Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
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youyoung21147   100 mW

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Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by youyoung21147 » Dec 02 2018 9:37am

Hello,

I just came across these 2 datasheets on QB's website.

Both are clearly addressing the EV and residential storage market. E63 is ~240Wh/kg and C1.5S is ~170Wh/kg.

It seems like the 65Ah model is the current (or future ?) Renault Zoe battery cell : the datasheet explicitely mentions 22 and 43kW charging scenario equivalent to 115/224W per cell. That means a 46kWh battery pack with 192 cells. The Renault Zoe has a 192-cell, 41kWh pack ! Some other details speak for themselves, like the way the puncture tests are performed in a cell holder similar to the Zoe battery pack architecture.

I'm very pleased to see how detailed the datasheets are. All the characterization has been performed to cover EV use scenarios :
- Temperature dependance
- Cycle life
- Shelf life
- SoC = f(voltage) for BMS charging and remaining energy calculation algorithms
- Max charge current = f(SoC)
- Impedance

That litteraly means thousands of measurements !

Interestingly, Renault is now offering to sell its Zoe and Twizy with battery since April 2018, which is very close to this datasheet's release date (February 2018). Before that, the only option was to rent the battery.

I can only suspect that LG and Renault extensive characterization of the battery cells ageing during the last years has led to this kind of datasheet and also to a contract between Renault and LG to guarantee the cell performance in the field.

If QB's pricing is accurate (at 92USD/kWh), that would wean factory pricing between 50 and 75USD/kWh for the cells. Today, the insured value of the Zoe battery in case of crash is 7000€, that is ~200USD/kWh.

This is really good news for the EV market, more mature and well-qualified cells at a lower price.

I do hope someone here can get some of these cells and make a super EV or solar project with them :D
Attachments
LG C1.5S DATASHEET.doc
(413 KiB) Downloaded 182 times
lg e63.pdf
(437.7 KiB) Downloaded 558 times
Last edited by youyoung21147 on Dec 02 2018 1:11pm, edited 1 time in total.

yewsuck   10 mW

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by yewsuck » Dec 02 2018 10:33am

good read. thank you.

TilmanBaumann   100 W

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by TilmanBaumann » Dec 02 2018 10:38am

Does anyone by any chance have the specs for the (I think) older cells?
2P 15Ah. Used in chevvy volt and Volvo v60

Those guys https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =9&t=90395

I'm specifically looking for the max charge rate.
I suppose I can go at it with at least 1C perhaps 2C. But it would be risky to test that. :)


PS: I see the datasheet refers to constant power rather than constant current. I don't think I can set my charger/BMS to do that. But it seems to indicate that 1C is easily within range. Assuming my cells have a similar envelope.

youyoung21147   100 mW

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by youyoung21147 » Dec 02 2018 1:10pm

@TilmanBaumann

The most optimized way to charge LiIon cells is to use constant polarization voltage (20 to 100mV). All EV manufacturers use this method as the base for their charging algorithms. That's why the LG datasheet is so specific about SoC vs OCV. Betwwen 10 and 30% SoC, the cells can take huge charge current and that current has to be tapered down beyond that point. The intelligent charging algorithm implements some sort of adaptative multistage CC-CV-CC-CV-CC-CV-CC-CV profile based on many parameters (cell impedance, SoC, temperature...) It's like filling your stomach with food. The non-harmful speed depends on many parameters, mainly the fill level !

If you are interested in doing that with those undocumented cells, first plot the OCV vs mAh for these cells and make a charging program with 4 CC-CV regions (empty cell, 10-30%, 30-70%, 70-100%) that won't allow the charging voltage at a given mAh to exceed OCV+polarization voltage. That's a lot of work.

Or just extrapolate the charging profile in the LG datasheets and apply a 30-50% conservative derating.

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by Hillhater » Dec 11 2018 3:18am

youyoung21147 wrote:
Dec 02 2018 9:37am
If QB's pricing is accurate (at 92USD/kWh), that would wean factory pricing between 50 and 75USD/kWh for the cells.........
:shock: ..usd$92/kWh ??? Really !
That is 4 of those 63Ah cells for $92 !
Are you sure ?
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Pajda   100 W

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by Pajda » Dec 11 2018 4:51am

Yes it is stated in the price list, but I am not sure how many cells you need to order as minimal amount.

Mandres   10 mW

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by Mandres » Dec 11 2018 10:53am

Someone needs to start a group buy. Who do we know at LG? :D
It's frustrating that we (hobbyists/enthusiasts) don't have access to a direct, reliable source of top quality pouch cells. I wonder why Farasis, LG, A123 are so loathe to sell directly to the public? Why do we have to scrimp and scavenge for our batteries like cockroaches. It seem like there's a huge opportunity here for these manufacturers, why don't they take advantage? Is it a national security issue? A liability/warranty issue? Do GM and other OEMs buy out their entire production capacity?

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by Pajda » Dec 11 2018 11:27am

Mandres wrote:
Dec 11 2018 10:53am
I wonder why Farasis, LG, A123 are so loathe to sell directly to the public?
Are you really expecting an answer? :mrgreen:

Mandres   10 mW

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by Mandres » Dec 11 2018 11:35am

Pajda wrote:
Dec 11 2018 11:27am
Mandres wrote:
Dec 11 2018 10:53am
I wonder why Farasis, LG, A123 are so loathe to sell directly to the public?
Are you really expecting an answer? :mrgreen:
expecting? Probably not, but I'm genuinely curious. The going rate for used EV cells is something like $150 /kwH on ebay, with no guarantees of condition or capacity. Why wouldn't LG want to offer new cells to hobbyists? They could sell them at twice the market price (per the post above) and we would pay it gladly. Probably even 3x ...

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by neptronix » Dec 11 2018 12:09pm

Hm, these aren't exceptionally good cells, but the 240whrs/kg type would be great for a low power conversion, IE a grocery getter subcompact that can only handle short jaunts on the freeway and such.

Yeah, it is a real shame that you could only buy these as pulled packs from a crashed car.
Efficiency is everything :bolt:


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Punx0r   100 GW

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by Punx0r » Dec 14 2018 5:40am

Mandres wrote:
Dec 11 2018 11:35am
Why wouldn't LG want to offer new cells to hobbyists? They could sell them at twice the market price (per the post above) and we would pay it gladly. Probably even 3x ...
Unfortunately, it's still unlikely to be worth their time. Hobbyists can also be a real PITA (and time consuming) to deal with in terms of product support.

What's needed is an authorised dealer or two ;)

Mandres   10 mW

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by Mandres » Dec 20 2018 7:08pm

Punx0r wrote:
Dec 14 2018 5:40am
Mandres wrote:
Dec 11 2018 11:35am
Why wouldn't LG want to offer new cells to hobbyists? They could sell them at twice the market price (per the post above) and we would pay it gladly. Probably even 3x ...
Unfortunately, it's still unlikely to be worth their time. Hobbyists can also be a real PITA (and time consuming) to deal with in terms of product support.

What's needed is an authorised dealer or two ;)
If only it were that easy. Seems the big players won't sell to anyone but big fish OEMs. We really need someone in Guangdong ...

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