CYC PHOTON

Well, here's a video that Photon owners will not want to see:


Turn the sound up a bit, in real life it is very obvious. Sounds like controller failure to me.

(Edit - to clarify this is my bike and video :-( )

Anyone else experienced this with any CYC (or other) product?

From the description:

CYC Photon with light use (never over 750W and usually down at 200-500W max, and with 80% torque limit) and 190km of distance has just today started making a very loud and obvious noise when running. This noise only occurs when the motor is powered, and is most obvious when starting but continues and is somewhat masked by the gear noise when running. At rest, when the system is powered on, provided the throttle has a dead zone, there is no noise.

Motor otherwise seems to be performing normally and no evidence of high temps.

I have the system set to default values via the Ride Control app, and there are no error codes.

The noise sounds like arcing, could possibly be a mechanical output from the motor caused by an ouput signal from a failing controller. It seems too consistent to be actual arcing. Because the noise is transmitted through the bike frame, my first action was to check the battery for an electrical fault, but this is definitely the motor. It is loud enough to sound as if it is emanating from the headset!

This noise has just started happening and is an alarming issue for such a new and very expensive system.

This will be a good test of CYC and how they handle this situation. I put a lot of faith in them when making this purchase and to have something like this happen as an early supporter of the Photon is incredibly disappointing.
 
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Well, here's a video that Photon owners will not want to see:


Turn the sound up a bit, in real life it is very obvious. Sounds like controller failure to me.

(Edit - to clarify this is my bike and video :-( )

Anyone else experienced this with any CYC (or other) product?

From the description:
In-country vendor (I hope, I hope)?

I'm undecided on the sound, but from my remote screen I'd guess mechanical, and I'd pull the chainring and look for contamination.

Lemme ask you this: at a standstill, does your motor make a very subtle whirring sound that increases as you up the assist level? As if the core is turning very slowly or something. Mine does. I have the throttle power setting unrestricted and 2kw in level 3, with 400/800/1200 watts PAS.

Has anybody else been wondering if we're supposed to be greasing any part of these motors (other than the spindle during the installation), aka Bafang BBS-style?
 
In-country vendor (I hope, I hope)?
No. Long story, but we do now have a local distributor in NZ. Even on the same island as me :)

I emailed CYC early on and specifically asked about the best way to get the Photon in NZ, the email was ignored.

A few weeks later I ordered the motor.

About 2 weeks after that, CYC replied to a similar question I'd asked in the comments on one of their YouTube vids, saying that CYC has a distributor in NZ.

I was pretty peed off, because buying locally would have been quicker and saved several $100's

For those interested, Venture Scooters in Matamata is the NZ distributor.

I'm undecided on the sound, but from my remote screen I'd guess mechanical, and I'd pull the chainring and look for contamination.
Unlikely, the noise occurs at stand still with nothing rotating.
Lemme ask you this: at a standstill, does your motor make a very subtle whirring sound that increases as you up the assist level? As if the core is turning very slowly or something. Mine does. I have the throttle power setting unrestricted and 2kw in level 3, with 400/800/1200 watts PAS.

Has anybody else been wondering if we're supposed to be greasing any part of these motors (other than the spindle during the installation), aka Bafang BBS-style?
I don't think there is any access or instructions for maintenance. Guess I'm about to find out...
 
Have you contacted CYC? Did you receive an acknowledgment of receipt?
Yes, I'm pretty sure they've seen the video by now :) Its had about 100 views in less than 24hrs. CYC need more other videos on YT...

Received a reply from customer support very promptly, they've kicked it over to tech support but I haven't heard back from them yet.

Hoping to perhaps get more suggestions or background from here to be more informed when working with them.
Did they ask you for more info?
Not yet, but I will record the sound and have a look at the waveform at some stage. Probably useful information there.
200 km with our two motors and no trouble.
Yeah, mine was great for the first 190km too :)
I'm waiting to see their diagnosis and the solution.
Me too... if it includes disassembly from the bike, shipping both ways, replacement and reinstallation I'm going to be very disappointed.
Good luck.
Thanks. This is really concerning, this motor has had very little use and very light use, a bit of dust and a few light mud splashes, and not even used for extended periods over harsh terrain.
 
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Photon Failure:

Here's a frequency spectrum analysis via Audacity, this may perhaps mean something to those familiar with these controllers?

Photon Fail Spectrum.png
 
Me too... if it includes disassembly from the bike, shipping both ways, replacement and reinstallation I'm going to be very disappointed.

But what else do you expect? Magic firmware update fixing physical malfunction in controller or technician flying from HK to NZ to diagnose your issue?

Anyway. Thank you for your BETA testing of this motor. Personally I will wait for Photon Gen2 ...
 
Sorry for the trouble you're experiencing @hindesite, hopefully CYC will come to the rescue - not something that Bafang or Tongsheng could ever bother themselves with, AFAIK. CYC better support us, at their price point.

Yep, we beta test the good, bad, and ugly.

I continue to run my Photon motor hard, hot, and heavily loaded, on the throttle, unrestricted. If it can't take it, I want it to break now, and not on the leisurely & long (but away from home) 300+ mile ride this motor was purchased for. Of course, there are no assurances it won't fail, now and not then. I'm also exercising with the torque assist, and really like how it operates.

I think I'm past 600 miles in short rides, but I've been swapping displays. Maybe the app keeps track of the totals.
 
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@hindesite My guess would be a MOSFET or driver, why, I had a washing machine with a 3 phase motor that made a similar arcing sound before the driver board went POP. The motor would spin up but make a similar weird arcing sound before it started to spin and at slow speeds. I thought it was as first brushes until I opened the machine and realised it was a 3 phase motor - no brushes. You could try with a stick to listen to the controller, motor and gearbox ends and identify where it's coming from. Use the stick against your ear as you do when ID'ing car engine noises ...
 
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The sprague cluch has been replaced at least four times.
Several bearings have been replaced.
The torque sensor assembly has been replaced 3 times.
Frequent cleaning and lubrication.
  • What was the sprague clutch's failure mode? Gradual or sudden? If sudden, did it strand you by making the bike un-pedalable?
  • Did the sprague clutch failures occur at about the same miles? I am thinking in terms of pre-emptive replacements.
  • When cleaning & lubricating, did you just put grease on everything that moved? I have seen one thread where it sounded like grease between the pinion and blue gear caused slippage problems.
 
@hindesite My guess would be a MOSFET or driver, why, I had a washing machine with a 3 phase motor that made a similar arcing sound before the driver board went POP. The motor would spin up but make a similar weird arcing sound before it started to spin and at slow speeds. I thought it was as first brushes until I opened the machine and realised it was a 3 phase motor - no brushes. You could try with a stick to listen to the controller, motor and gearbox ends and identify where it's coming from. Use the stick against your ear as you do when ID'ing car engine noises ...
No need, the motor is so well connected to the frame that the whole bike is a sounding board; however it isn't relevant where the noise is actually coming from. The motor essentially works like a speaker in this situation. and a phone is better than a stick, these days ;)
 
But what else do you expect? Magic firmware update fixing physical malfunction in controller
That is EXACTLY what I expect. There is no evidence at this stage that this is 100% certainly a hardware failure so the first step should be to re-install/update the firmware. The system runs normally and the issue started after saving some changes to settings.

Second step would be to replace the controller, which looks easy enough.

From there, we'll see.
Anyway. Thank you for your BETA testing of this motor. Personally I will wait for Photon Gen2 ...
No problem, but less snark and more encouragement would be appreciated.

Some of us don't want to wait. It is later than you think.
 
Why are you asking on this forum for a solution to your problem knowing that currently no one has mechanical experience with the Photon motor?
Because in general terms there is nothing special about this motor; lots of people here have experience with these types of systems.

A comment on my video described a very similar issue with a BBS and it resolution, may well also apply here.
You have the chance to communicate with the technical service of the manufacturer. Why not wait for their diagnosis?
Because the more relevant information I can give them the more likely I'll get a decent result. I'm still waiting, BTW...
Note: Try to communicate with the technical department of Tongsheng Co. and you will let me know.
What is the relevance of Tongsheng tech dept to my issue? And should I DM you?
If they can diagnose the problem, they might be open to sending you the part and allowing you to do the repair as per their instruction.
Maybe, we'll see. That might be a step in the process.
You seem to be claiming that all Photon motors will have this problem at 200km.
I've made no such claim. I will claim that all of the motors I have failed before 200km though.
Today we have 300km on each of our two engines and everything is fine. On other forums, users arrive at 1000km and are still satisfied.
Sweet :)
Nobody here knows the sales statistics of the Photon motor.
Go look at the number of downloads for the CYC Ride Control app. It was 500 when I wrote the first review! You can draw reasonable conclusions from that.
Nobody here knows the percentage of Photon motors with a technical problem.
And following your logic, if nobody posted about their issues here, we wouldn't even know there were problems. Forums and social media are a hugely important tool for customers to hold manufacturers available and get products improved. It is ridiculous to not use it. The Photon would not exist without them.
Speculators and big talkers only make BLA BLA.
Agree, yet here I am, an actual user posting about actual experiences, both good and bad. Defies belief, doesn't it...
Being able to communicate with a technical service of a manufacturer is part of the purchase price.
Communicating in this forum is free. Thanks for your encouragement and help.
 
Sorry for the trouble you're experiencing @hindesite, hopefully CYC will come to the rescue - not something that Bafang or Tongsheng could ever bother themselves with, AFAIK. CYC better support us, at their price point.
Thanks, I hope so too. The other manufacturers probably did support better in the early days but they do now have a decent online community and third parties involved. And they are both now a bit distracted but for different reasons, Bafang has grown beyond expectations and moving in new directions and Tongshen, shall we say, has had some setbacks ;)
Yep, we beta test the good, bad, and ugly.

I continue to run my Photon motor hard, hot, and heavily loaded, on the throttle, unrestricted. If it can't take it, I want it to break now, and not on the leisurely & long (but away from home) 300+ mile ride this motor was purchased for. Of course, there are no assurances it won't fail, now and not then. I'm also exercising with the torque assist, and really like how it operates.

I think I'm past 600 miles in short rides, but I've been swapping displays. Maybe the app keeps track of the totals.
Been very impressed with this motor, it really has been a game changer in terms of where I ride - both in climbing ability and distance. I do have a specific trip planned for it in about 6 months, not particularly long but very high with lots of climbing. Many people helibike it.
 
That is EXACTLY what I expect. There is no evidence at this stage that this is 100% certainly a hardware failure so the first step should be to re-install/update the firmware. The system runs normally and the issue started after saving some changes to settings.

Second step would be to replace the controller, which looks easy enough.

From there, we'll see.

No problem, but less snark and more encouragement would be appreciated.

Some of us don't want to wait. It is later than you think.
I will disapoint you but cyc does not just send x6p controllers if your unit dies in photon. Few weeks ago we had user on Polish forum WHO was able to fry his photon just by connecting cyc battery.(imagine waiting months for motor and kill IT just after installation lol) According to cyc mosfets were killed and they told him to send back whole unit to HK.
 
That is EXACTLY what I expect. There is no evidence at this stage that this is 100% certainly a hardware failure so the first step should be to re-install/update the firmware. The system runs normally and the issue started after saving some changes to settings.

Second step would be to replace the controller, which looks easy enough.

From there, we'll see.
I dont know why you are presuming to tell Cyc engineers how to proceed. If you insist the unit is faulty beyond what you have changed in the settings to cause the noise and irreversable, then you should contact Cyc for warranty claim. No doubt they will request that you send the unit back for assesment before deciding wether it is a genuine fault covered under the warranty before replacing it.

What is it with Cyc customers that they think they should be sent brand new units/parts just on their say so that they think the original is not working how they think it should without the need to send back the warranty parts first for inspection.

Are you telling us everything here as it seems strange that when you contacted Cyc they did not ask you to send them the unit so it can be inspected and assesed for a warranty claim before sending out a new one, or price to repair the old one if it is user abuse/damage. Is it the case that you are insisting that they send you free replacements without you returning the faulty parts first and that is why there has been a delay in the warranty process? A process that is clearly stated on the website. You send them back the faulty one and if it is under warranty they will replace it.

I also do not know why you are posting here instead of dealing with Cyc, or do you think that it will somehow help you in getting a free brand new Photon sent out. By highlighting it here you are just encouraging other Photon users to do the same and abuse their Photons so it will fail sooner than later in order to insist on a brand new one being sent out as a 'spare' before the 2yr warranty ends 'because Hindesite managed to fudge and harass for a free replacement, I expect the same'.

I hope Cyc are strict in adhering to the warranty process otherwise it just encourages users to falsly claim free parts because 'why not' and I heaard on a certain forum 'everyone is doing it'

I should add that I am in no way suggesting you are trying to get free spares, but maybe your warranty claim would go more smoothly and quickly in the long run if you followed the process as asked by Cyc
 
Sorry for the trouble you're experiencing @hindesite, hopefully CYC will come to the rescue - not something that Bafang or Tongsheng could ever bother themselves with, AFAIK. CYC better support us, at their price point.

Yep, we beta test the good, bad, and ugly.

I continue to run my Photon motor hard, hot, and heavily loaded, on the throttle, unrestricted. If it can't take it, I want it to break now, and not on the leisurely & long (but away from home) 300+ mile ride this motor was purchased for. Of course, there are no assurances it won't fail, now and not then. I'm also exercising with the torque assist, and really like how it operates.

I think I'm past 600 miles in short rides, but I've been swapping displays. Maybe the app keeps track of the totals.
I hope you are prepared for the down time in sending the motor back for a warranty claim befor they send out a replacement if is not deemed user abuse (sounds likely), or do you also expect them to send you a free spare motor.
 
I hope you are prepared for the down time in sending the motor back for a warranty claim befor they send out a replacement if is not deemed user abuse (sounds likely), or do you also expect them to send you a free spare motor.
No. I'm not expecting CYC, or the vendor I purchased the motor from to send me a free spare motor. Nor would I expect such over the top support when buying any product. I expect and hope CYC honors their two year warranty, via the commonly accepted practices that protect all parties involved. I also hope that, for some failure conditions, CYC or my in-country vendor will send replacement parts, under the typical exchange agreement terms.

For my Bafang BBS powered bikes I have complete spare motors on the shelf - even though my vendor, in one case, repaired a motor under their good faith support concept, and in another, sent out an exchange part. If I end up upgrading more of my bikes with CYC motors, and depending on failure rates/types, I may consider purchasing a spare.

Do you feel I'm abusing my Photon motor by running to maximum power as designed, within the confines defined by the CYC settings, but never lugging it down in an impossible gear? I don't.
 
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I dont know why you are presuming to tell Cyc engineers how to proceed. If you insist the unit is faulty beyond what you have changed in the settings to cause the noise and irreversable, then you should contact Cyc for warranty claim. No doubt they will request that you send the unit back for assesment before deciding wether it is a genuine fault covered under the warranty before replacing it.

What is it with Cyc customers that they think they should be sent brand new units/parts just on their say so that they think the original is not working how they think it should without the need to send back the warranty parts first for inspection.

Are you telling us everything here as it seems strange that when you contacted Cyc they did not ask you to send them the unit so it can be inspected and assesed for a warranty claim before sending out a new one, or price to repair the old one if it is user abuse/damage. Is it the case that you are insisting that they send you free replacements without you returning the faulty parts first and that is why there has been a delay in the warranty process? A process that is clearly stated on the website. You send them back the faulty one and if it is under warranty they will replace it.

I also do not know why you are posting here instead of dealing with Cyc, or do you think that it will somehow help you in getting a free brand new Photon sent out. By highlighting it here you are just encouraging other Photon users to do the same and abuse their Photons so it will fail sooner than later in order to insist on a brand new one being sent out as a 'spare' before the 2yr warranty ends 'because Hindesite managed to fudge and harass for a free replacement, I expect the same'.

I hope Cyc are strict in adhering to the warranty process otherwise it just encourages users to falsly claim free parts because 'why not' and I heaard on a certain forum 'everyone is doing it'

I should add that I am in no way suggesting you are trying to get free spares, but maybe your warranty claim would go more smoothly and quickly in the long run if you followed the process as asked by Cyc
I've checked history of your posts and all posts in this forum are in the same tone. You always DEFEND CYC no matter what and tell people to literally shut up and not discuss any issues with cyc motors publicly. You must be a company fanboy or most likely just a CYC employee doing this stupid PR-stuff. (It is funny that you always write Cyc instead of just cyc).

You better ask your overlords when will they start sending X6 controller to customers god dammit!
 
With the same 48 volt battery the CYC Photon motor gives me 10 km more than with my TSDZ2 motor.
Even with a low residual voltage of 43 volts the torque remains linear.
The setting is Race at level 1.
With an ambient temperature of 20C the engine does not exceed 45C. (On the paved road off course)
I adjusted the sensitivity of the torque sensor to the maximum. Low sensitivity tends to work by pulsation.
Engine noise is low and pleasant.
I would like to compare it with a Bosch system. But I did never drive one.
Is that an extra 10km on a 20km ride or a 100km one?
 
I dont know why you are presuming to tell Cyc engineers how to proceed.
Strange, I don't recall sharing the details of my communications with CYC with you, so what you say might be true. IE, you don't know.

If you insist the unit is faulty beyond what you have changed in the settings to cause the noise and irreversable, then you should contact Cyc for warranty claim. No doubt they will request that you send the unit back for assesment before deciding wether it is a genuine fault covered under the warranty before replacing it.
No, they won't.

Normal procedure in these situations is:
  1. turn if off and on again
  2. reset to defaults
  3. reinstall or update firmware
So your "no doubt" statement and all that follows is wrong.
What is it with Cyc customers that they think they should be sent brand new units/parts just on their say so that they think the original is not working how they think it should without the need to send back the warranty parts first for inspection.

Are you telling us everything here as it seems strange that when you contacted Cyc they did not ask you to send them the unit so it can be inspected and assesed for a warranty claim before sending out a new one, or price to repair the old one if it is user abuse/damage. Is it the case that you are insisting that they send you free replacements without you returning the faulty parts first and that is why there has been a delay in the warranty process? A process that is clearly stated on the website. You send them back the faulty one and if it is under warranty they will replace it.
Wow, meanwhile in the real world, commonsense prevails. I made no such demands; and to quite clear and to avoid maligning CYC as you have just done, there hasn't been any delay in the warranty process.
I also do not know why you are posting here instead of dealing with Cyc, or do you think that it will somehow help you in getting a free brand new Photon sent out.
That is a very personally offensive claim to make, with no basis in reality. Again.
By highlighting it here you are just encouraging other Photon users to do the same and abuse their Photons so it will fail sooner than later in order to insist on a brand new one being sent out as a 'spare' before the 2yr warranty ends 'because Hindesite managed to fudge and harass for a free replacement, I expect the same'.
What an imagination you have. So many predictions into the future, based on nothing that has happened in the past.
I hope Cyc are strict in adhering to the warranty process otherwise it just encourages users to falsly claim free parts because 'why not' and I heaard on a certain forum 'everyone is doing it'

I should add that I am in no way suggesting you are trying to get free spares, but maybe your warranty claim would go more smoothly and quickly in the long run if you followed the process as asked by Cyc
TBH, you need to go ride your bike, I think.

Meanwhile I'll circle back around to a few things.

How a company deals with faults and issues is up to them, and they probably don't need your help with how to do it. I'm not sure customers appreciate your advice, either. I have in the past dealt with a wide range of product issues and the responses have ranged from not great to fantastic - and generally the smaller companies are more responsive to getting things sorted and for that reason alone I tend to support them. I also tend towards products with open source or third party firmware or software support.

In the past I've been sent firmware or software versions to fix problems without having to return an item; I've been sent parts at no cost, and out of warranty, to repair an action camera (which required soldering skills, too, and no, of course it wasn't GoPro) so how companies deal with product issues varies wildly from your dreamworld approach.

The most ironic item, and which I've saved for last, is that the very bike that my CYC motor is fitted to, is one that the manufacturer sent me a replacement frame for at no charge, even including a new Dub BB. They didn't require the old frame back for inspection and were happy to accept my documentation.


I could imagine (though in no way implying this is the case) but if a manufacturer knew there was a specific and easily identifiable issue with a part, they might well prefer to ship the part out rather than deal with the logistics of receiving repairing and shipping entire motors and that might suit some customers.

Obviously, when dealing with manufacturers, YMMV. In your case, I imagine, by quite a bit.
 
Well, here's a video that Photon owners will not want to see:

Update: CYC have left a comment on the video, which I have pinned. It reads:

Hi guys. Please note that this is not due to any damaged hardware or electrical components. It's due to some finetuning of the motor which we are currently busy with and will be released in a firmware update soon. This firmware update will be available to everyone and will be done remotely via app.
Two other people have similar experiences, one with a BBS which was fixed by firmware, and another with a Photon who reports no detrimental effects at 600km.

CYC have been pretty quick to respond and I stand behind my decision to post about this in this forum; this will reassure others who encounter this noise and helps make CYCs approach to it transparent. If people don't post about issues they encounter, or even face negativity from some people in this forum for doing so, we lose a lot of the value of social media, ie the ability to share problems and solutions.

And now we all know there is a firmware update imminent :)
 
Here in EU even resellers for example fasterbikes.eu do not have Photons in stock. This looks very alarming...
Perhaps I made a mistake purchasing X6 controller for my stealth gen1 from CYC . Maybe I should just buy a new ASI BAC855 instead (assuming that any ASI BAC855 works with CYC STEALTH gen1)
Not sure if it means that they have Photons in stock if they say shipping takes only 15 workdays? So they might have warehouse somewhere closer than Hong Kong then? Hard to understand which dealer is the best to use in Europe or just use the cyc website directly.
 
Interesting. I have a Photon on order from a USA dealer for a new build and hope it comes with the new firmware. It is on long backorder so I suppose it should have the new FW by the time I see it. But if not, it should be easy to update via the app.

Update: CYC have left a comment on the video, which I have pinned. It reads:

And now we all know there is a firmware update imminent :)
 
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