BBSHD vs. BBS02?

[Wolfeman]

Good morning all, veteran ebiker here with a question. Is it really worth an extra $400 to go for a BBSHD over a BBS02 on a hardtail MTB that'll be used for trail riding? I have a BBS02 running at 48V on a Dyno Moto 7 Cruiser/BMX. It's great for cruising the neighborhood and bike paths. I run the stock 44T steel chain ring with no issues, ever....

For my next project I want to do a trail bike that'll mostly see dirt/gravel trails, some climbing, etc. I'd likely go with a 30T Lekkie ring and a Megarange rear cassette to keep motor rpms up. I buy my stuff from Luna and WCEC and have never had an issue with either. Spec'd out the way I want it, the BBSHD is $400 more than the BBS02. Bottom line, is it worth it? Why, why not? Thanks in advance.

 

[tomjasz]

Much better at shedding heat and takes more abuse. Especially if the latest BBSHD with updated rotor.

 

[qwerkus]

You guys should sticky Justin's take on bbshd vs bbs02: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=100461
Very enlightening! Basically, it means that the 02 is clearly the better of the two, but with subpar cooling. Put a better heatsink on it, and you'll fly...

 

[aCeMadMod]

Too me it weak point both them is axle.

Only m600 fixed that


Good luck

 

[Wolfeman]

You guys should sticky Justin's take on bbshd vs bbs02: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=100461
Very enlightening! Basically, it means that the 02 is clearly the better of the two, but with subpar cooling. Put a better heatsink on it, and you'll fly...

Thank you for directing me to that post. The way I read it was that Justin's testing found the BBSHD to be slightly more efficient, larger, heavier and capable of more power sustainably. The BBS02 on the other hand was smaller, lighter, capable of less power, etc. Seems like the answer depends on the question, what will it be used for? Either way, I appreciate the direction. I may just go with another BBS02 with a Mighty Mini 30T chainring and a 52V pack for a little more oomph. The 30T will keep RPMs up and take load off the unit.

Just picked up a gently used late 90s GT Palomar hardtail off CL, planning on turning it into a trail bike of sorts. More later.

 

[tomjasz]

Justin doesn't ride BBSxx series motors. Great read and generally I'd agree. HOWEVER, the BBSHD is much more forgiving if it's loaded by being in the wrong gear. I'm not good at explaining, but the BBS02 needs to be ridden like a bike with assistance. It needs to be kept wound up and at a higher RPM. Shifting through gears as we would normally riding, using it for assistance. Don't use your gears and come to a stop and just throttle away or just pump away and the 02 can and will overheat. On the other hand I can run a BBSHD on a 7 speed and pretty much just leave it in 3rd or 4th gear and throttle away without shifting. Obviously I'm not a dirt track rider, I assume those would be using their gears and shifting appropriately making the BBS02B an excellent choice.

Pedicabs were burning through BBS02 motors and most former 02 users now use BBSHD. It's proving to be a much tougher motor.

My only BBSHD disappointment was always clown pedaling. No way could keep up with it's cadence. But for a commuter and cargo bike the HD wins hands down.

Poster above claimed rotor problems with BBS02B and I haven't seen a single BBS02 rotor sale this year. Unlike the BBSHD and scores have gone out the door.

 

[AZeBikeGuy]

I read the article and my impression is that he concludes the BBSHD's are the better unit

More efficient and more rugged

But different kv like you are suggesting

 

[spinningmagnets]

I'd say yes. Will you own two ebikes? If you'll only have one, get the BBSHD.

if you use the extra power on rare occasions, be aware the BBS02 has less power, so it could not have done what the bbshd does.

If you only use 1100W, the bbs02 can do that, but the bbshd would run cooler at that power level (more copper mass)

The bbshd runs fine at 1500W, but it also has the upgrade option to 2500W. The bbs02 is topped out at 1100W.

 

[bradland]

You guys should sticky Justin's take on bbshd vs bbs02: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=100461
Very enlightening! Basically, it means that the 02 is clearly the better of the two, but with subpar cooling. Put a better heatsink on it, and you'll fly...

I think a lot of people read Justin's post and reach incorrect conclusions. That analysis examines motor efficiency and top speed. It does not consider construction, durability, or duty cycle. Remember, the motor is named the BBSHD (heavy duty). Not BBSHP (high performance). A byproduct of the heavy duty construction means you can do stuff with the BBSHD that you cannot do reliably with the BBS02.

For an off-road application, I would put the money into a BBSHD up front, because it should save you on parts in the long run. You'll also be less afraid of hitting that nasty climb out of fear that you're going to over-stress your drive.

 

[2old]

I've been riding a BBS02 for 4+ years off road and it's been perfect. For me, no need for the extra expense and weight of the HD model. I'm always in either no assist or "1" (of 5), sometimes "2" for really steep and/or sandy ascents. Can't imagine ever getting out of "1" with the HD. The other benefit (for me) is the assist can be tailored so I still get a pretty good workout. However, if you don't want to pedal at all or very much, th HD probably is better. BTW, my wife rides a "02" also at the same assist levels.

 

[qwerkus]

You guys should sticky Justin's take on bbshd vs bbs02: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=100461
Very enlightening! Basically, it means that the 02 is clearly the better of the two, but with subpar cooling. Put a better heatsink on it, and you'll fly...

I think a lot of people read Justin's post and reach incorrect conclusions. That analysis examines motor efficiency and top speed. It does not consider construction, durability, or duty cycle. Remember, the motor is named the BBSHD (heavy duty). Not BBSHP (high performance). A byproduct of the heavy duty construction means you can do stuff with the BBSHD that you cannot do reliably with the BBS02.

For an off-road application, I would put the money into a BBSHD up front, because it should save you on parts in the long run. You'll also be less afraid of hitting that nasty climb out of fear that you're going to over-stress your drive.

And what would be incorrect in my conclusion? All I'm saying is that the 02 with the cooling characteristics of the HD would be the best option. Anyone looking for a ready to use option for high power use has no real alternative but to get the HD. Hence the high pricing. I'm not sure it's worth the additional transmission troubles though (chainline issue, derailleur drop and quick wear), but that's another topic. What I would be interested in, is seeing someone coming up with a custom cooler for the 02. Having a 02 here hauling 100Kg+ trailers up hill, I can confirm that the darn thing gets hot very quickly!

 

[kcuf]

use both extensively

continuous power dissipation is key

hd rated to dissipate 1000w continuous

peaks 1500w okay but not for long

newest 02 rated 750w continuous

but not really

600w continuous safe range

very intermittent peaks 1000w okay


not powering fat tire bike

ride more like pedal bicycle

02 lighter smaller cheaper


otherwise go hd imo

 

[tomjasz]

use both extensively


600w continuous safe range

very intermittent peaks 1000w okay

not powering fat tire bike

ride <edit> like pedal bicycle

Exactly!

 

[bradland]

And what would be incorrect in my conclusion?

My comment wasn't a rebuttal. Just an additional comment. "A lot of people" didn't include you

 

[waxed]

I recently had to make this exact decision BBS02 or BBSHD
for a road bike commuter application
realistically I only need 750W and the lower weight of the BBS02-750W is attractive

I decided to purchase a BBSHD
Apart from what is already mentioned here there are other factors not really mentioned;

BBSHD crank arm position are symmetrical (you can buy offset cranks for the BBS02 but that is more $)
BBSHD has better Bottom Bracket bearings which are fairly easy to service
BBSHD seems to have better sealing
BBSHD IMO looks much better

One negative is the extra weight which means lifting the bike is more difficult.....
and why they hell didn't they run the the cooling fins in the other direction (in line with air flow)...

 

[Chalo]

One negative is the extra weight which means lifting the bike is more difficult.....

BBSHD has significantly wider Q factor (tread width), outside the statistical distribution for any kind of bike other than fatbikes. When a bike has a design feature that's highly unusual, that usually means it's wrong. Boring old normal bike technical customs have become boring and normal through a >150 year development process. Asymmetrical offset cranks have much more historical precedent than cranks spaced as widely as BBSHD.

Point is, BBSHD is more likely to be unsuitable for a rider who pedals in earnest. It probably would work fine for some riders, but not others.

 

[AZeBikeGuy]

...Point is, BBSHD is more likely to be unsuitable for a rider who pedals in earnest. It probably would work fine for some riders, but not others.

I pedal 100% and pedal hard... bringing in little (75-200W) or often enough no power from the BBSHD at all... BBSHD is fine for me although I did mess with things to get better offset on the left side... definitely *not* unsuitable for pedaling...

 

[Chalo]

...Point is, BBSHD is more likely to be unsuitable for a rider who pedals in earnest. It probably would work fine for some riders, but not others.

I pedal 100% and pedal hard... bringing in little (75-200W) or often enough no power from the BBSHD at all... BBSHD is fine for me although I did mess with things to get better offset on the left side... definitely *not* unsuitable for pedaling...

I know riders who get knee problems riding a recent production MTB, let alone a duck-friendly arrangement like BBSHD. So there's a lot of variation. I do well with wide Q, and if I don't have it, my feet tend to creep off the outer edges of the pedals. I got along fine with BBS02 (though I put unicycle arms on to narrow it a bit), but my chains and cassettes did not.

 

[AZeBikeGuy]

I had issues with somewhat shortened chain life however the 11t cog on the rear cassette would start skating after 500-1000mi, which wasn't a big deal since the cogs are very inexpensive (~$7-8) and take seconds to replace - chains aren't expensive either. Once I tuned the motor controller parameters properly those issues stopped and a few thousand miles in I replaced the aluminum cog cassette with a steel cog unit and I've got ~3000mi on the present chain and cassette with about 1mm stretch on the chain - very acceptable. Bike has ~7000mi with BBSHD.

I've had issues with my knees (I'm 60), in particular my left knee. I'm now at ~9000mi on electric bikes and all that riding improved them both, particularly the left knee because it wasn't getting flexed much prior to riding and was getting very stiff and range of motion was limited. When I started I couldn't even turn 70rpm without my left foot coming off the pedal (the foot is plastic) and now I turn in the 70's for general riding cadence and can turn 110+rpm. Not to mention getting winded walking up a set of stairs before electric bikes and now I can really pump it out - even at my age my resting pulse is now in the 50's and I don't get winded at all unless really cranking it out and then recovery is very fast.


All in all major physical improvements all the way around and I'll credit the BBSHD... no way it's caused anything negative and has instead done quite the opposite... It seems our experiences are very different...

 

[Chalo]

I've got ~3000mi on the present chain and cassette with about 1mm stretch on the chain - very acceptable.

This seems extremely far-fetched. Most chains elongate at least that much during initial break-in, and it's common for chains to reach their wear limits in less than that many miles, without using motor power to accelerate deterioration. What kind of chain measurement are you doing?

I never got as much as 1000 miles out of a chain with my BBS02, even though I mitigated chain wear by using a 13-34 and then a 16-40 cassette (7 sprockets in the outermost of 9-speed spacing).

 

[AZeBikeGuy]

Why on earth would I lie?

Put it on at ~4000mi and have ~7000mi now - comes out to ~3000mi... it's an 11speed chain (shimano)/cassette (sun race 11-46t)... I measured a couple of weeks ago and a little over 1mm stretch on the chain... and I ride hard, off-road, etc. 11-speed chains are more durable than 9-speed so that may play a part.

Like I mentioned, until I tuned the controller it didn't last as long (1500-2000mi) so maybe you don't know how to tune your controller or maintain a chain properly - oh well

You can either believe it or keep calling me a liar

 

[Chalo]

Why on earth would I lie?

Put it on at ~4000mi and have ~7000mi now - comes out to ~3000mi... it's an 11speed chain (shimano)/cassette (sun race 11-46t)... I measured a couple of weeks ago and a little over 1mm stretch on the chain... and I ride hard, off-road, etc. 11-speed chains are more durable than 9-speed so that may play a part.

Like I mentioned, until I tuned the controller it didn't last as long (1500-2000mi) so maybe you don't know how to tune your controller or maintain a chain properly - oh well

You can either believe it or keep calling me a liar

I'm not saying you're lying, just that it's well outside the results that a large sample of regular riders (me, my customers, my coworkers, etc., get in our conditions. For what it's worth, Austin conditions are easier on bikes (chains, rims, brake pads) than Seattle where I lived for a while. It isn't wet very often, and our dust isn't very abrasive.

In my observation as a working bike mechanic, narrow chains like 11 speed wear out more quickly than wider chains like 8-speed. I guess it wouldn't be out of the question for manufacturers to make their less fashionable chains out of lower grade materials, so as not to make their high-margin stuff seem shoddy. But that's not what I've seen in the workstand.

I've never "tuned" a controller. I just use what comes with the motor, or I install something else with appropriate specs. I've installed a passel of BBSHDs and BBS02s, but all of them went out with whatever controller settings they showed up with--apart from things like wheel size, number of power steps, top speed etc. It's not clear to me what possible difference it would make to your chain anyway, unless you're just turning the thing down in power.

What are you measuring with? 1mm elongation in how much length of chain? Chain wear is typically incremented in percent elongation.

 

[AZeBikeGuy]

We have a ton of abrasive dust but it's very dry. I lube very often but no other regular chain maintenance - no solvent soaks, pots of paraffin, etc.

Everything I've seen is that it's pretty well understood that the narrower 11-speed hold up better than the 8-speed chains and it's a common misconception that wider chains are "stronger" - this doesn't apply to single speed/BMX chains, just derailleur chains. For one they have bevels machined in the pins and the holes have "V's" to fit the bevels and they are more securely attached to the plates. Chains typically fail from the pin coming out of the plate and there's less stress on shorter pins - anyway, don't believe me on this point, do some searching. I put a graph from https://cdn-cyclingtips.pressidium.com/ in this response but please search this and convince yourself.

The chains I buy are inexpensive, at least by 11-sp standards, ~$30 (HG-701). When I replace the chain I buy the next one shortly after and hang it on a nail in my shop... periodically I'll pull the chain from the bike and hang it on the nail next to the new chain... look at the bottom and voila, stretch is obvious and measurable with precision... when it hits about half a link of stretch (~5mm) the new one goes on, rinse, repeat.... I don't see stretch at all initially like there's some sort of break-in period... they start out not stretching quickly... it gradually accelerates and by the time they are at that half a link they are starting to stretch much more quickly so good time to change...

I also think that going to steel cogs helps chain life but this is just my supposition - I've got no data aside from my anecdotal accounts. It makes sense to me though since when cogs wear the effective tooth pitch increases which more effectively stretches the chain(which then causes more wear on the cogs, etc.)

One time just as an experiment in economics I ran a chain to failure doing zero maintenance. No lube, nothing. I wondered whether the time to do the basic maintenance justified the time to do it from a purely economical standpoint... sort of silly but they are so inexpensive that why not? That was on an aluminum cog cassette and I had a new wider ratio one I was wanting to put on anyway. The conclusion? Even if it only takes a couple of minutes to lube the chain if I did it frequently enough it devalued my time to a few bucks an hour so from the purely economical standpoint it didn't make sense. Do I still do that? NO WAY! =] It shifted poorly and made a lot of noise. The time to lube makes the bike far more pleasurable to ride and it's hard to put a tangible value on that!

I'm running somewhere shy of 120links

 

[AZeBikeGuy]

Here's a link to the article that graph came from: https://cyclingtips.com/2019/12/the-best-bicycle-chain-durability-and-efficiency-tested/

...It’s commonly said that the wider chains of past drivetrains were more durable. Sure, older 8-, 9- and even 10-speed systems do offer wider cog widths which provide increased surface area with the chain, but does that actually mean the chains are more durable?

It’s a question I posed to Kerin after the previous testing was done, and he got the Zero Friction Cycling torture machine up and running again to find out. In this, he tested the top Shimano chains from each respective speed, and the results may surprise you.

It seems that with each gear added, durability has improved. And at least for Shimano chains, 10-speed saw a significant jump in durability from 9- and 8-speed, and Shimano’s latest 12-speed XTR mountain bike chain rules the roost as Shimano’s most durable offering.

The reasoning for this is less clear, but certain materials have improved, manufacturing processes have become refined, and new low-friction coatings have been added. Similarly, the chain designs themselves have changed, and where 8- and even 9-speed chains would see the inner links turn solely on the connecting pins, newer chains typically see these forces shared across the pins and specifically stamped plates, too....

And when it comes to the motor/controller tune many will apply a *lot* of power even in lower PAS levels and sometimes rather abruptly... my tune doesn't do this at all and lower PAS levels provide very low maximum power... e.g. I ride a lot in PAS 2 and 3 - the most power 2 will throw out is ~135W and 3 is ~180W - I've got to get up to PAS 9 or grab throttle to get the full ~1500W, even PAS 6 which is very high for me - think horrible headwinds, hill climbs, in a hurry, etc. is limited to ~500W

 

[E-HP]

Back on BBSHD vs BBS02, does anybody know of any videos comparing the sound of each? After looking a lot of mid drives for possibly converting my full suspension bike, I've come to the conclusion that I don't want to deal with the noise of most mid drives, and the Bafangs looks to be the best option a quieter bike. I saw a video of the BBS01 and it was barely noticeable. The problem with the videos is you can't reliably compare between two videos, so ideally a comparison between the BBSHD and BBS02 in a single video is what I'm looking for.