Cooling fans inside Hub motors

Artur said:
It's not about melting copper, but about magnets.. You dont want to overheat them. :cry:
Yeah, I think we get that.
The question is...if your magnets are guaranteed not to be at risk of overheating...how hot could you go?

Or more importantly at what temp does the winding varnish melt or otherwise burn off?

Cheers
 
The way my cooling works fresh air is being circulated through the stator magnet gap constantly. This should prevent the magnets from getting hot while the fan is running.

This should allow me to push higher temps more safely.

What is also nice is that the cromotor I am using I thought was totally gone but was able to fix it. So in a way I don't mind experimenting and beating on it.

I also must have heated those magnets as high as 150c as I melted the epoxy when the motor was sealed. So I already did any damage to the magnets so it doesn't matter much if I actually heat them up again to that temp as I heard once heated to a certain temp the damage is permanent up to that temp and you can't do any more damage unless you exceed that temp.
 
longwise_suck said:
so surely keep the copper cool, keep the magnets cool?
Yeah pretty much. Since the copper itself is the only real source of heat, if you remove or prevent that heat the magnets wont see it.

Also, I was slightly incorrect above...it's not about the melting temp of the copper, but the melting/burning temp of the varnish insulation applied to the copper that matters. We will never reach a temp that can melt copper, so that's not something we need to worry about.
The 2 main heat problems for failure I see are the Magnets, as mentioned, and the copper varnish insulation. I don't know at what temp the insulation starts to degrade, does anyone know this?

Cheers
 
Offroader said:
Now that my EDF cooling has run flawlessly since I had it installed it is time to make it better now that the winter is here and riding is getting too cold.

1) I'm going to add some heatsinks to the center of stator to get heat quicker out of the stator. I plan on using some of the EDF air to flow through the heat sinks.

With these modifications, and especially the heat sinks to the inside of the stator I think that cooling could be like over 2x maybe 3x better. Tests are showing the stator takes in lots of the heat quickly from the windings, so adding heatsinks with forced air through them should greatly push the heat out of the stator and out of the motor.

I figure the heatsinks, which I bought already, could make the stator have like 5x-10x more surface area. This will greatly help shed the heat into the air and push it out of the motor.

I've really been thinking about adding internal heat sinks to mine. I have it open right now with some ideas sketched out. How were you planning on mounting the heat sinks? I was thinking about making some to fit against the inner circumference. Here's kinda the heat sink shape I was thinking about (blue on the right), two red dots are holes for mounting one to each side. They will bolt together with some upward pressure when installing:


After drawing that up, I thought, what about drilling some holes in the stator support itself. It would be super easy to do. That's the red holes on the left.
 
Routybouty, if you can find and figure out a way to mount heat-sinks that shape to the inside of a hub motor it will benefit almost all cooling approaches.

Please do keep us informed of anything you discover. :)

Cheers
 
sendler2112 said:
A 6mm hole through 6mm material creates twice as much surface area as it takes away.

Cool! Haha, GET IT? :lol:.

Cowardlyduck said:
Routybouty, if you can find and figure out a way to mount heat-sinks that shape to the inside of a hub motor it will benefit almost all cooling approaches.

Please do keep us informed of anything you discover. :)

Cheers

My plan is to run the idea past the mechanicals at work tomorrow and see if it's mill-able. I think it's a fairly easy shape. The only hard part is, at least on my QS, the circumference is tapered slightly. So getting the mounting area to sit flush will be fun.
 
I actually never got around to doing mine yet. Probably going to do it as soon as the cold winter months start here because it will be to cold to ride.

What my plan is and I have no idea how it will work. I plan on cutting these heat sinks into smaller heat sinks to fit against the inside of the stator.

You are probably asking how will they fit the curve of the inside of the stator. Well, once they are cut down, I will cut slots in the back of the heat sink every 3-5mm, this will allow it to bend into the circle.

I could even easily mill down the bottom of heat sink to make it thinner and easier to cut, no reason to have a thick bottom as I am looking for surface area and not thermal mass.

I already bought some thermal epoxy which supposedly bonds aluminum heat sinks almost permanently.

HOpe this is understandable. The way I see it is that as long as I get a decent amount of contact area it should transfer most of the heat, doesn't need to be 100% efficient like a CPU.

I like the heat sinks I posted the link because the fins are very long to give maximum surface area. I can also bend the thin fins easily to adjust to being bent into the circle.

directing the airflow through these fins will be important. Knowing that the stator takes in a tremendous amount of heat this should easily pass that heat into these fins. With airflow going through these fins it should cool the motor so much better.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/150x69x37mm-Heatsink-Aluminum-Heat-Sink-Heat-Sink-for-LED-Power-Transistor-/281199490524?hash=item4178cbb5dc:g:IJsAAMXQWzNSc6rr

100_6081_500x393.jpg
 
Cowardlyduck, do you think this Ferro Fluid makes our fan setups obsolete?

Why bother having the motor open and all the complexity of fans when you can just use a little FF fluid.
 
Offroader said:
Cowardlyduck, do you think this Ferro Fluid makes our fan setups obsolete?

Why bother having the motor open and all the complexity of fans when you can just use a little FF fluid.
Yeah, pretty much.

It's great that we found a solution for a while, but compared to FF it appears cooling fans aren't quite as practical.

I also didn't update this thread yet, but the 12 fans inside my Leaf motor died the other week. I hadn't posted about it yet as I haven't bothered to open up the motor yet as it still runs fine...just a lot hotter without the fans.
I think what killed them was the higher voltage I was pushing them with. I could hear them going crazy for a while soon before they died and I've been running them off my 52V (nominal) 16S LiFeP04 battery which pushes them at 8.7V each. They are only rated up to 7.4V, so I guess that means the rating on them is accurate.

Anyway, now I'm not sure what I should do...Ferro Fluid is clearly the better option, but I have 6+ spare fans, and 2 motors with holes in the side covers near the windings. I'm contemplating adding FF anyway...but I have a feeling it would fling out the holes...then get really dirty, then stop being effective.

The other (more sensible) option is I just replace the broken fans and continue using the Leaf motor as is. Any future hub motor's I get will definitely remain sealed, with FF added.

Cheers
 
Yes running these fan systems are trouble until you get things just right. It took me 6x failures before I got my EDF system running flawlessly. Luckily all my failures happened in the first week and since then I've not had any trouble.

Honestly, I find it hard to believe that FF fluid can match my EDF fan mod for off-road riding. When my EDF fan is on my motor pushes out a lot of hot air all around the outside of the motor. That would take some serious wattage to produce all that heat it pushes out.

The other thing is I can also push my motor to much hotter temps I believe because the magnets are protected from the fresh air circulating the motor.

But all this may not be enough to want to deal with a fan setup, because most of the ride I don't keep the fans on and the FF could be cooling the motor down.

I actually have two Cromotors and I'm going to put the FF in my other one to do some comparisons. May have to wait for the warmer weather.

Cowardlyduck, I would tape up those motor holes and try out the FF fluid so we have a comparison. Maybe the fans offer some advantages.
 
Some good points there Offroader.
Yes, I think fans could still be more effective than Ferro Fluid, however there are 4 main drawbacks of Fans compared to FF I can think of:
1 - Complexity.
2 - Power usage.
3 - Noise
4 - Dirt/Dust ingress.

The only real disadvantage of FF is the heating of the magnets, but with some heatsinks on the backside of the magnet ring this can easily be reduced.

I like the idea, but I don't think tape would hold for long covering the holes with an oil splashing on it, but worth a try nonetheless.
In Justins experiments he had the Ferro Fluid leak just from not sealing the side covers, so I don't think much of it's going to stay in a hub with holes right near the windings.
I think holes further in towards the axle would still work though, and I recall seeing someone has already done that successfully.

Cheers
 
I would think if you tape the outside and silicone the inside of the holes, also allowing the silicone to touch the aluminum it would work as a permanent solution. But I was just thinking of something quick for you to try out the FF. I'd like to see how it compares to your old fan setup.
 
So I opened up the Leaf motor to investigate what had gone wrong with the fans. I've done about 1000km on this motor since the fans were added.
Dirt/dust build up isn't too bad considering the conditions I've been riding in lately:

DSC_2733.jpg

DSC_2737.jpg


Unfortunately though it looks like the fans really didn't like the extra voltage I was feeding them. 6 of them are completely dead, and the other 6 only spin at half speed or slower which I think means they are only working off 1 of the 2 phases these fans run on. So all 12 are effectively dead. :(
DSC_2743.jpg

DSC_2742.jpg


I have another 7 fans spare. I will wire them all in series and try again. The extra fan in series (as opposed to 2X 6 in series last time) should absorb that little bit of extra voltage and mean they don't die from the voltage this time. :)

I will drill some extra holes in the freewheel side cover as I don't think it had enough last time.
I'm also going to add some Ferro Fluid to this motor. I'll silicone the side covers to the stator ring since that point is right next to the magnets, but I'm going to leave the motor vented and see how it goes. :?
I've done the same to my HS4080 with 7 fans and FF added, and so far it's been ok although the FF doesn't seem to be making much difference.

Cheers
 
Artur said:
Have you posted any pictures? I probobly missed it.
Of the air cooled/fans setup, yes and yes...not sure how you missed it.

With the Ferro Fluid added no pictures as yet...not sure how to show it really. I added the FF using the syringe it came in through the side cover holes and I could see it was wicked straight to the magnets as I did it.
I'm hoping I don't have to reopen these motor's for a long time, although I might open the HS4080 as it seems the KTY84 temp probe (for my Adaptto) isn't connected after I last assembled it...I still have my NTC-10K sensor working for my separate temp display, so really that's enough and I might not bother opening it just to fix the KTY84. We'll see.

Artur, you might want to read through this thread from the start...lots of good info and pictures if you do. :)

Cheers
 
Artur said:
This is why I wanted to share this video where you actually can see how it's acting :wink: Did you notice the big difference in temperature by using it? And where can you buy it?
I see.
It sounds like you may not be aware of the lengthy discussion and testing on Ferro Fluid done over in this thread:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=48753

Justin started by modelling and testing air cooling from different drilled side covers, then moved on to extensive testing of different types and amounts of Ferro Fluid. The Ferro Fluid discussion start's from page 26:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=48753&start=625

Justin/Ebikes.ca have now arrived at the point of now being able to sell it as an 'Experimental' offering:
http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/experimental/statorade.html
statorade_1.jpg


I suggest reading up on it first, but by all means grab some and give it a go. It seems to be working well for many.

Cheers
 
I took the Fighter with the HS4080 on it for a spin today.

0 issues with the Ferro Fluid, cooling fan combo so far. Cooling performance was improved from the FF but not by a huge amount. It was a slower ride so not much air flow over the motor which I think is needed for the FF to really shine.

Cheers
 
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