Best IGH for BBSHD powered recumbent trike?

Baseline

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My mechanic is installing a bbshd mid drive on my HP Velotechnic Gecko fx 26 trike. Thinking about also installing an IGH to simplify things. I checked out the 3x3 nine hub, which can handle the torque, but it costs over $1000 with a twist grip shifter (the E shift option only available with Bosch motors. Using a 46t chainring

Any other IGH I should look at? I live and ride in central florida so mostly flats riding on paved bike trails
 
If you live in a mostly flat area, going with a hub motor would have been more ideal.

BBSHD is a pretty powerful motor, the only IGH known to handle that power before breaking quick is the shimano 3 speed IGHs.
 
The lower the number of gears, the more likely it is to handle the torque, but if the IGH doesn't have a torque input rating from the manufacturer, or it's lower than the torque output of your system, it may fail when that higher torque is applied, depending on tolerances, manufacturing, actual loads, etc.

You can change the gearing of your system so the input torque is lower, but it may affect the system's ability to do what you're after depending on the final gearing you need.

There are a number of IGH discussions and posts that may be helpful, including a recent discussion in some threads about the bikee kit with Nervagon and Neptronix, etc. I'm sorry the search doesn't really work well and can't be refined further (other than by doing different searches with different specific search terms).
 
If you live in a mostly flat area, going with a hub motor would have been more ideal.

BBSHD is a pretty powerful motor, the only IGH known to handle that power before breaking quick is the shimano 3 speed IGHs.
Look, it's a 75 lb trike with a 200 lb rider and a 25.lb Boston terrier in a basket
Hub motor not efficient enough and also puts more weight in the rear where the battery and my dog are. No thanks, got the bbshd because it is robust and has more power than I will use, which means less problems. A 3 speed IGH might work, have heard the same thing
The lower the number of gears, the more likely it is to handle the torque, but if the IGH doesn't have a torque input rating from the manufacturer, or it's lower than the torque output of your system, it may fail when that higher torque is applied, depending on tolerances, manufacturing, actual loads, etc.

You can change the gearing of your system so the input torque is lower, but it may affect the system's ability to do what you're after depending on the final gearing you need.

There are a number of IGH discussions and posts that may be helpful, including a recent discussion in some threads about the bikee kit with Nervagon and Neptronix, etc. I'm sorry the search doesn't really work well and can't be refined further (other than by doing different searches with different specific search terms).
Thanks, the problem with most of those threads is they are several years old. New stuff comes out all the time. I like the 3x3 nine IGH but it is expensive and only comes with twist shifter. So looking to see which 3 or 5.speed IGH might work best. I have seen threads where guys are using nexus or alfine.igh paired with bbshd and working ok if you shift properly
 
I hesitate to respond with my own, personal IGH experiences because as both @neptronix and @amberwolf already wrote, most of the established (and reasonably priced) IGH hubs aren't rated for the full BBSHD grunt, if rated at all.

But ... this is a forum for real-world experiences and/or opinions and all that - so here goes some of my own.

My initial, as an owner of a small fleet of IGH e-bikes, thought is that, if you're willing to be particularly cautious when up-shifting an e-overpowered IGH hub (such as the Shimano Nexus 3-speed, the Shimano Nexus/Alfine 8-speeds, and the Rohloff 14-speed - all of which I own), and throw in/on a shift sensor for insurance (because sh$t happens), then in my personal experience these hubs can hold up to the power abuse. What kind of power (motors / wattage)? My bikes have open-source BBS02 (max 28 amps), CYC (max 38 mps), Luna V2 controller BBSHD (max 60 amps) motors, and I've not wrecked or even damaged the IGH hubs listed above. Early on, I did pull apart a few chains, but upping the chain quality and/or going 1/8 seemed to cure the issue. I've also softened the initial ramp-up power (where possible) within the motor settings.

AFAIK, the Rohloff is the only IGH with built-in over-torque protection (via nylon sheer pins).

Also AFAIK, all recent IGH designs with more than 5 speed are two-stage (primary ratio section with a high/low), and may not shift correctly under pedal/motor load. A shift sensor helps - on a dual-cable Rohloff, on the upshift cable.

Dan Burkhart on youtube has several IGH related videos that may give you an idea on the current IGH construction qualities (or lack of). For example, IMHO, the Sturmey-Archer (now Sun Race) machining/metallurgy looks pretty bad, though some seem to have e-powered success with the hub locked in second-gear 3-speeds. One needs to remember how ancient the SA hubs designs are, after all, as well as the design target rider/usage. I'd avoid the 5-speed SA hubs in particular - just asked Luna Cycle.

There are several new up-and-comer IGH designs out there, like the 3x3 and fairly established two Kindernay hubs. But, for now, I'm sticking with either the low-cost Alfine-8 that has a reasonable gear range and parts availability, or splurge for the tried and true (and easy to cope with chain line) Rohloff. I use the older SG-S501 Alfine-8 series, but the newer SG-S7001-8 ones are probably ok (be sure to get the correct shifter) - both are cartridge designs, meaning that there' are "guts packs" available for both, and that's the standard repair path, I believe. The Shimano 8-speed hubs have somewhat irregular gear steps (and gear efficiencies), but I've gotten used to them - versus, the very evenly stepped Rohloff.

At one time, I did have a bike set up with the Shimano Nexus 3-speed, and while it operated fine the ratio range was too narrow for the particular terrain the bike was run on.

I briefly considered the new Shimano 5-speed IGH, but it's overall gearing range either requires small wheels or a smaller (than I can manage) front chainring. For some reason, on this hub, Shimano set the low gear as the 1:1 ratio gear.

Here are some examples of my builds, most of which have IGH hubs (and strong rear triangles and adjustable dropouts to deal with the IGH twisting force). My terrain is hilly, and the total rolling weight was at one time 400lbs - thankfully now down around ~290lbs. I ride mostly errands, in traffic, where speed helps.

P.S. I'm responding to the initial topic question, but as other responses suggest, for your situation a quality hub motor seems a better fit. I've got a beach / flat terrain hub motor build underway - my first stab.
 
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Look, it's a 75 lb trike with a 200 lb rider and a 25.lb Boston terrier in a basket
Hub motor not efficient enough and also puts more weight in the rear where the battery and my dog are. No thanks, got the bbshd because it is robust and has more power than I will use, which means less problems. A 3 speed IGH might work, have heard the same thing

The highest efficiency you'll ever see to the rear wheel is 83% on the Bafang BBSHD and the highest efficiency you can get out of a hub that's half the cost is 90.5%. The efficiency benefit of the mid drive only really comes into place in hilly/mountainous situations. Otherwise you need a very high efficiency ($$$$) mid drive to beat a hub.

IGH will shave off a few % of your efficiency as well. So your rear wheel efficiency ends up more like 80%.

This 10% efficiency difference can have a substantial effect on range and therefore battery life.

Thanks, the problem with most of those threads is they are several years old. New stuff comes out all the time. I like the 3x3 nine IGH but it is expensive and only comes with twist shifter. So looking to see which 3 or 5.speed IGH might work best. I have seen threads where guys are using nexus or alfine.igh paired with bbshd and working ok if you shift properly

True but i don't see much other than incremental improvements on IGH technology outside of the extremely expensive ones.
Nobody likes revealing their torque input specs except for the $1000 and up club and a 3 speed geared hub is generally accepted as being the strongest of the cheaper IGHs.
 
Hub motor not efficient enough and also puts more weight in the rear where the battery and my dog are. No thanks, got the bbshd because it is robust and has more power than I will use, which means less problems.

Through the gears mid drive, less problems than a hub! Hooboy, that's a good one! 🤣🤣🤣

And you intend to run that superhuman powered chain over a tight side idler pulley! That's gonna be top quality entertainment.

Your machine being a wheelchair trike and all, the majority of the weight (yours) is on the front wheels, so moving elective items to the back should balance the weight distribution better. There's no case to be made for a mid drive unless you have formidable hills, you want to roll really slowly but with full power, or you just really like to break things and disable a trike that you can't even push worth a darn while walking it back to civilization.
 
He's right, the rider weight is more frontward than backward.

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The idlers and plastic bits that make the chainline work in this configuration will probably get chewed up by the BBSHD.

Consider that at BBSHD power levels, you experience rapid sprocket/chain wear, make sure you can get spare parts for the entire driveline from HP Velotechnik or another dealer before proceeding with the build.

Considering you are in flat ground, you're a good candidate for a geared motor and don't really need the DD unless you want really fast top speeds. A 7lbs MAC would give you BBSHD-levels of power and slightly better efficiency than the BBSHD.
 
My initial, as an owner of a small fleet of IGH e-bikes, thought is that, if you're willing to be particularly cautious when up-shifting an e-overpowered IGH hub (such as the Shimano Nexus 3-speed, the Shimano Nexus/Alfine 8-speeds, and the Rohloff 14-speed - all of which I own), and throw in/on a shift sensor for insurance (because sh$t happens), then in my personal experience these hubs can hold up to the power abuse. What kind of power (motors / wattage)? My bikes have open-source BBS02 (max 28amps), CYC (max 30amps), Luna V2 controller BBSHD (max 60 amps) motors, and I've not wrecked or even damaged the IGH hubs listed above. Early on, I did pull apart a few chains, but upping the chain quality and/or going 1/8 seemed to cure the issue. I've also softened the initial ramp-up power (where possible) within the motor settings.

AFAIK, the Rohloff is the only IGH with built-in over-torque protection (via nylon sheer pins).

Also AFAIK, all recent IGH designs with more than 5 speed are two-stage (primary ratio section with a high/low), and may not shift correctly under pedal/motor load. A shift sensor helps - on a dual-cable Rohloff, on the upshift cable.
Honestly these sounds really crazy to me, not do discount your own experiences but I also own a bbshd with the ludi v2 and it puts out an ungodly amount of torque. According to the grin simulator roughly 420nm of torque at the crank. Assuming a 40t to 20t that's still 210nm going into these IGH's. That Rohloff 14-speed is only rated for up to 130nm so that's way above the limit (I couldn't find the shimanos stated limits). Just surprised you haven't broken them yet haha, I got a new hub with better engagement and destroyed it in 1k miles, rebuilt and been using the "zip tie cassette" mod and its been ok for now amost 2k miles but its starting to make some noise so I need to inspect and regrease. I have a feeling though I will need to go to a star ratchet hub eventually
 
Honestly these sounds really crazy to me, not do discount your own experiences but I also own a bbshd with the ludi v2 and it puts out an ungodly amount of torque. According to the grin simulator roughly 420nm of torque at the crank. Assuming a 40t to 20t that's still 210nm going into these IGH's. That Rohloff 14-speed is only rated for up to 130nm so that's way above the limit (I couldn't find the shimanos stated limits). Just surprised you haven't broken them yet haha, I got a new hub with better engagement and destroyed it in 1k miles, rebuilt and been using the "zip tie cassette" mod and its been ok for now amost 2k miles but its starting to make some noise so I need to inspect and regrease. I have a feeling though I will need to go to a star ratchet hub eventually
Oh, I agree - crazy, YMMV, don't try this at home, and all of the like caution phrases and disclaimers. I thought I'd wreck the Alfine 8 on the Luna BBSHD-powered bike (limited to 50 amps, and gentle motor ramp-up) in short order, but haven't yet. My Rohloff / Luna BBSHD-powered bike (60 amps) has never balked.

I forgot to mention how I set the overal gearing on the Alfine bikes - I try and optimise for a battery saving 20MPH in the 1:1 (fifth) gear, and use 6th for "as needed" higher speed in-traffic manuevers (grabbing a left-turn lane, for example). Very rarely do I use the 7th gear, and never the 8th. 1st is still low enough when poking up the grades I face. 40:24 with a 650B wheel - severly violating the Shimano sprocket/chainwheel ratio guideline. I gear the Rohloff 34:19, which mildly violates the similar Rohloff guideline - on it, 8-9th gear ar my gotos, with the 1:1 11th gear occasionaly reached. The Luna V2 BBSHD wound-out cadence is so damned high, and I waste a fair amount of available ratio range on both hubs.

Shimano does have a torque rating for the new 5-speed - 60ish or so IIRC, and best suited for Bosch-ish motors.

I do have two derailleur bikes (one each mid drive and hub), too. I try and treat them all gently while shifting, as riding home under power is much much nicer than walking - particularly if you have to carry the back wheel off of the ground, 'cause something blew up!
 
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I'm also in the heavy cargo bike with a Rohloff/BBSHD combo. A few thousand km and not a single issue, the biggest advantage of the rohloff vs previous IGH I'd tried, is it has enough range to be able to pedal the thing like a normal big when you want to do some work or you forgot to charge the battery for 3 months.....
 
He's right, the rider weight is more frontward than backward.

View attachment 351675

The idlers and plastic bits that make the chainline work in this configuration will probably get chewed up by the BBSHD.

Consider that at BBSHD power levels, you experience rapid sprocket/chain wear, make sure you can get spare parts for the entire driveline from HP Velotechnik or another dealer before proceeding with the build.

Considering you are in flat ground, you're a good candidate for a geared motor and don't really need the DD unless you want really fast top speeds. A 7lbs MAC would give you BBSHD-levels of power and slightly better efficiency than the BBSHD.
Thanks for all the help guys, I am just a retired golf pro and got a recumbent cuz my chiropractor told me it would help keep my lower back loose, and it does - 30 minutes on this rig and I am warmed up and ready to bust a move.
I had a tongsheng motor on the bike before, it worked ok but was really weak going up hills and after several breakdowns decided to get a bigger motor. The plan was to pair the bbshd with a 3x3 nine hub (250nm) but it is expensive and also they only offer a twist shift which is akward on a recumbent.

So I talked to my mechanic and he agreed with y'all that a hub motor would be cheaper and less stressful on my trike so I will return the bbshd. My mechanic is super busy (Santos trails bike shop) so I try to buy complete kits with all necessary extension cables so he can just install it without hunting down parts.. I wasn't aware that hub motors have gotten a lot more powerful since I last looked at them.
So here is what I need if possible.

I want to be able to cruise at 25 mph, faster is okay but not necessary.
I would like to keep my 10 speed sram 11-36t thats on the bike, it has a bar end shifter thats easy to use, so I guess I need a hub that will accept a shimano freehub body and 10 speed cassette?
The brakes on the trike are controlled by a single caliper with dual cable outlets, this is important to keep as it makes braking very simple. Are there hubs/controllers that will work with a hidden wire cutoff sensor like Bafang has? Will a bafang 3 pin cable interface with hub motor controllers?


Where do I get extension cables for the various sensors? speed, brakes, pas etc

I would like to buy a complete kit with 26 wheel, hub motor, controller cable extensions etc. In this thread people mention MAC hubs as being one of the best. Which model would meet my needs? Any other brands, please be specific on models that can meet my requirements above if possible.

Who would be best supllier of a kit? I have heard em3ev and grin are good. When I looked at em3ev site they show nothing under hub motors Ebike Hub Motor Kits | EM3ev

Found this site which has quite a selection. Hub Motors - Ebike Parts - Shop

Anyway, all help and suggestions greatly appreciated. Remember, my tech knowledge about bikes and electric motors is very limited, I know how to hit a little white ball 200 yards and stop it 10 feet from a pin, but most of the stuff you guys talk about is way over my head. Just want a reliable motor and system for my trike that lets me and my dog go out and have fun on rides.
 

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The site you found with the big selection is Grin's website (ebikes.ca) Basically the gold standard.
What he said, and where I ventured to place my hub motor order. I think they'll have everything you need as a kit for your mechanic, with quality parts, wheel building, and the battery too. Their Weinmann DM30 rim may match up cosmetically.

You may just want to email them (terrain, HEAT, weight, range, and your desired cruising speed) and have them just say, "here's exactly what you need".

It'll be pricy, but done right, fixable, and reliable. Grin has a motor simulator, if you want to explore some setup options.
 
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What he said, and where I ventured to place my hub motor order. I think they'll have everything you need as a kit for your mechanic, with quality parts, wheel building, and the battery too. Their Weinmann DM30 rim may match up cosmetically.

You may just want to email them (terrain, HEAT, weight, range, and your desired cruising speed) and have them just say, "here's exactly you want".

It'll be pricy, but done right, fixable, and reliable. Grin has a motor simulator, if you want to explore some setup options.
Thanks and yes I sent them an email with my requirements and specs. Their GMAC regen kits look awesome and the do have brake cutoffs that will work with my existing dual control single caliper and it appears I can use my existing sram cassette and derailleur. I just need to figure out the cables needed on recumbent trike.

Pricey at close to $900 but a lot better than bbshd motor plus $1200 high torque IGH
 
Through the gears mid drive, less problems than a hub! Hooboy, that's a good one! 🤣🤣🤣

And you intend to run that superhuman powered chain over a tight side idler pulley! That's gonna be top quality entertainment.

Your machine being a wheelchair trike and all, the majority of the weight (yours) is on the front wheels, so moving elective items to the back should balance the weight distribution better. There's no case to be made for a mid drive unless you have formidable hills, you want to roll really slowly but with full power, or you just really like to break things and disable a trike that you can't even push worth a darn while walking it back to civilization.
Silly boy. It's a barcalounger trike, wheelchair trikes are much more upright.
 

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Consider this factor about the price:
You eliminate about 5 drivetrain parts that wear out when using a mid drive on both the mid drive unit and bike itself.

On the GMAC there is only one part that really wears: the gear cluster, and you can buy a replacement one for a reasonable price, but, they typically won't wear out for most people.
 
After a long wait, after getting burned by the defunct distributor Cycle Monkey, Vapor Propulsion Labs finally got some NINE hubs to distribute. The hub replaced a Rohloff on my BBSHD Big Dummy. It works great and feels really solid, however there seems to be little interest by the manufacturer to support builders. A handful of videos in German, once translated, gave just enough help to figure out the shifter install. The axle plate/torque arm mounting proved problematic with the post mount brake adapter supplied. Hacksaw yielded this setup.
 

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Real-world experience - Two years in to using a Shimano Alfine 8 with BBSHD 52v stock controller, recumbent trike, heavy rider. I shift cautiously, and use a shift sensor. No issues, and prefer it to the previous 9-speed conventional cassette/shifter. Smooth, shifts at stop, and range is sufficient for me. BBSHD can chew up conventional systems as quickly as hubs - I do suppose those are cheaper. My point is that the conventional wisdom is that this hub is not strong enough - but strong enough for me.
 
I have a Bafang Ultimate M620 with 2300 watts, Innotrace controller, Gates belt drive, and a 3x3 Nine IGH. I started with a Kindernay hub that failed at 350 miles. Tried a Revolute Hub I, and it didn’t shift properly. I the went to a derailleur and was extremely cautious about applying power. Now I have a 3x3 Nine and love it. It is rated for 250 nm, sealed with grease (no maintenance), and supports a Gates belt (no chain breaks or mess.) I can shift to any gear immediately, skipping any amount of gears I wish (after stopping the peddling.) Gears 1 and 2 are very low, useful for hill climbs, cargo bikes, and walking speed. Gears 8 and 9 for speeds greater than 25 mph. IMO, the 3x3 Nine is the only option at this time for high powered Bafang mid dive motors.
 
I have a Bafang Ultimate M620 with 2300 watts, Innotrace controller, Gates belt drive, and a 3x3 Nine IGH. I started with a Kindernay hub that failed at 350 miles. Tried a Revolute Hub I, and it didn’t shift properly. I the went to a derailleur and was extremely cautious about applying power. Now I have a 3x3 Nine and love it. It is rated for 250 nm, sealed with grease (no maintenance), and supports a Gates belt (no chain breaks or mess.) I can shift to any gear immediately, skipping any amount of gears I wish (after stopping the peddling.) Gears 1 and 2 are very low, useful for hill climbs, cargo bikes, and walking speed. Gears 8 and 9 for speeds greater than 25 mph. IMO, the 3x3 Nine is the only option at this time for high powered Bafang mid dive motors.
 

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NIce. Seems like an advertisement for hub motors, but at least 3x3 Nine hubs are shipping to real people now.
 
How does the 3x3 Nine work? Does it have two independent 3-speed clusters in series (as opposed to an N-speed cluster with a separate high/low cluster, as Shimano and Rohloff use)? The fourth speed is 1:1, I believe - is it shell locked?

The chain/belt line is a fairly generous 54.7mm - well, mostly:
  • 135 mm quick release - belt/chainline =54.7 mm
  • 142 mm thru axle 12 mm - belt/chainline = 54.7 mm
  • 148 mm thru axle 12 mm - belt/chainline = 51.7 mm
I wonder why the 148TA chain line would be 3mm less.

A 54.7 belt line might be in the ballpark for a belt drive BBSHD (Gates pully mounted on a 5-arm spider adapter) - a longtime grail mission for some.

The shifter and torque prevention have many time-tested Rohloff-ish aspects, with the advantage of supporting the thru-axle natively. Is there an "OEM" plate that would engage in OEM dropouts?

P.S. - "Yes" is the answer to the OEM plate question.
 
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