1989 Kawasaki EX500 (Ninja) - Second build, slow and steady

[harrisonpatm]

All good ideas, but mostly it's bad light because it's my cellar-access, dirt-floor basement, whose only light is a bunch of random LEDs I've already put up from different pieces of scrap over time. I've reached a point in my workspace of diminishing returns regarding how much upgrading I'm able to put into such a small, crappy space. If I ever move house, it needs to have a garage.

 

[amberwolf]

Any yard space for a shop-sized storage shed?

I use one of my sheds as a workspace when I have to work on things in wet weather, for instance, but usually I work on most of the trike / etc stuff in the yard itself, often under a tree for shade.


I suggested the bar lights because they're relatively cheap, really easy to put up, and can be used anywhere, and just plug right into an outlet so no wiring work needed.

(These days, if things are hard to do or take a lot of work, I'm very unlikely to ever do them or use them, no matter what my intentions and desired might be ).

 

[harrisonpatm]

Any yard space for a shop-sized storage shed?

Nope! Postage-stamp sized plot with a small house where my wife has all gardening privileges. I don't mind the basement, the low light really is only apparent when I try to take a picture of something. And I don't worry about getting things dirty, when it's already concrete walls and a bare dirt floor. In the summer I bring pieces upstairs and outside to work on, and on the finished motorcycle(s?), I've built a roofed open-sided parking space where I can spread out and work as well.

 

[harrisonpatm]

Revisited the 3d-printed brake lever. I know at this point it'd be easier to just buy one, and it's slowly approaching being cheaper to just buy one, but way less fun! I finally acquired and modded up my printer to be able to print carbon-fiber infused nylon, which is basically one of the strongest things I can print without getting a whole different printer. Something I've been looking forward to using for awhile. And holy crap, it's so strong!


When researching tips and tricks for using this filament, I kept getting directed to various forums for 3d-printing firearms and associated parts for firearms. So if it's good enough for that... One of the tricks was to "anneal" it post-printing, a chemical process that I don't understand=, but is supposed to make it even stronger and prevent layers separating. If this is to be a brake lever under regular stress, I'll want it to resist weathering. Anyway, you're supposed to heat it to 80 degrees C and keep it there for 6 hours. I have a homemade sous vide machine from my days as a chef, so let's give that a try. It's super weird, basically boiling plastic to make it stronger and it hurts my brain to think about it, but other people online say it works great.

Top is un-annealed, bottom is annealed.

Can't see a visual difference, and I'm not about to waste my expensive filament by putting it through stress tests, but the results seem good. At the very least, I was surprised to see that 6 hours in hot water didn't warp it at all. Crazy.

 

[harrisonpatm]

Alright, thanks @A-DamW , great drawing program recommendation. Throwing my 12V wiring harness up for comments and critique:

Finally got off my butt and made up a 12v wiring harness. I always give myself more of a challenge than I need to, because I make a point of not purchasing new rolls of wire and just using what I've collected from scrap and recycling projects. Normally I don't mind, but when it comes to a wiring harness, it makes it hard, always looking for relatively long lengths, usually of a specific color. But I do try to just use a gauge something like double what I actually need, since all the wire is free and it's not like I'm adding cost or weight by using 16awg when 20awg would do just fine. Less resistance that way, and I don't have to worry about wires heating up at all.


Not going to wrap it up yet, because who knows if I'll need to add anything on the final build, but it's rather nice to know that I have a big section of the bike done, and it's basically just waiting on a powertrain.

On an interesting note, I used an ammeter to get an idea of the total 12v current draw. The front headlight is newly purchased LED, and the rear tail light/ brake light is the original fixture, but new LED bulbs. I kept the original rear turn signals, incandescent bulbs and all, and it was crazy to see the rear blinkers needing 2 amps, while the rest of the system draws only 2-3 amps, with the headlights on full blast. I guess LED's really do save a lot of energy after all! No reason to switch out the rear blinkers, I'm not actually worried about the power draw. Maybe if I see a good deal later on or something.

 

[harrisonpatm]

I think I just scored big. I make some casual scrapyard runs, not as a profit-making venture, just to bring my accumulated scrap metal somewhere good, as well as to get dirt cheap prices for copper wire. Well, I happened upon these on my trip today:




3-phase BLDC, looks like its got hall and temp sensors, and judging by its weight and wire gauge, looks in the range of 3000-4000w. Also looks like it was used for some sort of high-powered pump, based on what was left on the shaft. And I got it for $6USD! So of course I got 3. Time for some investigation to see if they can be mounted as a mid drive. At this price I wouldn't feel bad about running one over its rating, burning it out, and just swapping it for another one!

Anybody have any info on these? Closest I could find so far is this. The model numbers don't match up though, its possible what I have is something out of production.

130BSA Series-3X MOTION TECHNOLOGIES

PERFORMANCE DATAOUTLINE MAP

www.3xmotion.com

 

[Eastwood]

Good price on the motor but not good for moto conversion.

First off those phase wires are to small, looks like they’re good for maybe 50 continuous amps

The specs say peak current of 12 amps
The rated power is 1,570watts. To small

Then is has max torque of 5.5nm which is nothing.
As a reference the qs138 v3 70h has 98nm torque and that’s about the smallest motor you would want to put on a motorcycle.

I’m sure you can find use for those motors, but definitely not a motorcycle conversion. It would hardly have any acceleration. The only way around this is to rewind the motor. Whatever this motor was used for it obviously did not require any torque. Like you mentioned, the part numbers don’t match up exactly but it’s just one number different so I’m sure it’s similar to those specs listed.

 

[amberwolf]

Closest I could find so far is this. The model numbers don't match up though, its possible what I have is something out of production.

Or a custom version for a specific OEM.

Most pump motors are not high power, but are continuous duty at the power they do make.

Assuming the specs on that one are similar to those on that page, then if you use it with a gearbox or other reduction drive, you can convert the ~3000RPM down to say, 300-500RPM at a wheel, and get 6-10 times the torque, but that's still fairly low, 25-50Nm.

 

[harrisonpatm]

I knew it could have been a long shot, but I couldn't pass it up for the price. I was considering replacing phase wires anyway. And the online specs for what looks like a similar motor do say it's supposed to weight 5 or 7 kilos, while the ones I got are 10-12 kilos, depending on whether you count the cables. So fingers crossed, I send an email to the company directly, maybe I did get lucky.

I can always use one for my wind turbine experiments. And as @Eastwood pointed out, I can use them for a different smaller conversion, probably. Like a little scooter.

 

[Eastwood]

I can always use one for my wind turbine experiments.

Since you have a few of them, you could try rewinding for more torque. It would be a good learning experience and plus make the motor usable for a scooter. The motor as is, would be low torque for a scooter, but with the proper copper windings, you could achieve higher torque.

 

[amberwolf]

Rewinding for more torque reduces the speed (raising kT reduces kV). You can do the same thing, effectively, by simply using a reduction in the drivetrain between the motor and the wheel.

Still the same amount of power either way, unless you can fit enough more copper in the windings to allow enough more torque to more than compensate for the speed reduction.

 

[harrisonpatm]

I heard back from the manufacturer directly, and @amberwolf was right:

Or a custom version for a specific OEM.

It was a custom production and I was given the electrical specs. It's rated for 2200w. So I was right too, the motor was heavier and more powerful than what I could find on their website. Unfortunately, @Eastwood was right as well, it's not enough for a motorcycle. Would be perfect for a small scooter or moped conversion though, if you keep it under 35mph.

I'm in southeast Michigan, if anybody is in the area and would like one to play with.

 

[SlowCo]

That looks like an ideal motor to overvolt/power to 60V or 72V and 100 amps peak. Just keep an eye (better: a sensor) on temps.

 

[harrisonpatm]

That looks like an ideal motor to overvolt/power to 60V or 72V and 100 amps peak. Just keep an eye (better: a sensor) on temps.

Indeed, I already am mentally putting together a potential build, if I see a small donor moped on my local classifieds. The motor already has a temp sensor in place, so it's just begging to be built at this point. Yay, another project!

 

[Eastwood]

Rewinding for more torque reduces the speed (raising kT reduces kV). You can do the same thing, effectively, by simply using a reduction in the drivetrain between the motor and the wheel.

Still the same amount of power either way, unless you can fit enough more copper in the windings to allow enough more torque to more than compensate for the speed reduction.

Right, but he’s mentioned he’s limited on fabrication so a jack shaft would not be an option for him. That’s why I was suggesting to rewind the motor for torque.

 

[amberwolf]

Right, but he’s mentioned he’s limited on fabrication so a jack shaft would not be an option for him. That’s why I was suggesting to rewind the motor for torque.

Sure; I was just pointing out that it would be easier to put the reduction in the drivetrain itself than rewinding it.

Some probably useless thoughts, since they were in my head anyway:

It shouldn't need a jackshaft, depending on the space available for sprockets and what drive method is used. The motor wouldn't be directly driving a wheel, since it would be sticking pretty far out the side of any two-wheeler that way so it would need to drive a gear or belt sprocket (or a gearbox that would then drive a chain or belt sprocket), so the reduction could be done right there by using a small motor sprocket and large wheel sprocket, just as you would with any other higher RPM motor. Depending on the wheel size and speed desired, it might need 10:1 to 13:1 or so reduction, which is possible in a single reduction with the right sprocket type, even if it looks odd. Say, a 10 or 11T on the motor, and 100-130T on the wheel.

Not very power-tolerant but 25H chain sprockets are definitely available for 90+ tooth counts (I think I actually have one around here somewhere in that range that I'll probably never use). Larger / more durable chain sizes would need larger diameter sprockets, and that might get awkward with smaller wheels or lower speeds (that need even larger reductions).


BTW, fabrication doesn't always have to be done completely custom--i've learned over the decades to misuse repurpose bits of other things whole to do things I needed done that they weren't used for originally. Just takes some pondering to figure out what things would have the stuff I need in them, then acquire one and rip it's guts out scavenge the bits I need, and often just clamp or bolt all the bits together (not having a welder until the last decade or so I found many ways to do those things instead). Most of these methods are durable enough if done right. When they aren't then they just get redone until they are.

 

[harrisonpatm]

Sure; I was just pointing out that it would be easier to put the reduction in the drivetrain itself than rewinding it.

Some probably useless thoughts, since they were in my head anyway:

It shouldn't need a jackshaft, depending on the space available for sprockets and what drive method is used. The motor wouldn't be directly driving a wheel, since it would be sticking pretty far out the side of any two-wheeler that way so it would need to drive a gear or belt sprocket (or a gearbox that would then drive a chain or belt sprocket), so the reduction could be done right there by using a small motor sprocket and large wheel sprocket, just as you would with any other higher RPM motor. Depending on the wheel size and speed desired, it might need 10:1 to 13:1 or so reduction, which is possible in a single reduction with the right sprocket type, even if it looks odd. Say, a 10 or 11T on the motor, and 100-130T on the wheel.

Not very power-tolerant but 25H chain sprockets are definitely available for 90+ tooth counts (I think I actually have one around here somewhere in that range that I'll probably never use). Larger / more durable chain sizes would need larger diameter sprockets, and that might get awkward with smaller wheels or lower speeds (that need even larger reductions).


BTW, fabrication doesn't always have to be done completely custom--i've learned over the decades to misuse repurpose bits of other things whole to do things I needed done that they weren't used for originally. Just takes some pondering to figure out what things would have the stuff I need in them, then acquire one and rip it's guts out scavenge the bits I need, and often just clamp or bolt all the bits together (not having a welder until the last decade or so I found many ways to do those things instead). Most of these methods are durable enough if done right. When they aren't then they just get redone until they are.

This is all in my head as a possibility if the project ever does move forward as a mid-drive. At some point I'll need to give myself a primer on selecting the right chain and gear sizes.

TW, fabrication doesn't always have to be done completely custom--i've learned over the decades to misuse repurpose bits of other things whole to do things I needed done that they weren't used for originally. Just takes some pondering to figure out what things would have the stuff I need in them, then acquire one and rip it's guts out scavenge the bits I need, and often just clamp or bolt all the bits together (not having a welder until the last decade or so I found many ways to do those things instead). Most of these methods are durable enough if done right. When they aren't then they just get redone until they are.

You and I are on the same page there. I do like to save nice looking gears or transmissions from stuff I salvage, just in case