what's the role of "EU contact for To7" . how hard is to ask technicians and come back with answers?? how hard is to get few photos or videos? I know it's existence from several months. I spoke with salesman from China before and knew some info but not all I wanted to know...
Anyone know about/tried TOSEVEN Mid Drive?
- Thread starter qlqlqlp
- Start date
I really don't know why you are so in a hurry to get that information. As said it is a matter of time to know all.
I can imagine that an EU contact is responsable for brand awareness of ToSeven in Europe and if he is an European, he knows how you can do this the best way.
Also if he is responsable to setup a network it is easier to communicate with new EU distributors.
But it is ToSeven China that decide what they want to share and what they find from more importance, so imho it could be that it indeed is hard to get answers, photo's and video's.
Why do you think they owe you information? Why do you think they owe you anything?
we already know . we can buy with pswpower , wee don't need him ...
regarding that talk about "network" - bafang has quite a plant in poland
Chiński producent systemów do e-rowerów otwiera zakład pod Wrocławiem
Bafang Electric otworzył fabrykę w Bielanach Wrocławskich, gdzie na początek zainwestuje ponad 60 mln zł i zatrudni 50 osób. Wsparcie inwestorowi zapewniła Polska Agencja Inwestycji i Handlu.
and i don't expect to change in that matter . alex is an example of this . and sadly from my experience with chinese salespeople - they simply lie into your face . they list a product that isn't there only to draw buyers attention . they flood you with useless info pretending useful info is not important. it's clearly visible now .
the motor IS AVAILABLE TO BUY ALREADY, that's why people are eager to try this, but this also implicates the product is not going to change much / quickly and lack of technical info raises awareness that they want to hide something . it's plain as day that thing is fishy ...
get some sleep .
THEY WANT TO SELL i might want to buy , see no relevance ? soo sad ...
Come on, be realistic
If we believe all what told us in TV commercials there are only fantastic must-have products that are much better than any other brand.
With the introduction on the market, for every new brand or product, they will only mention their benefits and features in the first place.
After this you maybe will see sponsored reviews or commercials. As long as you stay critical, these could be usefull for a first acquaintance.
If the brand or product is more well known you get independent reviews and also some disadvantages will be known.
At last you will see improvements and solutions from de brand or users to solve these disadvantages as much as possible.
Or .... the brand or product will disappear silency from the market.
A perfect product doesn't exist, but it is the buyer that made a choice what is important for him/her to made a comprimise.
In case of ToSeven that is already for sale, I expect that independent reviews will not take too long
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wooshbikes
10 µW
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- Oct 15, 2012
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I am one of the early adopters of the TSDZ2. Tongsheng sent me a comparative spreadsheet, pitching their TSDZ2 against Bafang's BBS01.
At that time, I was financially hurt by water ingress problems with the BBS01, so I bought a sample on aliexpress, check their spreadsheet and as it verified, I went ahead with the TSDZ2. My support cost of the TSDZ2 is comparatively higher, mainly play in the bottom bracket shaft, replacing a few blue gears and a few torque sensors, a few controllers each year,. The TSDZ2 is cheaper than BBS01B, I have some extra margin to cover higher support cost, so all in all, I am happy with the TSDZ2.
Then someone mentioned toseven in the pedelecs.co.uk forum. I read with some interest but no more so because the product(s) don't seem to be ready.
When someone in official capacity confirmed that the products are ready, and the superiority of their products versus products I am selling, I am of course wanting more information. The rest you already know.
The To7 DM midmotors are designed based on the Tsdz2 design, by the same engineer.
I understand that the weak Tsdz2 points, cooling, mechanical and torquesensing is changed cq improved.
I don't think DM-02 would be superior, but theorethical the DM-02 should be better as Tsdz2.
How much better we don't know for now.
Besides the the mentioned points, controller, software and torquesensor is complete replaced, so it is unknown if that is some improvement from Tsdz2 or OSF
I understand that the weak Tsdz2 points, cooling, mechanical and torquesensing is changed cq improved.
I don't think DM-02 would be superior, but theorethical the DM-02 should be better as Tsdz2.
How much better we don't know for now.
Besides the the mentioned points, controller, software and torquesensor is complete replaced, so it is unknown if that is some improvement from Tsdz2 or OSF
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wooshbikes
10 µW
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- 6
I can see from the pictures that the DM-01 looks like from the Bafang BBS02 and the DM-02 looks like the TSDZ2.
But that is not what Alex said to us, right at the beginning. He said this instead:
"The new DM-01 and DM-02 are not a derivative of the tongsheng Motors. They are a new design."
The new design is focused on build quality and reliability. They can withstand a lot more power
we have transitioned to UART controller's we intend to keep because its open to community development
we intend to release the motor programming software to the community/ end users and activity engage with them on forums like this".
That's why we pressed Alex to substantiate what he said.
stancecoke
100 kW
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- Aug 2, 2017
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There is a first user report of the DM-02 on the german forum:
seems like the first mechanical impression is OK, but the firmware seems to be a desaster. No idea, what PSW-Power is selling there....
regards
stancecoke
Mittelmotor mit Drehmomentsensor TOSEVEN DM01 zum Nachrüsten bei PSW-Power
Na, geht doch, leider noch zu teuer, da müssen noch 150 Dollar weg... . Bin aber auf die ersten Erfahrungsberichte gespannt... !
www.pedelecforum.de
seems like the first mechanical impression is OK, but the firmware seems to be a desaster. No idea, what PSW-Power is selling there....
regards
stancecoke
to save you effort for translating "
The Toseven engine arrived yesterday. I installed it in my non-motorized Breezer bike to test it.
The 500W motor is exactly 500g heavier than the TSDZ2. The mechanical impression is solid. Nothing wobbles and the bottom bracket shaft has no play. The larger distance between the bottom bracket shell and the motor housing is also good. It also fits with the gear cable and brake line routed under the bottom bracket housing. The TSDZ2 doesn't fit in there.
Overall, it makes a mechanically solid impression and has the potential to be good in my opinion.
The cons:
The firmware definitely still has a pre-alpha status. The torque sensor (if there actually is one) is obviously not recognized or evaluated correctly. The display shows human power, but there is no difference between pseudo-pedaling and pedaling with a lot of personal effort. The displayed motor power is 300-400W even in level 1 and is 500-700W in level 5 depending on the cadence. That's way too high at the bottom.
When starting, the motor switches on without a ramp. When you start into a curve, the wheel is almost impossible to hold because the trailing time of about 2 seconds is also much too long. This is not harmless and has nothing to do with the behavior of a torque-controlled motor.
You can set the speed limit on the display, but the motor does not react to it. On the level, with a set limit of 25, almost 50 km/h could be reached without any major problems. The maximum cadence is around 100.
Toseven still has to make major improvements to the firmware. This has nothing to do with a fully developed retrofit motor with torque control."
The Toseven engine arrived yesterday. I installed it in my non-motorized Breezer bike to test it.
The 500W motor is exactly 500g heavier than the TSDZ2. The mechanical impression is solid. Nothing wobbles and the bottom bracket shaft has no play. The larger distance between the bottom bracket shell and the motor housing is also good. It also fits with the gear cable and brake line routed under the bottom bracket housing. The TSDZ2 doesn't fit in there.
Overall, it makes a mechanically solid impression and has the potential to be good in my opinion.
The cons:
The firmware definitely still has a pre-alpha status. The torque sensor (if there actually is one) is obviously not recognized or evaluated correctly. The display shows human power, but there is no difference between pseudo-pedaling and pedaling with a lot of personal effort. The displayed motor power is 300-400W even in level 1 and is 500-700W in level 5 depending on the cadence. That's way too high at the bottom.
When starting, the motor switches on without a ramp. When you start into a curve, the wheel is almost impossible to hold because the trailing time of about 2 seconds is also much too long. This is not harmless and has nothing to do with the behavior of a torque-controlled motor.
You can set the speed limit on the display, but the motor does not react to it. On the level, with a set limit of 25, almost 50 km/h could be reached without any major problems. The maximum cadence is around 100.
Toseven still has to make major improvements to the firmware. This has nothing to do with a fully developed retrofit motor with torque control."
wooshbikes
10 µW
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- Oct 15, 2012
- Messages
- 6
PSW should not have sold it but it's good that we know how things are shaping up.
I am sure they will sort it out the firmware in time. Don't know about the new torque sensor though, that's the main attraction in the first place.
I really hope that it is the firmware and not the torquesensor system.
Imho it looks strange that this could happen.
I assume that testing takes place when developing a new design, which is partly based on an existing design, with which you compare
Imho it looks strange that this could happen.
I assume that testing takes place when developing a new design, which is partly based on an existing design, with which you compare
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wooshbikes
10 µW
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- Oct 15, 2012
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- 6
I find it hard to believe they would have gone ahead if the torque sensor didn't work.
it could be that they developed the motor with one LCD protocol then produced the kit with another.
The LCD can't then tell the controller what the customer wants.
it could be that they developed the motor with one LCD protocol then produced the kit with another.
The LCD can't then tell the controller what the customer wants.
wooshbikes
10 µW
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- Oct 15, 2012
- Messages
- 6
I like the way the controller is repositioned on the DM-02.
Tongsheng should better come up with a good reply.
Tongsheng should better come up with a good reply.
This is interesting to see that (again?) manufacturer creates its own firmware that on fact does not work as it should. Given so many discussions on OSF they should know at least what are the best mathematical formulas to calculate the rider input and control the motor 
. Recently i have heard interesting statement why the companies hesitate to invest in OSF: they must be sure that it will increase their sales going that way.. On the other hand see Innotrance case where using OSF can actually put you in risk of actually loosing business bacause anyone now can copy your firmware. But again mathematical formulas are free to use and have significant impact on motor performance not forcing you to share your work to the community
. Recently i have heard interesting statement why the companies hesitate to invest in OSF: they must be sure that it will increase their sales going that way.. On the other hand see Innotrance case where using OSF can actually put you in risk of actually loosing business bacause anyone now can copy your firmware. But again mathematical formulas are free to use and have significant impact on motor performance not forcing you to share your work to the communityImho I don't know If that also be the case with To7.
They have said that they want to publish their code to the community.
But couldn't tell yet "when and how"
stancecoke
100 kW
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- Aug 2, 2017
- Messages
- 1,697
We don't know anything about the manufacturer of the controller yet. We don't know if it's an own development of To7, or if it's buyed from a tier 2 supplier. The tier 2 supplier will be responsible for the firmware in this case normally....
The Shengyi middrive has a Lishui controller for example.
Bafang uses Lishui controllers in some systems also, labeled as Bafang, but Lishui inside
regards
stancecoke
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Indeed those business justifications can have place here as well.We don't know anything about the manufacturer of the controller yet. We don't know if it's an own development of To7, or if it's buyed from a tier 2 supplier. The tier 2 supplier will be responsible for the firmware in this case normally....
The Shengyi middrive has a Lishui controller for example.
Bafang uses Lishui controllers in some systems also, labeled as Bafang, but Lishui inside
regards
stancecoke
okay but where they got the motors from ??? why would the factory send them faulty motors ???
I got excited to see there is a possibility of newer, better torque sensing motor. But now I look at images in specification and 250-500 W motor looks the same as Tongsheng. I don't know why they do not hire someone to make them up to date design?
Also, marketing is almost close to none. No info on the website, no test drives or videos, no comparisons, no installation guides.
It reminds me of Lingbei motor few years ago.
Pity Bafang does not have anything with torque sensing in this self-install range.
Also, marketing is almost close to none. No info on the website, no test drives or videos, no comparisons, no installation guides.
It reminds me of Lingbei motor few years ago.
Pity Bafang does not have anything with torque sensing in this self-install range.
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Lingbei was developed by former Bafang engineers, so was based on the Bafang design, but came imho very silency into the market. The biggest problem of this design was the weak torquesensing, which never approached the level of Tsdz2.
ToSeven is developed by former Tongsheng engineers, so the base is the same as Tsdz2. So the expectation is an equivalent torque sensing and an improved mechanical construction.
Toseven is represented on several fora and was/is for sale at PSWpower, but has some startup problems, so there are no full reviews yet.
When these startup problems are over, the reviews will follow automatically.