Cannot find working phase / hall combination using Stromer motor with Votol em50-4

[5kr3wf4c3]

Hello ES, I have a problem and I’m not sure why.

I have a Stromer hub motor from a st1 thomus model ebike. I am trying to get it going using a Votol em 50-4 controller running with a lithium pack around 30ah at 72 volts nominal. So I opened the hub by unlacing it from rim, pulled cover, and removed the stock built in controller. after running wires through axle I checked and there is no continuity/short from hub to any phase or hall wire. i connect controller and can only get the motor to jerk very harshly forward, or backward as I gave about quarter or less throttle for about half a second. When the wheel stopped throttle wouldn’t work until I hand rotated the wheel a little and then the behaviour repeats. I tried all 36 combinations of phase and hall Sensors following John in cr’s chart I found here. No combo seemed to work, sometimes motor would violently lurch in one direction, or the other, some combos got nothing, some got a tiny jitter followed by a quiet buzzing or static like sound for couple seconds After I release the throttle. I think it came from the motor.? hadn’t had that before or maybe just never heard it..

I don’t know about the motor electrical angl…. Can this be due to a mismatch? Controller is brand new so hopefully not faulty.. checked throttle, motor was working fine stock so no reason to suspect it’s damaged but I will double check halls.

Anybody have an idea?

 

[amberwolf]

The Stromer motors are made by Ultramotor (now TDCM) and they're pretty standard internally, other than the controller puck that you're not using.

If your Votol is an FOC controller, have you setup and tuned it to the specific motor, battery, etc that you're using? If not, it's not going to be able to operate the controller.

I have two similar UM's from A2B bikes that I'm running on versions of the Phaserunner from ebikes.ca, and this thread:

Phaserunner startup issues (v6 and v1, each running an Ultramotor)

So...this is probably going to be complicated, and requires some explanation of the setup, both as it is now where it doesn't work right, and as it was before when it did work fine. So...apologies for the length. I'm very tired after working on this for the last 12+ hours, so I'll probably...

endless-sphere.com

has the autotune numbers for each of those that the PR's detected, which may be useful for comparing to your setup or doing manual configuration.

I've also used an actual ex-Stromer UM on a generic controller as sensorless just fine. I broke one side of it's axle or it'd still be on the SB Cruiser trike, and tested on one of those PR's, and I'd have values for it. It's built the same inside as the A2B versions, so it is the same low number of poles, though the winding may be different so the kV, resistance, and inductance may be different.

Have you verified that the hall sensors are working correctly? Meaning that while hooked up to the controller, and manually turning the motor by hand one "click" at a time, you can see that each sensor transitions from nearly zero volts to nearly 5v, or vice-versa. If any of them does not transition this way, and is "stuck" at some value, either it isn't getting pullup voltage from the controller (when you see them stuck on, at near zero volts) or isn't turning on (when you see them stuck near 5v).

 

[5kr3wf4c3]

I actually have not tuned the controller , as I didnt get one of those usb programming cables. That actually may be it then? I ran an votol em100 before without any setup from computer but I guess because it was a qsmotor it didn’t trip out? I will verify halls, but unless I damaged one when removing controller they all worked fine before… I’m thinking as you mentioned the software could be the issue because I tried to plug and play. I’m not sure if I have an FOC controller, I see it being advertised as one but maybe it’s simulated? No idea actually.. Could I make My own programming cable if I connect the programming wires to a usb which I cut and splice into ? Rx to Rx and tx to tx? or how would I go about this?

also your stromer motors were 120 degrees? hoping mine is not 60 and that is the issue… this I have no idea how to tell..

thanks for your help

 

[amberwolf]

I actually have not tuned the controller , as I didnt get one of those usb programming cables. That actually may be it then? I ran an votol em100 before without any setup from computer but I guess because it was a qsmotor it didn’t trip out? I will verify halls, but unless I damaged one when removing controller they all worked fine before… I’m thinking as you mentioned the software could be the issue because I tried to plug and play. I’m not sure if I have an FOC controller, I see it being advertised as one but maybe it’s simulated?

If the Votol site or it's manual says it's FOC, then that's probably what it is, and it has to be setup for each motor, battery, etc that is used with it, or it doens't know how to operate the motor.

If it was previously setup for a different motor (did it come as part of a kit?) then it will only operate the same motor version and type without being re-setup for a new one.

No idea actually.. Could I make My own programming cable if I connect the programming wires to a usb which I cut and splice into ? Rx to Rx and tx to tx? or how would I go about this?

You'd need to know which pins are which on the Votol controller end, and then use a compatible type of USB-serial cable wired between your computer's USB port and the controller's serial port, and install the drivers for the USB-serial cable in your computer per the cable's directions.

There are several types of serial; the manual should say which one it uses, but it's probably RS232 of some type, but there are 5v, 3.3v, and ohter voltage levels used, so you have to check the manual for which voltage it uses at the controller pins before you connect one.

also your stromer motors were 120 degrees? hoping mine is not 60 and that is the issue… this I have no idea how to tell..

All the UMs I have are 120; almost all ebike hubmotors are. 60s are very uncommon. But an FOC controller won't care; it should just detect which hall pattern it gets and figure out how to use the signals it gets to correclty drive the motor, when it's autotuning it. If it doesn't have that ability, you have to tell it which one it's connected to, and possibly even figure out the right phase/hall wiring combination to use...but I don't imagine any FOC controller made these days would require that--it should be able to figure it out itself. Even Kelly controllers can usually manage that.


When you test the halls and note down their switching pattern, the 60 pattern is different from the 120. There's a number of pages out there that explain the differneces in various ways, some here on ES and plenty elsewhere; some are in this search

60 vs 120 halls - Google Search

Mostly for 60 hall motors they just flip the center hall over vs the other two, but some use a different actual sensor that just uses the opposite output response from the other two for the same magnetic field.

 

[5kr3wf4c3]

If the Votol site or it's manual says it's FOC, then that's probably what it is, and it has to be setup for each motor, battery, etc that is used with it, or it doens't know how to operate the motor.

If it was previously setup for a different motor (did it come as part of a kit?) then it will only operate the same motor version and type without being re-setup for a new one.


You'd need to know which pins are which on the Votol controller end, and then use a compatible type of USB-serial cable wired between your computer's USB port and the controller's serial port, and install the drivers for the USB-serial cable in your computer per the cable's directions.

There are several types of serial; the manual should say which one it uses, but it's probably RS232 of some type, but there are 5v, 3.3v, and ohter voltage levels used, so you have to check the manual for which voltage it uses at the controller pins before you connect one.



All the UMs I have are 120; almost all ebike hubmotors are. 60s are very uncommon. But an FOC controller won't care; it should just detect which hall pattern it gets and figure out how to use the signals it gets to correclty drive the motor, when it's autotuning it. If it doesn't have that ability, you have to tell it which one it's connected to, and possibly even figure out the right phase/hall wiring combination to use...but I don't imagine any FOC controller made these days would require that--it should be able to figure it out itself. Even Kelly controllers can usually manage that.


When you test the halls and note down their switching pattern, the 60 pattern is different from the 120. There's a number of pages out there that explain the differneces in various ways, some here on ES and plenty elsewhere; some are in this search

60 vs 120 halls - Google Search

Mostly for 60 hall motors they just flip the center hall over vs the other two, but some use a different actual sensor that just uses the opposite output response from the other two for the same magnetic field.

hey I appreciate your time, I’ll try setting up / programming controller then - thanks for the help!

 

[5kr3wf4c3]

Does anyone have any experience with syncing a votol em40 to a geared hub? I cannot find any info about the motor either. It's the stock motor from an emmo oxe.

So I quickly found out that even a low amp controller like the em50 can make my geared hub run insanely fast at only 48v using flux weakening. No load seems to rival my 96v setup and sabvoton 9680 gearless hub. Which is strange to me. Maybe I'm strange or clueless idk.

I have tried probably 25 or so out of 36 combinations. And for each of those I changed the hall angle on the votol settings all the way from -180 degrees to 180 in 20, degree, and sometimes 30 degree increments. For each of those I also clicked the exchange 2 halls, then exchange 2 phase, then exchange both halls and phase before moving on to next increment.

I found many combinations that spin the motor but they're noisy. Also whenever flux weakening engages, the motor starts to sound like it's going to rip itself apart. Scratchy, shaky, and unpleasant vibrations at certain rpms, as I slowly increase throttle. I don't trust the rpms because I guessed the magnet pole pair count.

The votol settings are also seemingly sabotaged by the creators from China to damage the mental well being of westerners. The manuals too. Changing the second field of the flux weakening value in sport mode alters how the motor resonates with the controller it seems, and seems that the highest safe value I found that relates to my model, 1500 , usually gets me least pulsating as I start to roll, and then smoothies out when I pick up speed but gets extremely noisy at top rpms. Like a hiss.

Am I right to think I should stop being a lazy prick and try the other remaining combinations of halls and phases? Maybe a nudge in the right direction will be enough for me even... Or just go all out and tell me I'm about to blow up my motor and battery and end up a smoking crater. Please, let it rip- my feelings are irrelevant. I know I'm ducking something up somewhere.

 

[glennb]

One thing at a time; get the motor running properly before tinkering.

Votol’s aren’t difficult. Just disable everything. Every port, every checkbox. Do not enable flux weakening. You want a power switch and a throttle to start with, nothing more.

Only exception is the swap blue/yellow phase checkbox, there seems to be a bug whereby physically swapping them doesn’t work but doing it in software via the checkbox yields the desired outcome, so you might want to test that.