Are batteries more expensive than petrol?

eTrike,

You have me wondering what you did have , four doors , bit of a cage and topped out at 45 ?

and what you have now ?

Pict's and links on both ? I am really interested, I presently trying to figure how I could I get/buy something that is a bit of a cross between a car and MC , as I would like to get rid if my old, piece of junk car.
but do not have enough money for a used Leaf, Volt, Prius , etc.







eTrike said:
Here is my story. My motorcycle has four doors, four seat belts, a bit of a cage and tops out at 45mph. I consider it an extremely safe motorcycle compared to others due to increased physical protection, the size and color makes it difficult to "not see" (indeed it turns every head), and the lower speed keeps me safer overall, but it is much less efficient as a result of its size-- about on par with a small EV car which matches its stature. It is about the size of a Suzuki Swift or Geo Metro if you're familiar with those.

When it was new, it was $12,000 with 72V Lead-acid system, 37mph top speed (decreasing to 33 rapidly) and 25mi range if you're lucky(and slow to a crawl) and takes several hours to charge :shock:
On clearance they wanted $7,000. :eek:
They can be easily found for 2-3K now, still with crappy lead-acid which most likely need replaced, hence the sale. :?
I paid $500 because it needed batteries and a controller.
$500 for new controller
$1.5-2k for high end lithium that will likely outlast the vehicle.

Now I have an errand/commuting/fun machine for which I paid $2.5-3k, is 300lbs lighter, capable of 45mph and will maintain 40mph for 28+ miles.
Converting that into petrol at its rather low cost at the moment, it would be about 1 US gallon at about $2.30. That is not factoring the wild price fluctuations which happen with petrol. Compared to about $0.50 worth of electricity-- which is often free! So for every 28 miles I might save $1.80. If used 5 days/week, 50 weeks per year that is $450 savings in fuel. It doesn't see that much use at the moment, but it could also easily do more than that if I choose as charging is rather swift, 1-2 hours depending on location.
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eTrike,

Ok that , I have seen a couple of those, there is a place in South San Jose, Ca. that will do repairs on them,

Sounds like you have made the improvements that they should have been made with in the first place.
although it now looks like great deals can now be gotten on those,

The same for the Vectrix Scooter , it had one or two flaws, but now can be gotten , when they do come up used, for cheep.
I saw one about a year ago for sale for $ 1,500 or less . http://cdn.metaefficient.com/wp-content/uploads/vectrix-electric-scooter-gas-free.jpg


would like to find something like this, for cheep and convert it to DC Electric power. http://gfx.motosport.com/motoblog/2013/Craig-Vetter-small-2.jpg

or this . http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2011/10/acabion.jpg


Or this http://roa.h-cdn.co/assets/cm/14/47/980x551/546b09bbd4f1f_-_pulse-lg.jpg
 
ScooterMan101 said:
SaladFish,

Here you could do something like this, http://car-from-uk.com/ebay/carphotos/full/ebay133507.jpg
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I was thinking something like the "Peregrin on a Birk" except 110kmph on the highway, no pedaling and I'm definitely not paying $48,000 AUD.

[youtube]gjEkQZNOqb4[/youtube]

Peregrin on a Birk website.
http://speedbikes.ch/en/peregrin-on-a-birk/
 
Man, you're gonna get to spend so much time inside a coffin by and by. Why you wanna do it now?
 
Most of these "cost comparisons". Seem to be comparing the cost of petrol to the cost of recycled cells, in self assembled packs, with no real guarantee of their life expectancy.
Recycled A123 pouches ? Too much history on here to go that way surely.
 
Hillhater said:
Most of these "cost comparisons". Seem to be comparing the cost of petrol to the cost of recycled cells, in self assembled packs, with no real guarantee of their life expectancy.
Recycled A123 pouches ? Too much history on here to go that way surely.
Click to expand...

Direct cost comparisons should not compare hardware to fuel. Cost of gasoline should be compared to cost of electricity. The cost of replacing batteries should be compared to replacing consumable parts in gas motor vehicles: clutches, belts, filters, alternators, timing chains, head gaskets, etc. Then, to be fair, you have to include all the routine maintenance that e-vehicles don't need: oil and coolant changes, valve adjustments etc.

People conveniently forget all the expenses they take for granted with their smog machines.
 
Chalo said:
Hillhater said:
Most of these "cost comparisons". Seem to be comparing the cost of petrol to the cost of recycled cells, in self assembled packs, with no real guarantee of their life expectancy.
Recycled A123 pouches ? Too much history on here to go that way surely.
Click to expand...

Direct cost comparisons should not compare hardware to fuel. Cost of gasoline should be compared to cost of electricity. The cost of replacing batteries should be compared to replacing consumable parts in gas motor vehicles: clutches, belts, filters, alternators, timing chains, head gaskets, etc. Then, to be fair, you have to include all the routine maintenance that e-vehicles don't need: oil and coolant changes, valve adjustments......
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No, sorry cannot agree. Batteries are a consumable part of the energy supply for an EV
For a start, the OP's question was quite specific as to what he was comparing , so you shouldn't twist it to suit your own purpose.
If you want to debate whole vehicle life cycle costs I suggest it should be a separate question/ thread.
Secondly, we all know the battery's have a limited life, so it's reasonable to take that as the consumable "power source" cost for an EV ( certainly include the cost of electricity) to do a direct "energy" cost.
Trying to compare all other indirect costs will be a never ending list and argument.
Ultimately, comparing direct financials of like for like vehicles..new ICE to similar new EV, I think we all know the EV is a non starter. ....other than possibly for a few heavily subsidised areas in CA.?
 
Batteries are components just like timing belts are components. If you want to run an EV, you need batteries, but if you want to run a gas burner, you're going to need a timing belt (or chain, or gears and pushrods). Both things wear out, but that doesn't make them fuel.

Comparing the cost of fuel on one hand to the cost of components on the other hand is pointless, unless the point is to be disingenuous.
 
Chalo said:
Batteries are components just like timing belts are components. If you want to run an EV, you need batteries, but if you want to run a gas burner, you're going to need a timing belt (or chain, or gears and pushrods). Both things wear out, but that doesn't make them fuel.

Comparing the cost of fuel on one hand to the cost of components on the other hand is pointless, unless the point is to be disingenuous.
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That is a fine point and I am working on a complete cost analysis of petrol (cbr125r engine) vs EV for an ecomobile. This is a very involved process so it is taking time.

This thread is focused on batteries because savings here make the largest impact on EV.

Is the Samsung INR18650-29E Li-ion the most economical option for new batteries in the world?

1kWh / $248.69 USD (based on 210 batteries)
1kWh / $277.63 US USD (with $65.20 USD) shipping to Australia (based on 210 batteries)

http://www.nkon.nl/samsung-inr18650-29e.html


Found here (http://www.nkon.nl/samsung-inr18650-29e.html).
 
Batteries make about 1/3 sometimes 1/2 of tthe cost of an LEV.
So its viable to get the most cycles out of the pack.
That is possible if you buy high drain cells (15A - 20A) and make the pack 20-30% bigger than your maximum commuting need is. So get the Samsung 30Q or 25R or LG HE4 or HG2 they will hold long in an LEV application.
That will bring you in the 1k-2k cycle range depending how you treat the pack. (temperature / charge rate ect.)
 
SaladFish said:
That is a fine point and I am working on a complete cost analysis of petrol (cbr125r engine) vs EV for an ecomobile. This is a very involved process so it is taking time.
Click to expand...


Make sure your spreadsheet has a column for ensured death of all human and mammal life.

I went for a run up a mountain today in China, it's at least 10 miles from any big cities. I noticed in the cities many many folks are wearing gas masks, and thought that seemed a bit extreme. 30 minutes into my run, I had to slow to a walk because my lungs were functioning so poorly I was going to black out if I continued running. My lungs and sinuses were burning like breathing fire, I began to cough and BLACK SOOT kept getting hacked up, and when I blew my nose BLACK BOOGERS kept coming endlessly. I typically am not yet warmed up from only 30minutes of running, let alone stopped by gasping for air.

The spraying of deadly known carcinogens and mutagens into the single atmosphere we have ends in ensured death of species which breathe. As you draw this gift of breath while reading this, consider on your cost spreadsheet what it's worth to you not to require wearing a gas-mask 24-7 to avoid premature death by inhaled toxins, or if you care nothing for your life and the lives of others but only money, factor in the cost of daily gas-mask filter cartridges.

ATB,
-Luke
 
Yuck, not a good place to exercise without a mask. I was amazed how fast everything I wore turned black in 1976 London. At that time, a lot of less than clean diesels on the streets. And winter, smog far worse than summer of course with the furnaces running. That was the first time I saw real smog. Nasty, makes me glad I spent my life in a place that used to have extremely clean air, and still has relatively good air except in the winter inversions.

Which category you put the costs in doesn't really matter. What counts is the entire cost of operating the vehicle. Including what it does to the air or water. For calculation purposes, I cost out batteries in 3 years use. In my climate, that is about it for me. I might get another years use running my mower, but on the bikes they are done in 3 years usually. This gets quite costly if you don't ride them much, and just sitting there not used much is how they wear out. Back when I really did ride 4000 miles a year battery costs were very small. But now my riding is closer to 2500 miles a year, and battery costs much more. It would be lots cheaper if I was only needing 20 miles range. Keeping a large stash of battery around for occasional 60-80 mile rides is stupidly costly. I consider those costs entertainment budget, NOT transportation costs.

This is why I said to take a look at renting a car for the longer trips, if they are done very seldom.
 
get your cells at nkon.nl, way cheaper. your bill will look much better than...
 
Are batteries more expensive than petrol ?
Now yes.
However even now, the price difference is enough for increasing demand of EV's
Soon EV's will be cheaper than ICE vehicles (total cost of ownership-not only batteries)
Their operation principle is so simple and mass production benefits will eventually show this
It's difficult to hold back simplicity.
 
SaladFish said:
I have done some calculations. I estimate that 8,000 watt hour is equivalent to 2.7L of petrol.

Cost per 100km electric: $7.73 (estimated)
Cost per 100km petrol (cbr125r): $3.90

This is excluding tyres ($1 per 100km) and other components that are either unforeseeable or would affect both electric and petrol powered motorcycle.

Does this look about right?

I could build a motorcycle with sub 1L/100km fuel economy. But that mean's I still need 1.6L worth of battery power to make 160km high way trip. More if I don't want to get stranded.
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I think its a great little comparison..
I understand maybe some folks don't get it here as most of the world doesn't have an EV nor can afford one and they don't need to look at a spreadsheet to know they can't buy a Tesla etc..
But this might be great for some people whos partners etc don't want them to even build an ebike because they think its a waste of money etc..

I wasn't going to open it directly as its somewhat common internet security knowledge (at least to me) that anonymous microsoft xls files are about as safe load up directly on a PC as anonymous .exe files.
I just uploaded it to google drive which allows viewing etc via web browser..
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GSjuih5fQsby2D2pVhqGRxq_nnOIRAkRI2GbSoAw7UQ/edit?usp=sharing

SaladFish said:
Existing motorcycle.....
Petrol costs

Oil

Oil change every = 8,000km
Oil change costs = 17.38 (http://www.supercheapauto.com.au/online-store/products/Silkolene-Super-4-Motorcycle-Oil-10W-40-1-Litre.aspx?pid=124141#Recommendations)
(34438.1km / 8,000 = 4.304762 oil changes) x 17.38 per oil change = $74.81

Coolant

Cost: $13.55
Lasts: 250,000 or 5 years.
Total cost = $13.55

Spark plug
too infrequent to mention

Sprocket, Chain
Sprockets and chain for mid drive electric anyway

Battery for petrol motorcycle
2p 4s 8 total batteries (15v, 6a)
$8.15 x 8 batteries = $65.20
Needs to be changed every 0-5 years (depends if I leave the keys in, lets pretend I don't leave the keys in).

Cost analysis

Petrol 34438.10 km
Petrol $1,311.44 + Oil $74.81 + Coolant $13.55 + Battery $65.2 = $1,465.00
Click to expand...
This is why I decided to convert my quad bike to electric as I just hate ICE motors, I hate lead acid batteries and I hate all the oil and crap inside the ICE motor, from what all I have learned in science I am more afraid of lead then a lot radioactive materials, I knew from the start that merely buying a new ICE part for my quad bike was cheaper but I just couldn't put a price on the lifestyle of supporting this ICE quad bike.. That said its still more practical of a conversion on a quad bike as I don't have any serious range needs..
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=59935#p1126128
 
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