Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
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youyoung21147   100 mW

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Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by youyoung21147 » Dec 02 2018 9:37am

Hello,

I just came across these 2 datasheets on QB's website.

Both are clearly addressing the EV and residential storage market. E63 is ~240Wh/kg and C1.5S is ~170Wh/kg.

It seems like the 65Ah model is the current (or future ?) Renault Zoe battery cell : the datasheet explicitely mentions 22 and 43kW charging scenario equivalent to 115/224W per cell. That means a 46kWh battery pack with 192 cells. The Renault Zoe has a 192-cell, 41kWh pack ! Some other details speak for themselves, like the way the puncture tests are performed in a cell holder similar to the Zoe battery pack architecture.

I'm very pleased to see how detailed the datasheets are. All the characterization has been performed to cover EV use scenarios :
- Temperature dependance
- Cycle life
- Shelf life
- SoC = f(voltage) for BMS charging and remaining energy calculation algorithms
- Max charge current = f(SoC)
- Impedance

That litteraly means thousands of measurements !

Interestingly, Renault is now offering to sell its Zoe and Twizy with battery since April 2018, which is very close to this datasheet's release date (February 2018). Before that, the only option was to rent the battery.

I can only suspect that LG and Renault extensive characterization of the battery cells ageing during the last years has led to this kind of datasheet and also to a contract between Renault and LG to guarantee the cell performance in the field.

If QB's pricing is accurate (at 92USD/kWh), that would wean factory pricing between 50 and 75USD/kWh for the cells. Today, the insured value of the Zoe battery in case of crash is 7000€, that is ~200USD/kWh.

This is really good news for the EV market, more mature and well-qualified cells at a lower price.

I do hope someone here can get some of these cells and make a super EV or solar project with them :D
Attachments
LG C1.5S DATASHEET.doc
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lg e63.pdf
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Last edited by youyoung21147 on Dec 02 2018 1:11pm, edited 1 time in total.

yewsuck   10 mW

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by yewsuck » Dec 02 2018 10:33am

good read. thank you.

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by TilmanBaumann » Dec 02 2018 10:38am

Does anyone by any chance have the specs for the (I think) older cells?
2P 15Ah. Used in chevvy volt and Volvo v60

Those guys viewtopic.php?f=9&t=90395

I'm specifically looking for the max charge rate.
I suppose I can go at it with at least 1C perhaps 2C. But it would be risky to test that. :)


PS: I see the datasheet refers to constant power rather than constant current. I don't think I can set my charger/BMS to do that. But it seems to indicate that 1C is easily within range. Assuming my cells have a similar envelope.

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by youyoung21147 » Dec 02 2018 1:10pm

@TilmanBaumann

The most optimized way to charge LiIon cells is to use constant polarization voltage (20 to 100mV). All EV manufacturers use this method as the base for their charging algorithms. That's why the LG datasheet is so specific about SoC vs OCV. Betwwen 10 and 30% SoC, the cells can take huge charge current and that current has to be tapered down beyond that point. The intelligent charging algorithm implements some sort of adaptative multistage CC-CV-CC-CV-CC-CV-CC-CV profile based on many parameters (cell impedance, SoC, temperature...) It's like filling your stomach with food. The non-harmful speed depends on many parameters, mainly the fill level !

If you are interested in doing that with those undocumented cells, first plot the OCV vs mAh for these cells and make a charging program with 4 CC-CV regions (empty cell, 10-30%, 30-70%, 70-100%) that won't allow the charging voltage at a given mAh to exceed OCV+polarization voltage. That's a lot of work.

Or just extrapolate the charging profile in the LG datasheets and apply a 30-50% conservative derating.

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by Hillhater » Dec 11 2018 3:18am

youyoung21147 wrote:
Dec 02 2018 9:37am
If QB's pricing is accurate (at 92USD/kWh), that would wean factory pricing between 50 and 75USD/kWh for the cells.........
:shock: ..usd$92/kWh ??? Really !
That is 4 of those 63Ah cells for $92 !
Are you sure ?
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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by Pajda » Dec 11 2018 4:51am

Yes it is stated in the price list, but I am not sure how many cells you need to order as minimal amount.

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by Mandres » Dec 11 2018 10:53am

Someone needs to start a group buy. Who do we know at LG? :D
It's frustrating that we (hobbyists/enthusiasts) don't have access to a direct, reliable source of top quality pouch cells. I wonder why Farasis, LG, A123 are so loathe to sell directly to the public? Why do we have to scrimp and scavenge for our batteries like cockroaches. It seem like there's a huge opportunity here for these manufacturers, why don't they take advantage? Is it a national security issue? A liability/warranty issue? Do GM and other OEMs buy out their entire production capacity?

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by Pajda » Dec 11 2018 11:27am

Mandres wrote:
Dec 11 2018 10:53am
I wonder why Farasis, LG, A123 are so loathe to sell directly to the public?
Are you really expecting an answer? :mrgreen:

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by Mandres » Dec 11 2018 11:35am

Pajda wrote:
Dec 11 2018 11:27am
Mandres wrote:
Dec 11 2018 10:53am
I wonder why Farasis, LG, A123 are so loathe to sell directly to the public?
Are you really expecting an answer? :mrgreen:
expecting? Probably not, but I'm genuinely curious. The going rate for used EV cells is something like $150 /kwH on ebay, with no guarantees of condition or capacity. Why wouldn't LG want to offer new cells to hobbyists? They could sell them at twice the market price (per the post above) and we would pay it gladly. Probably even 3x ...

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by neptronix » Dec 11 2018 12:09pm

Hm, these aren't exceptionally good cells, but the 240whrs/kg type would be great for a low power conversion, IE a grocery getter subcompact that can only handle short jaunts on the freeway and such.

Yeah, it is a real shame that you could only buy these as pulled packs from a crashed car.
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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by Punx0r » Dec 14 2018 5:40am

Mandres wrote:
Dec 11 2018 11:35am
Why wouldn't LG want to offer new cells to hobbyists? They could sell them at twice the market price (per the post above) and we would pay it gladly. Probably even 3x ...
Unfortunately, it's still unlikely to be worth their time. Hobbyists can also be a real PITA (and time consuming) to deal with in terms of product support.

What's needed is an authorised dealer or two ;)

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by Mandres » Dec 20 2018 7:08pm

Punx0r wrote:
Dec 14 2018 5:40am
Mandres wrote:
Dec 11 2018 11:35am
Why wouldn't LG want to offer new cells to hobbyists? They could sell them at twice the market price (per the post above) and we would pay it gladly. Probably even 3x ...
Unfortunately, it's still unlikely to be worth their time. Hobbyists can also be a real PITA (and time consuming) to deal with in terms of product support.

What's needed is an authorised dealer or two ;)
If only it were that easy. Seems the big players won't sell to anyone but big fish OEMs. We really need someone in Guangdong ...

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by ecross » Aug 13 2019 12:22pm

TilmanBaumann wrote:
Dec 02 2018 10:38am
Does anyone by any chance have the specs for the (I think) older cells?
2P 15Ah. Used in chevvy volt and Volvo v60

Those guys viewtopic.php?f=9&t=90395

I'm specifically looking for the max charge rate.
I suppose I can go at it with at least 1C perhaps 2C. But it would be risky to test that. :)


PS: I see the datasheet refers to constant power rather than constant current. I don't think I can set my charger/BMS to do that. But it seems to indicate that 1C is easily within range. Assuming my cells have a similar envelope.

Hello,

have tested 2pcs. from the 15Ah LG Automotive cells and the cells are ok, the Ri is very low about 1mOhm. Have tested the cells with 1C and 2C, 15-30A chaging current, no problems, no heating.

The new LG E63 cells are interesting for me, do you have interesting to a groub buy? I need only approx. 26 cells!

BR

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by DogDipstick » Jan 21 2020 6:52pm

I got my hands on and am testing these E 63 cells. They are good. More data to come. I can get a whole lot.
84v of Ironhorse XC.. :) :bolt: by Chevy :bolt: :D You call .. that.. a "glitch:" ? :twisted: (...No Mom. The formula is Kaw > 1(Hr) = Impounded. The math checks out. I'll be fine. ).. :? Broke20Horsies! 17,830w !! :x 1 (pound / second) Hp = 338.24 M^2 Kg^2 / Sec^4 :twisted: ) :| isn't 13" x 27".. Oh nvrmnd :roll: 4+25% = 5 ; 5-20% = 4... 5(1-20%) = 4.. so, to correct the incorrect reading, of 4 ... 4(1+25%) = 5 :confused: Fabricator @BSECo. :( God. Damn. Slugs. :o

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by jonescg » Jun 08 2020 2:01am

DogDipstick wrote:
Jan 21 2020 6:52pm
I got my hands on and am testing these E 63 cells. They are good. More data to come. I can get a whole lot.
How did you get on sourcing more of these cells? I've been on the hunt and found them to be in short supply.

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by DogDipstick » Jun 08 2020 10:25am

jonescg wrote:
Jun 08 2020 2:01am

How did you get on sourcing more of these cells? I've been on the hunt and found them to be in short supply.
Well, kinda just spammed to all hell from battery suppliers, along with another friend of mine here in Philli, who has been spamming the spammers as hard as we can, asking for samples and prices all day. .... we have been accepting offers for samples. Just by promoting and whatnot.

I have a friend who put a big QS273 on a Ninja 250 with them. He likes them.

BHU had Bolt cells a while back. So does my friend in Philla, he has a place that he gets them. ...

I got GreenTec Auto, too. They get a ton of stuff and it is great getting the pick of the litter sometimes. Lol. GreenTec and BHU. ... Greentec likes ebailing me deals every now and again.
84v of Ironhorse XC.. :) :bolt: by Chevy :bolt: :D You call .. that.. a "glitch:" ? :twisted: (...No Mom. The formula is Kaw > 1(Hr) = Impounded. The math checks out. I'll be fine. ).. :? Broke20Horsies! 17,830w !! :x 1 (pound / second) Hp = 338.24 M^2 Kg^2 / Sec^4 :twisted: ) :| isn't 13" x 27".. Oh nvrmnd :roll: 4+25% = 5 ; 5-20% = 4... 5(1-20%) = 4.. so, to correct the incorrect reading, of 4 ... 4(1+25%) = 5 :confused: Fabricator @BSECo. :( God. Damn. Slugs. :o

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by jonescg » Jun 09 2020 3:28am

I found a vendor on Alibaba who claims to have LG pouch cells measuring 14 mm thick, 300 mm long and 100 mm wide, which matches an apparent LG 58.4 Ah cell. I say apparent, as I didn't know they made anything other than 63 Ah cells.
They are a great price and only low C-rate, but amazing energy density on paper - 250 Wh/kg. I'm wondering what the catch is...

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by Hillhater » Jun 09 2020 11:11pm

Has anyone found NEW cells at this $/kWh price point. Again ?
Do we know why these were offered at this price ?..superceeded technology ?, 2nds ?, bankrupt stock ?, etc ?
I know “industry. Sources”. Claim cell cost is under $100 /kWh but that is likely a “factory gate” cost , rather than retail price to Joe Public.
This forum owes its existence to Justin of ebikes.ca

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by jonescg » Jun 10 2020 12:07am

Alibaba suggests $25-$30 USD each, which is about $116 / kWh.
Are they genuine cells? Highly doubt it. Are they good enough? I bloody hope so :|

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by DogDipstick » Jun 10 2020 11:03am

Hillhater wrote:
Jun 09 2020 11:11pm
Has anyone found NEW cells at this $/kWh price point. Again ?
Do we know why these were offered at this price ?..superceeded technology ?, 2nds ?, bankrupt stock ?, etc ?
I know “industry. Sources”. Claim cell cost is under $100 /kWh but that is likely a “factory gate” cost , rather than retail price to Joe Public.
Tom Amerman at Battery Hook Up is your man. Allentown, Pa, and has a Cali store branch, I think. Endorsed to ship.
jonescg wrote:
Jun 10 2020 12:07am
Alibaba suggests $25-$30 USD each, which is about $116 / kWh.
Are they genuine cells? Highly doubt it. Are they good enough? I bloody hope so :|
.....it is all my friend. Really they take hims seriously. For real. I could try to hook you guys up with him, or just show you what we got. I been testing some here and there. They look New Unused.

They take him seriously, my Emoto friend here in Philla... He did order 60 hub motors a few months back, pre pandemic..., still waiting the order to be filled. He is a busy guy tho... did alot of charity work for the pandemic. Busy guy.

pm me and I'll see whats available.

Mr. Jones...: Ironically, one of the cells I tested fit that dimension..: Here are the logs on that cell ( that is supposedly available in masse). 2 cycles, 0.5C. Given as a sample with a picture of crates filled with them: As a "63Ah LG" cell. They only tested out to 57Ah so we didn't pursue them much. I did talk to alot of my chinese brokers ( Chen) about the stuff, and heard alot of mixxed stuff as to the orgin of the cell.

They test great, Imma build with them if I get more.

Thing is BHU has the N.2.1 LGX... Excellent price. Local and can ship. Plus the BHU reputation.

Im buying a bunch of domestic recycled Volt cells at the moment, ... so....
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84v of Ironhorse XC.. :) :bolt: by Chevy :bolt: :D You call .. that.. a "glitch:" ? :twisted: (...No Mom. The formula is Kaw > 1(Hr) = Impounded. The math checks out. I'll be fine. ).. :? Broke20Horsies! 17,830w !! :x 1 (pound / second) Hp = 338.24 M^2 Kg^2 / Sec^4 :twisted: ) :| isn't 13" x 27".. Oh nvrmnd :roll: 4+25% = 5 ; 5-20% = 4... 5(1-20%) = 4.. so, to correct the incorrect reading, of 4 ... 4(1+25%) = 5 :confused: Fabricator @BSECo. :( God. Damn. Slugs. :o

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by jonescg » Jun 10 2020 11:38pm

Welp, ordered 110 of the 60 Ah LG-like cells from Vodno. Will see how they go...

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by thoroughbred » Jun 11 2020 6:33am

jonescg wrote:
Jun 10 2020 11:38pm
Welp, ordered 110 of the 60 Ah LG-like cells from Vodno. Will see how they go...
These sort of match the dimensions you posted 308x102mm?
http://www.a123systems.com/automotive/products/cells/

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by jonescg » Jun 11 2020 6:54am

Yep, same dimensions, although these claim to be 60 Ah (give or take 5 Ah...)
I'll be encasing them and potting them, so they can only fail due to natural causes.

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by DogDipstick » Jun 11 2020 7:52am

Here is what we got offered. My buddy says they rock.
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84v of Ironhorse XC.. :) :bolt: by Chevy :bolt: :D You call .. that.. a "glitch:" ? :twisted: (...No Mom. The formula is Kaw > 1(Hr) = Impounded. The math checks out. I'll be fine. ).. :? Broke20Horsies! 17,830w !! :x 1 (pound / second) Hp = 338.24 M^2 Kg^2 / Sec^4 :twisted: ) :| isn't 13" x 27".. Oh nvrmnd :roll: 4+25% = 5 ; 5-20% = 4... 5(1-20%) = 4.. so, to correct the incorrect reading, of 4 ... 4(1+25%) = 5 :confused: Fabricator @BSECo. :( God. Damn. Slugs. :o

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Re: Leaked : New 26 and 65Ah LG cell datasheets for EV - LG E63 (Renault Zoe) and C1.5S

Post by jonescg » Jun 11 2020 8:52am

Awesome. I hold out hope :D

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