500 bux will this make me a good enough pack?

[dexgo]

Will 500 bux make me a decent enough pack to power my 5303/5304.

if I went with dewalts, I could get 4 packs. or 500 bux worth of 18650's?

any other Ideas.

this whole battery thing is starting to burst my bubble.

I am starting to see why batteries suck *price wize*

 

[BiGH]

its difficult, thats for sure.

i hate to say it but it depends on what ur requirements are.

 

[dexgo]

my requirements are:

To get like 10 miles at maybe 20 km/h and peak at 40km/h.

that is all.

and climb 1 semi-long hill by my house.

 

[dexgo]

So ok. I just want to be able to go 10 miles at 20-40 km/hour.

I hope that I can get there for under 500 bux. even if I have to DIY. it don't matter to me.

so Is my 500 or under for 10km in a 5303 gonna happen?

thanks

 

[BiGH]

hills?

if you're only trying to go that far- i'd be tempted to go and use SLA batteries!

 

[mi7d1]

in my opinion, I think you could do it. Your looking at 363wh with the DeWalts I believe. I travel 13 miles and use around 185wh

So ok. I just want to be able to go 10 miles at 20-40 km/hour.

I hope that I can get there for under 500 bux. even if I have to DIY. it don't matter to me.

so Is my 500 or under for 10km in a 5303 gonna happen?

thanks

 

[xyster]

So ok. I just want to be able to go 10 miles at 20-40 km/hour.

I hope that I can get there for under 500 bux. even if I have to DIY. it don't matter to me.

so Is my 500 or under for 10km in a 5303 gonna happen?

thanks

3 or 4 36 volt Dewalt packs (really more like 33 volts) would meet your requirements. You could wire three in parallel for 33 volts, 6.6 amp-hours; or 2 in parallel and 2 in series for 66 volts 4.4 amp-hours.
For $60-$80, three or four 10-12 AH 12 volt SLAs would also work. Your range and speed desires are very modest by endless-sphere ebike standards.
If I was you, I'd first go with cheap SLAs, get to know your bike, then decide if spending $400 or more for top-notch lithium is really worth it to you.

 

[tomv]

I'll just put some numbers so that you can more easily calculate your requiremnts.

Your range: 10 miles.
Energey cost: ~20 Wh/mile at speed of 20 mph (32kmh)
Total energe needed: 200 Wh actual energy.
Battery manufacturers rate their batteries a bit optimistically, so figure 300 Wh rated battery.

Speed. To go 30mph (40+ kmh) you need at least 48V at 20A. So your options are:

1) 4 x 12V 12Ah SLA for about $150, weight 40 lbs+
Cheap and good, but heavy

2) 48V 15Ah self built Nimh Pack, about 20 lbs, pain to build, $300
This is more Wh then you need, but Nimh can't provide enough current otherwise.

3) 4 dewalt packs (66V, 4.4Ah), 8 lbs, $500
Good power, but just barely enough juice to cover 10 miles.

 

[oatnet]

~20 Wh/mile at speed of 20 mph (32kmh)

This number is not representative of my experience, but I weight 250lbs and have hills, and depending on how many no-pedal starts the number can go up significantly.

2) 48V 15Ah self built Nimh Pack, about 20 lbs, pain to build, $300
This is more Wh then you need, but Nimh can't provide enough current otherwise.

Hmm, which NiMh are you speaking of? It sounds like you expect NiMh to be limited to @ 1c, and that is not the case... I built a 10ah nimh pack that is quite comfortable at 40ah, 4c. The cells are rated at 10c. However, at 10c rates, they are very sensitive to DOD (Depth of Discharge), they start to heat up much earlier than 4c, so one must be careful to not overdischarge... -tradeoffs.

Now that LiFe/LiMn chemistries are priced in the range NiMh, I would recommend tham over NiMh for a whole bunch of reasons (cycle life, ease of construction, BMS, weight, etc) but not because NiMh can only do 1c...

-JD

 

[BiGH]

continuing on the discussion - i agree with oatnet. You have two real choices.

Do i do it with good batteries, or do i go as cheap as humanly possible.

SLA would be my first port of call.

They are cheap enough not to matter. ( i got 36v 17ah for $150 AU ) inc chargers by getting jump start battery packs on sale.

I will also be buying a 72v 25-30ah LiPo4 setup as well - just not yet.

that was for the following reasons:
1. I wanted two battery packs - so that i could use one for commuting and one as a "neighbourhood" pack - ie for a quick spurt to the shops cheeply, or to a friend's place, or out to dinner (only need a 20k range - i'm going to need to add one more 12v 17ah battery to get that most likely).
2. They were so cheap (4x jump start kits are approximately two tanks of petrol here!!)
3. If i don't end up using them for the bike, i will wire them in series and use them for my solar / wind generator i'm going to be buying next! - good deep cycle SLA batteries have LOTS of uses around the house
4. It will allow me to test the bike out and fix any issues that arise without the burden of the expensive pack. I want to be able to grab that pack and start DAILY commuting 60km.

There's some things to think about.

my thoughts on your situation are:
depending on your fitness level - i would suggest you consider just riding the 10miles yourself without electric assistance (if possible). The long climb you can always walk up until you're fit enough.

if you're not fit enough (or have a medical condition) thats cool, then you need to decide if you want to go as cheep as possible on the bike, or as light as possible, and develop your fitness slowly using electric assist when required. I'm unfit (for me) and rode to uni gently yesterday (50k round trip) to drop an assignemnt off, i still managed to maintain about 25kph average (inc hills traffic lights etc)

Your speeds that you want to achieve are low in comparison to others here - this is good, your power requirements will also be low

even though SLAs are heavier I'd still go them first - less risk if for some reason its not enough power, you don't like biking enough (its too cold etc) plus they can always be re-used for other projects easily ie a DIY wind generator!

 

[dexgo]

I'll just put some numbers so that you can more easily calculate your requiremnts.

Your range: 10 miles.
Energey cost: ~20 Wh/mile at speed of 20 mph (32kmh)
Total energe needed: 200 Wh actual energy.
Battery manufacturers rate their batteries a bit optimistically, so figure 300 Wh rated battery.

Speed. To go 30mph (40+ kmh) you need at least 48V at 20A. So your options are:

1) 4 x 12V 12Ah SLA for about $150, weight 40 lbs+
Cheap and good, but heavy

2) 48V 15Ah self built Nimh Pack, about 20 lbs, pain to build, $300
This is more Wh then you need, but Nimh can't provide enough current otherwise.

3) 4 dewalt packs (66V, 4.4Ah), 8 lbs, $500
Good power, but just barely enough juice to cover 10 miles.

Thanks to everyone for their reply's

So the 4 dewalt packs is a no go really because of the very low ah.?

I want something that is about 25 - 30 lbs. so I think the Self built Nimh pack will do the trick, but you say it can't provide enough current?

I am prepared to spend 500 bucks on batts no problem.

I know people in the electricity department. and they can help build the packs with me.

So All in all Nimh packs look good.

What about Nicad.

and Allbattery or batteryspace looks to be the way to go.

 

[BiGH]

another option (i know its stretching it)

is to buy this:

($750)
http://www.texaselectricbikes.com/catalog/lithium-polymer-battery-volt15-hour-p-165.html

I personaly wouldn't touch nicad.

NiMH isn't bad, but Lithium is just hands down better whatever way you look at it. Larger cycle life means more $$$ initially but longer life vs NiMH.

edit: and those packs have been proven (have a look at knoxie's vids)
now time to go write about gap junctions :S stupid assignments and presentations.

 

[dexgo]

Thanks

your link is dead btw.

I don't want to spend more than 5 bills canadian. that includes all taxes and shipping.

Like i said I don't mind buying in bulk and building myself.

 

[tomv]

Nicad is poisonous. Most places will probably ban it (should have banned it long time ago).

For Nimh I guess it depends on cell manufacturer. I've used 10Ah D all-battery.com cells, and I can definelty say they can't do more than 1C. My 48V pack becomse 28V pack at 20 amps current . My 36V SLA's are better (but heavier)

I still have to discharge them fully to see if they are really 10Ah. Others have bit better luck with different cell manufacturers, but real tests reports are scarce and data sheets are "very optimistic" in their ratings

 

[xyster]

Nicad is poisonous. Most places will probably ban it (should have banned it long time ago).

Lead is poisonous. Practically every bike part and its manufacturing process is poisonous. Anything in excess is poisonous. Nicad is a viable battery chemistry that has the advantage of low price for a particularly long cycle life. There are recycling options for nicad batteries just as there are for lead batteries. Lead from un-recycled lead automobile batteries is probably more of an environmental concern than cadmium from nicad batteries.

On battery recycling:
http://batteryuniversity.com/partone-20.htm

Modern batteries are often promoted on their environmental qualities. lithium-based batteries fall into this category. While nickel-cadmium presents an environmental problem on careless disposal, this chemistry continues to hold an important position among rechargeable batteries. Power tools are almost exclusively powered by nickel-cadmium. Lead-acid batteries continue to service designated market niches and these batteries also need to be disposed of in a proper manner. lithium-ion would simply be too fragile to replace many of these older, but environmentally unfriendly, battery chemistries.

Our quest for portability and mobility is steadily growing, so is the demand for batteries. Where will the mountains of batteries go when spent? The answer is recycling.

The lead-acid battery has led the way in recycling. The automotive industry should be given credit in organizing ways to dispose of spent car batteries. In the USA, 98% of all lead-acid batteries are recycled. In comparison, only one in six households in North America recycle batteries.

Careless disposal of nickel-cadmium is hazardous to the environment. If used in landfills, the cadmium will eventually dissolve itself and the toxic substance can seep into the water supply, causing serious health problems. Our oceans are already beginning to show traces of cadmium (along with aspirin, penicillin and antidepressants) but the source of the contamination is unknown.

Although nickel-metal-hydride is considered environmentally friendly, this chemistry is also being recycled. The main derivative is nickel, which is considered semi-toxic. nickel-metal-hydride also contains electrolyte that, in large amounts, is hazardous. If no disposal service is available in an area, individual nickel-metal-hydride batteries can be discarded with other household wastes. If ten or more batteries are accumulated, the user should consider disposing of these packs in a secure waste landfill.
...

 

[tomv]

There's another option that I don't think anybody tried. I'm going to try it, but who knows when.

The cheapest cost per Wh is to use camcorder lithium packs:
Like this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/BP-941-BP-945-Battery-for-CANON-C2-FV1-Optura-Camcorder_W0QQitemZ140143814654QQihZ004QQcategoryZ43434QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

$20 for 59 wh. For $400 you can build yourself 1200 Wh pack, that will be arrount 10 lbs. 5S4P will give you 36V 32Ah, so easily capable of 30 amps of power.

Looks good on paper. Soldering 20 packs is also easier than 50 nimh cells. Charging is tricky...

 

[tomv]

Nicad is poisonous. Most places will probably ban it (should have banned it long time ago).

Lead is poisonous.
http://batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-36.htm

Damn, I love my SLA's less now Cadmium and Lead are one of only six substances restricted/banned in the EU it looks like:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROHS

On the other hand those SLA are so nicely sealed that the evils hidding inside seam less menacing. And then lead only causes brain damage and infertility as opposed to "pneumonitis, pulmonary edema, and death" from cadmium. I say go Lead!

 

[dirty_d]

i got 4 12v 12ah SLAs off eBay for $75 including shipping, its about 35lbs total but i can still go up hills no problem, if i keep it around 20mph i can go about 12 miles, with good power at the end of the ride with the voltage still above 12V, i could go farther but i start noticeably losing power after that. they might not last as long as a more advanced battery technology but it sure doesn't hurt the wallet as much in the short run.

 

[dexgo]

There's another option that I don't think anybody tried. I'm going to try it, but who knows when.

The cheapest cost per Wh is to use camcorder lithium packs:
Like this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/BP-941-BP-945-Battery-for-CANON-C2-FV1-Optura-Camcorder_W0QQitemZ140143814654QQihZ004QQcategoryZ43434QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

$20 for 59 wh. For $400 you can build yourself 1200 Wh pack, that will be arrount 10 lbs. 5S4P will give you 36V 32Ah, so easily capable of 30 amps of power.

Looks good on paper. Soldering 20 packs is also easier than 50 nimh cells. Charging is tricky...

that sounds good.

Maybe you could make a modular system so charging is easier.

 

[dirty_d]

are you sure those are safe to discharge at 1C? i dont think a camcorder ever needs to draw 8 amps.

 

[Smoker]

Nicad is poisonous. Most places will probably ban it (should have banned it long time ago).

Lead is poisonous.
http://batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-36.htm

Damn, I love my SLA's less now Cadmium and Lead are one of only six substances restricted/banned in the EU it looks like:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROHS

On the other hand those SLA are so nicely sealed that the evils hidding inside seam less menacing. And then lead only causes brain damage and infertility as opposed to "pneumonitis, pulmonary edema, and death" from cadmium. I say go Lead!

HAHAHA! words of a pro.

 

[BiGH]

Thanks

your link is dead btw.

I don't want to spend more than 5 bills canadian. that includes all taxes and shipping.

Like i said I don't mind buying in bulk and building myself.

Fixed - sorry was rushing. Yah i know i was just laying out lots of options. its still good to go a little above and below ur range so u have all the options layed out!

(my vote is still lead )

Damn, I love my SLA's less now Cadmium and Lead are one of only six substances restricted/banned in the EU it looks like:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROHS

On the other hand those SLA are so nicely sealed that the evils hidding inside seam less menacing. And then lead only causes brain damage and infertility as opposed to "pneumonitis, pulmonary edema, and death" from cadmium. I say go Lead!

The beauty of lead is that becuase u get brain damage ur not going to notice that its having a bad effect, and infertility just means more "trying"