C Cab Hot Rod Power Advice

You are on the right track, amberwolf. It was on my mind before going to slumberland.

I took a picture of the inside where the 'broken' end goes, but it doesn't show much to post.
However, as you have surmised, the inner tube didn't get welded.
In this rough cut, I've drawn an imaginary yellow line to show
about where the two pieces would join.

DSCN2455.JPG

I can rejoin the pieces using a rosette weld.
That should work for this side, but the other side isn't in two pieces, yet, to do the same type of repair.
Maybe I can drill and pressure pin it. ????

DSCN2466.png
 
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Glad that didn’t happen while driving.
More/thicker metal.
Can you find a factory part like that from a lawn tractor or something?

The spindle is my own design that works with the axle, also of my design.
There's not going to be any factory parts that will give me the same result.

DSCN2467.JPG
 
You are on the right track, amberwolf. It was on my mind before going to slumberland.

I took a picture of the inside where the 'broken' end goes, but it doesn't show much to post.
However, as you have surmised, the inner tube didn't get welded.
In this rough cut, I've drawn an imaginary yellow line to show
about where the two pieces would join.

That's waht I was imagining.


I can rejoin the pieces using a rosette weld.
That should work for this side, but the other side isn't in two pieces, yet, to do the same type of repair.
Maybe I can drill and pressure pin it. ????
You can use the RW on that part too, but an RW places all the vertical stress on just one patch on either side (presuming one on the forward and one on the aft side of the tube). There shouldn't be any vertical twisting forces on them, if the ex-steerer fits tightly within the ex-crown tube, but there will be horizontal / lateral twisting forces on them from steering / acceleration / braking forces.

A kind of W of four rosettes at the compass points, two up and two down, would spread the stresses more evenly.

A ring weld around the base of where the ex-crown rests outside of the ex-steerer would also fully join them, leaving all the twisting forces to be soaked up by the whole ex-crown tube. But it might deform the tubing enough to cause problems with the bearing race seating, etc, depends on how hot things get.

There's probably a number of good ways to spread the stresses out; none of them might be necessary, but I'm a firm believer in "enough is never too much" :p


If you ever rebuild those: Ideally, what I would have done while building that, would be to grind the fishmouth, then weld the entire tube interface of the fishmouth face, then just lightly regrind that to flatten it enough to fit the pieces together, and then deeply weld the fishmouth to the axle-holder-tube.
 
I have decided to use the pressure pins to secure and hold against any torsional movement.

As added strength, I will insert another tube, which I cut long ways and inserted from the bottom.
The tube has not been fully inserted at this point.
I found there is a slight cone effect. It narrows slightly near the fishmouth.
I have drilled two rosette weld holes.

I will shape the inner tube fishmouth to match the outer. It will be a fraction below the outer.
I anticipate that this will allow for a few tack welds where they meet at the top.

Once the inner tube is in and secure, I will drill and insert two 1/8" by 5/8" pressure pins.

To keep from cutting the tubes and welding inside, then rewelding them back together,
I have opted for my fav...JB Weld. I have experience with its holding power,
so I will fill the cavity where the fishmouth and pressure pins are.
There should never be any rotation of the inner tubes.
l
No worries about welding on or near the bearing race.

I will sleep on this. Tomorrow is my second cataract removal, so I'm laid up for a day or so.

DSCN5847.JPGDSCN5848.JPG
 
As added strength, I will insert another tube, which I cut long ways and inserted from the bottom.
The tube has not been fully inserted at this point.
I doubt you need the extra tube; I think the steerer itself is probably strong enough for the loads it's going to see.

If you do need the extra tube inside, it might be complicated to install, since it wont' sit flush against the ID of the steerer without custom-shaping the ex-crown end, it may need welding thru from outside the steerer tube (RW type, etc) in mulitple places to secure them together to pass stress thru.



I found there is a slight cone effect. It narrows slightly near the fishmouth.
That's normal becuase steerer tubes usually are butted with thicker metal down at the crown. If you drop the bearing race over the steerer you'll usually find it has a gap between the steerer and the race at the top end and fits tightly (to the point of having to be tapped into place) at the crown end. That butting is usually on both the ID and OD of the steerer tube in the ones I've repurposed, complicating certain usages.
 
I doubt you need the extra tube; I think the steerer itself is probably strong enough for the loads it's going to see.

If you do need the extra tube inside, it might be complicated to install, since it wont' sit flush against the ID of the steerer without custom-shaping the ex-crown end, it may need welding thru from outside the steerer tube (RW type, etc) in mulitple places to secure them together to pass stress thru.




That's normal becuase steerer tubes usually are butted with thicker metal down at the crown. If you drop the bearing race over the steerer you'll usually find it has a gap between the steerer and the race at the top end and fits tightly (to the point of having to be tapped into place) at the crown end. That butting is usually on both the ID and OD of the steerer tube in the ones I've repurposed, complicating certain usages.

Morning all. I've pondered the reason the tube broke in the first place. One thought is that there are extra rotational stresses placed on it from the steering wheel drag link. The additional stress once at full lock (left or right) from the twisting motion may have contributed to it cracking and eventually breaking. At the time of its breaking, the full weight of the front axle was on it, causing the axle to fall away from the spindle.

Therefore, my logic is that the fishmouth area must be strengthened. The extra tube provides additional material for the pressure pin to hold. Strengthened and secured with pressure pins.

The inserted tube has been shaped from a slightly larger tube. It will need to be pressed in or tapped in.
It will be spot-welded in place. Overkill? Maybe, but as someone once told me, "enough is never too much".

Ok, I'm off to have cataract surgery. That will undoubtedly provide clarity to this problem...BOOM!, BOOM!.
 
Since any OEM welding** of the steerer to the crown is done at the base where the steerer exits the bottom of the crown, that would have been removed during the fishmouthing.

The welding of the ex-crown fishmouth to the bottom of the axle-tube doesn't appear to have penetrated into the ex-steerer there, except maybe at the one point that shows some apparent scalloping. So that would ahve been the only point (if any) that was actually bonded as one piece of metal with the ex-crown that *was* welded to the axle-tube.

Then the normal steering forces, weight, etc., act upon only the friction of the small surface area between ex-crown and ex-steerer, and whatever tiny portion of them actually got welded together.

**in my experience, the steerer and crown appear to typically be interference-fit, to aid in making them one piece without depending on the welds, however once the crown is cut down to the tube itself, there's less...pressure, tension, compression, whatever, on this interface, and it is easier to separate them, especially with forces greater than the bicycle fork they were built for are applied in twisting them apart.


Anyway, what it comes down to is that once you join the metal of the steerer to the metal of the ex-crown and axle-tube to make them one piece, you shouldn't have any worries about that failure mode again.



The next stress point from there is the right-angle joint between the ex-headtube and the Z-frame. ;)



Hopefully your cataract removal goes well, and makes the world bright and shiny again!
 
second cataract removal
cataract surgery
Amazing that doctors can replace a lens in your eye like the lens in a telescope. Pray that all is good with your eyes.

Might want to wait a while before ya start arc welding?

Would some stupid jokes help your eyes?
____________________________________________________________

What do you call a deer with no eyes?

I have Noideer
____________________________________________________________

What kind of car does a eye doctor drive?

Cataract? ------ Cadillac? ------ Cadaract?
 
Morning all. All is well, though the doc said it wasn't a piece of cake this time.
Things are still a bit blurry, though improving rapidly.

I won't tackle the steering problem for a few more days. Can't be lifting heavy things, nor bending.
 
I'm back. The eye is virtually crystal clear, and there won't be any need for new glasses anytime soon.

AND! Fear of the dreaded DMV is no longer.
Anyway, back to the project. Another setback. While repairing the spindle, I discovered another, oh! me!, oh! my!

It's best to find these things now, instead of in front of a bunch of parade spectators.

I'm surprised by this crack. I took pains to spot-weld reinforcing 'metal' inside and across each joint.
I knew these areas would be subject to extra stress.

But it is what it is, so I'll re-weld, re-paint, re-install, and re-enjoy.
DSCN5849.JPG
 
Do you know what Magnafluxing is? An easy and inexpensive process to check suspected areas in ferrous (steel, cast iron) metals for cracks. You don't need an expensive electromagnet on thinner gauge steel. A larger horseshoe magnet and some iron powder will suffice.
 
How is this one internally constructed, under the paint? knowing how it's made I might have structural suggestions. :)

About magnafluxing
PAPA: Yes, I'm aware of the term, but not so much how it works.
I've looked it up and wonder if this small project warrants it, instead of other means.

Axle welds problem

Changing the drive system

This drive is on the noisy side. I thought that sometime in the future, I might invest time and money in converting to a much quieter drive system. I've contacted a couple of drive belt/sprocket suppliers, but they were no help.

How It's Made
Axle construction.

As I mentioned previously, when I designed this axle, I knew it would require inner bracing.
Here is an original drawing of the axle and how the inner pieces were to be welded in.
Axle fab steps.png
Senior Moment
I have to be honest. I'm having a senior moment...I have no photos showing the bracing being welded in ??????
I see no signs of rosette welds where there should be numerous. Maybe I ground the welds down too well.
OR! I never completed that part of the build. That's not good, :eek:

So far, I've not detected any other signs of weld cracking anywhere else on the axle.
Finding this crack (one side only) warrants a complete removal of all paint and a close examination of all joints.

Possible upgrade
Maybe an ornate bracing added externally. Something that will blend in with the overall theme.
I already have a design in mind. I'll work on that and get back to you.

Original design/construction photos

Measuring for inner braces
DSCN2434.JPG

Supposedly, after all welded.
spindle boxed in.png
 
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Belts are nice but a real challenge to find the sprockets for a reasonable price. Especially the larger sizes.
Even if you just did the first stage coming off the motor, it would make it a lot quieter.
A planetary reduction for the first stage might be another option.
 
Belts are nice but a real challenge to find the sprockets for a reasonable price. Especially the larger sizes.
Even if you just did the first stage coming off the motor, it would make it a lot quieter.
A planetary reduction for the first stage might be another option.
Thanks fechter

I will put together some pics of my current system and gearing data. It may help.
 
Changing the drive system
This drive is on the noisy side. I thought that sometime in the future, I might invest time and money in converting to a much quieter drive system. I've contacted a couple of drive belt/sprocket suppliers, but they were no help.
How large are the sprockets? Small tooth counts are noisier than large counts, because of (I think) the angles the links end up with, or something like that. (some posts about that here somewhere).

Using larger sprockets makes for less noise (and slower chain/sprocket wear).

Belt also makes it quieter, but IIRC is less efificent than chain (dunno by how much) and requires just enough tension to work without stressing the bearings or shafts the sprockets are mounted on, etc. Not impossible, ro even really difficult, but one more step to design in. (adjustable tensioner, or whatever). A large enough sprocket for the torque is also needed so the belt teeth (or surfaces for vbelts) aren't stressed by too little engagement surface.

I don't know if the same setup in belt needs the same minimum diameter as chain for your size chain; you'd have to check the specs for the type of belt you will use.
 
How It's Made
Axle construction.

As I mentioned previously, when I designed this axle, I knew it would require inner bracing.
Here is an original drawing of the axle and how the inner pieces were to be welded in.
View attachment 380000

Looks like it ougth to help, though I don't know if it would have prevented a tear across that stress line.

A weld bead across the inner elbow of the z, that thoroughly penetrates both parts and fills part of that elbow, and is then filed (round rasp, etc) to a curve as gradual as possible, would help remove or at least reduce the stress riser that elbow creates.

Even better would be a continuation tab of both of the two pieces along that face, just like the one left to help cover the curves, so those two flaps would be shaped to overlap and "interlock" at that elbow, and then be welded together along their edges and thru faces to get the ending edges conneced to the faces.

Not sure if this gets it across very well, but:

zbrace.png
where the straight sideways fold on the angled piece gets inserted into the top horizontal brace above it's angled fold, and then the two folds are welded to the other tubing.
Senior Moment
I have to be honest. I'm having a senior moment...I have no photos showing the bracing being welded in ??????
I see no signs of rosette welds where there should be numerous. Maybe I ground the welds down too well.
OR! I never completed that part of the build. That's not good, :eek:

Well, I guess it's possible...I have certainly accidentally skipped steps in various projects over the years, nearly always because one of the dogs distracted me for attention or a medical thing or whatever, sometimes because I was so exhausted I dozed off, etc. :/

In my limited experience, I have been able to tell where a weld was (even when ground and "polished") by oiling the area (it was an accidental spill, not intentional to find the weld, but there was a color change in the welded area vs unwelded, visible only in the direct sunlight outside). I don't know that this will always work, though.

I remember something from an "engineering mistakes" series where they used some acid to lightly etch the surface to show a weld pattern that also exposed flaws in the weld; don't know the details.

So far, I've not detected any other signs of weld cracking anywhere else on the axle.
Finding this crack (one side only) warrants a complete removal of all paint and a close examination of all joints.

Unfortunately, yeah, an inspection would be good to do.

I googled diy magnaflux a while back when I was having some issues with the sb cruiser keel, and saved this tidbit

How it works, is on a smooth surface you sprinkle/blow (use a small turkey baster/ear wax sucker)some particle dust and straddle the magnet across it. If theres a crack it will form a new North/South attraction and the dust will attract to the crack.

Which appears to have worked when tested on known-cracked steel tubing like yours. I didn't find any cracks in the stuff I tested with it, but it should work as some of the test parts were not visible cracks (I just already knew they were broken from distortions in the paint; when the paint was peeled off in that area later I still couldn't see the crack but the magnetic stuff still showed it was there, and when I banged on the part with a hammer right there the crack was very obvious.

I just used angle-grinder leavings for the powder, and some finger-sized magnets with shaped steel backers (that I usually use for holding stuff whiel tack-weldiing shapes) across the suspected crack areas.


A second method given in the same place I found that was
Its been a number of years since I've done crack testing but one of the easier methodes was to use a spray on method. A red liquid was sprayed on a surface and allowed to sit for a while then it was gently wiped off and a white powder spray was applied. The way it worked is that the red liquid was fine enough to hide in the cracks and when you wiped the red off the surface, the applied white powder would soak-up the red showing you where the crack was. I used this method mostly on non-magnetic materials. Like the magnet method all the surfaces have to be really clean.
but I never tried that one out.



Possible upgrade
Maybe an ornate bracing added externally. Something that will blend in with the overall theme.
I already have a design in mind. I'll work on that and get back to you.
Sure--I can't think of anything at the moment (but I don't know for sure all the details you have in mind for the finished appearance / style, while you probably do. :) ) .
 
For belt drive conversion considerations.

Current parameters.

A dual motor/gearing system.

Motor Speed.................................. 4500 RPM
Motor Sprocket ….......................... 9 teeth
Jack-shaft input Sprocket …..... 24 teeth (DIY)
Jack-shaft output Sprocket ….. 11 teeth
Axle shaft Sprocket ….................. 54 teeth
Drive axle and jack-shaft ……… ¾ inch
Tire Height ….................................. 24 inches

This gearing is used to maintain a max speed of 25 mph, to comply with CA DMV NEV vehicle requirements.
However, as I don't have any strong feelings about registering and insuring it for the road, the gearing could be changed.
I expect I may have to alter the gearing. But there is little room for larger gears, as you may see in the photo.
And, this DIY gearing uses self-made 'D' shafts with set screws. Not the best option, but it has held strong so far.

My main purpose is to show, and occasionally parade. When I last checked, I didn't need either of those two requirements to participate in a local parade.

DSCN5294.JPG
 
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I expect I may have to alter the gearing. But there is little room for larger gears, as you may see in the photo.
There appears to be room for significantly higher tooth count gears on both the motor output shaft and the intermediate gear it's chain goes to. As long as the ratio remains the same so will your overall gearing ratio.

There doesnt' appear to be much room on the final gear on the wheel axle shaft, though.
 
Yup, and as AW stated further above, small sprockets are noisier.

The motor sprockets look like 11 or 12 tooth? Guaranteed noisy! Same for the outboard sprockets on the secondary shaft.

Thought this project was for a parade? Parades are noisy by definition. Will folks even be able to hear the sprocket/chain noise?

What about some fake prerecorded engine sounds to mask the sprocket/chain noise? To go with the blingy fake engine up front?
 
Yup, and as AW stated further above, small sprockets are noisier.

The motor sprockets look like 11 or 12 tooth? Guaranteed noisy! Same for the outboard sprockets on the secondary shaft.

Thought this project was for a parade? Parades are noisy by definition. Will folks even be able to hear the sprocket/chain noise?

What about some fake prerecorded engine sounds to mask the sprocket/chain noise? To go with the blingy fake engine up front?

You mean like this. Sept 2021
The sound system is located inside the engine block.
 
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The motor sprockets look like 11 or 12 tooth?
9, according to his gearing list:
Motor Speed.................................. 4500 RPM
Motor Sprocket ….......................... 9 teeth
Jack-shaft input Sprocket …..... 24 teeth (DIY)
Jack-shaft output Sprocket ….. 11 teeth
Axle shaft Sprocket ….................. 54 teeth
 
Ok, after some YouTubing, I have discovered how I can make a weld inside the reverse angle.
So, I gave it a try and it turned out pretty good. It looks like I got good penetration on all four joints.

I extended my welding wire until it touched the metal, my wire speed set to about 33ish on my dial, and gas about 23cfh.
Filed down the top of the weld just enough to give it a concaved appearance, and a layer of JB Weld for added strength.
I will finish off with a minute amount of body filler/putty for cosmetic reasons.

One down, three to go.

Here's how it went.
DSCN5855.JPGDSCN5856.JPG
 
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