, that's because we can fit with 3.0" tire and the Bafang Ultra motor is also bigger size than other motors I think. We have made the frame the best compact as we can, there is few space wasted. : )

Ivy, thanks for keep studying. Personally I like that we can put a 3.0 tire in as my current bike is running 2.8 and rub sometimes pretty hard. But I like the bigger tires for off road!

[scrambler]

4. Now we offering 2 years warranty. and service will keep longer time.

Excellent news!

[FREYebikes]

hi, our bike frame width is 148mm with thru axle 148*12mm.
Do you have any recommend IGH to match our bike or we can test?
Thank you in advance for your reply.

Just to share my experience with IGH Alfine 8 combined with a bafang BBSHD: awesome!

It is working without problems for about 8 months. Chainline is good. 1,5KW peak power ok. Range is more than enough for single track riding.

Only issue to take care of is the cable regulation, its very sensible so if you don't set it well it makes noises as its going to break. But once its done ok it keeps the setting for long.

So I recommend the Alfine 8 for middrives to everyone.

[FREYebikes]

We will considerate to develop new model with Bafang M600, but that's depend on the market demands on what customers really want to get! if with M600 motor, what battery capacity would prefer to match! Now Bafang is in mode producing process for the motor, and the motor expect to release in April we think, the time schedule is just as Ultra motor release at beginning of this year!

Im waiting for new 2018 Bafang motor M600
http://www.bafang-e.com/en/drive-system ... ystem.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR0gFy1xIGQ

I dont need so much power and want lighter motor, shorter chainstay, narrow q factor....
Do Frey plan to make bikes with new Bafang motor?

[FREYebikes]

Just a quick poll.
For the thumb throttle, do people want 100% power to be available regardless of the assist setting, as opposed to having it dependent on the assist level chosen (where full throttle in assist 1 would be lower in power than full throttle in assist 5)?

For me I don't see any reason to make the throttle dependent on the pedal assist, if you want to limit how fast the throttle goes, well, use the throttle at the level you need, this is what a throttle does

So my vote is throttle should always map to 100%

The only reason I would want the throttle limited is for different power modes (like street legal and off road) so you are not tempted to go over. This would mostly apply to high powered bike, but given the Ultra is above the street legal power of 350W in Europe and 750W in the US, I would like to see two power modes on the Ultra, for the US, I would want one to be limited at 750W and one unlimited.

Do you want the thumb throttle to be enabled in assist level 0?

I don't really understand this distinction because I don't really see the need for assist level zero. I am not getting an E-bike not to use the electric assist, so I have no use for assist level zero.
That said, I don't see any logic in disabling the throttle because the power assit would be off. If you don't want to use the throttle, then don't, no need to have it hardcoded. It is always better to have the choice.

So my vote is also to enable the throttle at pedal assist zero.

I try to answer your below question:
Bafang design the motor not 0 speed to start the throttle because of security and safety consideration under an unexpected sudden start. If want to make the throttle work, must set not 0, it can be a very little number. have you got my meaning?

Now side question to robocam or others with the bike.
On most bikes using the Bafang (Max or Ultra) The throttle does not work from a dead stop, you have to be going a few miles per hour before it works. This is apparently because Bafang believes throttling from a dead stop may damage the motor.

Can you confirm if the throttle on the Frey works from a dead stop, or only for a few miles per hour, and if so how many.

Note: This mat be different with Ultra using the Metal reduction gear versus the original nylon one

[Drop Dead Fred]

We will considerate to develop new model with Bafang M600, but that's depend on the market demands on what customers really want to get! if with M600 motor, what battery capacity would prefer to match! Now Bafang is in mode producing process for the motor, and the motor expect to release in April we think, the time schedule is just as Ultra motor release at beginning of this year!

Im waiting for new 2018 Bafang motor M600
http://www.bafang-e.com/en/drive-system ... ystem.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR0gFy1xIGQ

I dont need so much power and want lighter motor, shorter chainstay, narrow q factor....
Do Frey plan to make bikes with new Bafang motor?

Turbo Levo is 21.5 KG so if using the M600 can get the weight down on a similar Bafang system that would be something!

[icehunter]

Can you at Frey share some detail and timeframe of the full suspension max ultra FAT bike that you are planning to roll out?

[FREYebikes]

hi, our full suspension fat bike with good components set will come out in coming month January.
We will update latest news following.

Can you at Frey share some detail and timeframe of the full suspension max ultra FAT bike that you are planning to roll out?

[FREYebikes]

Hello, everyone. Happy new 2018!
Glad to communicate with you all here!
We would like to share some information with all friends who love to ride mountain bike and eMTB.
We will have 2018 version AM1000 with some detail improvement in order to get a better performance. New demo expect to be made out in late of this month before bulk frame ready. and upgrade DELUXE RL 205*65mm rear suspension is new option.
We will keep all friends update here, please pay attention if you are interested to learn more.
For this model, as it match a big power mid drive motor, and as few of all mountain type full suspension model with Bafang Ultra mid motor system, we realize reliable and stable frame is important for durable use. so it is close to a heavy duty eMTB compare with other eMTB with 250W motor power, so make it in a lighter weight is very difficulty to do, but we will try to save some weight if possible to do in some parts. but it will not be big difference if with same motor and battery capacity.

And we also receive many demands on some bike with Bafang new motor m600. and we will try to develop some bike base on market demands and design ideas from you. I believe that we can make out a good bike by co-creation, any of ideas from you please feel free talk with us. from bike construction, components and so on.
If there are many guys interested to create some bike with m600, let's do it together!
Maybe we can open a new issue for this topic, how do you think about it, friends?

[FREYebikes]

Hi friend, we are contact with Rohloff company to ask for about the hub, if it is possible to buy it in a reasonable cost, and some customer is interested to use it, it is possible for us to make out the bike for you.
We will keep update news about IGH. BTW, 1200USD is really high cost to use it. any other cheaper and good options available?

@ Frey how much for an AM 1000 with rohloff hub ?

If you could build one I'd buy it .

[romagjack]

If there are many guys interested to create some bike with m600, let's do it together!
Maybe we can open a new issue for this topic, how do you think about it, friends?

Good idea - new topic for M600.

[FREYebikes]

Hi， in new batch frame, 2 parts on frame will be hollowed to save some weight, that is top swing arm and bottom arm. the present Swing arm, we make it hollowed as below, the weight will be 120g less. we will do it as below way.

IMG_20180103_104232.jpg (143.79 KiB) Viewed 4153 times

IMG_20180103_104215.jpg (136.7 KiB) Viewed 4153 times

And the head tube present frame is 160mm, the new batch frame will be 145mm. we make it some shorter.

Hello, I have been following this thread for a while and have read it from the beginning.
I really like the Bafang Ultra system, and the fact that Frey has been really reactive with all my questions makes me eager to by an AM-1000.

To me the first thing that could be improved is weight by hollowing out some of the parts (I'm thinking rear pivot pieces) and maybe removing the connecting part just in front of the wheel in the rear triangle (I have not seen any ebike with this kind of geometry with a connecting rod there).

The second thing would be geometry, although I'm not an expert on this, and the current geometry seems already great, but if we can improve it, why not ? Something that seems strange to me is the dual pivot behind the motor, where any other ebike has a single pivot (the rear triangle is connected in only one place behind the motor) and I can't see why... If any expert on this could enlighten me, or even advise, that'd be great. EDIT: After looking at it closely I can now guess that it allows the rear triangle to move upwards instead of rotating... I feel dumb now eheh

I'm aware that hollowing out little parts won't do much, but a few grams here and there quickly add to half, or even a full kilo, which is great !

[FREYebikes]

Hi, all friends here!

Latest update on 3rd,May. we have tested M600 2.0 in mountain bike park that showed the bike is excellent！
some photos and video for you to watch below:

Video: https://youtu.be/QGbIhHO4RuI

We will release specs and price in coming week and accept orders.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Latest update on 15th,April, 2019 below:

We have upgraded 2019 M600 2.0 with integrated battery as how many of you expected in last year.
Glad to tell that our new M600 2.0 sample bike come out and we will make it come with several color pattern with our FREY logo, some pictures for you have a look below:

BLUE M600.jpg (505.45 KiB) Viewed 5098 times

YELLOW M600.jpg (498.12 KiB) Viewed 5098 times

PURPLE M600.jpg (501.2 KiB) Viewed 5098 times

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We are planning to develop new eMTB with Bafang m600.
How do you want it to be finally and you would love to have it!
We can discuss mainly in 2 points.

1. What construction would you like to see on the bike with m600?

2. What type of battery solution and what's the capacity would you like to get?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
update on 2018.06.28
Our new model 27.5+ full suspension eMTB come out in good performance after some test on demo bike, some photos following for you have a look : )

IMG_20180626_103359.jpg (424.54 KiB) Viewed 7446 times

IMG_20180626_103223.jpg (437.71 KiB) Viewed 7446 times

IMG_20180626_103243.jpg (444.47 KiB) Viewed 7446 times

IMG_20180626_103428.jpg (348.47 KiB) Viewed 7446 times

IMG_20180626_102208.jpg (385.03 KiB) Viewed 7446 times

IMG_20180626_102151.jpg (400.91 KiB) Viewed 7446 times

We have upload a product page link on Alibaba with more detailed info and a little video for you to have a look below:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ ... 71d2W5tmAJ

[FREYebikes]

About bike with m600, we can discuss in another topic in below:
Any of your ideas are welcome.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 0#p1348820

[robocam]

It would be awesome if Frey could make a bike as light as the Specialized Levo Turbo (or almost as light as) using Bafang's lightest torque sensing motor with a thumb throttle. I suggest using the same rear suspension design (FSR/Horst Link) and make the frame as similar in geometry to the Specialized as possible.

My choice of battery would be a 52V (14s4p) pack of Samsung 30Q cells. If the battery can be made flush with the frame (or doesn't stick out as much) that would be awesome.

Other:
160mm front & rear travel
30.9mm seat tube and internal routing for a dropper post

Basically make it as similar to an Enduro 29 as possible.

Hi, all friends here!
We are planning to develop new eMTB with Bafang m600.
How do you want it to be finally and you would love to have it!
We can discuss mainly in 2 points.

1. What construction would you like to see on the bike with m600?

2. What type of battery solution and what's the capacity would you like to get?

[FREYebikes]

Thank you for your advice, your info is helpful.
By the way, I posted this topic under non hub drive area but it was moved here. I suppose few people come to see this area?

It would be awesome if Frey could make a bike as light as the Specialized Levo Turbo (or almost as light as) using Bafang's lightest torque sensing motor with a thumb throttle. I suggest using the same rear suspension design (FSR/Horst Link) and make the frame as similar in geometry to the Specialized as possible.

My choice of battery would be a 52V (14s4p) pack of Samsung 30Q cells. If the battery can be made flush with the frame (or doesn't stick out as much) that would be awesome.

Other:
160mm front & rear travel
30.9mm seat tube and internal routing for a dropper post

Basically make it as similar to an Enduro 29 as possible.

Hi, all friends here!
We are planning to develop new eMTB with Bafang m600.
How do you want it to be finally and you would love to have it!
We can discuss mainly in 2 points.

1. What construction would you like to see on the bike with m600?

2. What type of battery solution and what's the capacity would you like to get?

[robocam]

You're welcome =)

I would assume a moderator decided this was a more appropriate section.

Thank you for your advice, your info is helpful.
By the way, I posted this topic under non hub drive area but it was moved here. I suppose few people come to see this area?

[Shilah]

I would like to have a full trail bike with not less of 800wh battery pack and with medium suspension travel. Not over 14 cm.
I prefer a semi- integrated battery in the down tube. The down tube shall contains also the new type of cell 20700
In Europe we dont have e-bike with large battery and my passion in going slowly but for a long time. Now I cant do this with only a 500 wh battery.
Sorry for my bad English, I am Italian.

[FREYebikes]

Thank you for your idea.

I would like to have a full trail bike with not less of 800wh battery pack and with medium suspension travel. Not over 14 cm.
I prefer a semi- integrated battery in the down tube. The down tube shall contains also the new type of cell 20700
In Europe we dont have e-bike with large battery and my passion in going slowly but for a long time. Now I cant do this with only a 500 wh battery.
Sorry for my bad English, I am Italian.