Help Me Decide Which Mid Drive Kit To Buy.

[o00scorpion00o]

Hi All, it's been a long time since I was on this forum.

I have an old 2013 Bosch Mid Drive Gen 1 and after several years absence from cycling I'm committed getting back on the saddle, due to working shift for 5.5 years, ( not any longer and never again ) and raising 2 Boys it's been a challenge to find the time but now they're older ( 9 and 7.5 years old ) I've decided to hit the road again mostly for the sake of my health.

It seems only like yesterday when I posted about the Bosch powered Haibike and posted pics and a few videos that would have disappeared since photobucket got silly.

I took the Haibike out this week for 7.5 miles on a fully charged battery and when I came back it hadn't loosed a single bar so the battery is still pretty good after 10 years and most of that it's been sitting at around 30-40% charge which may have helped but there' not many charges on it.

What really kills me is that I like to pedal a lot and the drag from that motor when the power is off is a killer and I hear several reports of this with mid drive motors.

I will never again buy a Euro handicapped ebike, it's ridiculous paying all that money for a 15.5 Mph cut off, always fighting the motor at the limit. I do not know why People would pay 3-6K Euro's for this !

50 Nm of torque is not a lot either.

Previous to this I had the wonderful Mac 8T and a 40 Amp controller modded to 50 amps and 16S lipo 66.6 V hot off the charger, 40 mph and around 3.5 Kw, 110 phase amps. It was an absolute monster, anyway I killed the Clutch, obviously, before Paul at em3ev had the upgraded clutches, he sent me one and it wouldn't fit so anyway I decided to get the Bosch powered bike.

I'm not a fan of torque sensing because I have knee issues and if I have to back off the pedals due to pain up a hill the motor doesn't give me the assistance I need but perhaps that's more to do with the low 50 Nm of torque.

Anyway, enough rambling but just wanted to give the information as to what I'm looking for now that I am so long off this forum.

I'm not looking for the mad performance of the Mac at the above power settings but looking for something a lot more powerful than the Bosch gen 1 that has no pedal resistance with the power off, this is very important to me. Something that can climb 12% without too much effort like the Mac 8T with stock 40 amp controller settings and 52 volts. This motor could climb 12% at almost 30 mph without breaking a sweat.

I am sad to learn that em3ev have abandoned the Mac motors because I probably would get one again if I could find one from such a reliable seller.

I should add that I want as light a motor as possible still providing good performance, the CYC PHOTON looks good except for the high price, 1000 Euro before the battery ?

Advice is welcome.

Thanks.

 

[raylo32]

If all you want is PAS cadence based sensing and a lot of power the Bafang BBSHD (1500W, ~150 torque) would probably be the way to go... or the BBS02 for less power (750W). Alternatively, the Tongshen TSDZ2 (750W) that comes with a torque sensor is a good bit weaker but still pretty good. And with the OSF you can change its mode of operation to pure cadence PAS if you like anytime right from the display. If you get a TSDZ2 get it configured with the cooling mods... or plan to do that yourself, otherwise will overheat on long hills. CYC Photon looks interesting and I have one on order. There are other options like CYC X1 Pro that have separate bottom brackets and motors linked by a secondary chain. I have a gen 2 version on one bike and it is plenty fast. Just noisy as compared to the others. Good luck.

 

[2old]

I've had excellent reliability for the last seven years with a BBS02 hardtail conversion. Since it's used only off road, I changed to a 30t front chainring and kept it as light as possible with an 11-17-28 freewheel spaced 8-speed and small battery.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

I've had excellent reliability for the last seven years with a BBS02 hardtail conversion. Since it's used only off road, I changed to a 30t front chainring and kept it as light as possible with an 11-17-28 freewheel spaced 8-speed and small battery.

I’ve heard the bbs02 is hard to pedal without motor power as I want to pedal a lot on my own I need as little resistance as possible with no power.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

I just wonder how the 750 watt TSDZ2 would perform Compared to the Bosch 50Nm ?

The TSDZ2 did interest me due to its size Ann’s weight.

The CYC Photon looks amazing but not the price and that’s before a battery.

 

[tomjasz]

BBSxx series motors have the best community support and excellent parts stream. A BBS02B will be a more reliable ride than the TSDZ2(b). Comparing Bosch to BBSxx motors is difficult. IME the BBS02 is faster and has more torque, and remember there's no right to repair with Bosch. ALL motors will have drag when trying to ride with the power off. You can change some BBSxx programming and ride with the motor on and the lowest possible PAS for exercise. IMO if you want to ride sans electrics, have a second bike.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

BBSxx series motors have the best community support and excellent parts stream. A BBS02B will be a more reliable ride than the TSDZ2(b). Comparing Bosch to BBSxx motors is difficult. IME the BBS02 is faster and has more torque, and remember there's no right to repair with Bosch. ALL motors will have drag when trying to ride with the power off. You can change some BBSxx programming and ride with the motor on and the lowest possible PAS for exercise. IMO if you want to ride sans electrics, have a second bike.

I was reading that the TSDZ2 are quite reliable and the B has a double clutch for better pedal efficiency with no motor power.

I can imagine it wouldn't be hard to beat the 50 Nm of the Bosch system.

I'm not looking for mega performance just much better than the Bosch, has to be light as possible.

My greatest fear now is that the pedal efficiency of the BBS02 won't be as good as the TSDZ2 "B" and the TSDZ2B is lighter, smaller, of course the BBS02 is the most powerful but it's not necissiarly what I'm after, I would like a lot more power than the Bosch with better pedal efficiency, The Bosch is a pig to pedal without assistance.

In an ideal world I could try out both.

The other issue is living on a small Island in the North Atlantic, it's difficult to get these motor kits, A BBSo2 will take over a month to arrive according to Amazon U.K, I can't order from the U.K unless they have adopted their websites for export which most have not since Brexit.

Although, I just looked at some specs, the 4.6 Kg BBS02 doesn't seem that bad, I guess it comes down to pedal efficiency, I don't intend to be doing much off roading if any and will probably use a trekking bike with skinny road tyres for better efficiency.

I have read from numerous sources that the TSDZ2 motors are more reliable. the "B" seems to be more powerful with double clutch ?

 

[o00scorpion00o]

OK "think" I'm leaning towards the BS02.

Are there any European dealers ?

 

[tomjasz]

I have read from numerous sources that the TSDZ2 motors are more reliable. the "B" seems to be more powerful with double clutch ?

It's difficult to sort a fair opinion by reading forum posts. My experience with TSDZ2 motors has been overall quite good. My build was with an early version. It now has around 4000 miles on the motor and I spent around $200 on repairs. I built the bike to review and it was a manufacturer's sample for possible addition to California eBike sales. I gave the finished bike to a fellow living rough and it's been ridden in some pretty extreme conditions in Minnesota. Temperatures range from -20C to 35C. The fellow lives on the Mississippi River. A very damp and humid environment.

I had two 2014 BBS01 36V 350W that lacked the improvements made over the years and they have about 3000 miles each. I've only replaced a speed sensor that was physically broken rather than a part failure. All they've gotten are routine lubrication and some detailed waterproofing.

My most recent mid-drive is another 36V but this time a 500W and a BBS01B. I appreciate the BBSxx series motors for the ease of finding the parts I might need for future repairs. With each motor, I typically buy the parts we might consider disposable and because I have them I hope there will be no downtime except for the time it takes to make repairs.

I've always recommended owning a spare seep sensor, throttle, and proprietary three-piece bearings. Because I'm not enamored by color displays I'm happy with the less expensive C965 and do keep a spare C965. I've had spare plastic gears in my parts box since 2014 and for every subsequent BBSxx motor I've owned. I have never replaced one. I did buy 2 of the blue plastic TSDZ2 gears for the fellow I gave the bike to.

BTW in 5 years of sales and support with California eBike the plastic gears were the slowest-selling repair part. The forums have greatly overblown the failure rate.

There's a TSDZ2 dealer in Nashville TN USA and they stock repair parts, and David is a square shooter. He and a friend with a TSDZ2 kit installer tell me the TSDZ2 has improved the motor and the most recent version is indeed a better motor. But since I have amassed far more experience and have all possible repair parts I stay with the BBSxx series from Bafang for my mid-drives.

There are several very reliable resellers of BBSxx parts. I have used greenbikekit.com since 2014. For personal as well as shop supplies. Anna has been VERY helpful.

However, I've found that mid-drives are more trouble than they are worth for a flat lander with few long or steep grads to ride. As a result, my newest builds are with MAC and Continental 9C motors. Original 9C motors are built by continental, not clones.

I did buy a Day6 Trike and will use the BBS01B on it since hub drives aren't the best choice for that frame geometry.

Eco cycles have a presence here in some of the TSDZ2 threads.

Have fun!

 

[o00scorpion00o]

It's difficult to sort a fair opinion by reading forum posts. My experience with TSDZ2 motors has been overall quite good. My build was with an early version. It now has around 4000 miles on the motor and I spent around $200 on repairs. I built the bike to review and it was a manufacturer's sample for possible addition to California eBike sales. I gave the finished bike to a fellow living rough and it's been ridden in some pretty extreme conditions in Minnesota. Temperatures range from -20C to 35C. The fellow lives on the Mississippi River. A very damp and humid environment.

I had two 2014 BBS01 36V 350W that lacked the improvements made over the years and they have about 3000 miles each. I've only replaced a speed sensor that was physically broken rather than a part failure. All they've gotten are routine lubrication and some detailed waterproofing.

My most recent mid-drive is another 36V but this time a 500W and a BBS01B. I appreciate the BBSxx series motors for the ease of finding the parts I might need for future repairs. With each motor, I typically buy the parts we might consider disposable and because I have them I hope there will be no downtime except for the time it takes to make repairs.

I've always recommended owning a spare seep sensor, throttle, and proprietary three-piece bearings. Because I'm not enamored by color displays I'm happy with the less expensive C965 and do keep a spare C965. I've had spare plastic gears in my parts box since 2014 and for every subsequent BBSxx motor I've owned. I have never replaced one. I did buy 2 of the blue plastic TSDZ2 gears for the fellow I gave the bike to.

BTW in 5 years of sales and support with California eBike the plastic gears were the slowest-selling repair part. The forums have greatly overblown the failure rate.

There's a TSDZ2 dealer in Nashville TN USA and they stock repair parts, and David is a square shooter. He and a friend with a TSDZ2 kit installer tell me the TSDZ2 has improved the motor and the most recent version is indeed a better motor. But since I have amassed far more experience and have all possible repair parts I stay with the BBSxx series from Bafang for my mid-drives.

There are several very reliable resellers of BBSxx parts. I have used greenbikekit.com since 2014. For personal as well as shop supplies. Anna has been VERY helpful.

However, I've found that mid-drives are more trouble than they are worth for a flat lander with few long or steep grads to ride. As a result, my newest builds are with MAC and Continental 9C motors. Original 9C motors are built by continental, not clones.

I did buy a Day6 Trike and will use the BBS01B on it since hub drives aren't the best choice for that frame geometry.

Eco cycles have a presence here in some of the TSDZ2 threads.

Have fun!

I like that Eco Cycles sell the motors with the open source firmware.

I haven't found any European sellers with this motor that are not redirecting to a Chinese site of some sort.

Unfortunately I can't find any Mac motors since em3ev stopped selling them, my old MAC 8T was a fantastic motor even at 52 V @ 40 amp controller or around 2 Kw it would climb 12% at around 45-50 Km/hr, throttle only, forget exactly, maybe my old thread here from around 2011 might still be there I don't know but I remember giving all the details in that. You can't beat the smoothness of a hub.

It didn't take too long then I wanted to see what that MAC 8T could do so I modded the controller for 50 amps, went to 16S LiPo ( 66.6 v hot off the charger ) got the programming cable and set the phase amps from 90 - 110 amps, the battery power was around 3.5 Kw if I remember correctly, the cycle analyst showed higher peak power but it was an absolute animal and the only thing that died was the clutch, the gears were perfect. The old Grey gears. A new beefier clutch came out too late for me, paul @ em3ev sent me one of the newer gen clutches but it wouldn't fit and so I decommissioned the bike and got the Bosch and it felt dead by comparison, 50 Nm and E.U handicapped = boring lol but I did like the Bosch Torque system in the beginning.

I could probably have saved the clutch for longer had I been more gentle on the throttle.

After the MAC motor I went back to my even older conhismotor direct drive hub which I think was similar to the 9C, I can't remember what I did, I think I went for higher voltage but the power was around 5 Kw and I remember seeing something like 9 Kw peaks if I remember correctly, it absolutely flew.

Yeah, I think if I could find someone selling a MAC 8T I would go that route again because I am familliar with it and remember it was great to pedal without motor power unlike the Bosch 1st Gen 50 Nm, it's a total pig to pedal without power.

You mentioned "your newest builds with MAC" where did you get the MAC ?

 

[tomjasz]

i bought several 10T from Paul just before he stopped selling MAC. Won’t Cutler MAC do a one time single motor sale?

 

[o00scorpion00o]

i bought several 10T from Paul just before he stopped selling MAC. Won’t Cutler MAC do a one time single motor sale?

Sending PM.

 

[yantra yatra]

I would suggest checking out the TO7 motors. They are taking a while to get to market, so there’s no review yet, but have a look at the specs and they may be of interest. There is always the throttle option if needed on a torque sensing bike as well.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

I would suggest checking out the TO7 motors. They are taking a while to get to market, so there’s no review yet, but have a look at the specs and they may be of interest. There is always the throttle option if needed on a torque sensing bike as well.

I ordered the TSDZ2B earlier this morning, I don't know anything about the TO7 yet, I don't think they're available ?

I was thinking about going with the MAC again, I know a friend with one and the axle twisted in the dropout because his torque arm failed, it damaged all the wiring. I had told him to put 2 on it but he wouldn't listen anyway, I took a look and it was going to be too much hassle to fix so after a lot of thinking I said I would just order the TSDZ2B and be done with it or I'll be another week trying to decide.

I ordered the 750 watt version and bought a em3ev 52v battery and 5 amp charger, I would trust em3ev a lot more than the optional kit battery that would come with the motor. 52v and 17.5 Ah 30 amp limit, more than enough. Won't even need to charge it beyond 80% I reckon.

I reckon if the motor does indeed have 80 Nm torque I should be happy enough, more power is always good and if it can pedal with much less resistance without motor power than the Bosch then I'll be happy enough.

If it doesn't work out I can always sell it or the whole bike and build another lol.

The shipping from China is expensive. Pity em3ev do not have a European store.

So now I wait, I might have the battery by next weekend and the motor should arrive around the middle of next week from France, that's the joy of living on a small Island, stuff is harder to get and takes longer to arrive.

It will be good to work on it with my 7.5 and 9 year old Sons.

 

[raylo32]

That's really fast shipping on the battery. I have got two from EM3EV and each took like 4 to 6 weeks to the US. But we do get these motors in a day or 2 from several dealers here.

I ordered the TSDZ2B earlier this morning, I don't know anything about the TO7 yet, I don't think they're available ?

I was thinking about going with the MAC again, I know a friend with one and the axle twisted in the dropout because his torque arm failed, it damaged all the wiring. I had told him to put 2 on it but he wouldn't listen anyway, I took a look and it was going to be too much hassle to fix so after a lot of thinking I said I would just order the TSDZ2B and be done with it or I'll be another week trying to decide.

I ordered the 750 watt version and bought a em3ev 52v battery and 5 amp charger, I would trust em3ev a lot more than the optional kit battery that would come with the motor. 52v and 17.5 Ah 30 amp limit, more than enough. Won't even need to charge it beyond 80% I reckon.

I reckon if the motor does indeed have 80 Nm torque I should be happy enough, more power is always good and if it can pedal with much less resistance without motor power than the Bosch then I'll be happy enough.

If it doesn't work out I can always sell it or the whole bike and build another lol.

The shipping from China is expensive. Pity em3ev do not have a European store.

So now I wait, I might have the battery by next weekend and the motor should arrive around the middle of next week from France, that's the joy of living on a small Island, stuff is harder to get and takes longer to arrive.

It will be good to work on it with my 7.5 and 9 year old Sons.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

That's really fast shipping on the battery. I have got two from EM3EV and each took like 4 to 6 weeks to the US. But we do get these motors in a day or 2 from several dealers here.

I'm hoping it arrives by next weekend lol maybe I'm being very optimistic but I'm basing this on the last time I ordered from em3ev.

4-6 weeks hopefully not :-O

 

[Ianane]

Since you've gone for the TSDZ2, a word of warning for hills... low gears highish (C 80 - 85) cadence. If you get much above C90 the motor assistance fades. As one reviewer of e-bike motors said, electric motors are designed to spin, if you use high gears, and low cadence the energy that would be spinning the motor goes to heat, and TSDZ2 motors don't have good heat dissaption and the heat demagnatises the motors and reduces their efficacy. I wish I new this when I got mine... I worked mine hard at about C70 and cooked it. It still works but not so good.
I've recently flashed the mbrusa OSF - After a year, (to see the warrantee out), and 5000+ kms, ... details for the OSF on this site in another thread. I recommend it. The feature I like the most is being able to program Street Mode default (which is a genuine 250w max setting), but with the double click of the lights button I can switch it to a more realistic, 'brand name motor' power assistance setting. The advantage here is being able to up the assistance cut-off speed. I have mine set at about 32kph.
More realistic because it compares to the '250 watt continuous' power delivery of Bosch, Yamaha and Shimano.
Sadly, I can't really review the mbrusa OSF on a 'new' motor as I only have a cooked motor now. I have a couple of boxes of spares I bought from a fellow so I have swapped the motor over but I need to re-install it. I think the 'sprag clutch' is on the way out now but I won't know until I install it.
I got mine because I commute down and up about 500m over 12 to 15 kms... depending on route.
I've tried Bafang Hub motors (250w rated), Bosch performance line CX, Shimano Steps e8000, and Giant/Yamaha Core motors over the same routes and they all out perfom my cooked TSDZ2 motor, by about 3-4 kph up one route of about 7kms at a steady 6 to 7% incline.
On lower percentages and undulating roads the TSDZ2 is more comparable, mostly due to being able to up the top speed of assistance.
I have speed limited a '500w' hub motor to 28kph which has a 30amp controller and it blitzes all other bikes I've ridden on my routes except one route, which has a series of ramps that rapidly go up from 7% to above 20% in 'steps'. To be sure, none of the motors like this kind of incline but the name brand mid-drive motors deal with it the best as long as I working a lower gear and spin my legs. I have not had enough confidence in the TSDZ2 motor to take it up this beast of a route.
Long story short.
Of my two personal options, I prefer riding the TSDZ2 over the Bafang Hub even though the Bafang Hub is more powerfull and more reliable.
My driveway is steep and gets steep about 3 meters from my garage. The TSDZ2, with torque sensing, gives me instant assistance to get up the drive... the Bafang takes longer to help as it waits for the cadence sensor to 'switch it on'.
The TSDZ2 is more efficient so I get more range from my battery and it just feels better to ride.
It is no match for the quality and relability of Bosch, Yamaha, Shimano and Brose but if you're not climbing 500m everyday, it doesn't need to be.
I'm now dreaming of a CYC Photon but first I want to exhaust my patience with all the parts I have and the TSDZ2.
I record my commutes on strava, Ian Bourne, and each commute is edited for bike. Probably best to choose a highlighted 'segment' and campare the times. I wasn't on Strava when i was borrowing the Shimano Steps fitted bike but it was easily comparable the the Bosch CX.

 

[docw009]

I've installed two BBS02B's and one TSDZ2. None of these have any significant drag on the pedals, My first BBS02B will spin the pedals a few times with no chain if I flip them. The second one and the TSDZ2 are stiffer, not even going a half turn, but they are newish. While riding, I cannot discern any drag. I have a TSDZ2B in a box, not installed. It has really a stiff axle. It will not spin freely at all, but I'm told that is a QC problem with a rubber gasket under the crank binding against the case.

From what I read, these should be called TSDQ2's, with DQ meaning defective quality, Nothing has gone wrong with mine yet, after 1000km, so my fingers are crossed.

 

[richj8990]

OK "think" I'm leaning towards the BS02.

Are there any European dealers ?

How can they import into Europe if the nominal watts of a Bafang is at least 750W. That's not legal there.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

How can they import into Europe if the nominal watts of a Bafang is at least 750W. That's not legal there.

Can't stop people riding off road with any power they want.

Besides, Bosch, Brose, Panasonic, Yamaha are all well above 250 watts if not close to 1 Kw or even above for the most powerful "legal" biles.

There's a reason non of the big ebike manufacturers with the big brand motors allow anyone to see the power in watts on their bikes like most of the diy ebike kits.

The only real concern is acceleration and cut off speed, only this is adhered to I can't see there being an issue and of course we're not allowed a throttle in the Europe either.

 

[o00scorpion00o]

I got the new bike yesterday and fitted the motor. It was a bit of a pain because the gear change cables were in the way so I had to take the cover off the motor and then it fitted perfectly. I put the cover back on of course.

Next step is to install all the cabling which will be a bit of a pain because it's so long.

The em3ev 52v battery is supposed to arrive tomorrow according to UPS but being UPS I'll believe it when I see it.

I have a very strong feeling this motor is going to be as much of a pain to pedal without power like the bosch, there feels like a lot of resistance when I try turn it with my hand......